Dirty Vs Tough Wrestler??

My question is for all those high schoolers out there. I recently saw a match where a kid got angry at his opponent saying he was wrestling dirty. I have known the boy he was mad at for many years and he wrestles very hard but never in my opinion dirty. When he locks up he locks up very hard, when he holds on its very tight, but he doesnt dig into an opponent but i have seen him squeeze a headlock hard enough the other kid actually tried tapping out. I dont believe he has ever been called for excessive roughness by the referee (is their such a rule?). He does know and use pressure points to his advantage. He has no anamosity for anyone off the mat, but he has no qualms about the meanest crossface when on the mat. My question is as wrestlers do you think this kid is wrestling hard or wrestling dirty? Was the other kid justified or just a cry baby. Remember this is high school im talking about not kids club. Im just curious how as wrestlers do you see a time when someone is too rough- thanks

If it is legal then I see no problem, and as long as the ref. is not calling anything, the I would say the other wrestler needs to toughen up and quit complaining. Wrestling by nature is a brutal sport that takes a special kind of athlete. Every move, shot, or crossface should be executed with supreme authority. Aggressiveness is a must for wrestlers to be successful at the highest levels. Man up or get off the mat, and take up a non-contact sport.

I'd say as long as it's done in a controlled manner and under a cool head then no harm no foul... body language tells a lot though

Tough can be seen as dirty but isn't. Of course for those that think wrestling is too tough, there is always basketball.

My personal style of calling a match is that if I feel a wrestler throws or applies a hold/move to gain an advantageous position, then there's nothing wrong with how "hard" it is thrown or applied.

If a wrestler throws a crossface and winds up from the parking lot and isn't attempting the ward off a takedown or turning the crossface into a cradle/turk/etc. then I'd verbally say "watch it" and if they go to it again, call them for unnecessary roughness and award their opponent a penalty point and recovery time, if needed.

I'd agree with Crossface, wrestling is a tough sport, but there are those wrestlers that cross the line and become dirty.

If this truly is a dirty wrestler, then the opposing coach can always approach the official(s) before the contest and convey their concern. Unfortunately for a lot of people, our judgement is what drives our calls, in situations like this, and the wrestlers, coaches and parents just have to live with it.

I think it just depends on the kid. People used to think I was being a jerk for taking someone down and letting them go. Like I was just toying with them. I sucked at riding so I'd rather give them one instead of two. Some kids might go for a front head lock knowing they could choke someone out by just holding it and looking like they are defending their leg. That to me is dirty when you hold a position with out the thought of doing an actual move.

i believe the line between a wrestler being dirty and tough is far from thin. a wrestler knows when hes being dirty or just tough, theres no thinking should i of done that, was that right to do? as long as what the wrestler is doing is legal and looking for better position for the win then they are definitely not dirty. 15 takedowns in the first period is not dirty, neither is trying to squeeze your opponents head. have you ever tried to get out of a headlock when your about to pass out? its near impossible.

Shane;
It is my opinion that saying "watch it" is not the correct call. If you need to say "watch it" you just gave that kid a free cheap shot.
By calling them for unnecessary roughness and awarding their opponent a penalty point, it sends a message to everyone in the gym that you will not tolerate that stuff on YOUR mat.
Are you going to say "watch it" to the opponent when he takes his cheap shot? Because you know if given the opportunity, they are going to 'get even'!!
Wrestling is a very tough sport to 'Ref' for sure and wrestling is a tough sport done by tough people for sure but I think you guys need to step in more, at the high school level, and stop some of the BS that goes on.

I hear what you're saying oldfan, but I guess I'm giving them the benefit of them thinking it was "ok" and I'm just letting them know I think it wasn't and they better not do it again or I'll hit 'em for unecessary roughness. Call preventative officiating if you will.

If they do it and it causes an injury the first time, I'd hit them for sure, but I was going at it from the angle where it could be "borderline" and I'm just letting them know what my take on it was and will be if done again.

