Rules for HS kids participating in preseason tourn

What is official first day of practice this year? I assume a HS kid can go to any tourney prior to that? How about participating in the Cliff Keen kickoff? If HS practice starts before the Kickoff, can the kid wait to start HS practice til after Kickoff? I have some parents asking, as they would like to get some of the great competition that you see at CK Kickoff without hurting their HS eligibility.

The first day of practice is November 12th!

We are considering doing a midnight madness!! Has anyone tried it before?

I would also be interested in the legality of that senario. Are we able to sit out of the practice room and all meetings until the Monday after the Kick-Off Classic and then "elect" to participate in the wrestling program officially on the following Monday? Any A.D.'s out there have the answer? Beim's, whats your thoughts on this?

Tim,

I believe that you have found the loophole. Verify for yourself.

24/7

let me be the first to say that this is an excellent example of KSHSAA rules being prohibitive of our athletes best interests to compete at the same levels at neighboring states. However, it would be a pretty "prima donna" type move to skip out on the first week of High School practice simply to compete in one tournament...might as well skip out the first two weeks and get into the Oklahoma Open as well.

Lawrence High does it every year. The rule is that if you go to practice at midnight, it is not mandatory for you to attend the practice after school. Then they spend the night in the school and the next morning the parents come up early and make them breakfest. The kids look foreward to it every year. So go ahead Randy it is a great bonding experience for the kids.

In regards to setting out practice and particpating at Cliff Keen:
I wouldn't be coy about it. If you are thinking of doing this then call KSHAA and ask if it is okay. Why risk the eligibility?

And if you skip out on the first two weeks of practice you might as well etc., etc., etc..

Prior to attempting a midnight practice I recommend reviewing the rule regarding the fall buffer week with the high school administration.

The fall athletic buffer week begins on Monday (November 5, 2007) and runs through Sunday (November 11, 2007). The gymnasium is to be closed to students outside of school hours.

I do not believe it to be a good idea to have students loitering on school property in order to be timely for a practice to begin in the very early hours of Monday morning, and then report back to school for classes several hours later.

Is Monday, November 12, 2007 a Holiday at Central Heights High School?

In our district school is in session on November 12.

Mahan - You may be correct, there could be some that would want to be negative about it and call it a "prima donna" type move but it would be fine with me if someone took advantage of it as long as it was acceptable by KSHAA. If it was acceptable and my son wanted to go to CK and most importantly - his coach was open to the idea I certainly would consider letting him do it. Especially if I were in Southeast Kansas where its such a short trip for an oustanding level of competition. Is it a "prima donna" type move to not go out for football in order to lift and practice wrestling a couple nights each week instead? I would hope not, and I would really have to consider how much I would be concerned about other opionions if it helped in the advancement of a wreslter.

Tim -
The coaches pre-approval may be the thing that makes it violate the rules. I got to tell you ... it is exciting seeing all all these guys from School boy duels getting ready for high school. Are you shocked that your guy is in high school? How big is he now.

In my opinion, holding out from a week of high school practice to compete at the Cliff Keen kickoff would not be worth it, from my experience the first week of practice is the hardest. Your'e not in the best shape, and my coach likes to work everyone hard to weed out the ones who aren't serious about wrestling. I used to think that Cliff Keen tournaments and all the tournaments that Roller held were very tough, but after my freshman year in high school i realized that those tournaments did not turn out to be as tough as i thought they were.. Example, 8th grade year i had it pretty much easy at the kickoff, i won and pinned everyone there, then tulsa i made it to the finals but then lost, i was 145 for those tournaments, then my freshman year i made the journey to 125 and ended up getting to wrestle tough seniors like Keaton Baker or Cory Bloodgood, Baker was the defending high school state champ at the time

Barry - That could cetainly be true. I would sure want some form of documentation from KSHAA in hand before acting out on it. I dont see it working for us, but I would have absolutely no problem with anyone who did get approval and carried it out.
Yes, the high school years have definitly "snuck up" on us and its both exciting and nervousness combined, wish we were wrestling already! Doesnt seem like he should be in H.S. (doesnt act like it either, but he gets that from his mother! :))
I have to say that the Schoolboy team for 2 years is one of the best things that Taylor could have participated in along with the Middle School duals. I am as excited about following the path of all those teammates as I am for Taylor to get started. And YES, I know its only preseason "guesses" and opinions, but it is sure fun to see all those young guys that committed to the Schoolboy/Middle School team(s) being mentioned in the rankings with the upperclassmen from 1/2/3A through 6A!

If you are wrestling 103 in HS in KS I guarantee you will get no better competition during the season that what you will get at the CK Kickoff. This may be true for 112 as well. You will not find many upperclassmen in those weights.

I am with Moeder on this, all the way. I already sent the question into Bowden for his clarification. I really wish the KSHSAA would move out of the dark ages so our kids could participate in the big time HS tournaments as well.

