Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative

From the April 23rd and 24th KSHSAA Board Of Directors agenda.....


Modify Rule 5, Classification of Senior High
Schools, Section 2, Article 6, to read as follows:

Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
six Classes—6A, 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A and 1A. Class 6A shall
include the thirty-two (32) high schools with the largest
enrollments; Class 5A the next thirty-two (32); 4A the next
sixty-four (64); 3A the next sixty-four (64); 2A the next
sixty-four (64); and Class 1A, the remainder.

Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
eight classes- 6A, 5A, 4A1, 4A2, 3A, 2A, 1A and All Private.
Class 6A shall include the thirty-two (32) public
high schools with the largest enrollments; Class 5A the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A1 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A2 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 3A the
next sixty-four (64) public high schools; Class 2A the next
forty-eight (48) public high schools and Class 1A , the
remainder public high schools; and an all Private school
classification.

FOOTBALL EXCEPTION: Classifications, for the purpose
of determining district football assignments, shall be
based on the total enrollment in the school’s ninth, tenth
and eleventh grades as submitted to the KSHSAA on the
date established by state statute for official enrollment.
For the purpose of district football, utilizing this exception,
member schools will be classified as follows:

Class 6A: 32 largest member schools playing 11-Man football
Class 5A: 32 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 4A: 64 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 3A: 64 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 2-1A: All other member schools playing 11-Man
football
8-Man: participating schools will be assigned to two
separate Divisions, as established by the Executive Board
NOTE: For 8-Man district football participation, assignments
shall be limited to those schools with a maximum
enrollment of 100 students in grades 9, 10 and 11. (See
Rule 35-2-3, Football.)

Class 6A: 32 largest member public high schools playing
11-Man football
Class 5A: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 4A1: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 4A2: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 3A: 64 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 2A: 48 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 1A: All other member public high schools playing
11-Man football
8-Man: participating member high schools will be assigned
to two separate Divisions, as established by the
Executive Board.
Private: participating member private high schools will
be assigned to at least two separate divisions, as established
by the Executive Board. (8 man Private schools to
be assigned by the Executive Board per Article XII sec. III)
NOTE: For 8-man district football participation, assignments
shall be limited to those schools with a maximum
enrollment of 100 students 9, 10 and 11. (See Rule 35-
2-3, Football.)

12. Modify Rule 5, Classification of Senior High
Schools, Section 2, Article 6, to read as follows:
Art. 6: In classifying high schools for activity purposes, those
composed entirely of boys or girls shall double their enrollment
figures. For example, a boys’ school comprised of 125
students would be placed in the same classification as a
coeducational school with 250 students.
In classifying high schools for activity purposes, private or parochial schools shall be placed in the next classification above based on student enrollment as currently outlined in Article 1 and Article 3 of Rule 5. For example, a private or parochial school classified as a 2A school based on enrollment would be placed in one classification above or 3A for all activities.

At last! The Board of Directors (which has one private school representative) can finally put all of these cheating, recruiting, private school in their place! I can't wait to see what happens! Also, I agree, 4A is just too damn tough so let's split it in half, might as well split 3A too if this measure is aimed at fairness. 4A1 & 4A2 would get 8 man regionals while 3A schools still go to 20 team regionals? Whoa! Maybe I am wrong here but it is starting to feel like rec league soccer where everyone gets a medal just for showing up.

I don't get it??? Is this a joke, something that is atcually going to be put into place, OR something that is going to be voted on in April??????????

In any case it sounds ridiculous to me!

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. So, if this thing passes (some dudes are going to vote on it???) then for the state tournament - we would have SIX state tournaments???

http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf

Here is the actual document.

If you look at the first proposal(11) it splits the 4A in to two groups and puts all the private schools in a seperate class and was proposed by the Frontier League.

If you look at the second proposeal (12) it makes all private schools bump up one class for competition purposes and was proposed by the NCKL.

What would be the motivation for these leagues? NCKL is all 4A schools. Are they trying to bump Hayden from 4A to 5A and replace them with Collegiate?

Not sure what Frontier League's motivation is. I was in that league for many years, most of those schools are growing, figured now that Gardner was out of their league, their problems were solved, guess not.

Could somebody shed some light for me? Greg Mann where are you? Watching basketball? I guess since I have a dog in the fight I would like to know what the motivation is for these changes??

Bill,

Not being on the Exec Board I have no insight into this proposal; was unaware of it until '02's post and have no contact whatsoever with the Frontier League. I will be surprised if this is acted upon without it going to regional meetings in the fall for discussion; but the summer coaching provision was enacted without regional discussions, so. . .

I have some opinions about the private school provisions; but, opinions are like noses, all have one.

BTW--congrats on your KWCA Admin of the Year award.

Marysville is in the NCKL and has been 3a the last 2-3 years. I do suppose football is the reason as usually Chapman seems to get thrown to Hayden as a sacrifice each year.

Hayden usually plays 5a and 6a in football anyway and wins. maybe going 5a in wrestling will get them a state qualifier.

I apologize, I should have posted a hyperlink along with the proposals so everyone would know it was a factual document.

The recommendation to split 4A into two classes and to put private schools into two seperate classifications is from the Frontier League.

The second proposal to move private schools into the division one class larger than that which they would otherwise qualify is from the NCKL.

So, how many state tournaments would that bring us up to? I'm confused.

Thanks, did not know I was even nominated. Somebody pointed out to me an interesting side note: Bob Threlkel was a former coach at TMP and my coach my freshman year. Craig Ewert is a TMP grad. Damn those private schools!

This is so ridiculous that I am practically speachless. Can I get phone numbers to all of the bozos and idiots that came up with this plan? Let me know soon as I will immediately put my house up for sale and move to state that has fewer counties, school districts, and per capita idiots. I am pretty sure this is the most absurd thing I have read on this forum.

When cost reductions are needed we extend playoffs, invite more teams to the post season, create more championships and continue to water down competition. Jostens will be pleased to see this plan. Rick Bowden might actually have to put in 40 hours a week during the school year. Seriously, does ANYONE agree with this plan?

I know that Redstorm was being sarcastic but anyone who believes that private schools have an advantage really don't understand how it works. Private schools get NO tax dollars. Those of us who choose to attend private schools pay dearly for the right as we get NO tax break. So, all of you whiners who don't like private schools, you get our tax dollars and we take a student out of your public school which gives you a better economic education situation.

I am ready for the REAL tea party.

How do you say watered down – Not the Midwest flood of 1993 – try Noah's Ark and the Flood - Story Summary.

Scripture Reference:
Genesis 6:1 - 9:17
Noah's Ark and the Flood - Story Summary:

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestorysummaries/p/noahsarkflood.htm

If Kansas does go to 6,7, 8 classes it truely would be ________.

New Kansas State Tournament Team Trophy ideas:

http://www.picsearch.com/pictures/tv%20series/by%20genre/dramedies/noah's%20arc.htm

Summer vacation ideas for winning team members and the individuals who want to minimize competition.


http://www.noahsarkwaterpark.com/

Will, call David Morford at DeSoto High. He's the one behind the plan to expand the number of classifications. I agree it is totally ridiculous. Then call every other principal in the Frontier League except Gardner-Edgerton. It's a bunch of sour grapes on the part of everyone else because G-E kicks their butts in everything.

As for Bowden putting in 40 hours a week, he's close to retiring, so he might call it a career before doing that.

And I agree with you on private schools. I am originally from New Orleans, where you HAD to go to a private school or else you would be a blithering idiot when you graduated from high school. Some schools in the LHSAA tried on numerous occasions to throw the private schools out, but it never passed. I don't want to ever see a two-association system like is in place in Alabama, Mississippi and Texas.

The Frontier League is trying to deceive us by calling it 4A-1 and 4A-2. Why just not call it 7A, 6A, 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A? You realize if this happens there will be TEN state basketball tournaments, because 1A is going to two divisions. Then you add in the private schools. The state doesn't have 10 sites to go to, unless you throw in Pitt State (brother), let 7A play at the downtown arena in Wichita and add in a high school or two.

In football, there aren't enough 11-man schools to fill five classes. And they want SEVEN for public schools and two for private schools? This would be the nuclear bomb.

Make sure your league's BOD member is informed about this proposal.

This idea would not increase opportunities to participate.
It may even decrease participation and cooperation among schools, coaches, clubs, etc., - that do provide opportunities for both public/private schools and student athletes.

Didn't recently (sometime over the last 5-10 years) they have a state wrestling tournament at Hutchinson high school?

Didn't recently (sometime over the last 5-10 years) they have a state wrestling tournament at Hutchinson high school?

2008

Ugh. If this silly new rules past, I guess state finals in HS gyms again . . .

Here is a thread with some thoughts by fans of various sports on this subject.....

http://forums.cjonline.com/index.php/topic,43587.msg1100700.html#new

sorry but i blame all you 4a/321a fans that always complain about how much tougher you have it. many of you who are now upset have complained the loudest about 5a/6a having it easier. now you did it, it will be easy for all.

QUIT YOUR *(*&^%% COMPLAINING. SEE THE DAMAGE IT CAN DO!!!!

LET'S ALL GET ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS AND STOP IT, GET AN OPPOSING PROPOSAL.

COKELEY YOU CAN SPEARHEAD IT, BUT SERIOUSLY IF YOU EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT 5A/6A HAVING IT EASY AGAIN, YOU KNOW I CAN FIND YOU, HAHA.

wow first we can't get our kid into the school district we wanted, now we wouldn't leave for anything, ANYTHING. well now i found SOMETHING. WOW.

My wife said: "That is like going back to kindergarten - where everybody gets a ribbon."

I hear you, and I feel your pain. The two years I made State in high school I wrestled at Russell and Abilene. I watched my older brother wrestle high school State at Hays in the coliseum. Having watched my son wrestle at the Expo Center and the Bicentennial Center, I would hope that he gets to wrestle high school State, should he get the opportunity, somewhere other than a high school gymnasium.

For the most part, I've never seen that as complaining but rather bragging on the part of the 4A fans. As well as, just poking fun at the 5A/6A folks, but you should be able to do both at the same time I think!

If this was actually approved what would be private schools incentive to even participate under the KSHSAA? I really do not know what it would be. Why subject the private schools to rules of an organization that would be forcing you to compete in a diluted competitive situation? It would seem to me there would be no reason for connection to the KSHSAA. It would be much like the grade school and middle school situation that we currently have in sports. For the Catholic private schools we have CYO competition that is completely separate from the public middle school competitions. I would think that is the same situation that would evolve.

I don't see the purpose of it in Kansas. It is too small of a state and the private schools have really not been that dominant in most sports. Aquinas has been pretty dominant in soccer for both boys and girls but really no more than SM Northwest has been in cross country or SM East in swimming or Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football. Bishop Carroll has been a dominant wrestling team but no more than Goddard.

Will Cokeley, one thing that you might like in such a new system would be if the private schools dropped out of the KSHSAA then we would no longer be subject to KSHSAA's restrictions.

my point is it's all in how it's perceived, i have never taken offense. and have also agreed that in 4a a title is tougher to achieve, but some make it sound like, 5a and 6a have cakewalks in all sports not just wrestling.

there's a lesson to be learned here no matter how you or i perceive it.

some people like kindergarten, some people feel they are entitled, some people sit on their cans and live off of the working people, some people want everyone to be happy, some people don't like to work for anything, some people want everything handed to them. SOME PEOPLE PERCIEVE BRAGGING, LIKE COMPLAINING AND FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THOSE POOR KIDS WHO HAVE IT SOOOOOO TOUGH AND WANT EVERYONE TO BE TREATED FAIRLY. SOME PEOPLE THINK LIFE SHOULD BE FAIR, NOW SOME PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT THAT WAY.

HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY. ALL IT TAKES IS A FEW MIS-INTERPRETED STATEMENTS TO PLANT A SEED/ IDEA, THEN SOMEBODY GOES AND DUMPS WATER ON IT, NOW WE HAVE A TREE GROWING.

SON GO GET MY CHAINSAW, OR WE'RE MOVING TO MISSOURI.

Doesn't Missouri use a multiplier factor for private schools to determine classification?

Bad plan altogether, but you can't deny the success of the private schools in all sports, not just wrestling. There has been a disproportionate amount of championships earned by the private schools. Defend it the way you want to Will, but you can't deny it, private schools have advantages that public schools do not. I am sure that you would say not receiving taxes is a disadvantage, and some would say having boundary lines is a disadvantage for public schools. Are these the only two proposals being considered?

For purposes of clarification, it is NOT KSHSAA staff who are recommending these changes; they have been proposed by member schools; specifically those in the Frontier and NCK Leagues.

For further reading and consideration a quick google search yielded these articles; some are dated but still provide good background on the issue. It is apparent that several state athletic associations "bump" private school enrollment for classification purposes. The first one listed is an excellent analysis of how state activity associations all across the U.S. handle public/private schools

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6936/is_4_10/ai_n28543521/

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/shared/oh/fbnation/stories/1104fbmultiplier.html

http://www.accforums.com/articles/editorials/multiplier-private-schools-kryptonite/

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1348646

"The means of placing private schools within these classifications have become a key issue in Arkansas. Prior to 2002, only single-gender schools would have its enrollment altered, in this case by doubling the reported enrollment. in 2002, the enrollments reported by private schools was multiplied by 1.35. In 2006, that multiplier was increased to 1.75. Starting in 2008, the multiplier wil be dropped altogether, and each private school will be placed one classification above where the enrollment would otherwise place the school." Wikipedia

a

http://www.salawus.com/PUBLICATIONS/PUBS/Page382/
click on link to find full article.

not positive about it, but i think they do. i know arkansas does, as well as oklahoma.

