Do our youth Wrestlers know wrestling?

I came across a very interesting thread on themat.com


http://www.thematforums.com/myforum/?show_topic=48928&forum_id=6


What do you think, are our kids developing sound skills?

This has been a sore subject for me for many years. Headlocks, snakes, bulldogs, cement mixers, cow-catchers and many other moves should not be taught, in my opinion, until the 7th grade. Early success from these moves retard a wrestlers growth. They fall into habits that are near impossible to correct. My son has been wrestling for 5 years and we are just now touching on some of these moves. The main reason we are working on them is to stay out of them.

It's difficult. If I'm coaching a 10 year old at state, and he's down 5 points with 15 seconds to go, I want him to know how to run a headlock. If I'm coaching a ten year old who is pinning novices in the first period with a headlock, then that's not good. It's also difficult to define what is acceptable. For example, a ten year old leg rider. Not really junk and is still okay in high school, should that be discouraged, or taught to run properly? The focus should be fundamentals for sure, but different kids are ready for different things at different ages.

If the kid is ready I think leg riding should be taught, it is fundalmentally sound in my opinion and is used at all levels. I also agree being down by 5 points, the headlock is useful. Too many kids use it because they can't do anything else. At the novice championships I had a wrestler who had been taught the snake by his brother. After using it the first two matches, for his first and only move, he came up to me wanting me to tell him how well he was doing. I simply told him I would be more impressed with his wrestling if he was actually wrestling. I don't think he threw another snake the remainder of the tournament. If one of my wrestlers throws one of these junk moves in a match, I let them know how disappointed I am. I usually respond, "your too good of a wrestler to use that crap."

I am disheartened by the amount of coaches with the "win now" approach. What many coaches and parents don't realize is that kid's wrestling is nothing more than preparation, and bad habits developed now will permeate their entire career. As a teacher I know that an average 10 year old doesn't have the reasoning ability to know why a headlock should only be used at the end of the match. In my opinion, the worst thing that could happen when you're down 5 is throwing your opponent to his back. That only ingrains the thought, "hey, why waste time with these silly shots that are only worth 2 when I can throw a headlock that's worth 5?" The best thing that could happen in that situation is you lose the match and work on what caused you to be down by 5 points in the first place.

Tell Jeremy Long-4X high school state champ and Tristen Deshazer- 4X high school state champ that. Technique is good across the board work on all aspects but capitalize off your strengths.

You are delusional if you think that you can teach the average high school wrestler to headlock like Tristen or Jeremy. They were definitely anomalies--not the norm.

While I agree that there are exceptions and you should capitalize off of your strengths, you should also teach high-percentage, low-risk moves to your young wrestlers. In high school the headlock is a 50-50 move at best.

Great posts!!! I tell my kids you live and die by the headlock! We do not encourage using it except for a last resort. One of my wrestlers used it 3 times in one tourney won all 3 with it but feel he didn't better himself or his true skills. I have taught a few of the other moves due to the fact the some moves work better for different kinds of kids depending on their skills. But feel you need to master the basics (stand-ups, sitouts, hand control,etc.) before alternative moves are added. "You need to walk before you can run."

There's a reason you don't see Jap-wizzer arm throws in high school. They don't work consistently. Again, there is a time and a place for certain moves, but to say that "technique is good across the board" is a ludicrous statement.

thats why I have a rule in practice no headlocks from the standing position. I want to teach our kids good hip movement all the time. That to me is more important than the headlock and all those other moves. Anyone else have any ideas how to break a kid of a headlock let me know. Even though my son has that rule in practice I still see him trying to take the easy way out in the tournaments.

Here's my suggestion: if he throws a headlock in practice, say something to the effect of, "That's great that you can throw a headlock. Now that we know you can headlock Billy, let's have you spend the rest of the practice wrestling with Butch, who's a few years more experienced and a few pounds heavier. See if you can throw the headlock on him."

we try that to. he gets to wrestle little and big spex. he still goes back to the headlock. he is getting better at not trying it i will give him that much.

