6a and 5a venues next year...

Any truth that they are being split up?

2...is one of the venues Lee Arena on the Washburn Campus?

I really hope that they aren't splitting them up, it's already split up enough in my opinion.

In talking with a rep from KSHSAA at the 4A tourney, 5 and 6 A will split next year unless a facility large enough could have been found very quickly. I assume that is now the case. 4A will stay in Salina and 321A will stay in Hays.

This weekend I spoke to several collegiate coaches. They tell me that our separate tournaments make a terribly difficult to recruit in Kansas!

Their suggestion is to go to a 3-day tourney and get all classifications at one site!

Sounds like the issue that was discussed earlier. A question for those who know. Is Bramlege in Manhattan large enough for 5-6A? 4, 5, & 6A? I think it holds around 16-18k but am not sure of the floor space available for mats. Thanks in advance.

No it is not… there is only enough floor space for 3 full size mats. The other problem with Bramlege is timing… there is no way that KSU will relinquish that right to their building on any given day during the basket ball season. With the women’s and men’s programs winding down their seasons they need the floor space to accommodate these teams first. Now if this was planed out way in advance then something might be able to be worked out with scheduling. I just know that they were not very receptive to a deal at the end of February with Ahern let alone Bramlege.

Bramlage seats around 13,340, but there is not nearly enough floor space.

Randy how dare you bring this up, after all we all know there are many who have never spoken to college coaches and all of them know that coaches don't care about our state tournament. Or something like that. Of course some of us are hoping and praying that this will be possible in Wichita with the new arena or at the very least someplace in state. I would also prefer having the finals in each class as a individual event.

(Please note sarcasm above.)

ATTENTION:

It is official that all classes will be combined into one state tournament at a single site. Where is this site you may ask? Well look no further than my living room in Manhattan. We can fit one mat, so the tournament should only take a few weeks. Also due to limited room for spectators, a lottery will be held to decide on which 20 people will get to watch. Coaches, there probably won't be enough room for you guys in the corner, so you'll have to shout directions to your wrestlers from the front yard.

College Coaches do come to state tournaments and 4 locations in one state is crazy. This allows the college coaches to meet parents, HS coaches and watch other kids they may not see at national tournaments. Not all parents and HS coaches travel to spring and summer national tournaments. I would say more parents attend their childs High School State vs Fargo, Fila, Cadet & Junior Duals, etc. Trust me college coaches like to meet the parents. Additionally, parents want a chance to discuss a few things with coaches. Splitting up the locations of the different classes is bad for our sport. We should have 2 locations maximum not 4. My vote is Salina & Hayes - but nobody asked me to vote.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Wrestling

or your loser neighbors' basement.

Hold it at that bar in Clay Center I was at this weekend that mixes Mountain Dew and Crown Royal.

Swayz that would be any bar, you just have to order it that way... Jeez

SCOOTERS...that's the name of the place...but be forewarned...the gals there are in the old UNLIMITED weight class.

So you had a good time then?

You know it. Seriously though they can hold it anywhere, but as long as it isn't in a High School Gym...I'm cool with it. Most coaches I've talked with like the openess of a larger type venue so they can hide in the shuffle, and see how kids perform more in a bigger stage setting.

How dare you mention Crown Royal and Mt. Dew in the same breath! You talk about a seeing grown man CRY! That is blasphemy! On the rocks only! Man Rule #537

AMEN!! Man Rule #537

To get back on topic here...

If you'd ever spend the time and TALK to Bowden or Musselman, they'd be the first one to tell you they'd prefer a one site state or even "go back" to the 2 site state. Rick's always told me, "As long as FHSU has a wrestling program, we will have a state tourney there to support their wrestling program! It's a no-brainer!" That appears to be the 1-2-3A State, with no end in sight...

What to do with the others, 4-5-6A. The Ks. Coliseum is a joke: it's getting old, the management's whole goal is to rape, pillage and plunder whatever they can from attendees, so they can try to keep a sinking ship afloat.
Wichita/Sedgwick Co. is looking to build a new arena (15,000 seat capacity), but they haven't even broke ground and there's a referendum (recall) movement now in the works!

So, where do you put 4-5-6A and keep them together?

The Expo Center – Topeka, Ks:
Large enough for all three classes, there’s just one problem: the Shriner’s Circus has that baby locked in for countless years, the same weekend as our state tourney. (Could always move the date of state up or back a week???)

