Define Novice

I have a tournament that Im considering because of its location and date.

The Form says "Novice wrestlers follow kansas kids guidelines"

what does that mean?

My son is rated a C wrestler by the coach. 6 and under
He wrestled one tourney at the age of 4. finished 1st
One Tourney at 5. finished Last
He wrestled 3 tourneys last year. 3rd (twice) and 4th
We have had one so far this year. finished 2nd

His record is 9-12 (approx)
I just dont want to sign up and drive 2 hours and not quailify.

If he is rated a "C" I would not consider him a novice. This is also his 4th year of wrestling and he is in the 8U division. Not many drive 2 hours for novice tournaments. Without seeing him wrestle, I would say he is no longer a novice. Too many people try to justify why there child should still be novice by getting others to say it is ok. Do him a favor and keep him out of the novice ranks. His wrestling will improve dramatically in the open division. I personally think there should not be a novice division under the age of 8.

He is in the 6 and under division.
I work Saturday's and the Sunday Tourneys are often Novice.
He went to one last year and got 3rd.

I just wanted someone to define "Novice wrestlers follow kansas kids guidelines" that's all. I looked all over the website and can not find it. I emailed the Contact and they said "no state qualifiers"

His first season was 3 weeks then our tourney. He was 4 and that was enough for us.
His second season was 3 weeks as well.(got sick)
Last year he did wrestle 3 tourneys.
We are on week 3 of this year.

Believe me... Im not hoping you will say he is a novice. I just want someone to define it.

Yes, Im am searching for Open Tourneys too. There are alot of people that think my son isnt novice. I still think he is but..

3 weeks practice and a tourney at age 4
3 weeks practice and a tourney at age 5
9 weeks practice and and 4 tourneys age 6
3 weeks practice and a tourney at age 7

7 Tourneys and about a .350 win %

His birthdate is sept 14th 2002 he is still 6 and under at the age of 7.

Its just hard to believe that 3 weeks of practice and a tourney equals 3 months of practice and 14 tourneys.(like some kids actually wrestle) I guess it still counts as a year expierence.

It is one of those things. If you win a novice tournement someone will always assume your not a novice. Just email the Contact and get things strait before you travel.

I too agree that there should not really be a novice... 6u kids are All novice, most have wrestled no more than 2 years and some have just started.. There is not much difference in competition for 98% of the 6u kids out there, yes there are a few that are studs, but that is the minority..

He will only improve by wrestling better competition week in and week out.....

There are not any official guidelines. Rule of thumb is if they have wrestled more than 2 years, it is time to wrestle open. I don't believe it does any kid any good to wrestle novice.

i think that novice tourneys help out those 12u/14u kids who have never wrestled before. it helps them get mat time with equal abilities. otherwise the brackets are usually big enough at open tourneys that most kids have a chance to wrestle others with their same experience. after 2 years, practice or tournaments, its time to wrestle opens.

thought I would get back on this topic today as I took 2 first year kids from our club to the derby novice championships today. we have one kid that pinned all of his kids and noticed some coaches shaking their heads and saying there is no way that kid is novice. Well this kid is a first year kid. he is our only novice kid that is over the age of 6 and practices against some state and national placers everyday in practice. I dont know what some of you think we should be teaching novice but just because a kid runs different moves and pins kids with those moves doesnt mean he isnt still a novice wrestler. this kid is getting better and better every week and wouldnt doubt he does well later on this year. this kid has natural ability and will be very good someday due to his work ethic but still makes novice mistakes. Just wanted to clear that up with those coaches shaking their heads today. Im sure he wasnt the only kid that was questioned today. Thats just the way it goes.

Good judgement should be used by the coaches and parents. I have had kids 1st year win 3 novice tournaments and I ask them and their parents to consider entering lower level open tournaments.
At that point they do not need to move up - but they will only get as good as the competition they are wrestling. I have a couple of kids in their 3rd and 4th year who never won a match or just finally place 3rd or 4th in a novice and have a couple of wins under their belts. Doesn't mean they are not progressing - it just means it may take them a little longer to develop. General rule of thumb - 2 years of novice and then move up in the 3rd year.

It is always the same, the problem with a novice definition starts with the number of years a kid has been wrestling. As I have said, it should have nothing to do with the amount of time, but rather the abilities of the kid in question.

i agree with sportsfan about time, but as smokeycabin said, the competition might hamper progression.

either way i see it, if you win a couple of novice tournaments it's time to step up.

those "novice" mistakes, wouldn't he have made those in an open bracket too. not trying to start a big debate here.

when a parent asks me i tell them "general rule"/ what we TRY to stick to is, two years/ two first place finishes, then wrestle open.

we have run into the same problem, a 6u has wrestled for 3 years now, (i know, i know), he can't place in a true open, yet always gets 1st at novice tourneys. we told his mom, that our stance as a club, was to protect the reputation of the club, and that he would have to wrestle open.