I figured the first thing you'd show was how to ride legs!!!

Alright ... I was trying to get a nap in between rounds but couldn't stop thinking about certain things!

Once in a while, I see a competitor in our younger divisions whom I would call, a "technician!" The "wrestlers" that win the majority of matches are the kids who are gifted athletes and have the brawlability (spellcheck does not like that word) gene. These two traits are tough to beat even for a true "technician."

Occasionally, even at the high school level, I witness a great brawler, win matches. But more often than not, I see a good kid with tremendous technique winning matches.

But my big concern, one I have been expressing at my most recent clinics, is we are progressing kids through the wrestling ranks that don't have a basic skill set. At the end of every match, one kids gets his or her hand raised. Is the "winner" the one who displayed superior technical skills?

Every club in USAW-Kansas should have a set of goals or a statement of objectives. In the language of those if we are not including "skill development" I think we are missing the boat! Plus we should be "feeder programs" for our high school teams!

A problem I have (and others I have talked to) is that we send a bunch of kids on the high school coach without fundamental skills. Or perhaps worse than a lack of skills, we send kids on that have tons of bad habits!

Some of you may recall my rants before and remember that we were trying to gather a list of fundamentals. Let's get back at the list!!

i will not teach my son legs until later if at all. I was ok with them but I want him to be his own wrestler. We have another coach that teaches legs as well. I have been working the farmers half though.

Bockman, everytime he throws a head lock make him do 30 push-ups, 30 sit-ups, and 30 sprawls. This counts for matches too. He will either get tired of doing the extra work, or be one cut little kid.

hey I think I will try that. He is pretty cut but a little skinny. He wrestles in the same weight that christian robinson wrestles. so you have proabably seen him wrestle. Hopefully I can break him of this sooner the better.

thats great stuff Beeson

what are some moves that shouldnt be done like the top five dumbest moves haha

Top 5 worst moves for a kids wrestler:

5. cement mixer/mikey b/snake/whatever you want to call it
4. headlock
3. that dumb front headlock where you roll across your own back
2. headlock
1. reaching back

Okay, I am going to get into some trouble here, but here goes, I think the Headlock gets a bum rap. It isn't that it is such a bad move, it is how and when to use it. The same could be said for a number of other moves. I can give examples of 3 kids, right off the bat, who has done very well with the headlock and they all started using it in kids.

#1 Tristen DeShazer, The kid can hit one from anyplace
#2 Atticus Disney, I don't care what anyone says, you see it coming, you know it is there, and you still can't stop it.
#3 a new comer, Dylan Penka. I have heard people tell this kid to quit throwing it, yet he still wins matches with it. Frankly with the results he is getting, I think he will do fine.

The key is to have another tool in the box, don't rely just on the headlock, just as you don't rely on any single move. Well then again, maybe someone should have told Cael Sanderson there is a takedown other than the ankle pick. Which leads me to this thought, learn a few moves, from various positions and in varying situations, and learn them well.

Well said, Mike. As I said earlier, there are always exceptions to the rule, but the idea should be to have it be a supplementary move at a young age rather than a crutch.

We have a rule with our son and daughter, you cannot throw the headlock from the standing position. We consider throwing the headlock from the standing position a cop out. It's an easy way to win, but the wrestler does not get any better. Of course there is one exception, when they are down by points in the 3rd period, then my husband (the coach) will tell them to throw it. He always tells them that if they can find it on the ground that's okay, but DO NOT throw it from the standing position unless told to.