The Bi-Center – Salina, Ks:
They do an excellent job of hosting the 4A state tourney! But it can only fit 1 class, and I've been there these past two years. Eight mats would be a tight fit and I don't know if two classes could fit in there. Besides 4A has fallen in love and Salina will fight like heck to keep it there!

KSU’s Bramlege:
From what I’ve seen, the seating is fixed, doesn’t collapse in, to accommodate more than 3 mats, like a traditional gym.

KSU’s Ahern:
From what I can put together in my mind, when I’ve been there for indoor track, you’ve got the same situation as the Bi-Center. Might be able to get 8 mats down, but enough seating for two classes?

KU’s Allen Field House:
KU Pumpkin ballers would rather burn that to the ground before letting mats be carried in and placed on that coveted floor. Yet, there’s room for maybe 8 mats, if the seating folds in???

Washburn U – Topeka, Emporia State, Pitt State, even WSU’s Koke Arena:
All too small to accommodate all three classes, even just two.

The Kansas Coliseum had a good thing going, just a run-down facility and wrong approach on how to hold the event – poof focus. From what Musselman shared with us officials at the 4A state tourney. The only option is to have 4 sites and it looked as if 5A would be hosted at Hutchison and 6A would be at Olathe NW, in their new facility. Goddard was in the mix.

It really is quite interesting when you take the time and sit down with “the powers that be” and see what all they’ve looked at and their whole thought process into making their “snap decisions” or “what’s best for KSHSAA and not the kids/parents/schools/college coaches…”

I've got an idea...why not have it at arrowhead stadium, that field can probably hold like 12-15 mats on it. And the seating capcity in that place is huge.
Or we could go someplace else out of state where there actually is a big enough space, since Kansas obviously can't provide that space.

Bicentennial Seating
Specifications
Permanent Seating - 5,225
Side Riser Seating - 840
End Riser Seating - 468
Temp Floor Seating - 1,050
Total Seating - 7,583
Various Events
Concert (end stage) - 6,795
Concert-in-the-round - 6,815
Basketball - 6,533
Circus - 5,225
Ice Show (60'x120') - 4,957
Banquets - 1,360

Topeka Expo Center Seating
Landon Arena

Venue Specifications
22,400 square feet
111'x221'
71' ceiling
10,000 seating capacity
One 800 amp power source
One 400 amp power source
13'9" H x 13'2" W drive-in entrance
Utility Floor Pockets (limited)
State-of-the-art Sound System
State-of-the-art Lighting
Computerized Climate Control
Computerized fire & burglary system
CCTV Security
110 10' x 10' booth capacity on floor



Britt Brown Arena
51,000 total sq. ft. of exhibit area:
Main Arena: 36,500 sq.ft. (146’ x 250’)
East Exhibit Area: 6,500 sq.ft. (50’ x 130’)
West Exhibit Area: 7,250 sq. ft.(50’ x 145’)

Special Features

Seating 6,300 – 12,000 (depending on show)
Concrete floor with permanently installed ice rink
4800 sq. ft. of portable staging
One 1200 – amp and two 400-amp single or 3-phase 120/208 volt available stage power
Stockpile of dirt for rodeos, truck pull, etc.
Two (2) enclosed walkways to Pavilion I
Convenient electrical, water and phone outlets for exhibitors
Twelve (12)concession stands
200-seat meeting room
Eight (8) dressing rooms/show management office
Catering options available
Three (3) large door entrances (largest 40’ wide by 13’8” high)
One (1) 30’ loading dock with two (2) dock doors (8’ wide by 10’ high)
Fully heated and air conditioned
Complete sound and paging system
Metal halide and quartz lighting
Eight (8) strong Xenon “Super Trooper” spotlights
Outdoor display pads adjacent to building
20 public restrooms

It won't hold three classes regardless.

Three Days - Split sessions/classes until they get down to medal rounds and then run back together. Start 1A,2A,3A & 4A in the morning on Thursday run 5A & 6A in the afternoon on Thursday, Friday same thing and then medal matches all together on Saturday or use the same format morning and afternoon.

Ft. Hays
Gross Memorial Coliseum is celebrating its 32nd year during the 2004-05 season. The 6,814-seat arena was finished in August of 1973 at a cost of seven million dollars. The Tigers made the move across campus from Sheridan Coliseum which seated 2,000. Paul “Busch” Gross is the namesake of the Coliseum. Gross coached basketball at FHSU from 1930 to 1946 and totaled 150 wins and 88 losses in 14 seasons.