Our rule of thumb is after two years you wrestle open. You might check with the tournament. There was one novice tournament that took only first year kids and another that took kids with three years. Jjust be smart if your kid has the natural ability wrestle him in opens.

he has wrestled back and forth all season long. has placed in a couple smaller opens but also had small brackets. I think he will probably wrestle open from here on out so I guess using Derby as a measuring tool was good for us.

My opinion is if your kid is rarely seeing a victory or a medal at open tournaments, let them go to a novice tournament (1st year or 4th year). If they win a novice or place top 3, this does just as much for that kid's confidence as anything. This is such a mental sport and sometimes all these kids need is to see a little success to give them the boost they need to raise the level of their wrestling to compete week in and week out at open tournaments. If my son was a C wrestler and had an A wrestler the first round of every tournament (cause nobody wants to rate their kid a D), getting pinned in the first 20 seconds isn't helping him either. That's not really mat time.

fair enough.

Going to novice tourneys and going to the "Novice Championships" are two different things IMO. That was a large tourney of 1st year only kids, so it is good for a kid to gauge his improvement against other first year kids. I think that is the intent of that particular tourney.

thanks doug. I think thats what we got out of taking him there. that was my first time going to that tournament and it was fun. Crazy but fun. My 5 year old had a blast. Just wish I would have paid better attention and saw that they were giving up to 6th place. we left after my son lost his 2nd match to get in for 3rd and 4th. he was mad that he didnt get a medal. then i check the results and see his name for 6th place. lol. told him this morning he got 6th and he asks well do I get a medal.

You weren't the only one that did that Scott. I received your email and will get your son his medal asap. For those that were at Derby on Sunday, I just wanted to say thank you. I hope everyone got home early enough to be able to see the Super Bowl kickoff. (hopefully those that drove a long way were able to get home before the nasty stuff hit the roads) I know after cleaning up and packing things away I was home on my couch before 5:00 with plenty of time to watch some pre-game festivities and such.

We had one group that did go a little long and had to wrestle with little rest in between matches, but when you have a 64 man bracket you are going to have that sort of thing. And for those that went out the backside of that bracket and placed 3rd through 6th they had up to 9 matches. This was true for those kids coming out of the backside of the 3 32 man brackets that were all around the same weight classes.
6U - 40, 43, 46, and 49 lbs

Congrats to all.

Sincerely,

Craig Gash
Derby Wrestling Club
Tournament Director

The council I give the parents and kids in our club on Novice is to start there and when the kids begins to consistently be successful 1st/2nd 4-5 times in a row move up to open B brackets and begin the process again. When you can repeat this consistency in the B brackets move up to the A brackets and begin again. Repeat this process at each level and if you are among the lucky few to still be 1st/2nd all the time and have run out of levels congratulations, you are probably now among the elite of your state or the nation. I agree that it is more about coaches and parents exercising good judgement in the development of their wrestlers and moving them when it will progress their development properly and less about a set timeline for every kid. We need to do what is best for the kids and that does not always line up cleanly with keeping a steady flow of medals and brackets flowing to the bedroom wall. Beesons right, they have plenty of friends, what many have in short supply are parents and coaches willing to make the touch calls that are best for them and stick to them.

IMO.
If you have kid in novice who places 1st. in more than 3 tournaments, then he or she should go open, for the remainder of the year. A true novice should be a 1st. or 2nd year wrestler who doesn't place at any other tournament BUT novice! If your wrestler starts placing in open brackets then they should be in open tournaments.

Where Ks. has the biggest problem is too many brackets per age and weight group for an open division. Keep it simple 2 brackets, "A" "B" "C" in one and "D" in the other. You have to start some where.

How many kids try for state who are 1st or 2nd year wrestlers?

Not many unless you weigh 40, 43 ,46, 49, or similar due to not many 8u weigh these weights. Novice is too hard to judge, some should be, and others are in it for the hardware. If you place every week at novice then IMO you need to move into the open division, take your lumps and move on, it will only make you better.