Once again, as you say, it is difficult to ref it, and refs vary! I like physical or "tougher" wrestling them some of my official brethren, but that doesn't make me better or worse then them, unless you like or dislike that level of physicalness (is that a word? )

I'm not here to call offcials out!!!!
Officiating wrestling is tough but..............if a high school
wrestling offcial does not have the guts to call it, the kids are in trouble..

I'll tell you another thing that should be called a lot more; the arm chop. I don't know the rule or if this is even addressed in the rule book or case book but when a guy raises up and chops the arm that does not seem like a wrestling move to me, it looks and smells of a frustrated wrestler trying to damage the opponents elbow joint.
Shane, does the rule and or case book address this???

This kid is neither dirty nor tough - he's perfect. A kid that can take it to someone on the mat and then be everyone's friend off the mat. What else could you ask for? Sounds like the complainant should try hoops instead.

I agree I just wanted to make sure i wasnt crazy for thinkin the way I was. My opinion was the kid needed to man up and wrestle but then maybe i was being heartless and the wrestler i know was actually wrestling too hard> After all i certainly have never been on the receiving end of a cross face or head lock or any number of crazy contortions you boys go through in a match. And yes he pretty much is a friend to all off the mat. But he knows no friend when the whistle blows.

I have not found a specific case dealing with "the arm chop", but the only thing the rules state is not apllying pressure against the joint. I call the arm chop pretty much the same way as the previous crossface. Once again, the wrestler (or at least I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) may not being trying to actually injure their opponent, but if I feel it's crossing the line, then I'll convey that and then penalize accordingly.

People don't always agree with what I call, and I'm realistic of that, but I feel that if I can explain my position, 99.3% of the time, wrestlers and coaches will understand. Over-protective parents may never understand...

Who won? My money is on old Tough!!

Shane;
Thanks for the reply.
Keep working hard for the kids and the sport.

And you are right about one thing, over-protective parents will never understand BUT remember, you will be there one day if your lucky!!

I'm already there: Sophomre daughter and Freshman Foster daughter, but I'm able to see it through the official's eyes/viewpoint and don't have the problems of other parents!

Any time that an official addresses an individual wrestler shouldn't it be accompanied with a warning/caution/penalty?
If not isn't that just coaching? I know I don't want officials speaking to my kids they need to learn early in the year not at state.

That's a loooooooong debate that's been hashed and with surely continue to be rehashed...

I've got to do what I think is best, and coaches are free to agree/disagree with me. Nature of the beast!

I sure don't expect to please everyone in the gym each time I pull on my target, I mean stripes, and leave the safety of my lockerroom.

Yep you got it Tough boy won

As long as the moves are deemed legal by the refs, there is no such thing as wrestling too hard.

chopping the arm too hard? as long as its not illegal (putting pressure against the joint), a wrestler can chop as hard as he wants to gain control of his opponents wrist. again, if you dont like it, go shoot some hoops.

I do not think there is such thing as wrestling too hard. Dirty? Yes. Dirty would be such things as intentional hits to the groin or choking. But those are things you have to deal with. Although I could see being mad from a parents point of view.

Also, I think the tough wrestler comes out victorious 9 out of 10 times.

I actually cringe at this. Anyone remember the kids match a few years ago with Jarrod Morrow. That kid's elbow was shattered; I think I have been reluctant to teach a hard chop since then. I realize there are appropriate chops, but I personally don't like chops due to seeing this event with Morrow. It was to this day, one of the sickest things I have ever seen. Personally, I still say, that move was dirty. Sometimes I think the difference between tough and dirty, can also involve how a move is taught. I don't see a hard cross face as being dirty, don't see a Tulsa Ride as being dirty, but those moves when applied appropriately, sure do hurt and are tough. I realize the original post made a distinction between joints and the arm so this isn't intended as a slam there in anyway.

MY kid was wrestling for the state tourny in regionals last year.The kid he wrestled hit him pretty hard in the back of the head trying to put in a power half-the ref kinda told him to watch it. A short time later the other kid hauled off and nailed my son again, staggering him and bringing a large fan response. Our coach's remark to the ref was simply "if you had done something about the first shot-there wouldn't have been a second one"