Quote:

The states of Alabama, Arkansas, and Missouri have a 1.35 multiplier; Arkansas recently raised its multiplier from 1.35 to 1.75; Georgia has a 1.5 multiplier which it has repealed; Illinois has a 1.65 multiplier; Tennessee recently adopted a 1.8 multiplier;

and Texas has a de facto multiplier. Wisconsin is looking at multiplier options beyond the familiar public-private school divide.

Arizona, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina have explored a multiplier, but found limited support for it. Indiana and Nebraska have rejected a multiplier by votes of the athletic association board and by members of the athletic association respectively.

Kentucky and Louisiana pursued segregation of private schools and New York has taken a unique approach that defies an easy explanation.

There have been a lot of public schools that have been dominant sports programs. I remember the days when Wyandotte used to be dominant in basketball, SM North and Lawrence in football. I believe Manhattan also used to have a dominant football program. Currently what a about the disapportionate amount of State Championships that SM Northwest has in boys and girls cross country, SM East in swimming, and Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football, and Goddard in wrestling? What accounts for their level of continued success?

Probably good coaching and good athletes.

Precisely. And I think that good coaching is an especially important and maybe the most important part of it. After all what could it be about the SM Northwest area as far as athletic talent goes that produces all those great cross country teams over other areas of the state with 6A schools? I think it has a lot more to do with Coach Van Rose than the cross country athletic talent in the SM Northwest area.

They should implement a negative multiplier for schools districts not providing a middle school and/or youth program or organization. Each HS should have a youth program. If they do not they are not elgible to compete in the State tournament series.

2 Classes - 1A = schools that have a youth program in place (5 years or more) 2A = schools that do not have a youth program in place (less than 5 years). Elgible to move into 1A in the 6th year of kids program.

http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf

KSHSAA BODA Agenda April 23-24, 2010 Meeting

Plans to change classification 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A1, 4A2, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A 10A 11A 12A, etc.

Go to to this link if you disagree or agree and voice your opinion.

http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf

I DISAGREE STRONGLY!

Contact current staff with questions.

601 SW Commerce Place, Box 495 Topeka, KS 66601-0495
PH: 785 273-5329, FAX: 785 271-0236 E-Mail: kshsaa@kshsaa.org

Administrative Staff

Gary Musselman, Executive Director
General administration; Activities requiring Board action; Financial matters; Policy interpretations; Transfer approval; Investigations, Disciplinary & Sportsmanship Matters; Rule 10 Coach Approval; Student insurance inquiries; National Federation business; Governmental affairs and public relations

gmusselman@kshsaa.org

Secretary: Mindy Nichol



Cheryl Gleason, Assistant Executive Director
KAY Program; Girls Volleyball, Girls Gymnastics, Boys and Girls Bowling, Golf, and Tennis program administration; KSHSAA Hall of Fame; Area Supervisors program for volleyball

cegleason@kshsaa.org

Secretary: Jeanette Swarts



Rick Bowden, Assistant Executive Director
Football, Wrestling, Boys and Girls Track & Field program administration; Football & all-school classification assignments; Supervision of Officials and track and field interpreters; Area Supervisors program for football and wrestling.

rbowden@kshsaa.org

Secretary: Sheryl Gudenkauf



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dcherry@kshsaa.org

Secretary: Nita Sellens



Francine Martin, Assistant Executive Director
Boys and Girls Cross Country, Boys and Girls Basketball, Boys Baseball, and Girls Softball program administration; Area Supervisors program for Basketball Program; Supervision of officials

fmartin@kshsaa.org

Secretary: Shelly Shaw



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rromine@kshsaa.org

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bunruh@kshsaa.org




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Darlene Stottmann , Receptionist

No argument on this one. I think those that argue private schools don't have advantages need to call a spade a spade. Yes, they have good coaches and good athletes, no they don't receive tax money, St. James gives academic assistance for those that can prove they have a need, as I am sure many of the private schools do. And even though the coaches may not be recruiting, the parents have no limitations and they know who the good athletes are and they recruit like it's nobody's business. Kids shouldn't go to a school because of it's athletic opportunities, but realistically many do. Advantage private school.

Brent:

Athletes go to public schools too because of the athletic opportunities. Some of those good coaches from public schools have attracted good athletes too because of their coaching and the strength of their programs. I think we can all think of examples of this even recently in wrestling. Public schools parents try to recruit kids to their schools for athletics too. I know the public school parents would not have as much chance at being successful due to the geographic limitations which would require the athlete and his family to move into the area.

I am not saying that the private schools do not have any advantages. The geographical limitation on public schools would be an advantage for private schools but a private school has to draw students from a larger area to survive. Private schools do not get nearly the percentage of students in their immediate area attending their school in comparison to the public schools in the same area. Yes it is an advantage that a private school could draw a good athlete from a larger area than a public school. But it is also a disadvantage that a private school will lose good athletes within its immediate area because the families cannot afford the higher tuition at the private high school. We have kids that attend the same private grade schools but do not go to the private high school due to the higher tuition. Instead they attend the local public school. Private schools lose athletes that way.

One of the problems I have with this is that it tends to lessen the accomplishments of the good coaches and athletes from the successful private school athletic programs. I happen to believe that the reason that the Miege girls basketball program has been so successful over the last twenty five years or so has to do with a great coach by the name of Terry English and the hard working girl athletes who have been part of his program. The same can be said of the Miege girls volleyball coach and her athletes over the years. And it can also be said about the SM Northwest cross country coach and his fine athletes, the SM East mens swimming coach and his athletes, and all the other public school successful long term athletic programs that I have previously mentioned.

would this have any impact on 6a

It would make 6a the toughest class! Lol. Will, you can move to Lawrence and bring your boys with you!

Six state tournaments is ridiculous. We should cut down on classes and lengthen the qualifying process for wrestling follow a format similar to PA. Then we could even medal 7-8 kids.

Is Hutchison a private high school? Smith Center? I know they are not but surely there is NO way they can win so many state football championships without the advantage of being a private school. How about Ark City? Didn't they have a dynasty in wrestling? How about Beloit? Dynasty in the 80's. Liberal High Shool won 14 straight track championships. Were they recruiting?? "Hey, you are a great sprinter. Move on down to the Pancake City and we will get you a job on the kill floor of NBP." Most of the significant sports dominations have been accomplished by public schools. In the 90's, in 5A, no private schools made it to the state finals, not in any year! In fact, the whiners at Bishop Carrol pissed and moaned because they couldn't beat Liberal to the point that we have a football playoff system that already includes 50% of the schools for Pete's sake!!! Enough is enough!

The only advantage private schools have is their appeal and lack of district restrictions. Those and the slight advantage that private schools, for the most part, do not offer special education programs so they don't have any special needs students being counted for their classification count. I cannot imagine that this figure is very significant.

Penalize the private schools and water down the competition even more. Lets just hand out medals and trophies to everyone that goes to practice! Lets not teach our kids that hard work and dedication will pay off. Just show up and you will be rewarded. Seriously folks!

Brent Lane you are so full of crap! Recruiting is when you reward a student by getting them to attend a school. PROMOTING is telling the truth about the opportunities. The most ambitious parents send their kids to the school that gives their kids the best chance to excel. This might even mean quitting your job and getting a new one hundreds of miles away. What is wrong with that? Ambitious parents have ambitious kids.

Everyone needs to quit whining. Remember, excuses are like a certain part of your anatomy, everyone has them. Find solutions.

Will,

You are digging up bones that have been buried. Without private schools "promoting" their athletic programs, those kids would go to their neighborhood schools where they live. Recruiting, promoting, call it what you will, but you can't deny that it doesn't happen and that it's not an advantage. I'm not trying to get into a pissing fight with you Will, but call a spade a spade and quit hiding behind what you feel you say are disadvantages when in reality you have what you consider the best possible situation. Not all private schools offer that, and not all public schools can compete with it. You mention the dynasties and powerhouses, but what about the disproportionate amount of private school championships won. Could those ALL have occurred if "promoting" your athletic program didn't happen, Honestly? For the record, I think putting private schools in a classification all by itself is a horrible idea, but letting private schools compete in the same population is not fair either because of the larger pool of students private schools draw from and more importantly the "ideal" situation private schools have. But remember this, my opinion doesn't count, I'm not on any board, I am just a coach trying to do the best I can with the students that come to our doors.

Brent,

You are crazy. There is NO WAY private schools are pulling from a larger student population. Lets take a vote:

How many of you will pay $8000 a year for your wrestler to go to high school?

Ok, that eliminated a bunch. Still not satisified. Johnny is a great wrestler. Please bring him to St. James. Drive right by Public HS A, Public HS B, etc. Pay the tuition provide your own transportation because private schools DO NOT have busing. At St. James freshmen are NOT allowed to drive, no exceptions so Johnny's mom or dad will have to drive out of their way or maybe on their way to work.

No pissing match, just common sense. The real advantage is that there isn't a giant bureaucracy called a school board, a superintendent, and host of wasted dollars on administrative and figure head costs. Private schools are more efficient and more common sense based than public schools.

You know what? I really do not care what they do at this point. We will adapt. I might lose some students whose sole identity rests on a KSHSAA state championship or I could gain some kids who would rather play 40 basketball games instead of 20 and not have to worry about scheduling for "seeding" purposes. I am really sad that there seems to be this push to put the private schools together in one division away from the public schools. All the years (12) I coached at public schools, I never cared whether we competed against public or private schools, I just knew we had to get better than we were. My first wrestling coaching experience was a humbling 76-0 defeat at the hands of SFT. It was a hard pill to swallow, but I never took them off the schedule because that would be CS. We just tried to get better. If we are forced to move up in classification, I will just challenge my students that much harder to work that much harder to prove a point. The point is that hard work will take you further in life than whining about fairness will.

I can't wait for the IOC to kick the United States out of the olympics. Maybe all of those other countries who can't recruit like the US can will finally win some stuff. What they might do is only allow the US to count .75 medals for every one they get.

I sound bitter here because I am. TMP is supported by 8 local parishes and no tuition. Translation: if you tithe to one of those parishes, your tuition is paid for. Meaning: we don't refuse any Catholic parishoners, special ed or otherwise. We also have 60 international students who participate in very few sports and keep us from making the almighty Standard of Excellence in reading every year. Because of that fact, we basically are already up one classification as it is and are only about 20 students from being 4A again or perhaps 4A1. So put us wherever. We are just going to work at getting better.

Surprisingly, we do very well in math.

I am sending a copy of "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut to all of the public schools who vote in favor of this measure.

Will,

No I am not CRAZY, I too like to take the common sense approach. What I was getting to is without private schools those kids go to their neighborhood schools. But many students' parents have the means to pursue an education at one of the private schools rather than the public schools. Can you honestly say that 100% of the attendants at St. James Academy pays 100% of their tuition? I live and teach in an area with high poverty, high rates of free and reduced students so no, 100% of our students don't pay for their "free school". I am not spited by the fact of private schools, I too relish the competition like Bill said in his post. My days at Salina South we were very competitive with Bishop Carroll and Kansas City Turner and Ark City. We had very skilled wrestlers, but we also developed them and we competed.

But for the second time I ask, explain the disproportionate amount of championships won by private schools? Is it just their time, or what?

Brent,

Turning this back on you, can you illustrate the disproportionate number of State championships that you cite?

Sure there have been runs like BC Wrestling from 2002 through 2008, but that was a reflection of just a rare pool of talent no different that Hutch's current domination of football. Our place at the State tournament this year illustrates that we have run through that talent for the time being.

At times, there are talented schools, just happens that way.

I do feel that that there is one advantage private schools have, motivation. As Will states, when parents are making the sacrifices to get their kids this opportunity, they tend to be very involved. That is a great form of motivation for the students, and in my opinion can (but not always) drive a higher level of achievement.


Chuck

Kansas State High School Activities Association
BOARD OF DIRECTORS AGENDA
MEETING LOCATION—KSHSAA OFFICE, 601 SW Commerce Place,
Topeka Kansas
Friday, April 23, 2010—4 p.m.
(hearings and discussion only)
Saturday, April 24, 2010—9 a.m.
(final action and Executive Board elections)

who cares about the private schools let them compete where ever! how about the fact that we r going to have 8 state champs! that is a joke and KSHSAA is a money hungry beast !

The left hand does not know what the right hand it doing!!!! Did everyone realize there is a bill in the KS state house right now. I believe it's #5778 but I could be wrong on the exact number. Anyway a proposal is being debated to make all school districts consolidate until they have at least 10,000 students. That is right 10,000!!! That means all of Leavenworth Co would be one school district if approved. Leavenworth, Lansing, Basehor, tonganoxie, and maybe I am missing one would all be one district. The goal is to cut out all the overlap of management, boards, etc and increase purchasing power, etc. Now I don't know that this will pass, and I would actually say I don't think it will, but something is coming to help schools with the budget issues they are facing. They are going to use virtual schools, etc to try to offset distance issues. Wow talk about shock the system.

Now compare that to the KHSHAA plan. Sounds like we might only have 1 class when we are done. I would love that from a competition standpoint. I will hold my comment from a education standpoint. I do know schools have to do something or they are going bankrupt. It also would not address private schools.

". . . KSHSAA is a money hungry beast!"

Once again, the KSHSAA is NOT proposing these changes; it is on the BofD agenda due to the requests made by the MEMBER SCHOOLS of THE FRONTIER LEAGUE AND NCKL.

Smokeycabin's suggestion of showing up at the BofD meeting (pro or con the proposals) on April 23 is the correct one. Written statements (pro or con) can also be submitted; but please no profanity or name calling and have someone proof before sending.
Sign your name and affiliation (coach, AD, parent, etc.)

Hey Will! Your wasting your time trying to reason with a democrat! (I presume they are democrats if all they do is complain how unfair it is when someone suceeds and wants some of it for nothing) You might as well be talking to your dog. Whoops! Your dog probaly would listen!

Who cares about the private schools - pretty small thinking I am sorry to say - team takedown.