I agree

I know this is gonna sound odd, but my son looks forward to his nightly sit-ups and push-ups before bed, to the extent that if he acts up during the day I threaten to NOT let him do them before bed. How many of you dads can say you have caught your kid "sneaking" to get in 20 sit-ups or push-ups....lol. It's crazy, but I love it and I don't want to start using them as a punishment, however I am staring the headlock problem square in the face with Kolton. He had it used on him rather firmly his first yr and almost caused him to quit. I had to address it in practice to teach him the counters. I tell him the same thing "live AND die by the headlock". If I had a quarter for every time I tell him shoot the legs, I could pay for John Smiths OSU camp.

If anyone can suggest some take downs that seem to be easier to grasp or drills that have helped break a habit headlocker, I would try them. Thanks

As a former high school coach, I don't think I spent much time with the head lock in the practice room. I know that we had to show it from time to time for defensive reasons. I never taught it as a primary move. We did work on the bulldog/snake quite a bit because it was a great backup to our front headlock shucks and drags. It also fit nicely with our favorite pinning combination. If we lost the combo the opponent usually faced us and fell right into it. Our teams always enjoyed a fair amount of success.

With all that said, I wrestled in a program that spent 15 - 20 minutes a day on the headlock. As a coach, wrestling in the room, I will pull a headlock from just about anywhere on the mat. I have coached some great wrestlers that should be able to beat me at will and I can usually catch the kid in a headlock to finish the match or turn it into my favor. I may throw one from my feet once in a great while.

The head lock is not a bad move. In fact I love head locks, side head locks, lateral drops, sweet rolls, and front head locks. If you have a knack for them, I say perfect them. You don't have to drill and practice them regulary. Drill your high crotches, singles, doubles, and sweeps. They are great. Drill your setups because they are so essential. But if you have the opportunity to end a match in a seconds notice, why miss the opportunity.

I've coached kids who lived and died by the headlock. It was their primary and in most cases it was their only move. I set rules on when and where they could throw them. If I ever saw them reach for one, they would owe me pushups immediately after the match, win or lose. However, if I saw a great setup a few attempts at a shot and the kid worked into a perfect headlock situation, I encouraged him with a "HIT IT, IT'S there. What are you waiting for."

The funny thing about this entire post is the dislike for junk moves. But it really comes down to coaching. What are you coaching in the room. If you are teaching your kids a reliable set of setups, takedowns, etc. and you are making the kids use them in practice, they should develope a good foundation. The finish move is just another tool in the chest. You have to stress the whens and wheres to use it. If you celebrate the victory with your young wrestler with high fives and great jobs, then they are rewarded twice, with the victory and your approval. If one of my kids won a match after they reached on a "junk move," I would shake their hand pat them on the back and say nice job. I would also include a "man you got lucky on that one! or that would never work on a great wrestler. I think you owe me twenty push ups, because your going to need the extra strength to make that work against _____________ (insert your #1 ranked wrestler here)." However, if he hit it on a great set up or pulled one out of his butt to win a match that he probably should have lost; then, I might end it with a "great job! Holy crap, I can't believe that just worked! or great finish."

While watching the 321 A semifinals yesterday, I saw a few bulldogs/snakes, 1 sweet roll, 1 side headlock and a headlock. I also saw one kid continually reach for a headlock time and time again. It failed and he lost his chance at a state championship because he couldn't get the right situation or setup. I know this young kid will become better with his "move" and he has a great coach that will add some tools to his chest. I'm certain that I will see him hit a headlock in the state finals sometime in the next three years.

On a final note, my 6-year old has wrestled for a year now and he doesn't know what a headlock or a bulldog is. He has been working on a great low single. His stance is low and his shot is quick and deep. For a guy who didn't shoot much, I love seeing him work on it. The problem: he's finished it only a couple of times in the room and in competition. I know that some day he'll get it. I know that someday he'll win more than one match during the past two seasons. But it's been really hard to live with the tears of disappointment when his technique doesn't work. Maybe it's time to teach my kid the headlock and the bulldog, because I think he needs a few extra tools in his chest.