I've always been under the impression NOVICE meant 1st or 2nd year wrestler...... If your son has been wrestling for 4 years i would think he is no longer NOVICE

i personally think they should do away with the novice division. im sure it has a place in the sport in some peoples eyes but it doesnt in mine. if you want your kid to be a wolf, throw him in with the wolves and he may take his lickings a bit but he will come out a wrestler if he sticks with it. novice wrestling was set up along time ago before there was a 6 and under division. and you had 5-6 yr old kids wrestling eight and under. now that there is a 6 and under division they should have deleted novice wrestling. you only get better wrestling good kids, why would you want to wrestle below average competition?

When my son started wrestling he was 7. I preached on Sundays. Being together at church was important. So his first tournament ever was at Emporia Tournament of Champions. Wow! He got clobbered hard. We went three weeks later to a smaller tournament near Lansing. He won a match! But he also go beat by a girl. He came off the mat and shook his head and said, "She was a lot tougher than my sisters!"

He practiced at Olathe South Kids Club and went to one more open in Ottawa. He won a match and went 1-2.



Here is the kicker: He didn't know anything about Novice Tournaments until several years later! He just liked wrestling.

He is a senior now, placed at state last year and making another run this year. He still likes wrestling.

This past Sunday the Kids Executive Council met and we have formed a committee to study the issue of Novice Wrestlers and Novice Tournaments. The committee will be made up of folks from all four districts. If you want to volunteer for this committee please contact you district director ASAP. If you have suggestions please forward them to the directors or my self.

My hope is the committee can bring suggestions to the Executive Council next fall.

Ned Price
Kansas Kids Executive Director

I feel some more state mandates for our invitationals coming.

Yeah, we should probably do away with Novice Division. While we are at it, why not cut the high school JV programs too. After all, you gotta wrestle varsity to get better. No sense in developing any young wrestlers. Let's get rid of all middle school sports too. If they can't hang with the high schoolers, so be it. No more Little League either.

yea right lets go ahead and get rid of novice and there goes derby's kansas novice championship tournament which is one of the best run and best tournaments for 1st year novice kids. and no i am not from derby.

keep novice but use it like it is meant for novice kids.

No one is saying cut "NOVICE" out all together. But parents and coaches have to relize potential. If your kid continues to place in every novice tourney, then they need to try an open; above a "D" wrestler to see how they can fair.

Too many parents don't want their kids to get beat by an advanced wrestler, but until you try it how will you know.

IMO
In larger clubs kids say "I took 1st." Now what bracket where you in in? Open or "C" "D" it makes a difference.

At some point all "novice" need to try an open, just to give them an idea of how tough this sport really is. If they fair well then it should not be an issue.

Novice tournaments are for kids that can't compete at the open level. I don't care if they have wrestled two years, or many more than that. My oldest son wrestled three years from 8-10. He won four matches (all in novice tournaments) in those three years. I asked him to give it one more year after his second, thinking since he would be at the older end of the U10 and wrestling in his third year, that he might finally have some success. He just didn't have a mean bone in his body, and we (I) figured out that wrestling just wasn't his sport. Some kids will put it together, the light will come on for them, and some will not. If I would have thrown him in with the sharks his third year, he probably wouldn't have finished the season. Novice has a place in this sport. It is not for the kids that are succeeding, it is for the kids that have to find out if the sport is for them.

By the way, I left something out. My second son should not have been wrestling novice in his third year. He had early success wrestling at six and seven. I am guilty of having him wrestle a third year of novice when he should have been wrestling open. My wife and I did not have the money to be traveling to two tournaments a weekend back in those days. I really thought (hoped) my oldest son could make it in the sport, so we (my wife and I) kept my second son in the novice tournaments. When novice was done that year, I entered my second son in three open tournaments and had him wrestle at Subs. He finished 5th at Subs, and has had a pretty good career since then. I guess what I am saying is, that if you (or your coaches) know anything about wrestling, you will know when your son/daughter is ready to wrestle open.

The guys yelling do away with novice,are not thinking.Some kids it takes longer to under stand how things work.It also matter how much they get help.Some people have lives that do not work around the mat.So in turn the kids do not get the same time spent on the mat as a coaches kid.

Any one that stands at mat side can see it all the time.8 year olds doing high school moves.

You need some where for the new kids to learn how to do the moves in real time.To put them strate in with the good kids is nuts.