Several of the private school parents might be your employer. That employer pays taxes on his business and his home so that schools can be built and teachers, administrators, police and fireman can be paid and the so the KSHSAA can exsist. That employer also gives out pay checks so you can pay your taxes on your home, car, retail purchases, etc. If your job is in the local, state, and/or a federal government - that is because of the private industries in your area or region helps provide those jobs. When private industries are struggling - the public services of government suffers. So expansion of the class system when the local, state and US economy are in the tank is about as
wrong as hiring 10 new employees when there is only work for 2 people.


Exactly my thoughts - "that is a joke and KSHSAA is a money hungry beast !"

There can be multiple high schools in one district so that is not necessarily the case. ...

VERY GOOD POST!!

This health care bill still has me steaming..........

If I understand .org's KSHSAA is a nonprofit 501-c-3 most likely. But since the majority of their funds come from member institutions (public schools) they should be subject to Kansas Open Meeting Rules and regulations, minutes, etc. It would be nice if a few TV stations (ESPN) , major news papers USA Today,
Wichita Eagle, KC Star, News reporters from all over the state make an appearance on both days.

My guess is they will have an open meeting on April 23, Friday at 4:00pm for discussion.

The action meeting they might try behind closed doors.
The Saturday meeting April 24th 9:00am - Final Action meeting needs to be open to the public and news media. They can close the meeting for Board Elections (maybe) because it is "considered a personel matter". But action on the decision to expand or reduce the classes should be open. I need some legal advice on this one.




Kansas State High School Activities Association
BOARD OF DIRECTORS AGENDA
MEETING LOCATION—KSHSAA OFFICE, 601 SW Commerce Place,
Topeka Kansas
Friday, April 23, 2010—4 p.m.
(hearings and discussion only)
Saturday, April 24, 2010—9 a.m.
(final action and Executive Board elections)

Members of the KSHSAA are proposing this. According to Dave Moreford, a MAJORITY of 4A coaches across the state support this proposal.

Even the most simple mind should understand that this proposal will increase costs. In fact, just adding another football team from each district a few years ago drove up costs. There isn't an athletic program in the state that produces revenue for a school. Creating more classifications is exactly the opposite direction we should be moving in when we have the fiscal issues we have right now. Instead of worrying about how to get more teams into the post season we need to be worrying about how to save ALL sports from being cut. We should be shrinking KSHSAA as there is an administrative cost burden that is beyond what is necessary.

Seriously NCKL and Frontier League...How do you propose we justify the COST of your proposal? How do you pay for it?

The problem with the entire public school system and KSHSAA is that the majority have never done anything but accept taxpayer dollars. They do not know how to generate revenue to pay the bills, they just ask for it and then freak out when there is none left for them...

Of course they are....it cuts the competition in half therefore doubling their chances of coaching a "State Championship Team". This is where the kids are getting this attitude, from the coaches. If it is too hard, water it down and then maybe we can win that state championship.

"Members of the KSHSAA are proposing this. According to Dave Moreford, a MAJORITY of 4A coaches across the state support this proposal."

Understand; the point I am making is the KSHSAA Staff are not proposing it; member schools are--specifically, the Frontier League and the NCKL.

Coaches, for the most part, are not the ones who will be voting on this proposal as most members of the BofD are principals and/or ADs with some BOE members sprinkled in. In the past with other situations which were B-I-G changes, such as as this, a "vote" of local BOEs, with a "ballot" signed by the local BOE President has been required, AFTER there was state-wide discussion and votes of member schools at the Fall Regional meeting which was followed by further consideration/discussion at the November BofD Meetings.

On the other hand, the BofD DOES have the power and authority to enact at the April Meeting.

I agree with Smokeycabin; if you have strong feelings on this matter and are able, attend the 4:00 p.m. meeting on April 23 at the KSHSAA. If you cannot attend, send a letter (no profanity or name calling).

Is this entire proposal setup to be jammed through - as the current (outgoing) Board members exit and before the new board members are elected.

You are joking aren't you? Seriously, there is generally a lack of coverage for nearly all Kansas sports outside of Football and Basketball though all the forms of media here. What in the world would make you think that the media would take some sort of serious interest about this?

Frankly I think people are kind of jumping the gun on this a wee bit early. Let me preface the next comment by saying I personally wouldn't support an initiative to increase the number of classes as I share the same opinion with several others that we already have too many classes in the state. I also believe that small school districts across the state should be forced to consolidate in order to try and trim the overhead from multiple sets of administration. This is especially true considering the budget shortfalls the state is currently facing. That being said, I do find it somewhat amusing that considering some of the other issues that have been raised on this forum, that all of the sudden people are up in arms about giving more kids more opportunities to participate in more competition watered down or not.

Just a month ago there was a big to-do about NFHS potentially changing the existing weight classes to try and facilitate more full brackets across the nation. And just now at the kids level people are upset because some of the brackets at State won't be full because existing by-laws do not allow alternatives from other districts to fill. This really isn't a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too.

What is boils down to is, it appears that a small group of schools/ads/etc have made a proposal, and that KSHSAA will discuss it and that will probably be the end of the story. KSHSAA has for many years been very slow to adopt radical changes to it's standard operating procedures. So what you really have to ask yourself is, do I seriously think that KSHSAA is going to make a huge change like this on a whim? Answer: NOT VERY LIKELY.

Relax a little and live your life, cause you only get to do it once.

"Is this entire proposal setup to be jammed through - as the current (outgoing) Board members exit and before the new board members are elected."

BodD members terms of office are staggered.

". . .KSHSAA has for many years been very slow to adopt radical changes to it's standard operating procedures. . ."

wrestlingspectat: I agree that generally this is true. However, there are some times when the KSHSAA surprises; for example when the BofD changed the summer coaching rules it was a "wham-bam" deal. A change of that magnitude would have NORMALLY been implemented AFTER a "guidance" vote was taken at the Regional KSHSAA Meetings along with votes by Members' local BOE's. This was the procedure used when the expansion of the football playoff system was implemented. For the summer coaching rule change neither of these things happened.

I agree with your assessment that this may not happen and it will probably not be done at the April meeting, but again, the BofD has the authority to take implementing action at their April meeting.

Someone was asking...A Sampling of Private School State Titles:

Baseball—
2009 St. Mary’s Colgan, Hayden
2008 Bishop Ward, St. Mary’s Colgan
2007 STA, Bishop Ward, St. Mary’s Colgan
2006 Bishop Ward, St. Mary’s Colgan
2005 Bishop Carroll, Bishop Ward, St. Mary’s Colgan
2004 Bishop Ward, St. Mary’s Colgan
2003 Bishop Ward, Salina Sacred Heart
2001 Hayden, Wichita Collegiate, St. Mary’s Colgan
2000 Wichita Collegiate, Salina Sacred Heart

Basketball Boys & Girls
2010 Bishop Miege, Collegiate, TMP, Berean Academy
2009 Bishop Miege, Collegiate
2008 Hayden, Wichita Trinity, St. Mary’s Colgan, Berean Academy
2007 Miege, TMP, Collegiate
2006 Atchison-Maur Hill-Mt. Academy G - Wichita-Collegiate
2005 Hays-TMP-Marian, Pittsburg-St. Mary's-Colgan
2004 Overland Park-St. Thomas Aquinas, Bishop Carroll, Hayden
2003 Shawnee Mission-Miege
2002 Shawnee Mission-Miege, Pittsburg-St. Mary's-Colgan
2001 Overland Park-St. Thomas Aquinas, B - Shawnee Mission-Miege, G - Shawnee Mission-Miege
2000 Pittsburg-St. Mary's-Colgan

Boys & Girls Soccer:
2009 STA, St James, St James
2008 STA, KC Christian, St James
2007 STA, STA
2006 STA, KC Christian, STA
2005 STA, KC Christian, STA
2004 STA, Maranatha Academy
2003 STA, Miege
2002 KC Christian
2001 Wichita Trinity
2000 Miege, Hayden, STA

Boys & Girls Golf
2009 Collegiate, Colgan, STA, Hayden
2008 STA, Hayden, Collegiate, STA, Hayden
2007 STA, Collegiate, STA
2006 Collegiate,
2005 Hutch Trinity
2004 Wichita Kapaun
2003 Kapaun, Collegiate
2002 Collegiate, STA
2001 Hayden, Collegiate
2000 Collegiate, Wichita Independent

Cross Country Boys & Girls
2009 Bishop Carroll, STA, Berean Academy
2008 STA, STA, Maranatha Academy
2007 Bishop Carroll,
2006 STA, STA, KC Christian,
2005 Bishop Carroll, KC Christian,
2004 STA, Bishop Miege, Bishop Carroll, Salina Sacred Heart
2003 Wichita Kapaun, KC Christian, Salina Sacred Heart
2002 Bishop Carroll, KC Christian, Hutch Trinity, Hutch Trinity
2001 Hutch Trinity, KC Christian

Volley Ball
2010 Miege, St James, Collegiate
2009 Miege, St James, Collegiate
2008 Miege, St James,
2007 STA, Hayden
2006 STA
2005 All Public!!
2004 Miege, Salina Sacred Heart
2003 Miege
2002 Miege
2001 STA, Bishop Carroll

You make a good point, however I would surmise that a rule change such as summer coaching which is very simple to implement and really has no financial impact to either KSHSAA or the State, is a far different concept than an expansion of athletic classes, leading to more competitions, more oversight, more work for KSHSAA, more post season events, more money spent, etc.

So private schools aren't focsed on football, track, and wrestling? I believe, if you sort this out, there is only a real dispartiy in GIRLS sports as a whole.

It still all boils down to those who are willing to spend the eextra dollar are also willing to spend the time and energy to get their kids to the top. The other fact that is missing is that private schoolsare almost exclusive to the metro areas. The rural areas have NO choice and maybe they are jealous?

Greg Mann,

Who is going to pay? How much more would it cost to do their proposal? Surely they have to cost justify their proposal?

Yes Sir Mr. or Ms. wrestlingspectat I am serious about the media being notified prior to KSHSAA Board meeting - absolutely.
I will give them names to contact and a set of questions the people of Kansas might like answered prior to their potential vote to add more classifications and how they plan to pay for it. At the 5A & 6A state tournament did you see how fast the management team of the New Intrust Bank Arena folks in Wichita changed their policy within 2 hours of massive pressure by the people using the facility. The all day pass was only good if you stayed in the building all day. Intrust management came up with the stamp the hand plan and more people bought hotdogs all day. Sometimes the policy makers need to get out of their offices and shovel some snow, dig a ditch, mow a little grass, so I am jumping the gun. Why did they start discussing this proposal back in the fall? If we do not ask questions - most likely will not get any answers.

I think you might have missed the point of my post, which was that the media really doesn't care about the general everyday workings of KSHSAA. No matter how many newspapers, radio stations, television networks you notify, you can be almost guaranteed it isn't going to make a newsworthy piece. I guess if you are really vigilant you may get a one paragraph mention at the back of the sports section of small town Kansas chronicle. If you are running for state office this probably isn't the plank to run your campaign on

Focus on the financial aspect. That effects everyone. Every homeowner! This proposal will cost more and we are facing fiscal cuts everywhere.

I don't speak for all the rural areas, but jealousy is not the problem. It's the idea of having your cake and eating it too, then being so vocal as to your plight that you verbally attack anyone who says anything about it. As noted above by Gary's list, the percentages of private schools winning championships from 2000-2010 is disproportionate to the percentage of schools that exist in the state of Kansas.

What's wrong with saying because private schools have open boundaries and therefore they pull from a larger population than the public schools, that they should in some way be brought to a level playing field as the public schools. Choosing to pay a higher tuition is not in itself a leveler in competition. No, it's not jealousy, but it doesn't seem right.

If I had to guess, I would say the additional classifications won't fly. Nor do I think you will see private schools put into a classification by themselves. What I do think will happen is there will be a multiplier enacted for private schools as is used in various other states.

"Who is going to pay? How much more would it cost to do their proposal? Surely they have to cost justify their proposal?"

Will Cokeley,

If you are talking about added costs for local schools for splitting 4A into two, it would probably be no more than currently.

If you are referring to the cost of the KSHSAA state championship events the costs of the actual state championships are covered by admission and entry fees.

The costs for the preliminary rounds in the various sports would not be any more expensive than they are now as all schools take part in the first round of state playoffs in all sports, (except football).

If you are referring to the cost of additional KSHSAA staff to oversee an expanded number of classifications, I do not see any additional would be required.

". . .very simple to implement and really has no financial impact to either KSHSAA or the State. . ."

Really not as simple as you may think: liability and summer pay, issues with the small schools who share athletes between sports.

You are right there were no costs to the KSHSAA, but the KSHSAA is supposed to take into consideration how changes will affect its member schools. In this instance I do not think there was consideration given.

It was a HUGE paradigm shift.

California has 1 classification... I am just saying

Greg,
If you add another class that is another state championship series. Are you discounting the cost for more schools to travel that would otherwise be staying at home? I would love to see tht numbers swhich show that post season is not a burden, financially, on schools and KSHSAA. I really don't think attendance will pay for golf, volleyball, cross country, tennis, baseball, etc. Just doesn't seem possible.

Really?! Amazing and good for them. Seems like a nice role-model for the rest of the states that have multiple state tourneys . . .

Let's look at some state wide numbers.

I count 356 KSHSAA member schools (2009/2010 School Classification). 32-6A, 32-A, 64-4A, 63-3A, 64-2A, 101-1A.

I count only 24 KSHSAA member parochial or private schools (P/Ps). Zero 6A, 4-5A, 3-4A, 6-3A, 6-2A, 5-1A.

Could have missed a school in either count.

A little simple division shows that only 6.7% of member schools are private or parochial. Thus, 93.3% of the membership are public high schools.

Check out the lists of current and past champions in each sport (reference Gary Siebel post above). Clearly indicates private and parochial schools have won far out of proportion state championships. In volley ball, soccer (boy and girls), base ball, soft ball, and basket ball are all dominated by the P/P schools--in some sports almost to the exclusion of public schools.