Emporia State

Home Court ...........................................................................William L. White Auditorium
Capacity....................................................................................................................5,000

Pittsburg State

John Lance Arena
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
John Lance Arena is a 6,500 seat multi-purpose arena in Pittsburg, Kansas. It was built in 1971. It is the home of the Pittsburg State University Gorillas basketball teams.

OK, there smokey, you've got me. With all your stats that you've copied and pasted (ala a Richard move) you've single-handed uncovered the entire conspiracy that KSHSAA has been trying to sell the people of the Great State of Kansas!!!

What's your point?

OK Shane,

Another one of my cut and paste. Smokey - Sean McCarthy
Splitting up the tounaments into 4 locations is a Bad Joke.

Eleanor Roosevelt
“Stand up and be counted,” Eleanor counseled, “even when it makes one unpopular.” Or as she put it in one of her memoirs, “Surely, in the light of history, it is more intelligent to hope rather than to fear, to try rather than not to try. For one thing we know beyond all doubt: nothing has ever been achieved by the person who says ‘It can’t be done.’”

I'm not saying that 4 sites is a positive or good thing. I just keep reading all this stuff about negative this and negative that. I've asked Bowden and Musselman what they've considered/looked into. They just get frustrated that most critics out there think they don't care about the athletes and how they seem to have their own agendas and such. They've looked into it all! Don't you think they'd rather have just two locales? Look at what it does as far as KSHSAA $$ and manpower!

Kansas just doesn't have a facility, not ever Kemper can hold all 6 classes. People just need to understand that facility just doesn't exist!

3-day tourney? Have critics take their ideas to the respective HS coach and they take it to their KWCA rep and then have the KWCA present it to the KSHSAA Exec. Board! After all, Bowden doesn't really do anything without the consent/direction of the Exec. Board anyway!

That's how you create change. Not jumping on some forum without putting your name to it and gripe!

Olathe NW is a very nice and large school gym. We had 2005-2006 Sunflower League there. It should NOT be the site for 6A State. How is State held in a school gym different than any other regular season tournament? I think the wrestlers who make it to State deserve an arena environment, anything else is a disappointment. Surely in the cities that serve most of the 6A schools, a suitable arena venue can be found to house 6A State.

I like the pushing state back a week idea only if one of two things happen:

1) more competition points given to allow at least 2 more duals or 1 regular tournament in the schedule (no 2day or dual tournaments)

2.) Allow for a middle week between regionals (also wrestle the 5/6 place match at regionals with no scoring team wise) and state that way if people are injured or so they can heal...if they aren't healed by the Wednesday morning the week of state give the guy that finished 5th a call to come join as a a wildcard.

Aaron:

How dare you come to my home town and not call - LOL!! What were you doing at Scooters? Next time, try Low Places - great food but no mixed drinks, just beer!!

Leanna

I totally agree with you on that reasoning, but I'm not sure about the "KC Metro Area", but Topeka and Wichita do not have any facilities that are either large enough (WSU's Koch Arena) or available (Expo Center).

Leanna....technically aren't you from Green?! LOL...ok I'll have to get your number next time and buy you a drink in town. Heck we should have a Kansas Wrestling Oldtimer's Bar Hop Party!

I think I've been to Low Places for my poker run.

That's how you create change. Not jumping on some forum without putting your name to it and gripe! Sean McCarthy - smokeycabin
STA Kids Club I wasn't griping I was making suggestions. You'll know when I start griping. I get Grumpy.

This is the official KSHSAA High School Forum. The last time I checked on the High School section I was sent to the USAWKS High School Forum immediately to make suggestions in the Suggestion Box.

Rick's always told me, "As long as FHSU has a wrestling program, we will have a state tourney there to support their wrestling program! It's a no-brainer!" That appears to be the 1-2-3A State, with no end in sight...

Suggestion Box: That is kind of closed minded. What about Newman and the Community Colleges. I know their venues are to small but they also need the support of KSHSAA.

To get back on topic here...