Very nicely put, matside. Thanks

Here's the bottom line don't go looking for the head, but if it stareing you in the face you better throw it. All wrestlers I'm sure are taught fundamentals that doesn't mean they use them. The ones who cry about the bulldog, snake what ever it's called are probably the ones getting stuck on there backs on saturdays. I love a good shooter but sometimes you need a trick or two up your sleeve.

... another great discussion!

I have only one thing to say my son wrestled same kid 3x and lost this year but at state he went out headthrow him to his back stuck him and went on to place in my book headthrow rule

NOW I'm convinced, Jake will learn the headthrow. I'm not sure he is ready for such an advanced move, but we will definately work on the headthrow.

I couldn't agree more with these top five dumb moves especially reaching back. It is a dreadful habit that the youngest have great success with, and keep doing it because of that success; it took me a couple of years with each of my sons to finnaly break that habit, along with the help of other wrestlers that made them see the light. However, I do see a seperate form of wrestling that creeps in on sound fundamentals of folkstyle, that beeing the freestyle, where you see and often encourage some of the moves we don't like in folkstyle. I don't know! can a kid get the best of both worlds and look for all options? What is a whole wrestler, and what should they be doing to prepare for a colligiant run. Basics are the bread and butter, suprise when you need it, sure helps against a familiar foe.

With our recent discussions on Novice moves, I thought I would bring this thread back!

That Jaguar fellow sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Definitely a guy who's got his priorities straight. I'd be happy to have my son wrestle for him. I'd also be willing to bet that he's exceptionally good looking. And he's definitely not me prior to forgetting my password and creating a new account.

we teach the throws, and snakes, laterals etc., but only after a wrestler can demonstrate the basics in a match. i have seen it and it is a hard fall when a wrestler gets to jr. high and really has no skill, and are getting beat by those wrestlers he used to just throw around. i understand the deshazer, and penka headlock thing. i have coached jordan brown for years, believe me he can make that trick work. it can't be the only trick in your bag, though. a wrestler who learns the basics first, and works for his/her early success will have a much longer and more successful career than those who "muscle" their way to easy/ early victories. ryne cokely is a great example of a wrestler who learned to "wrestle" first and "win" second, he will "win" for years to come, and have a much longer career than some of those you learned to "win" by throwing that snake/headlock, those one move wonders.

That dumb front headlock is a twister, generally used as one of the top 5 frestyle wrestling moves.It can be applied to folkstyle if taught the correct way. How can you put headlock on your list? Every novice kid should be taught a headlock. Maybey you meant standing headlock throw.Also running a snake doesn't mean you have to pin the guy with the snake. There are many coaches that use a snake as a set up move for inside cradles and many other take down moves. Whenever I go to local tournaments I frequently see kids miss use the snake (or bulldog) and the kid tries to turn and pin there opponent with these moves. They get beat when other kids know how to isolate the arms and use there opponents weight to bring them off the mat into a standing position. The kids that uses these moves to punish there opponents and set up other moves are very successful with front hooks and snakes. These kids know what to look for when they have front hooks in and they take advantage of there opponents mistakes. To say a move is bad is up to the individual. I keep an open mind when it comes to wrestling and there are moves I see kids do that drive me nuts, but I always go back to the wrestling room and see how I can apply those moves in a more positive way. Set ups and doing moves in sequence ( drilling what your opponent wil do next) I believe are the keys to molding a good wrestler. Show your kids how to run a snake (have them be physical with the move) and once there opponents hips hit the mat they will try to get up with there legs, once this happens have them snag a leg and step over the side and behind, boom you have a take down. this can also be affective for an inside cradle. Everyone knows that a snake is an easy move to master so showing kids set ups from that move can be very easy also.In the end I by no means approve of useing muscle moves to pin kids and I believe that technique is the way to go, but as a set up move it's a good one to teach. Look for the positive in all these moves, there might be something there that you didn't notice. By the way # 1 on your list is a big no no (lol). HAVE FUN WRESTLING AND KEEP ON KEEPIN ON, I'M OUT.