State championships only tell part of the story. Look at the number of P/P schools in the state semi-finals. I could only find info for 2009/2010. Boys soccer: 5A: 2 of 4 semis from P/Ps, plus the state champ; 4321A: 2 of 4 semis plus state champ. Girls soccer: only one class (54321A) 4 of 4 semis plus the state champ. Foot ball: 5A: 2 of 4 semi-finalists, 4A: 2of 4 semi-finalist plus state champ; 3A; 1 of 4 semi and state champ. Similar for all other sports in all classes. Not going to go through every sport. Think you can get the picture!

Why do P/P schools advance so far and win state championships?? Good question. Is it better coaching---not always--lots of very good public school coaches. Must be something else. Might be the athletes, and the number of extra good athletes at P/P schools. But, why are their athletes better than almost all other public schools in almost all sports. It has to generate that P/P schools have a disproportinate number of good athletes way out of wack with their expected 6.7% of the total of all HS athletes. Has to raise the question of how do the P/P shools get all those extra ordinary athletes.

Shoul be recognized there has been some very harsh feelings out there for a long, long time over trying to compete against private and parochial schools.

Just a couple of thoughts about the crap that P/Ps save the public schools money, that P/Ps are more efficient. How many P/Ps have special education programs, how many have alternative schools, how many have English as a Secondary Language Programs, how many stuudents do they have on free or reduced price breakfast and lunch. All of these type programs are hughe drains on public school budgets, administrators and staffs at all grade levels, facilities, transportation, etc. So, why should they now put up with inequities, real or perceived, in High school sports.

I think the proposal to split 4A into 4A1 and 4A2 and put all private and parochial schools into two separate classes has no merit. It would generate another 2 or 3 new state tournaments in each sport, and it would be costly.

Right now I would not see the benefits of modifying the current class structures into a 48 school'Big Class", a 48 school "Not So Big Class" and then doing something with the current 32 smallest schools in 4A.

The proposal to move private and parochial schools up to the next higher classification has merit. It maintains the current classification structure and state level play in all sports, and it costs nothing--no new state tournaments, no two stand- alone P/P classes with only 24 schools with an enrollment range of 17 to o/a 850 students. Will it bring equity in sports competition---would have to be better than what we see now.

I would think that Private and parochial school administrators, ADs, athletes, and yes, parents, would agree that this proposal might be the best in the long run for their schools, rather than some less pleasant alternative. Don't believe many would want to suffer the expenses of travel to KC, ST Louis, Denver, Omaha, Memphis, etc for every team to find opponents outside the boundaries of Kansas.

With all the emphasis on athletics under KSHSAA, its interesting that when you look at non athletic activities under KSHSAA (Debate, Scholars Bowl, etc.) that the private schools seem to outperform the public shools by even a larger margin. Wonder why that is? Could it be the students? They must be recruiting these students as well. Why isn't everyone at arms about this? Back to wrestling, if you look at the top 10 teams from each state tournament the last 4 years, your 6.7% would be fairly accurate. 2010, 4 of 40 top 10 team placers with none in the top 5. 2009 3 of 40 with none in the top 5, 2008 3 of 40, Carroll State Champs, and 2007 2 of 40 STA State Champs and Carroll 2nd.

I am currently trying to obtain an electronic copy of the KSHSAA Public and Private Study Committee conducted from March 2006 - September 2007. It must be a very long detailed report. I am trying to find out what public and private schools participated in the study and who were the committee members.

Below was a response to an e-mail I got earlier today.

The research referred to comes from the KSHSAA Public and Private Study Committee findings conducted from March 06 – Sept 07 and reported to KSHSAA in September of 07 in which their findings stated: “ Data demonstrates that private schools win a disproportionate percentage of state titles; private schools earn a disproportionate percentage of post season final eight, final four and championship game opportunities when compared to public schools. Historically, there have been schools – both public and private – that have attained and maintained a high level of success in a specific sport/ activity.” I am sure that if you contact KSHSAA that they could forward you a copy of the full report.

"If you add another class that is another state championship series. Are you discounting the cost for more schools to travel that would otherwise be staying at home? I would love to see tht numbers which show that post season is not a burden, financially, on schools and KSHSAA. I really don't think attendance will pay for golf, volleyball, cross country, tennis, baseball, etc. Just doesn't seem possible."

I am not discounting the cost of travel for another champ series; ALL schools NOW are involved in first round competition and tournaments (except football). The additional travel will be restricted to schools only in the new 4A and that will be a relative handful after the first round.

Post season is not a financial burden on the KSHSAA--that is how they make their money! I do not say it is not a financial burden on schools that host; I was the one who pointed out in November the costs of hosting a regional wrestling tournament in light of the current budget crisis and was basically ridiculed for not knowing what I was talking about. Point being, it is expensive to host post-season events but the proposal adds that cost to only those schools who accept the assignment.

As is usually the case in school sports, KSHSAA Football, Basketball and Wrestling revenue helps pay the costs of the sports which do not generate as much revenue. Aside from annual dues (I think it is $450/year/high school and $250/year/middle school) and nominal entry fees for post season entries (a percentage of which stay with the host), there are NO other funds that go directly from schools to the KSHSAA. So, you can believe it or not, but revenues from admissions at the state championship events and the percentage of the gates that go from local hosts of preliminary rounds to the KSHSAA pays the KSHSAA's bills. Heck, admission is even charged at the State Cross Country meet--or I should say it is attempted as it is kind of hard to charge admission at a golf course with so many places to enter (no fences!).

". . .its interesting that when you look at non athletic activities under KSHSAA (Debate, Scholars Bowl, etc.) that the private schools seem to outperform the public shools by even a larger margin." shudog

Anecdotal: My youngest son was on two scholars bowl teams here in Norton that placed at State; second in 4A in 2002 and 3rd in 3A in 2003. In 2002 we lost the championship to a private school and in 2003 we were the ONLY public school to make the final four.

Shudog:

Wrestling is only one sport, and the only sport not dominated by the paochial schools. Why is This? Wrestling is an individual athlete's sport than accumulates team points based on the individual athlete's success. Would not expect the small number of parochial school wrestlers to stand out as much against the large total number of public school wrestlers.

Contrarian,

Junction City HS is not a parochial school and yet we were undefeated state champions in football the year before last. Isn't it Olathe South that has a bunch of football titles and they are a public school? I imagine the same can be said of many basketball teams that have won state titles. I know on the MO side, Rockhurst (parochial) is very hard to beat at football but so is Blue Springs (public).

It doesn't appear to me that your argument holds much weight.

Am I missing something?

Did not say JC HS was a parochial school. The KSHSAA list of member schools shows a class 1A JC Saint Xavier. Assume this is a parochial school!

Because you (JC) and Olathe North are 6A schools you do not compete with parochial schools at state tournament level play (there are no parochial or private 6A schools).

You need to go look at 54321A history of state level competition and then perhaps you would understand what other postters and I are saying. And yes, it does hold weight for those shools, especially the kids, who year after year see their sport dominated by only a very few schools.

OK. I did not know that 6a had no private schools. Educate me please. What are these parochial schools that have dominated? I'm not being a smart a-- . I'm just curious.

I could definitely see the validity of our argument if I saw a list first.

Thanks.

There are lists on this forum and the post on Class proposal (parallel discussions).

I am not going to make another list. If you are intersed in this discussion check out the KSHSAA current and history of state Champions for each sport. Also need to look at the current year STate Tournament brackets to see the number of Parochial schools in the semi-finals of each sport in each classification, in each gender sport.

As a start, look at boys and girls soccer, volly ball, and base ball, soft ball--these are the most dominated by parochial schools. Other sports are similiar, but are not dominted as much as these sports.

If you do not know the details or the history, how can you come on here and post intelligently! Go do some home work!!

Asking questions is posting intelligently. That is one of the many ways that people learn. BTW, volleyball, softball and baseball are one word words.

Thanks for helping me learn more about this subject.

Dean

PS: It is hard to do homework when one has a job to go to in just a short while. I was just asking a few questions. Take a sedative and chill out. ;-)

No dog in this fight and don't really care...I have better things to do right now but this one observation and I'm out.

Seems to be a big push to allow MORE competition points so teams can have weekday duals, allow more travel, small schools get beat up for not seeking out the best competition but the irony of bashing this proposal because of the costs?

Every state contest draws a bigger crowd and more interest and makes money.

California doesn't have one football state champ, basketball state champ, etc.

I wonder how big the crowds would be at State if most schools had only one state qualifier?

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight either. Interesting points you brought up.

I guess if I look at the NFL, every playoff game most likely sold out (ie. lots of state tournaments) and did the Superbowl (one state final).

Again, I don't care much either way. Just trying to stimulate thought/discussion. Better to get back to work now are I will be using my mind to ponder how to get a new job! ;-)

I think you are dismissing this element too easily. I think good coaching and program development has a lot to do with those state championships. I may not have this exactly but I think Gwen Pike is the Bishop Miege girls volleyball coach. I believe she has been there about 30 years in that role and I believe she has about 19 state titles. She just won her 1,000 game this year. Terry English the Miege girls basketball coach has been there about 34 years with about 16 state titles. These two Miege girl coaches are very good and have definitely been a major factor in the success of these teams. They have developed winning programs. They have been a major factor in their team's success and I believe they would have been successful at both public or private schools. I believe Tony Severino the Rockhurst high school football coach also won a state championship at SM Northwest before he took the Rockhurst High School position.

The same can also be said about the impact of very good public coaches like Van Rose the SM Northwest cross country coach who has about 31 boys and girls state titles. The SM East boys swimming and diving coach has a strong long term success with state titles too. There have been numerous success stories like these in specific Kansas high school sports both in public and private schools that have successful long term coaches who have developed their programs over a period of years.

You also made a statement that wrestling is the only sport not dominated by the parochial schools. I do not agree with that either. The parochial schools have had some success in football but they far from dominate it. There are other sports too like track and field that they do not dominate.

That multiplier may be enacted but I am not sure how much it is going to change things. I still think Aquinas is going to have dominant boys and girls soccer teams, Miege girls will still do very well in volleyball and basketball as long as Gwen Pike and Terry English are coaching. Bishop Ward will still have a successful baseball team as long as Coach Hurla is there.
The private schools may win less state titles but my guess is that they will still win their disapportionate share. Aquinas won in wrestling in 6A and 5A in 2005 and 2007. Hutchinson has won football titles in both 5A and 6A. It is hard to beat good coaching and dedicated athletes.

Just to clarify - Hutchinson is a public school - correct?

Thanks.

Yes it is a public school but my point in mentioning it in my last post is to point out that good teams with good coaches and dedicated athletes at either private or public schools are going to probably be successful no matter what class they compete in. Hutchinson's current football team with its great coach and athletes is a prime example of that as was the Aquinas wrestling teams of 2005 thru 2007. Both of these teams have won state titles both in 5A and 6A. Hutchinson's football team has done it multiple times in both classes.

Contrarion: I think you will find that the reduced and free breakfast and lunch program is funded by the USDA (agriculture dept) and cost USDA more money than ALL farm subsidies combined.

They might still be successful, but they might have to do it at a higher classification depending on their enrollment numbers. Using the two largest classifications as examples is probably not appropriate since they have the fewest private schools in them. It is the classifications from 4A on down that are most effected by private schools.

Understood and agreed. Was just checking for my own clarification. I was pretty darn sure Hutch was a public school but sometimes the context of others writing and the way my brain works - sometimes, I need to double check.

Thanks.

So, how will that work?? You take the top 32 schools and put them in 6A. Uh oh, one is STA??? Do we kick them out?

Ok lets say there were none in 6A. The next 32 go to 5A. Uh oh, BC, STA, KMC etc are in 5A so they get moved up to 6A. I assume this will move the same number of schools out of 6A into 5A. Then we go to the next 64 in 4A (by today’s classification) and then you move those schools up so some 5A get moved to 4A. And so on… Then you have an even bigger disparity in student populations in 4A. Great idea.

Free and reduced meals are still managed and served on a day to day basis by the schools and in the school. So it does not take district money, it does take time and effort to get the kids enrolled, to prep and serve the meals, etc. Perhaps time and effort that could be best used for academics.

But, these are very likely the only meals many of these kids may get each day. My wife is an educator and I know she and a whole lot of teachers have a lot of desk drawers filled with snacks and treats they give out to the kids. They also spend a lot of time, effort and their own money collecting and cleaning coats, hats, gloves , shoes, shirts, etc to students in need.

I guess a related question is How many kids on free or reduced price meals at our affluent suburban parochial schools. Bet not many! Be nice to attend or work in a school where the biggest problem is probably dad wouldn't let Johnny or Bambi drive the Beemer to school today.

Ok. Good coaches and good programs win trophies. No arguement. Stll doe not account for the disparity in the state qualifers or champions in all sports from the parochial schools.

Only two ways too really resolve this issue. 1) Have a coach exchange between some parochial and public schools and measure the results or differences. 2) Have a toal student athlete exchange between schools----parochial scool kids to play for public school coaches at the public school--and vice versa. After this is all done, what was accomplished. Nothing!

You are trying to rationalize if you do not accept that the parochial school teams are loaded and you are ignoring a problem with the level of athletic achievement in those schools.