If you'd ever spend the time and TALK to Bowden or Musselman,
I am not on a first name basis with Rick or Mr. Bowden and Mr. Musselman. I am sure you'll pass on the message and or suggestions. I am sure they read these forums to get ideas or maybe somewhere in the chain of command a HS Coach or AD can follow proper procedure to get the message acrossed to the Excutive Board so they can tell so an so that 4 seperate locations is Crazy. Not a very cost effective use of KSHSAA resources. A nightmare for fans and recruiters to attend. Heaven only knows there could be fewer officals needed. Just kidding - but I'll bet that is one of the biggest expenses of a State Tournament. I am almost positive on that one. When we run tournaments it is our biggest expense.

smokeycabin = Sean McCarthy

That's pretty funny you went there.

There are approximately 1,624 matches for all classes during the state tournament. 1,624 / 40 (refs) = 40 (approx) matches per ref or less than 3 duals. Take that same number of matches and divided it by 30. 1,624/30 = 54 (approx) matches per ref. Or take 1,624/20 = 80 (approx) matches per ref (6 duals over 2 days). Or that is the equivalent of 40 matches per day per ref.


There are approximately 896 wrestlers in all 4 classes.
There are approximately 1,624 matches for all classes during the state tournaments that are currectly held. Using 6 mats there would be 271 matches per mat. Over 4 days that is 67.7 matches per mat per day. If the 4 classes are split(in to 2 classes) and seperated into 2 venues - well I'll let you do the math. Answering your questions above.

What's the square root of that?

I just got a brain freeze and I'm not eating anything cold.

Are you figuring two refs per match like is the norm now? I wish coaches would ask KSHSAA to discontinue this policy. I don't think it makes the officiating any better and might make it worse on average.

Smokey Cabin I think it boils down to having to miss another day of school and make weight for a 3rd day in a row, something the KSHSAA doesn't want.

Which would you want if you were a state finalist? All eyes on your mat or sharing it with 4 other classes going on at once, seems to tarnish it to me.

This is a really interesting discussion. After having coached the State tournament at Hays, at Wichita and in Des Moines, I just had a couple of observations:

1 — Hays was fun. It just was. We were treated like kings by the FHSU staff, and the community as a whole. It was fun to be the only game in town. Because of that, 4As going to Salina and the splitting the 5As and 6As has merit, just from that standpoint. Kansas is unique in the fact that while the state does not have a centrally (or somewhat centrally) located arena with 12,000 or seats that would be readily available, it has a wealth of very nice smaller arenas (Hays, Salina, Hutch, Emporia) that would be great sites. I always thought that Hutch would be a great wrestling venue. So yes, there is a lot of validity to splitting the classes.

2 — Multi-classed tournaments are fun too, but you have to have the right facility, run the right way with enough mats and seating. Also, for a three-class tournament to work the right way — with the arenas available — you would need to go to three days, and I just don't see KSHSAA going for that. We did three for almost 30 years in Iowa, and recently went to four. That's just a long week.

3 — Whatever happens, as someone pointed out earlier, my experience with KSHSAA when I was down there was that they are very focused on doing what's best for the kids and what the coaches and schools want. So any changes they make will be done with those things in mind.

It may or may not tarnish it for some wrestlers, but I do remember as a fan at the 456a tournament that if one match was slow or "boring" I could watch another final.

I've wrestled in the Bicentennial center, and the colesium. I thought that the Bicentennial was much better. I thought the colesium was great, but there wasnt too much emphasis put on the finals. This year the finals for 4a were the most exciting ones ive seen all throught high school. That was because all the focus was on the only match in the areana. When you have multiple classes in one arena, i feel that not everyone is focussed on the match in their class. I think it would be great if 5&6a found an areana together again, but i liked 4a in salina. Why are 5&6a trying to find a new venue?

5 and 6a are trying to find a new venue partially because of the renovation project of the facility down there.

4a finals this year although also in Salina last year were probably more better in the sophomore season because of the learning curve of hosting it in year 1. The spotlight was a great touch and don't forget when the local teams have success you are going to have more butts in the chairs. Last year Clay Center had 0 in the finals and Abilene 1. This year you had a healthy mix of local schools with talent spread throughout.

I believe in a single venue, with a 3 day tournament, each class could easily have their own final and many, like myself, would be there to watch all four classes. Something that is totally impossible now. I know another taboo subject, and will likely never happen, but if looking at a Thursday weigh in, Start wrestling Thursday night, and then wrestle Thursday, Friday, and then finals on Saturday, it would be possible. I know a lot of teams could do that as they already miss school to arrive the day before in some cases for the tournament. The other thing, really taboo, is a Sunday option, but I won't mention that option for the fear of getting some folks too upset.