One more alibi. My third son (if you are keeping track, that is three out of four), is wrestling his second year. I could have sworn that he was the second coming of his older (second son) brother. They are almost identical twins from eight years apart. They look alike, they are built alike, and at times they have the same stubborn attitude (from their mother). Unfortunately, at this point, he does not have a mean bone in his body either (much like our first son). He has not had a lot of success in novice tournaments at this point. If he wants to wrestle next year, he will be in his third year of wrestling novice (still U6). Again, the point I am making is, if your wrestler can't compete at the open level, then they should wrestle novice. If there is no novice, many of these kids will not make it past a couple of years.

every kid is different. maturity comes at different times, with that comes strength, aggression, work ethic, etc., all at different times.

the worst thing to do in anything, wrestling, school, swimming lessons, life, and so on, is to get too comfortable.

you have to CHALLENGE your kids, PUSH them to succeed some how. teach them that small victories are still victories. don't let them be afraid to lose, teach them how to take a loss, and to put in the work to change it.

small victories no matter how insignificant are still victories.
i he/she gets pinned every match, teach them to fight to stay off their back and to fight off their back. challenge them and if they don't get pinned, yet get beat 15-0, treat it like their state championship. let them realize their potential, and see that their hard work has paid off.

the biggest problem with novice tournaments/ divisions is parents want to PROTECT their young. they are trying to protect their psyche. the second biggest problem is the shear opportunity of novice tournaments, the number has probably tripled in the last 10 years. it used to be you found 2 or 3 every year to attend, now there is one every weekend.

When I started wrestling back in '73 at the age of eight, from my knowledge, there was no such thing as a novice tournament. I spent most of my first two years getting throttled (maybe 5-6 tournaments each year). My parents didn't push me into the sport (might have been an older brother that did), and they both worked so much I don't think they came to many of my tournaments when I was wrestling on the Kids' circuit. I managed to continue wrestling all the way through high school and had a decent career. Wrestling was a sport for me, but the reality is, I can't make it be a sport for all my kids (although I have tried).

There is a place for novice tournaments in wrestling. The biggest problem is kids wrestling novice that should be wrestling open. From a previous post by me last night, I admit being one of those parents/coaches that kept one of my sons in novice too long. The other two that have wrestled, well, they may not wrestle in an open tournament because they may not be the type of kids that have what it takes to be wrestlers. That is what I have come to understand. Wrestling is not for everyone, and if was easy, a lot more kids would be doing it.

No one wants to get rid of Novice, but it is being abused. In my opinion there should be no Novice in the 6U division. They are all Novice, there may be one or two kids that really know what is going on, but everyone else is Novice. I can understand Novice in 8U, 10U and 12U. Most kids that are going out for wrestling at the 14U division are doing it because they think they will do well, or they are pretty athletic. I'm not sure these kids need a Novice division either.

What we need is some guidelines to help coaches explain to the parents that, "little Johnny does not meet the criterea for a Novice anymore, it is time to wrestle in the open division." Parents that are trying to "protect their kids until they are ready" are not doing the kid any good. Parents that are out "Trophy Hunting" are not doing the kid or anybody else's kid any good. I think some guidlines would help Tournament Directors, coaches, and parents. I don't think that the State is wanting to rule with an iron fist, but make guidlines so that if it is being abused, someone can step in.

I think we can see here and from all past threads on this subject that none of us can agree on what the term novice means. I do not believe it involves the number of years wrestled but rather the abilities of the individual wrestler. Others would say that it only applies to a first or second year wrestler. The amount of variables makes it impossible to come up with a definition that will please all, and more importantly work for the kids who really need a novice division.
If I am correct in my thinking on being unable to come up with a workable definition then why would we have the state body mandate what the term novice means? We can see that the small sampling of members on this board (most of whom don't attend the meetings), can't agree, then how could a much larger group? If you don't like a particular club's definition of novice then simply do not attend their tournament.
The one thing we know for sure is, regardless of who comes up with a definition of novice, the state body or an individual club, it will always be abused by someone. So I say, keep the state out of the business of the individual club's invitationals as much as possible.

This debate has gone on for years and years. I do believe that the Novice tournamnets are abused to some degree. Why doesen't
Kansas USA adopt a rule such as 1st year only (experiance)
qualifies a novice? USA Card # sould be used to separate the 1st year wrestlers from the others. It's simple to me. If a 2nd year wrestler can't win they need to get better same as in llfe. Ultimatly, isen't that what you are wrestling for- life lessons and to be able to compete at the H.S. level?

Ok! so tell me this, this is my sons second year wrestling. He took to wrestling like fish in water. We went to the seneca missouri tournamet as our wvery first tournamemt. He placed second outta five. So what you are saying is that a kid that is just thatr determined as a first year wrestler that places at an open tournament, is automatically an open wrestler?