How would Aquinas or Miege do in boys and girls soccer if they were reclassified to 6A. Probably still pretty good. But, those KC area 5A schools-with soccer-are not near the same as the 6A schools Aquinas or Miege would have to play in the 6A Soccer Regionals to get to State. Bonner Springs, G/E, Harmon, Schlagle, Turner, Washington, Wyandotte, Lansing, Pittsburg, and Mill Valley are no way close to the Shawnee Mission, Blue Valley, or Olathe 6A schools in soccer. Same situation for the Wichita area 5A parochial schools if they had to qualify in the Wichita Regionals. Same can be said for several other sports.

contarion: You see to have some hatred in your heart for any of the schools that are high achievers and that they are able to get good teachers to work for less pay because they are working with children of parents (PLURAL) WHO HELP THERE KIDS AT NIGHT, discipline them and don't worry about getting a lawsuit filed against them for not allowing them to come to school looking like a pimp or prostitute. My public school mandated uniforms. I drive by a Jr. High and grade school every AM and PM and it's a disgrace for these kids to dress like 15% dress. Don't you think that's a distraction for the rest? All the excuses you offer for sub-par achedemics and sports only enable the child to stay in that envirorment. You need to realize that money does not equal a good education. If it did, I'd be a bum now as one of 9 children. It doesn't take money to help a child study or compete in a sport, if you REALLY want to compete. Someone will step up. Sorry, to pick on you but I just get fed up with excuses for failure. Thanks, Matt

MFE. Do you have your white hood and sheet on. The only thing you apparantely know about inner city schools is what you see as you drive by on th way to your lily white world. Plus, you can see a lot of the same at our suburburan public schools. And, I have seen many of your boys and girls at various activities and it seems that away from school they dress and act just like the city kids---and they play their RAP music just as loud. Must be nice to live in isolation.

I am guessing there are a few beemers in the Blue Valley West parking lot. I have not seen one in TMPs. We have rich kids and poor kids but it is hard to tell them apart because they are all in uniform. We have a sped program, I mean Catholic kids have larning disabilities too but that teacher is paid by the coop, same one that pays the sped teachers at Hays High, LaCross & Ellis. We also have free & reduced, my own children would qualify if I signed them up. If you look back about eight years ago, TMP girls were 0-20, then Alan Billinger came in and they got better, same with softball.

I am guessing there is not much beef here with the Mighty Monarchs but your angst against Miege and STA affects us pretty good.

First of all, Why argue with Contrarian? He is just trying to get everyones goat. Fishing are we? He doesn't really care one way or the other. He is just a grumpy, long winded, old man that likes to stir the pot. Ignore him and he will go away.

Pickup trucks with hay haulers, same same!

Your right Beeson. Why argue with someone with so much hate in his heart for some of us who got off their butt and made their school better. The kids deserve better than some cry baby blaming race and money for their own failures and by that, giving the kids a reason for failure. I, my kids and grandchildren all went to public schools all 12 years. I loved it and loved the standards that private schools set for us in many ways. For a while they kicked our butt but we changed and now it's the other way. You can tell who the people on this site are that are a "positive" influence on the kids they are around. You also can tell who the "whiners" are who want to bring others down to their level so they can now compete. I'm through posting on this subject! It's a waste of time trying to reason with a negative person. Have a good day! Thanks, Matt Contrarion: If you knew me, You would be embarassed for your stupid racist remark!

Illinois Population 12,400,000 with 4 classifications in basketball and 3 in wrestling

Kansas Population 2,800,000 with 4 classifications

Minnesota population 4,900,000 with 3 classifications

Missouri population 5,600,000 with 3 classifications

Wisconsin population 5,600,000 with 3 classifications in wrestling and 4 classifications in basketball

I will check the number of high schools in each state.

Mfe.

Contrarian--Bill Mason here.

If I you knew you, WHY would I be embarassed for my stupid stupid racist remark!

Not aware I made any racist remarks. It was your words about the kids, I assume black kids, looking and acting like pimps and prostitutes.

I am going to make a wild assumption that you are a token black at a big suburban parochial school. Why else wou you attack some kids----or, you really do have a white hood and sheet!

I did not bring money or special education into the issue. I think it was actuallly Cokely who is always spouting about money, public school inefficiency, etc., and it was he who for some reason also brought SPED to the table (something like SPED could not be much of a distraction in public schools). Yes, learning disabilities are SPED, and you may have some LD kids in your schools. How many severe CP kids in crutches or wheel chairs do your schools have? How many BD kids? How many kids on reduced /free meals. I have yet to see ananswers on these questions from a 5A or 4A KV area suburban private school. If SPED is not a problem go talk to the Kansas budgeteers and the SM, Olathe and BV school districts.

This forum stated out as a discussion abour the possibility of KSHSAA changing the current school classification system. Some how it has very lately degenerated into name calling and accusations, and very little related to the KSHSAA. At least Husker Fan and Cokely ( in some cases), and a few others, use some facts or cogent points to try to present the parochial school side of the issue--the same as I and several others try to present the issues of percieved or actual points/facts concerning the disparity in private versus public school athletics (percieved to be because of the recruitment--promotion as Cokely calls it- by private school and by the fact there are no restrictions on the area that private schools can draw or recruit students. I suffer no angst towards Aquinas or Meige--they are just near bye to where I live and I am more aware of their athletic successes.

At lastly, I included my name.

The Public and Private School Study Committee
Report to the KSHSAA
September 26, 2007

There were 18 committee members 14 from public schools and
4 from private schools on the committee. I will get a full copy of the report as soon as possible.

Meeting dates were:
March 27, 2006
May 1, 2006
February 14, 2007
June 21, 2007
September 13, 2007

Conclusion of the report:

The Public-Private Committee Study Committee recognizes and agrees that inequities exist between member schools; however, not all inequities fall between public and private lines. The numerous factors referenced in this report help distinguish one school from another and provide differing opportunites for school communities to achieve and grow. The Committee challenges each school to dedicate its efforts in working to achieve goals and principles of a healthy interscholastic program.

I wrote this on the youth forum tonight. Just something to think about. For most of us with military ties today, times have changed. We rely on each other to get through the fight. It doesn't matter who you are or where you are from, whether your parents were affluent or whether they lived in a mobile home (mobile mansion as I like to refer to it). I am sure that there was a time that "no one gets left behind" didn't always stick. It does now, and the ones that don't believe in it, need to find another occupation.

If a private school is in 6A by the original count what happens? If the new rule is put in place they would bump up to UNCLASSIFIED??!! Seriously, the Frontier League hasn't addressed that one yet! Maybe they just roll back down and join 1A.

At this time there are no 6A private schools in Kansas and if there were they would stay in 6A; it is the "unlimited class" of high schools!

Their proposal doesn't address that issue. STA has recently been in 6A. I am still laughing at the reshuffling that will occur. Preposterous!

I think a few years back-at least 10 or more- Aquinas was in 6A for a short time--they were there due to their enrollment numbers. Since that time several new schools have been built across Kansas that came in or grew up to 6A: Olathe East, SM NW, Olathe South???, a couple of Blue Valley HSs, others???, forcing Aquinas down to 5A. I think Olathe North was a 6A, forced down to 5A, and grew back into a 6A.

STA has been 6A since olathe south, olathe east, sm northwest, and all the bv schools have been built.

olathe north was 5A only in football and only for one cycle directly following olathe's splitting that school.

Did you make a boo boo typo when you said STA has been a 6A since.......

SM Northwest was built in 1969 and I believe they have been in the top Classification since that time.

STA won the 6A State Wrestling Championship in 2005.

No i did not. olathe south was opened in 1984, olathe east 1996, sm northwest in 1969, blue valley west in 2001, and olathe northwest in 2003. STA won 6A state championship in 2005.

OK. History of Champs shows they wom 6A wrestling in 2005. How or Why 6A that year. Years prior to 2005 years since History of Champs shows they are 5A in all other sports. They are now shown as 5A.

Change my SM NW to Olathe NW. Think they came into being within tyhe last few years

as i mentioned in my last post they came into existence in 2003, still prior to 2005

Private school teams may face tougher competition

BY JOANNA CHADWICK
The Wichita Eagle
A survey of Kansas high school administrators by the state's governing body for high school sports found that many think private schools have an unfair advantage over public schools.

So the Kansas State High School Activities Association's board of directors will consider two proposals next month that would either make private schools compete by themselves in postseason play or make them compete at a higher enrollment level.

No immediate changes are likely, but proponents of the changes say the discussion is important. Either change would radically alter the structure of the KSHSAA's current classification system.

"This would be one of the most significant deviations from the way we've done business in the past," said Bill Faflick, athletic director for the City League, which is the city's seven public high schools that have athletics plus parochial schools Bishop Carroll and Kapaun Mount Carmel.

Of the two proposals, the one seemingly more popular would move private schools up one classification. Carroll, with 819 students in grades 10-12 this year, and Kapaun, with 667, would move from Class 5A to 6A, where the smallest school this year has 1,066 students.

A private school such as Wichita Trinity Academy, a small Class 4A school, would move up to 5A.

"We have only about 300 students, and now we're competing against schools that have 900?" said Trinity headmaster/principal Matt Brewer. "We can't play football against Hutchinson. We'd be putting kids at risk."

Clay Center principal Mike Adams, a board of directors member who helped draft the proposal, said it would equalize schools, especially because private schools aren't limited to the same boundaries as public schools.

"We have to take the kids that walk through our doors," Adams said.

In Classes 4A, 3A and 2A, the public schools are rural while the private schools come from urban areas. Trinity is part of the Central Plains League with the Independent School and eight rural schools.

The second proposal is more dramatic with seemingly less chance of passing. It puts the state's 26 private schools into their own playoff structure in all sports. It also divides Class 4A into two divisions, essentially creating 11 postseason classes for football and eight for all other sports.

States such as Texas and Tennessee have separate public and private state championships, but each has around 300 private schools.

"I think it would be unfair to put the 26 schools together and have us supposedly play Berean Academy," Carroll president Tish Nielsen said. Berean Academy, in Elbing, is a 2A school with 103 students in its three upper grades.

But many public schools don't think it's fair to compete against private schools.

"I think it's become more of an issue in the past 10 years," said Campus principal Myron Regier, who is on the KSHSAA board of directors.

Possible explanations include increased emphasis on high school athletics, earning college scholarships and winning state championships.

Private schools, which make up 7 percent of the association's member schools, are successful at tournament time. In the current school year, Wichita Collegiate has won Class 3A titles in football, volleyball, girls tennis and boys basketball.

At the Class 5A girls basketball tournament, three of the final four teams were private schools, and the boys 5A title was won by Bishop Miege, in Roeland Park.

Private schools counter that plenty of public schools have similar traditions — Heights became the first school in the state's largest classification to play for a title in football and boys and girls basketball, and Hutchinson has won six straight football titles.

"Of everything completed so far (this school year), privates have won almost 32 percent of all championships, and many public schools feel that private schools have an advantage," Clay Center's Adams said.

2006 comparison

In 2006, the KSHSAA created a committee that studied the private-public issue. The main finding was that private schools "earn a disproportionate percentage of postseason final eight, final four and championship game opportunities when compared to public schools."

"A lot of people thought we stopped short —'You need to go ahead and do something about it,' " KSHSAA executive director Gary Musselman said.

Yet the focus on state championships concerns some.

"If that's how programs are being evaluated, they're missing the mark," Faflick said. "(Sports is) for connecting kids to school, teaching life lessons, teaching teamwork, discipline. All are evident if they win or lose at the end of the year."

Gardner-Edgerton principal Tim Brady, part of the proposal to split private schools from championships, is frustrated watching private schools dominate. He links that dominance to recruiting.

Allegations of recruiting and private schools giving athletic scholarships to entice top athletes often crop up. But Musselman said he has found no evidence of recruiting in his 22 years on the job.

Carroll's Nielsen is distressed at the questions of recruiting.

"I don't want them to question our integrity," she said. "I want them to know we're following the rules and guidelines."

Long road to change

It is doubtful that April's board of directors meeting will be more than a discussion. If the board of directors votes to agree to either of the proposals — or comes up with its own proposal — there are still hurdles.

A majority of the board would have to vote to put it on the agenda for its next meeting, in September, and a majority of all schools in all classes must approve it.

Discussion is fine with DeSoto principal David Morford, who was part of the proposal for splitting public and private championships.

"It's getting talked about. That's our goal,'' he said.

"We don't necessarily have the right answer, but we want to have the dialogue with everybody to have a solution that's workable to everybody."

http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/26/1242039/private-school-teams-may-face.html

Read the conclusion of the 2006/07 report by The Public and Private School Study Committee.


The Public and Private School Study Committee
Report to the KSHSAA
September 26, 2007

There were 18 committee members 14 from public schools and
4 from private schools on the committee. I will get a full copy of the report as soon as possible.

Meeting dates were:
March 27, 2006
May 1, 2006
February 14, 2007
June 21, 2007
September 13, 2007

Conclusion of the report:

The Public-Private Committee Study Committee recognizes and agrees that inequities exist between member schools; however, not all inequities fall between public and private lines. The numerous factors referenced in this report help distinguish one school from another and provide differing opportunites for school communities to achieve and grow. The Committee challenges each school to dedicate its efforts in working to achieve goals and principles of a healthy interscholastic program.

BY JOANNA CHADWICK
The Wichita Eagle


A survey of Kansas high school administrators by the state's governing body for high school sports found that many think private schools have an unfair advantage over public schools.

Does anyone have a copy of the recent SURVREY and the supporting data tables and what questions were all asked about the success or non-success of various athletic programs? Did the survey include only public school administrators? Was it a phone survey or a well thought out written survey approved by the board?

"Does anyone have a copy of the recent SURVREY and the supporting data tables and what questions were all asked about the success or non-success of various athletic programs? Did the survey include only public school administrators? Was it a phone survey or a well thought out written survey approved by the board?"


RECENT SURVEY or the one that was done in 2007. I know of no RECENT survey.

The survey in 2007 was written.

ALL MEMBER schools received it.

Was it well written? I thought it was, you may think otherwise.

About 15% of P/P schools were represented on the special committee and less than 5% of the Public Schools were represented.

Another way of looking at it from the numbers perspective is that if you are referring to the same 18 member committee that smokey mentioned in his post above, where 14 were public and 4 private that means 78% were public and only 22% private. Now that is probably more than fair to the private schools based on their actual percentage in the membership, but in a straight up or down vote the private schools will not have much of a chance in succeeding.