Shane,

That response is over the top. Sean is fully invested in the growth of our Kansas kids. Nobody ever suggested that Bowden and Musselman don't care. He is just laying out the possibilities for the wrestling community. It was great to see the seating capacity and features for each of the venues. Sean didn't "jump" on the forum and "gripe". Your post however, included both of those verbs and an adjective called "unstable".

- Eric Johnson

The real solution is to combine 4A,5A,and 6A. Less medals (maybe then the KSHSAA could afford something that is respectalbe), less wrestlers, less hotel rooms required, etc. Two state champs per weight class in a state with only 2.7M folks seems adequate when compared to other states. As far as talking to Bowden, Musselman, etc. they just keep saying they are doing what the member schools want them to do. Your guess is good as mine as to how you really instigate change. I am sure this isn't the place but it is enjoyable to read all of the data and opinions. As it stands today we have too many kids competing in 5A and 6A state. There is consistently a significant percentage of competitors with losing records and the quality of wrestling from top to bottom isn't as good as it should be. At the very least they should be combined. Smokey, keep up the good work!

If you combined 4a, 5a, and 6a you would have 128 of the most populated schools in one division and 64 less populated schools in the other. Real solution?

Let's just combine 5&6A so the qualifying process is the same as the other classes...

How many 321A schools field a wrestling team?

Enough to require 16 man brackets at regionals, the rare exceptions you will have a 8 man, even in 4A you will rarely get a 8 man regional.

I would like to see one State tournament and not 2 or 3. We should have one legitimate state champ. Having 2, 3, or 4 waters down the prestige of the title. This would solve the problem of coaches recruiting, there would be no more questions about a possible Grand State, and I doubt that there would anymore losing records at state. One tournament should solve the problem of a venue and cut the operation cost for KSHSAA. Qualify the top 32 wrestlers per weight class instead of 64 and medal the top 8 or 10 kids. Granted, 32 man brackets would take longer to wrestle out, but I think it would only take maybe a day longer. I also think this would elevate the prestige of the sport in Kansas.
Again, as I said in an earlier post if California can do it so can we.

I say you have one sight with one bracket for each weight. Take the 16- 123a, 16- 4a, 16- 5a, and 16- 6a guys from each weight and wrestle one 64 man bracket except have each classification have their own seperate awards. Then after the awards for each quarter of the 64 man bracket are awarded finish wrestling out the tournament in the 64 man style. This would allow for each classification to have one state champ and for there to also be a grand state champion. You can also keep team points for each classification and for grand state also.

Why not keep the classes as they are, take the top four placers from 321A,4A,5A and 6A put them in a sixteen man bracket and crown a single state champ.

tbau,

As it has been stated many many times on this forum, KSHSAA will not do another "Grand State" like you propose, for time and money reasons.

Also as Shane said KSHSAA is committed to allowing 3A to host a state tournament as long as they want it.

I agree with Will on this one. I really wish they would combine all the classes into 1. We should have 4 "super regionals" which geographically split the state into four regions much like USAWKS does. I don't really care what the logistics of the split is. Each super regional will have 8 man brackets top 4 from each super qualifies for State.

Each Super Region would qualify 4 from two regionals held the week before Super Regional week. I know a lot of schools would not like that because that is the week that many host their league or city tournaments. To this I say they can either get rid of the league tournament OR they can shorten their regular season by one less tournament. I know when I wrestled we went to some pretty weak tournaments that I wouldn't have minded missing. Keep in mind with this plan the total season length remains the same. And in effect you get a little tougher schedule because you add one tournament (regional) that will have some decent competition. I don't really like the idea of 8 man brackets at super regional but its either that or host 4 regionals in each super region, and that may not be possible because some areas in western Kansas don't have 32 teams to compete in this 4 regular regions.

Anyway this is assuming that all classes want to compete for 1 state champion and would require FHSU to give up their tournament which they won't do. It is in effect much like the California system.

i really dont see the time problem for a grand state. why not just move regionals and state up a week if they didnt want to go later in the season. a lot of states including missouri already have state that week. also i think grand state would potentially make money. i dont know, maybe KSHSAA wont do a grand state for whatever reasons and it may not be feasible. i won't claim to be the one with the most knowledge on the subject.

If KSHSAA doesn't want grand state, then the KWCA should host it independently. We should have it almost like an 18 and under state, except the 4 state tournaments be "district championships"

I like your idea.

Your smart for that!