The main problem here is that the Moeders, Cokeleys, and Isenbergs are the wrestlers that really do not benefit the most from CK and other tournaments. These kids are already seasoned, accomplished athletes that all in all have a tremendous amount of mat time already. The kids that would benefit the most would be the freshman that cannot make varsity and clearly need more mat time. KSHSAA is behind the ball by not allowing our average kids to develope and take it to the next level. Our outstanding kids that are pushing this envelope already are really the ones who benefit the least.

KSHSAA Handbook 2007-2008 Edition
Rule 22 - Outside Competion
Art 1 - A student who is a member of a school athletic,scholars' bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport,scholars'bowl or debate activity.
Art 3 - A student becomes a member of a school's athletic squad, scholars' bowl or debate team when he or she first participates in a practice session.

Looks like it is legal to sit out the first week of practice.Go to CK Kickoff and start practice the 19th.

This is a reply from Rick Bowden on this issue. This agrees with Top Hat's post.

"The first day that wrestling practice for high school students can begin is November 12, 2007. Since MS/JH interscholastic wrestling teams have wrestling seasons that vary across the state, MS/JH seasons of sport are set by the schools. The KSHSAA has told MS/JH schools with interscholastic wrestling that since they set their own season of sport, that they can set their starting dates for practice within a reasonable time frame. A reasonable time frame means in general that starting practice approximately two weeks prior to the start of a season."



"Prior to a student starting practice with a school team, they may participate in competitions in the same sport. Once a student begins practicing with or attending practices for the school team, they have joined the school team. If after joining the school team the student participates in a non-school team competition in that same sport, they have violated KSHSAA rules."

this is ridiculous. what kind of statement are you sending to your coach and your team if you skip a week of practice for one tournament? plus, you SHOULD be playing football up until, if not past, buffer week.

I can see your point about missing practice with your team to wrestle in one tournament on your own, but saying that all wrestlers should be playing football? Huh?

How can you, with so much seriousness, be on a wrestling talk forum with the name Jayhawk Pride? The Jayhawks turn their nose up on the great sport of wrestling almost 40 years ago.

Back to the topic. I feel ALL coaches should ENCOURAGE any of their wrestlers who are physically prepared and age eligible to miss the first week and go to the CK Kickoff. It will be the best experience that 90% of the freshmen in HS would be able to get. Lets face it, JV wrestling in KS is the equivalent of Kids Novice or Middle School/JH wrestling at best. What are you really missing, check in on Monday, wrestle Tue thru Thur and get out early for the football game on Friday. Get off your soap box and help make a difference.

Louden Swain said it best "I got news for you coach, wrestling is not a team sport."

well, if i had it my way KU would have a D-1 wrestling program, but i am not in charge.
as for all wrestlers playing football, if they are not playing football then they should be running cross country or playing soccer. i have seen plenty of 'one sport wonders' who would have been a contributor to another sport but for one reason or another did not participate. the first week of practice is an essential part of the season, it allows you to review basic techniques and sets the tone for the rest of season.

I don't think we will have to worry about it. The few high school coaches I've talked to so far are not receptive to releasing their kids to miss the first week of practice.

Fortunately it is not the coaches decision.

If I choose to allow my child (student athlete) to participate in a pre-season tournament prior to attending any high school practice session - the coach is junk out of luck.

The coach will not dictate anything to me, or my child, prior to my student athletes participation in the school program.

I can't speak for all districts but I can say that is not how it works in our school. Plus, our team has special exercises for those who miss practice regardless of the reason. Those that have seen or done the those exercises tend not to want to miss a practice.

I can assure you that your district follows KSHSAA rules and your coach, athletic administration and local BOE are well aware they have absolutely NO control over an athlete prior to their participation in a high school activity.


I am not certain this situation would pass the legal litmus test, and if the administration would allow this discipline if the matter is pressed.

I would be very hesitant to punish an athlete for participating in an activity prior to participation in the high school activity. If the athlete misses practices after choosing to participate with the high school that is another matter entirely.

It is still up to coach's discretion as to who participates at the varsity level. I know there are wrestle offs, but the right to challenge is up to the coach's rules.

As an example, a 2 way football starter missed the 4 days of practice prior to school starting and was not allowed to suit up for the 1st game. The coach was notified well in advance and the reason for missing was the athlete was out-of-town at Philmont Scout Ranch hiking over 70 miles through the mountains (conditioning) and then to pass his Eagle Scout Board of Review.

In our school the participation in extra-curricular activities is a privilege. Students are allowed to participate at the discreation of the administration and coaches. The coaches decide when mandatory participation is required and the punishment for missing. I would never even think of attempting to remove that authority from them.