Greg, did the committee take into consideration special situations where you have exceptional long term coaches like Gwen Pike, volleyball at Bishop Miege and Terry English girls basketball at Bishop Miege? I think you have to because good coaching and program development due to good coaching is a factor that I think that some people do not want to acknowledge enough and tend to dismiss. The parents of athletes though realize for sure the value of that coaching and that is true whether it is public or private schools. Why is Miege so dominant in girls volleyball and basketball in comparison even to other private schools in the area over the last thirty years? Is it not because of Terry English and Gwen Pike? Why is Bishop Ward such a dominant baseball team even over other area private schools over the last several years? How much of a factor is their excellent coach Dennis Hurla in that success? How big of a factor is Craig Ewing's excellent coaching in the Aquinas soccer team's success in their boys and girls teams success? It seems to me that the easy explanation for the public school interests is that the disparity is being caused primarily due to the private school's ability to enroll students from a broader area but it fails to adequately recognize the amount of students that private schools lose to public schools due to tuition and other financial factors, good coaching, and a possible difference of committment from the athletes themselves.

By the way Contrarion, Aquinas was 6A for a few years and has great soccer success at both 6A and 5A in that period. I am pretty sure that all the 6A soccer teams would like for them to stay at 5A. Here is their state championship track record:

2003 6A 1st
2004 6A 1st
2005 5A 1st
2006 6A 1st
2007 5A 1st
2008 5A 1st
2009 5A 1st Also ranked as the No.1 team in Nation in final poll

So you can see they varied between 6A and 5A but once St. James was established they landed in 5A in 2007 and have stayed there since then.

Vince,

My numbers reference representation of the member schools. I was not part of the committee so I cannot speak to what was and was not considered/discussed and/or what rabbit trails they followed in their meetings.

The report states the number of championships won by P/P schools is out of line with the number of P/P schools. No remedial action was recommended BY THE COMMITTEE. Given the overwhelming numbers of public school representation on the committee it is obvious to me the group worked to consensus and not by vote.

At the meeting where I the heard the report of the committee's work, the presenter was a member of the committee; a lady principal of a parochial high school (sorry her name and school are lost in my aged memory).

Jimmies and Joes or X's and O's?

Greg:

They are both important but in a long term success record like that achieved by the SM Northwest cross country program, the SM East swimming/diving program, the Hutchinson football program, the old SM North, Lawrence, and Manhattan football programs, and the old Wyandotte basketball program you can not deny that the X's and O's is the dominant factor in the program's long term success. Here is an interesting article that I found on your saying:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Winning-Abo...&id=1170288

Youth Football Coaching Facts

When coaching youth football we have all heard the adage "It's not about the X's and the O's it's about the Jimmys and the Joes. In essence what that saying is trying to tell you is; Youth Football is all about talent levels, it has nothing to do with coaching or schemes. The next time you hear that saying, please consider the source. Is he a youth football coach that consistently has poor performing teams? How convenient to put the onus solely on the players for the teams success. By doing this the coach can avoid any personal responsibility for his teams failure or success. He might as well be playing lotto, because what he is saying is the success or failure of his team rests solely on who is living in his area, is of age and has signed up for the team.

Lack of Consistency In the "Talent" Crowd

Let's take a few steps back and start at the base of this irresponsible premise:

According to these guys ALL youth football players are created uniquely different, some are very good, some are average and some are poor. The premise states that because of these wide variations in player talent levels, the productivity of the teams they play on varies in direct proportions to these players unique abilities.

Now how about the coaches? Since it is 100% about the Jimmies and the Joes, coaching and schemes don't matter much at all, I guess all coaches and schemes MUST be equal.

So God created all these football players uniquely different with various amounts of athletic ability, intelligence, drive, determination and decision making ability BUT when it comes to football coaches God decided nope, I'm going to make all these guys EXACTLY alike. If that is correct, what happens when a football player who the "Jimmys and Joes" crowd says is so uniquely different than anyone else becomes a coach? Does this unique person all of a sudden changed into a clone of all other coaches? Does God say "You are different when you have that helmet on, but once I see you with the helmet off and a whistle around your neck, I'm going to change you into a clone of all the other coaches out there?"

Of course not, this is some silly premise made up by coaches whose teams don't do well to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Does talent matter? Sure it does, but so does coaching and so do schemes. We have all seen very athletic and physically imposing teams lose to less talented teams, it happens every week in youth football. There are coaches in our league both mine and with our opponents whose teams win no matter the level, age group or talent levels of the teams they have. In my youth football organization I knew that any team I gave to Stacy B to or Jay S would do very well and they always did. The talent levels varied greatly on these guys teams every year, but their results varied only slightly. The same can be said of coaches like Monte O, Bill, Rich D and Scott P who coach against us. They win year in and year out, no matter the age group, division or talent levels.

Just like players, coaches can get better and all's it takes is a commitment and some time to educate and prepare yourself to be a better coach. Obviously you are on right path if you are taking the time to be on this site and read this article.

What to Do

When your youth football team plays well, give the players all the credit, when they play poorly accept the blame yourself and learn from the experience.



By the way I am not personally opposed to the multiplier effect for most sports. I think in a sport like football that requires more players that it needs to be a lower factor. I still think even with the multiplier that the good coaches will still have a dominant track record in state championships. SM Northwest's cross country coach Van Rose would win a lot of state titles no matter what level he was coaching as would Craig Ewing the Aquinas soccer coach.

IMO the biggest advantage of private schools is that they do not have the riff raff that public schools do that count towards their enrollment, but contribute little towards anything extra curricular.

That is unless you consider smoking extra curricular.

Most kids at private/parochial schools come from supportive homes and want to and are expected to be a productive part of the system. 10-15% of their enrollment is not transient, completing less than even one school year.

If you removed all of those kids from our district, there is absolutely no doubt that we would lower at least one classification. That is why a multiplier makes sense to me.

Why bring up bowling?

Can't deny that good programs win lots of trophies. What's a program? Starts with kids/athletes. Athletes start in community rec and club sports, including CYO, PAL, etc---also includes parents who encourage, support, transport kids to activities. Then comes coaches who can put kids together to make teams. If a team wins it may establish a tradition, which brings more kids into youth sports who then want to play in and with the winning tradition. BUT, without the kids, tradition, etc, coaches are nothing but teachers drawing additional pay for "coaching???" The issue before us is kids--not coaches!!

You mention some successful public school programs. When Lawrence High football was steamrolling everyone their enrollment I think was close to 3000 student---or at least twice any other school. They had enough kids/athletes to each year to roster two championship team. Public school dynastys come and go. Lawrence built a second high school and neither Lawrence or Free State has come close to the records of the old Lawrence HS. Yep, Hutch has been on a football roll for the last five or six years--don't see where they did much before then.

These public school achievements no way compare to the disproportionate state qualifiers, placers and championships of private and parochial schoos.

I know that you are pretty convinced that the private schools need to be handicapped in some way and I realize you are far from the only one that feels that way.

I still can't believe how easily you dismiss the value of a great coach in a team's success. The very example that you bring up of the Hutchinson football team only being on a roll for the last six years is for me one of my primary examples of the value of a great coach in a team's success. I am including a link to an article that will detail to you the state of the Hutchinson football program before Randy Dreiling arrived in 1998 and how he turned it around. I think you should be able to see after reading that article that Great Coaches do make a big difference in programs. If you still don't think so please explain to us why you think Hutchinson's football program fortunes turned around if it was not due to Randy Dreiling becoming their coach.

http://www.vype.com/centralkansas/general/3223

Also please explain to me why SM Northwest is able to have such great cross country success (I believe they have 31 girls and boys state track titles during Coach Van Rose's career). Explain to me in detail what it is peculiar about the SM Northwest area that gives it such an advantage in enrolling great cross country runners. Tell me why you do not think this type of success is also not due to Great Coaching.

Explain to me why Nebraska's and Oklahoma's football program faded after Tom Osborne and Barry Switzer retired.

Not all the private school athletic programs are having great success not even in the schools that have one or two successfull programs. For instance Bishop Ward has baseball but what other sport is it having that type of success in? I think what you will find is that the most successful private school athletic programs are the ones that have Great Coaches and Great Coaches do make a difference whether it is public or private.

I don't think we can ever handicap Great Coaching. Most of us realize that great coaching is a big factor in a program's success and it has also been a big factor in the success of many of these long term successful private school athletic programs in Kansas.

As I said public school dynasties come and go. Private schhol dynasties seem to go on forever. It is just not the number of state championships, it is the filling of the state level brackets with the private school team. Go look at the brackets. If there are multiple private schools in a class in a sport, at least 1/4 to 1/2 of the schools will be private.

Not to knock their team or school, my middle son went there and played there, but look at Leavenworth HS Football. This has to be the worst record in Kansas. I know of a 26 year list of good coaches. Could not win. May a game or 2 some year, followed by no wins for the next couple of years. Why all these losses. A big percentage of the kids are military dependents. Dad will only be stationed at Fort Leavenworth for a couple of years. A good kid comes in as a freshman--coaches work with him and he show promise--dad is reassigned and the kid moves. Or a kid comes in as a senior and the coach gets him for only one year. All good coaches who burn out and leave after three or four years. Or, use Leavenworth basketnall. That coach has been there for a long time and every year produces a good team. How, most of his players are not military kids, so they are in the Leavenworth system through middle and high school.

Yes, coaches do make a difference. But, I still contend kids are the main factor in successful program.

Lets us example of a super exceptional private school sports dybnasty. Rockhurst HS. Rockhurst HS sit on the east side of State line Road in KC MO. Across the street is the State of Kansas (the Shawnee Mission USD). I do not know but I would guess that there are student (and athletes) from Kansas who go to Rockhurst. Hell of an attendance area---South KCMO plus a good chunk of Johnson County, KS. If not then I am wrong---perhaps Missouri has a rule that prevents out of state residents attending MSHSAA menmber schools.

You, in your support of the private school dominance in athletics, refuse to rationaize why they are so, and by emphasizing the coaches, are ignoring the student athletes and how so many of the top few get to your schools year after year. Is it Cokely's promotion, is it recruiting, is the unrestricted residence area. What is it. It is just not Bill Mason who thinks this, but a whole lot of public school coaches, administrators, athletes, parents and fans.

Some questions need to be asked and answered.

I have nothing personal against private or parochial schools. We are not Catholic. We sent our youngest son to a local Catholic elementary school--until we pulled him out because of a wacko nun teacher and a wacko nun principal. The son was drawing skateboarder symbols and the nuns were adament he was drawing swastikas. Had the nuns ask him what a swastika was and he said he did not know. when I asked the nuns how many of the 5th graders could explain immaculate conception, thats when we parted company!

New Proposal will have 112 state champions in Kansas and 560 state placers in the 14 weights over 8 classes. That is if I read the proposal correct. That is a lot of hardware. The powers to be say it will not cost KSHSAA more money. They do say it will cost individual schools (or their members) more money for post season activities - tough call during huge statewide budget problems. The money has to come from somwhere.

The way I read this proposal: is public schools will go from 4 classes to 7 classifications and the private schools will be in their own division or 8th classification.

Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
eight classes- 6A, 5A, 4A1, 4A2, 3A, 2A, 1A and All Private.
Class 6A shall include the thirty-two (32) public
high schools with the largest enrollments; Class 5A the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A1 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A2 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 3A the
next sixty-four (64) public high schools; Class 2A the next
forty-eight (48) public high schools and Class 1A , the
remainder public high schools; and an all Private school
classification.


Below is the Link to KSHSAA April, 2010 Board Meeting and items being voted on.