I do not agree with getting rid of novice. actually, i wish there were more novice tourneys. my director says once they start placing 1st in 1 or 2 tournaments, its time to keep them in open. But then you have kids who never win a match in 2 yrs. what do you do with that. novice is for 1st and 2nd year kids. i took 1 of my kids out. he got to the point where he just went out and took his loss. it didnt matter anymore. and i was tired of spending money on a kid who really didnt want to wrestle. he was just going through the motions. my other kid doesnt wrestle novice anymore. Cause not like a fish in water but its time to start stepping up. my next move for him is wrestling up from 10 and under to 12 and under. he will probably get throttled for awhile but he will be fine in the long run.

If I am tracking what you are saying, your son, in his second year, went to an open tournament and finished second out of five. There is not enough information on how well he competed in novice last year and what other results he has had this year in open or novice to determine whether your son should be wrestling open or novice. My guess is, and it is just a guess, that he should probably be wrestling open. The thing you should do is check with his coach(s) and ask for their input. They should have a pretty good idea where he should be wrestling.

A kid won't compete at the high school level if they quit the sport at an early age. If a 2nd year wrestler can't win they need to get better? No kidding. Does that mean that they need to jump in with the sharks when they are still wrestling like a minnow (sorry, but the fish thing came up earlier so I just went with it)? I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it seems to me that novice is for kids that aren't ready to compete at the open level, and haven't shown that they are very competitive at the novice level no matter how many years they have wrestled. Eventually, they will either make it to the majors or they will call it good and move on to something else.

in order to have state mandated "novice" wrestlers, each and every tournament would have to post the restults. someone would have to be assigned to monitor those results, and someone else would need to be in charge of communicating which wrestlers qualify as novice, and so on.

seriously i agree with sportsfan again, no one will ever completely agree here, and certainly too much involved in putting the state in charge. COACHES STEP IN, if the kid isn't novice, TELL THE PARENTS. if the kid needs to be pushed TELL THE PARENTS. if the kid needs some confidence TELL THE PARENTS. COMMUNICATE, GET INVOLVED WITH SIGN UPS, DO NOT ALLOW TROPHY HUNTING, PROTECT YOUR CLUBS REPUTATION, NOT THE CHILDS PSYCHE.

there is no such thing as a novice little league baseball league. you wouldn't dream of keeping your kid in pre-school for a couple of years, just because school it tough. if they are having trouble in math, you sit down and work at it, same thing with reading (well if you are not you should), there is no excuse for not working at wrestling.

encourage your kids to do their exercises at HOME- push ups, sit ups, shoot walks, penetration steps, stand ups, sit outs, etc. the benefits will be tremendous.

Well you are correct, last year we went to state! So we havent wrestled any novice tournaments except for Tulsa National novice tournament! Wrestling just came to him naturally!

You hit the nail right on the head HEADSUP ! Just wish people would take it into thier clubs to figure the "NOVICE" thing out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i really hate to extend this any more, but i have to get something off my chest.

i will start by stating my stance on novice so you know how i feel then i will give and example as to why i feel the way i do.

**6u- are 95% novice- most are just figuring out how to use their bodies- we don't need a 6u novice division.
**8u- novice is ok here to get some mat time, but don't get comfortable, challenge these kids to simply hustle and be aggressive, and to master 1 or 2 moves from each position- 8u matches are won mainly on athletic ability and aggression
**10u novice is better here for confidence than anything- let's them know that they are not alone- there are still many wrestlers who have not matured or learned enough to capture open medals, but it's ok keep trying NO ONE REMEMBERS WHO THE 2X 10U CHAMPS WERE- many have 6 more years before their bodies mature, IT WILL COME.
**12u do not baby the 12u age- be very careful not to give them a false sense of security- things only get tougher for a teenager, teach them to see their weeknesses for what they are, and challenge them to improve.
**14u novice is the worst thing to do to a wrestler-if they just started, they need to know that there is a big gap to fill, and the only way to close the gap is to work hard and push themselves, losing is not the end of the world. coming out at 14 isn't the end of the world- high school and college coaches like these kids because they don't have many bad habits that so many develop at a young age.

SORRY TO GO ON SO LONG- HERE'S MY FINAL POINTS
i saw a 14u "novice" wrestler hit a leg cradle this weekend. it's not as difficult to hit as you might think, BUT there is no reason for a wrestler to learn such a move/ let alone use it while they are still wrestling "NOVICE".

do away with 6u and 14u as a state, the last 2 novice tourneys i went to had between 400 and 600 wrestlers. seriously, we are PROTECTING these kids too much!!!