Unfortunately there are some coaches out there who put their own egos in front of what is best for their individual student athletes. This is consistent with the KSHSAA party line "Our rules reflect the desires of the voting membership." Why would anyone who is passionate about wrestling want to preclude an athlete from participating in a competition for no real reason. If you go to the CK Kickoff then you have been working out so missing the first week of HS practice is no big deal. If a coach doesn't want to put his best wrestler on the mat then it is time to find a new coach (unless there is good reason, I totally disagree with pulling a kid from a sport when the kid is doing something constructive with his time such as mentioned in the above story).

As fas as Jayhawk's case. I am not sure if there is a problem is a athlete wants to only focus on one sport?? If you wrestle and play baseball it is good to have break in the fall and that doesn't make you a one-sport wonder. Jayhawk, that is a strange argument you wish to make

Because the coach has the entire team to concern himself with, not just one individual wrestler. While attending some tournament in BFE might be beneficial to that one wrestler (IMO it would not), that same wrestler could be helping his team get better by practicing with a lesser wrestler. As the one known wrestler has indicated in this thread, the week of practice with his team was much more beneficial than attending a tournament.


I would say that if a coach doesn't understand this IS a team sport it is time to "find a new coach"!

How does this situation negatively impact the "team"? How many members of the "team" will be on the mat at any one point in time? Come on sporto this is a "quasi" team sport. It is an individual combat, one-on-one competition between two single competitors. Honestly, there is NO WAY that missing the first week of practice to compete in a tournament hurts the team or the individual. I guarantee you that if someone elects to do so they are practicing somewhere or they wouldn't want to compete.

Sporto, if your football team is in the playoffs your wrestlers who are football players have to miss wrestling practice so they can practice and play football. So are you going to say, "It is okay for the wrestling "team" and the wrestler to miss practice for a football game but it isn't okay to miss it for wrestling tournament." Sporto, not even you can make that statement make sense...

I believe, in this sport more than any other high school activity, that a coach walks a fine line in his treatment of his athletes. Our sport allows us to have high rates of individual success, while team success may be limited depending on how many of those individuals are experiencing those high winning percentages. Using the CK as an example, would I punish an athlete for missing the first week of practice to attend such an event? NO. Would I have them doing extra workouts after practices (drilling, conditioning, etc.)? YES. Not as a punishment, but as a way to demonstrate to his teammates that he valued the work that his teammates put into that week. He would be assinged a workout partner for eash session and be asked to work with some lesser skilled wrestlers so that they would benefit from his expertise.
I would hope my practices and coaching would convey to my athletes that no one person is more important than the team. Better, maybe, but not more important. I would assume that the athlete that missed the first week of practice would understand this as surely he has come to understand a team concept. His teammates would accept and support his endeavor prior to him attending practice, just as he would support and acknowledge their accomplishments by putting in a little extra work. Wrestling is a team sport due to the need for competitive workouts in the practice room.
As for the comment regarding coaches ego's and how they are a reflection of KSHSAA hiding behind the voting body's will, I think that point of view is a little skewed. I would ask that anyone who believes that should attend the KWCA clinic in Salina and find out how many coaches are not interested in making Kansas wrestling nationally renowned at all levels.
This post is not intended to be an attack on anyone or any team's policy. Team policy is written by each coach, and possibly building administration, as to what they feel is best for their athletes. While not every policy is the same, or agreed with, there are a few things parents can do. First, talk with the coach and determine why the policy is the way it is. Hopefully, you can then get a better grasp on the policy or possibly find a way to work it out. If that fails, then you can always discuss the policies with administration at the building or board levels. Either way, you would have an answer to this quandry.

Both I and the wrestler in one of the previous posts indicated exactly how it negatively impacted the team. If you choose not to agree that is your opinion.


I guess that is why you are not a high school wrestling coach.


You are correct about that, but then again I often can't make sense of your statements! I don't know why you allow yourself to be associated with wrestling if you have so little respect for the people doing this job of coaching our students.

We need more coaches like mawcoach and less forum contributors like Sport0.

I reviewed the entire post and I haven't found any
"wrestlers" pointing out how going to a tournament is going to hurt the team and Sport0, as usual, you don't really have a point or any data just an opinion.

Very few high school wrestlers will move on to wrestle in college. For most kids, the best thing about participating in high school sports is being part of a team and school spirit. Even if you miss the first week of wrestling practice for football playoffs, you are still part of your high school.

I have seen how high school wrestling functions as a non-team sport when the focus was on a couple of superior wrestlers and the rest were just there. I have also seen how a different coach took a group of new wrestlers and built a successful team. The camaraderie and character development will have a lasting impact on their lives way beyond wrestling

The individual must have deleted his post. To paraphrase his post, he said he had participated in CK and the first week of practice was much more difficult and beneficial to him.