http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf


Kansas State High School Activities Association
BOARD OF DIRECTORS AGENDA
MEETING LOCATION—KSHSAA OFFICE, 601 SW Commerce Place,
Topeka Kansas
Friday, April 23, 2010—4 p.m.
(hearings and discussion only)
Saturday, April 24, 2010—9 a.m.
(final action and Executive Board elections)
Bylaws, XVI, amendments, state:
Section 1: The bylaws and articles of incorporation may be amended at any regular or called meeting of the Board of Directors
by a majority vote of those present of the Board of Directors, and the approval of the Kansas State Board of Education.
Section 2: KSHSAA Board of Directors’ agenda items must be presented in writing to the Association Executive Director 40 days
in advance of the September and April meetings. Only those items submitted by the following will be recognized:
1. Board of Directors members
2. Executive Board, provided the item received a majority vote of those present
3. Superintendents, principals and board of education members of member schools
4. Board of Directors may add items, which were not previously published on the agenda, at the time of the meeting, provided
it is done by three-fourths vote of those present.
On page 22 of the KSHSAA Handbook, under Rules and Regulations Governing Grades 7-12, the first paragraph concerning
AMENDMENTS reads as follows:
The rules and regulations for grades seven through twelve (grade school, middle school, junior high and senior high) may be
amended at any regular or called meeting of the board of Directors by a majority vote of the entire membership.
In the 1981 legislative session, the following, which applies to unified school districts, was passed:
Any member who abstains from voting shall be counted as voting against the motion or resolution. If a member
announces a conflict of interest with regard to the issue, the member may leave the meeting until the vote on the issue is
concluded and the member who abstains from voting thereby shall not be counted as having voted. K.S.A. 72-8205.
(Unless otherwise indicated, underlined portions are recommended changes in rules.)
Friday, April 23
1. Call to Order and Welcome. - President
2. Roll Call, Announcements and Introduction
of Members - Executive Director
3. State of Association Remarks.
- Executive Director
4. Introduction of Agenda Items. - President
5. Public Forum. – (speaker registration
required)
6. Break
7. Discussion on Agenda Action Items.
-Board of Directors
8. Adjourn
1. Each Handbook rule is divided into three sections:
Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)
Section 2: Senior High Regulations
Section 3: Middle/Junior High School Regulations (includes students in grades 7 and 8, middle
school and junior high)
2. Unless stated otherwise, articles passed by a majority of the members present will become effective
upon publication of the minutes.
2 April Board Agenda
Saturday, April 24
9. Call to Order and Roll Call
10. Approve September 16, 2009 Minutes
KSHSAA Bylaw - ARTICLE XII
Classification of Senior High Schools
Section 1: A classification system shall be established for
senior high schools involved in interscholastic activities under
the supervision of the KSHSAA.
Sec. 2: The classification system for each activity is based
upon criteria developed and approved by the KSHSAA Board
of Directors.
Sec. 3: The Executive Board may combine or separate Classes
at any time if the number of participating schools in an activity
so warrants.
Sec. 4: Modification of the classification system may be proposed
by the KSHSAA Board of Directors, the Executive Board, or
by petition from a member school. A petition must be signed
by the principal and superintendent of at least 20 percent
of the schools in the Classes modified by the proposal and
presented to the KSHSAA Executive Director by December 1
of any school year. Any proposal, before it becomes effective,
shall be approved first by the KSHSAA Board of Directors,
and second, by a majority of all schools affected and a majority
of all Classes affected. When only two Classes are affected,
the proposal must have a majority support from each Class.
11. Modify Rule 5, Classification of Senior High
Schools, Section 2, Article 6, to read as follows:
Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
six Classes—6A, 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A and 1A. Class 6A shall
include the thirty-two (32) high schools with the largest
enrollments; Class 5A the next thirty-two (32); 4A the next
sixty-four (64); 3A the next sixty-four (64); 2A the next
sixty-four (64); and Class 1A, the remainder.
Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
eight classes- 6A, 5A, 4A1, 4A2, 3A, 2A, 1A and All Private.
Class 6A shall include the thirty-two (32) public
high schools with the largest enrollments; Class 5A the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A1 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A2 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 3A the
next sixty-four (64) public high schools; Class 2A the next
forty-eight (48) public high schools and Class 1A , the
remainder public high schools; and an all Private school
classification.
FOOTBALL EXCEPTION: Classifications, for the purpose
of determining district football assignments, shall be
based on the total enrollment in the school’s ninth, tenth
and eleventh grades as submitted to the KSHSAA on the
date established by state statute for official enrollment.
For the purpose of district football, utilizing this exception,
member schools will be classified as follows:
Class 6A: 32 largest member schools playing 11-Man
football
Class 5A: 32 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 4A: 64 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 3A: 64 next largest member schools playing 11-
Man football
Class 2-1A: All other member schools playing 11-Man
football
8-Man: participating schools will be assigned to two
separate Divisions, as established by the Executive Board
NOTE: For 8-Man district football participation, assignments
shall be limited to those schools with a maximum
enrollment of 100 students in grades 9, 10 and 11. (See
Rule 35-2-3, Football.)
Class 6A: 32 largest member public high schools playing
11-Man football
Class 5A: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 4A1: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 4A2: 32 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 3A: 64 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 2A: 48 next largest member public high schools
playing 11-Man football
Class 1A: All other member public high schools playing
11-Man football
8-Man: participating member high schools will be assigned
to two separate Divisions, as established by the
Executive Board.
Private: participating member private high schools will
be assigned to at least two separate divisions, as established
by the Executive Board. (8 man Private schools to
be assigned by the Executive Board per Article XII sec. III)
NOTE: For 8-man district football participation, assignments
shall be limited to those schools with a maximum
enrollment of 100 students 9, 10 and 11. (See Rule 35-
2-3, Football.)
Schools not requesting a football district assignment will
have their position filled in each category by the next
school moving up in enrollment.
Class 1A Exception: Class 1A schools shall compete in two
separate divisions in volleyball, basketball and scholar’s
bowl for post-season and KSHSAA state championship
competition. (Effective 2010-11)
Following annual classification and determination of
schools assigned to Class 1A, the half of the schools with
the larger enrollments will be assigned to Division I and
the half with smaller enrollments will be assigned to Division
II. If Class 1A has an odd number of schools, Division
I will be assigned one more school than Division II.
Source of Recommendation: Frontier League (2-26-2010)
2010 3
12. Modify Rule 5, Classification of Senior High
Schools, Section 2, Article 6, to read as follows:
Art. 6: In classifying high schools for activity purposes, those
composed entirely of boys or girls shall double their enrollment
figures. For example, a boys’ school comprised of 125
students would be placed in the same classification as a
coeducational school with 250 students. In classifying high
schools for activity purposes, private or parochial schools
shall be placed in the next classification above based on
student enrollment as currently outlined in Article 1 and
Article 3 of Rule 5. For example, a private or parochial
school classified as a 2A school based on enrollment would
be placed in one classification above or 3A for all activities.
Source of Recommendation: North Central Kansas League
(2-4-2010)
13. Modify Rule 30, Seasons of Activities, Section
2, Article 1, to read as follows:
Art. 6: No school-organized spring or summer practice or
school-organized summer camps, shall be permitted. (See
Rule 20-1-1e, Awards.)
a. A coach may organize and administer a one-week (per
sport) camp for his/her players only, provided the following
guidelines are met:
(1) The school shall not be involved other than to approve
the use of facilities, dates and to be assured by the
coach there will be no violations of KSHSAA rules and/
or regulations.
(2) It shall be conducted following the conclusion of the
second semester Saturday before Memorial Day and before
Sunday of Standardized Calendar Week #3.
(3) Member schools, the coaches and coach aides they
employ, may not conduct contact football camps. (See
Rule 10-1-6 (c), Qualifications of Coaches and Rule
35-1-5, Football.)
Source of Recommendation: Executive Board (1-14-2010)
14. Modify Rule 30, Seasons of Activities, Section
1, Article 6(4), to read as follows:
Art. 6: No school-organized spring or summer practice or
school-organized summer camps, shall be permitted. (See
Rule 20-1-1e, Awards.)
a. A coach may organize and administer a one-week (per
sport) camp for his/her players only, provided the following
guidelines are met:
(1) The school shall not be involved other than to approve
the use of facilities, dates and to be assured by the
coach there will be no violations of KSHSAA rules and/
or regulations.
(2) It shall be conducted following the conclusion of the
second and before Sunday of Standardized Calendar
Week #3. (Subject to change per previous agenda item.)
(3) Member schools, the coaches and coach aides they
employ, may not conduct contact football camps. (See
Rule 10-1-6 (c), Qualifications of Coaches and Rule
35-1-5, Football.)
(4) School uniforms or player equipment may not be
used. Exception: Use of school owned football helmets at
the school coach’s non-contact, one week camp, is permitted.
If school facilities (gymnasium, fields, balls, bats,
etc.) are used, the coach must lease them per board of
education policy.
Source of Recommendation: Centennial League (12-1-2009)
15. Elect Executive Board Members from the Board
of Directors per Bylaw Article V.
Sec. 2: Board of Director members shall elect Executive Board
members at their spring meeting in the categories listed,
to two-year terms. Members in each category shall elect
their own representative. Board of Directors organizational
members are eligible for election in their school’s
respective category.
a. Classes 6A, 4A, 2A, in even years 3
b. Classes 5A, 3A, 1A in odd years 3
c. Middle/Junior High Schools in even years 1
d. Board of Education in odd years 1
e. State Board of Education in even years 1
TOTAL 9
Vacancies in the above categories shall be elected by their
respective representatives within sixty (60) days after
notice of such vacancy. They shall fulfill the unexpired
term of that position.
Sec. 3: After the nine category representatives have been
elected, where necessary, at-large representatives shall
also be elected by the entire Board of Directors from its
membership to fill the following voids:
a. If available, both genders shall be represented.
b. If available, a minority member (e.g. Native American
or Alaska Native; African-American; Asian or Pacific
Islanders; or Hispanic) shall be represented.
c. If available, a superintendent shall be represented.
d. Geographically, each congressional district shall be
represented.
At-large representatives shall serve one-year terms.
The above creates an Executive Board of nine (9) to fourteen
(14) members.
In filling vacancies in Sec. 3 on the Executive Board, all
Board of Director members shall select a qualified member
from the Board of Directors to fill the vacancy not more
than sixty (60) days after notice of such vacancy. Each
appointee to fill a vacancy shall hold office until the next
regular election date when a successor shall be elected.
4 April Board Agenda
CLASS 6A
(2-YEAR TERM)
Ath. Dir. Ron Commons, Lawrence
Ath. Dir. Bill Faflick, Wichita USD 259
Robert Gonzales, Manhattan
Ath. Dir. Steve Harms, Overland Park – Blue Valley Northwest
Ath. Dir. Michelle Kuhns, Wichita – South
Prin. Tony Lake, Overland Park – Blue Valley West
Ath. Dir. Penny Lane, Topeka – Washburn Rural
Prin. Cara Ledy, Wichita – South
Asst. Prin. Christina Lentz, Leavenworth
Prin. James Mireles, Garden City
Prin. Gwen Poss, Olathe – Northwest
Prin. Myron Regier, Wichita – Haysville Campus
Ath. Dir. Bill Stiegemeier, Shawnee Mission – South
Prin. Ken Thiessen, Wichita – East
CLASS 4A
(2-YEAR TERM)
Prin. Mike Adams, Clay Center Community
Prin. Blaise Bauer, Girard
Prin. Steve Blankenship, Pratt
Prin. J.B. Elliott, Perry – Lecompton
Prin. Tracy Giddens, Haven
Prin. David Morford, DeSoto
Prin. Sherry Reeves, Basehor – Linwood
Joyce Siniard, Kingman
Ath. Dir. Bobby Taul, Topeka – Hayden
Prin. Kent Wire, Chanute
CLASS 2A
(2-YEAR TERM)
Prin. Larry Anderson, Alma – Wabaunsee
Prin. Doug Beisel, Oskaloosa
Prin. Patrick McKernan, Seneca – Nemaha Valley
Prin. Alan Stein, Hill City
Prin. Galen Unruh, Elbing – Berean Academy
Supt. Bill Walker, Mankato – Rock Hills
Prin. Bob Warkentine, Solomon
Prin. Rod Wittmer, Oswego
Prin. Paul Zuzelski, Syracuse
MIDDLE/JUNIOR HIGH
(2-YEAR TERM)
Prin. Tavis Desormiers, WaKeeney
Prin. Bruce Krase, Whitewater – Remington
Prin. Mitch Lubin, Wellsville
Prin. J.D. Nelson, Leavenworth – Warren
Prin. Keith Pauly, Clearwater
Prin. Richard Proffitt, Eudora
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
(2-YEAR TERM – Elected by Kansas State
Board of Education)
This position is filled by action of the Kansas State Board
of Education. The representative must be a member of the
Kansas State Board of Education.
16. Approve proposed meeting dates for the 2010-
11 school year as follows:
Fall:
Wednesday, September 15, 2010
Thursday, September 16, 2010
Spring:
Friday, April 29, 2011
Saturday, April 30, 2011
17. Recognitions & Closing Announcements –
President & Executive Director
18. 2010-11 Executive Board – Organizational
meeting
(15 minutes following adjournment

I think 321A would still be together as one class in wrestling?

I think 321A would still be together as one class in wrestling?
_________________________
Rick Williams
Colby High School

The proposal doesn't say that. It was acrossed the board in all sports according to the proposers. Also the verbage does not say that.

Art. 1: All member senior high schools shall be divided into
eight classes- 6A, 5A, 4A1, 4A2, 3A, 2A, 1A and All Private.
Class 6A shall include the thirty-two (32) public
high schools with the largest enrollments; Class 5A the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A1 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 4A2 the
next thirty-two (32) public high schools; Class 3A the
next sixty-four (64) public high schools; Class 2A the next
forty-eight (48) public high schools and Class 1A , the
remainder public high schools; and an all Private school
classification.

Water me down. It is a tsunami tidal wave.

The KIAAA (Athletic Adminstrators) recently voted in favor 27-4 for splitting the 4A class into two divisions for post-season assignments. This is a proposal that they would then take to the state.

Given that, I would suggest if most wrestling coaches/fans are in favor of keeping 4A intact as is, that we get ahead of the curve and ask our AD's to please include some kind of exception for wrestling.

The KIAAA (Athletic Adminstrators) recently voted in favor 27-4 for splitting the 4A class into two divisions for post-season assignments. This is a proposal that they would then take to the state.

Did they also vote to move private schools to their own division or would private schools 4A2 move to 4A1? What does KIAAA stand for? Kansas _____ Athletic Administration Association or what does it stand for?

No, they actually voted down the proposal to split the private schools to their own division. The vote was 39 - 53, I am not sure why so many voted on this but not on the split of 4A.

Brent: did all reps at the KIAAA vote on the 4A proposal, or just the 4A reps?

Smokey: The "I" in KIAAA = Interscholastic

Smokey,

You reference Rule 5, Article I in regards to classification of high schools.

I would refer you to page 20 of the KSHSAA Handbook: Article XII: "Classification of Senior High Schools" Based on sections #2 & #3 I do not see 321A being divided for wrestling any time in the near future. One less thing for you to be agitated about.

"One less thing for you to be agitated about." Just a little!
I want answers.

The KIAAA vote 27 -3 for one thing (4A1 and 4A2) I thought there were 64 schools in 4A. Another vote was 39-53 to keep private schools was that a KSHSAA vote. The numbers do not add up. Help me out on who gets to vote for what.

Does the KIAAA also have a Website and how is this organization funded? Members - I know that.

i don't think any private or public school has dominated forever. some seem to think that private schools success goes on forever. name one that has. public schools come and go too, nothing lasts forever.

this whole proposal, further adds to the pussification of our kids.

it's just not right, but what do i know.

Smokey,

The KIAAA vote was at the KIAAA State Convention. Therefore it was only a vote of those present. I was not there but I am guessing the 4A proposal was voted on by the 4A ADs who were present and the P/P porposal was voted on by all the ADs in attendance since there are P/P schools in every classification except 6A.