You mean as opposed to all the "data" you offered? My point is let the coaches coach and stay out of their way. And when they have a different approach or opinion on how to do things, that doesn't automatically make them lazy or egotistical.

Lancer hit the nail on the head with this one. High school is the only time 99% percent of the population will ever get to be part of an athletic or non-athletic competitive team of any kind. In MY opinion every student in the school should participate in a sport/activity every season, you only get 12 seasons, so make the best of it. going to compete by yourself is not the same as being part of a team.

I would put a different slant on it. I would think the other wrestlers and coach should put a positive perspective on this, not a negative of "this kid is getting out of practice for a week or a prima donna". To me it should be "we have a kid who is so committed to wrestling that he has been working out for over a month early, and is traveling to test himself early against the best competition he can find." This should help set the tone for how hard work and extra work sets us up for wrestling and life success. This can be done in a very positive way. I will tell you the kids don't see this as a "prima donna" unless the kid is just a jerk, and that would be the case with or without the first week of practice. I would suggest most of the team would respect a kid who on his own time works countless hours to get better and in the long run,help their team. These are usually the same kids running in the morning on their own, etc. Not prima donnas.

24/7

Good point Mike. It is obvious that a kid that wants to compete at a tournament like CK, is not trying to avoid a week of practice. It will also be obvious to his teammates very quickly where he stands as a team contributor. The type of kid that wrestles at CK is usually the kid that wrestles through July of each year, when most of his friends quit wrestling at the end of February.

While I understand and have no problem with a wrestler reaching for that extra weekend, I would personally want my son at the team's first practice. There are opportunities already to get 15-20 matches in before November 12th.

The real sad fact is that many of the kids who will be participating will be practicing with their HS teams because their state organizations permit them to wrestle in open tournaments. It is too bad that could not be the case for all those who want to practice and compete in a great tournament. The 1% that Jayhawk pride speaks of.

The CK is a great preseason tourn and a lot of NE Oklahoma kids will be there and it is very tough and a great opportunity for anyone that could get there and wrestle in it. However there is no way that it can replace what will be gained during the first week of a high school practice. Any one that believes it is in their athletes best interest to participate in the CK and forego the first week of HS practice, has probably not been in a HS program.

The real issue is why can't we take our kids to an open tournament after a good week of HS practice...that is the problem that needs to be addressed.

I would load some kids and go if we could.

it would be nice if everyone could compete in open tournaments, but to me it is obvious why it is not allowed. Do i think it is right, probably not, but it does make it things "fair", no really. As for the 1%, it may or may not be the ones who want to go.

Wow! this is quite a string of posts. One thing I can say with confidence is formed in a question - everyone always talks "mattime" is the best experience for a wrestler. Break this down for me - I've always assumed this as being practice time. Heck, anyone can sign up and compete in a tourney - winning or going 0-2... give me a week in the practice room and put me against someone (equal) who goes to a tourney, I like my odds! One very important point some of us are missing - respect from our fellow teamates speaks volumes... during my 7-8 yrs of coaching I've seen kids do unbelievable things primarily feeding off of their teamates. Such teamates that are in the practice room helping them not those that believe this sport is about individuality!! I'll take a group (team if you will) of kids that will work their butt's off for their parents, coaches, and teamates before one kid that thinks and acts like he's to good and goes to a tourney rather than starting practice with "his" teamates - thats what summer wrestling is all about... just my feelings!

It really depends on when you want your kids to peak. Whether it be USA Kids & Club Wrestling - I want those kids to be at their best in March. For high school kids - ideally you want them at their best in February. Some high school kids may put more focus on summer wrestling and peak in the summer. I have seen some H.S. kids that hit their peak a little to early in January or early February - and maybe they have had to many matches early. I think the fall is for building strength, conditioning, and technique - for the up & coming long winter of competition. Some guys can stay on top of their game (peak) most of the time. But -a very large percent of competitors never stay on their peak all of the time. If you are trying to do that as a group or team it is pretty hard to get them all to peak at the same time - but that is one of the goals of the coach. Peak, A little flat for a while, peak, a little flat & peak. Stay out of the valley if possible.

Not that it matters but I agree that many of the pre season tourneys would be great for "mat time". But, I would struggle with having to give a week with their HS team to attend one tourney.

I might add in exchange for starting to season well in advance that a wrestler may be better suited to wrestle thru the spring at the state and nat'l level events in folkstyle, freestyle, and greco. There are plenty of top level events to keep their attention well into the summer if they want them.

I believe I saw high school wrestlers competing last year at the Bighorn Nationals the week before the Cliff Keen Kickoff.

A lot of great posts. Now CK is just around the corner. Who's going ?? I have a kid that is not a "Prima Donna" just loves to wrestle. Jake Hattabaugh 15U 145 will be there. Anyone need a ride ??

Ryne Cokeley 15U 115 (which is technically 117).