KIAAA is funded by individaul member's dues and KIAAA convention registrations.

"KIAAA is funded by individual member's dues and KIAAA convention registrations." - In the school budget does it show up as professional fees/dues, meals, lodging, etc. The school pays their salary - which is funded by - well you know.

I guess at a time when the Kansas House has school district consolidation bills back on the table acrossed the state that may be affective in 2012. It just doesn't make sense to put a larger financial burden on individual high schools.

Kansas House to Debate School Consolidation
HB 2704

TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) - Kansas House members are scheduled to debate a bill that would reduce the state aid for some small school districts.
The bill on Tuesday's calendar is viewed as a means to force districts with enrollments of fewer than 200 students and fewer than 200 square miles to consolidate. They are the same provisions that were used in the 1960s when Kansas last forced school districts to consolidate.
Those smaller districts would see the state aid given to low-enrollment districts reduced to the same level as those with 200 students. The change would take effect on July 1, 2012.
As originally proposed, the bill would have included districts with fewer than 400 students, but was amended by the House Education Committee to the lower limit.
---
School consolidation is HB 2704.
On the Net:
Kansas Legislature: http://www.kslegislature.org
(Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
AP-NY-03-09-10 0502EST

The bill you reference would affect four school districts.
It has been sent to a conference committee; probably will not see the light of day again this session.

The 1960's consolidation criterion were as follows: (1) at least 400 students OR (2) at least 200 square miles OR (3) at least $2 million valuation

I was informed this week that the proposal to split 4A was poorly written BUT was only intended for football. The thought is, that once rewritten that proposal will pass. So all the other sports will likely stay as they were before. This does not effect the proposal to bump up private schools one class.

Good info 02. That is what I was thinking was the case; nothing else about the split was making much sense.

Even big schools feel pinch

Even at the handful of schools that usually run a surplus, times are tough. At Ohio State, ticket and concession sales are down. "The behavior of our customer has changed, and it will be that way for quite some time," athletics director Smith says.

"It just says the economy sucks out there," says athletics director Lew Perkins of Kansas, where expenses outpaced revenue for the first time since 1988, according to the department. Athletic departments are "spending what they have to. What's happened is the revenues, because of the economy, are going one way and our expenditures — travel, all those kinds of things — are going up and up and up. Tuition goes up. You have no control over it."

But Perkins acknowledges having control over what KU pays coaches, and its highest-paid by far is men's basketball's Bill Self. In 2007, Self was guaranteed $1.6 million. That season, the Jayhawks were a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament and advanced to the round of eight. In 2008, they won the national title as Self's alma mater — rival Oklahoma State — was looking for a new coach. He spurned Oklahoma State, and KU responded with a new deal that this season guarantees him nearly $3.4 million.

"We felt like after a national championship ... we wanted to put him in the top five or 10 highest-paid coaches," Perkins says, "and that's about where he is right now."

Perkins says the budget crunch will ease. "We're not in a panic mode at all," Perkins adds. "We think we're going to be fine. Everybody, Ohio State and all these other schools, I think we just have to manage our dollars differently than we did before. ... But you can't stop the operation."

At Kansas, the men's basketball players took a few more trips by bus instead of plane this season. Michigan State cut overall expenses in 2009, and conference meetings across the nation this spring are expected to focus on ways to trim budgets. An NCAA panel is reviewing the recent proliferation in athletic department employees. "We're trying to make (the department) as lean and mean as possible," Houston's Carlucci says. "But we're paying for talent. We're in a competition for fans (in the Houston area). When Sumlin wins, we can count on more ticket sales."

Carlucci paused, then prefaced his next comment with a rhetorical question.

"Is this heresy? It's like any other entertainment business."

The success of private schools in high school sports can be attributed to a number of things. I'm sure I have missed some, but a few are listed below:

1. They can have a bigger pool to draw from.
2. It is easier to recruit. Even if it's only the parents.
3. It is easier for a kid to transfer if they are not happy with their school
4. People who are willing to spend the money to send their kid to a private school may be a competitive over-achiever, raising an over-achiever kid.
5. Expectations. Private schools have a history of expecting more from the kids in all areas.
6. Parental and community support. People who are willing to pay to send their kids to private schools, tend to get nvolved.
7. Private schools do not have to accept kids who are problems
8. Participation rates in private schools tend to be higher.
9. Many of the parents who have the money to send their kids to private schools are also paying for coaching and other help. This is particularly true in Soccer. It has become an affluent sport with paid coaches most of the year.
10. Tradition builds interest. Rockhurst, like Hutch, has had success. That success will spark interest in kids who would go there anyway, but also kids who may not have gone there otherwise.

Considering that there are a number of bigger private schools that are Catholic schools, there are some unique things the Catholics have or do.
1. Catholic youth sports have been big for a long time. Particularly Football, Basketball and Volleyball. The Catholics have leagues for kids in these sports starting in 3rd grade. The public schools start in middle school, junior high or high school. In many cases, the Catholics have been playing longer and together longer.
2. Tradition. Sports are big in Catholic communities. A Catholic High school without a state championship in football is considered a failure. Someone told me that Aquinas had 40+ seniors on the football team a couple of years ago when they lost to Hutch in the state championship. There is no way they all got to play.

All of these things CAN also be seen in public schools. Goddard and Emporia have strong wrestling programs for many of the same reasons. When Glen Wier(?) was coaching football in Olathe, kids were moving into the district to play for him. It does happen. It has been reported that in affluent areas, parents are offered jobs and the people doing the recruiting explain to the parent what the best schools is, ie moving their kid into that district. In general, you could argue a similar advantage for affluent school districts over less affluent school districts.

Missouri does have a rule that bumps the private schools up a class. This was primarily driven by the success Rockhurst has had in football. While Rockhurst is an example of a school that probably should be bumped up a class and can compete in that class, there are other private schools in Missouri that are negatively impacted and some sports, even at Rockhurst, that are negatively impacted. Rockhurst has NEVER won a wrestling state championship. I don't think they have ever won a regional. I'm not sure if they have ever won a tournament.

I don't think the smaller private schools have the same success or the "advantage". Last I heard, Christ Prep in Johnson County was playing 8 man football. They must not be doing too much recruiting if they can't field an 11 man team. Bishop Ward in Johnson County has had a strong baseball program, but I don't thin they have excelled in any other sports.

My point here is that not all private schools have an advantage and the reasons for the "advantage" are varied. People need to think those things through before "solving the problem".

Good point. Because of the success of a few private schools, the rest will be pentalized? What are we telling our kids? Maybe we can all learn something from the programs that are successful, both private and public. Private schools are not the only schools that receive students out of a district. I know of kids traveling 25 to 30 miles to attend public schools that live in a different district. Thats in Western Kansas. How much does this happen in the KC and Wichita areas? Will the multiplier be applied to any school that receives students out of district?

I guess they will be trying to divide the public and private universities into separete National Basketball Championships since two private schools were in the finals! Butler and Duke. This was an enjoyable game to watch. The players all were very disciplined in controlling their emotions and it wasn't all about "ME". The public schools could do the same thing if they had the guts to slap the sh!!!! out of the trouble makers and make them be a TEAM!

My My MFE. Such language. I quess we could start by slapping the public school kids you said looked and acted like pimps and prostitutes.

I have figured out why private church based schools win so many high school championships nationwide. Students teachers, coaches and parents of these schools must be more Godly, and therefore God wants and makes them win.!!!

HAS to be the reason!!!

To hamper their wining would be un-Godly and sinful and would probably result in all us public school heathens being sent immediately to hell (do not pass GO and do not collect $200)(are Christian non-believers heathens and Muslim non-believers infidels--or is it the other way around?????can't keep it straight!)

Every chance you get, you mock God, heaven and hell as if they were imaginary. I hope you live a LONG life Contrary!

Very humorous post, but in no way necessary... i understand it is fun to mess with believers, but this is not the place....

My post had nothing to do with religion. Only with the need for discipline to have a sucessful environment for education and most other things in life. Bringing others down a notch does not raise you to a level making you more sucessful. Have a good day!

I am not mocking God.

I am mocking all those who continue to offer a multitude of weak rationalizations and step around why there is such disparity between the accomplishments of parochial and public schools in athletics.

As for MFE, his wanting to slap the sh** out of a few people, or calling some of the kids pimps and prostitutes, is the lowest comments I have read on this board. Perhaps MFE is one of those more Godly people and he earns Heaven Points for his spreading the word!!

I must say you are one idiot or a closed minded person or just trying to get under my skin. I never called any kids "pimps or Prostitutes" I said they were dressed like it and the TV visual version of one is one I was referring to. I never brought up religion EVER. And I have never attended a private or parocial school nor have any of my children or grandchildren. Never had to as we were always involved in our public schools to insist on a civil learning envirorment. That said, we tried to emulate sucess and the private schools is where we looked to for that. Maybe you would be better served to do the same rather than bringing others down to your level. Thanks, Matt Have a good day.

No, I am not just trying to get under your skin.

I do think your comments about pimps and prostitutes and slapping the sh** out of someone are about the most tasteless I have seen on this board. I can be crude and rude, but not to that extent. You brought race to the forum, not me. Never said you said anything about religion--other than you seemed to support all the arguements from the parochial perspective. And, you have still not said why I would be ashamed of my (Contrarian's)racial comments (which I have never made) if I were to see you.

I have never brought up race or made and racial remarks! I'm finished trying to have a civil conversation with you because you want to make this about race and religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. I didn't say "see me" I said "know me" and my history in business is why. Good By!

How do you hamper their "wining"?

what is wining? i grew up right across the street from a parochial school, and have never heard of wining. i bet i hampered it quite a bit though, i was bigger in the 6Th grade than their seniors. when i brought my brother along for backyard football (he was in the 3rd grade) they couldn't believe it. they whined quite a bit when he kicked their can. there was a bunch of winning for the public school kids. yet no one ever wined.

I am far too lazy to look through this thread.. but what does the title have to do with any of it....

I still can'yt find the spel chcker!!!

I still can'yt find the spel chcker!!!

no we dont know if you are saying winning or whining

win, winning, wining, whin, whine, whining, whiny.

Way to many choices.

Since RichardD is a wheel in this organization, maybe he can get spell checker and thesaurus functions added to to the forum.

back to the the subject at hand.

Any more news about this proposal?

I was told that once the splitting 4A proposal was re-worded to only include football it would likely pass. In addition, the thought was that bumping all private schools one class would likely pass. I asked about a multiplier vs the bumping one class and there didn't seem to be the support there for the multiplier.

Will the bumping of one class apply to all the schools, public and private that have students outside of their districts?

So if the privates get bumped one class...TMP Marion, Wichita Independent go 4a, SJA, Bishop Ward, Sumner?, and Hayden go 5a, and KMC, STA, Bishop Carrol and Miege go 6a. That could change some things up. Shumacher would move to 4a and make life miserable for somebody, like wise for Cokeley and Moeder to 5a. and Dryden, Maki, and Penka from KMC, Williams and Mason from STA, and whatever BC has to 6a. They are studs in any division.

I do think if schools are beating you, get out and outwork them, regardless of size. At least in wrestling the studs at these schools are not studs because they go to private schools, in most cases they have just out worked people.

It will be interesting.

Sumner is not private...

I wasn't sure about Sumner that is why I put the question mark. As kids plan for next year several of the private school studs moving will change some peoples thinking is my only point.

That and I think we just need to outwork somebody if they beat us not try to move them. Look at SJA volleyball or STA soccer, they will not be effected one bit by moving them up in class. They beat everybody in every class.

It is ironic that the public school educators are so uneducated.

Sumner Academy is a USD 500, KCKS inner city, 5 year public HS. USD 500 tests all 7th graders. Students who score high enough, and have no history of discipline problems, are invited to attend Sumner. Failure to maintain the required grade point, or to be a discipline problem, get the student sent to his KCKS neighborhood HS. Sumner student ACT and SAT scores are on a par with Shawnee Mission and Blue Valley Districts

The student body is about 40% Black, 40% Hispanic, and the remaining 20% white, Asian, and others. The school is in down town KCKS in the old Black HS.

The Curriculum is heavy in math, scienc, and English. Most of the students are enrolled in IB or AP programs. Sumner has been recognized nationally by U. S. News and World Report 6 or 7 times in the last 10 years as a U. S. Top 100, Gold Medal School. Great school and great kids.

Sumner is not a 4A sports power. The are pretty good in football, and tough every year in basketball (4A boys State BB champs in 2000 and 2010)(remember, these are inner city kids in inner city sports). In other sports they are spotty to very poor!

See no reason they should be bumped to 5A.

.

Please explain your comment, an if applicable, refer to the comment/educator you are criticising.

Yelling fire in the movie theater make no sense!!

Contrarian

Had to use a dictionary for criticizing--criticising!

I wish RichardD would hurry and get us--me --a spell checker.

Why does it matter if they are good in sports or not? Moving private schools up a class applies to all the private schools, good and bad in any sport. Still wondering if private schools are moved up, will the public schools with students outside there district also be moved up? As the Baseball coach at TMP, we have struggled at 3A the 2 years I have been the coach with a 13-27 record. Our football team won 1 game last year and the basketball team was below .500. We have over 70 international students that don't even know what a football or basketball are much less knowing how to play the sports. Some people fail to see the big picture. There are great teams, both private and public. As our principal, Mr. Dewitt stated earlier, we will continue to tell our student athletes to work hard and do what it takes to win, no matter where we are put.
Brian Schumacher

If that is the case then why do we have divisions for any sports? Why not play 6A against 1A? To take it further, why have weight classes in wrestling? If the 03lber wants to work hard enough he can beat the 215# stud.

A side note regarding Sumner Academy: It could be said that, athletically speaking, they are already at a bit of a disadvantage compared to most other schools in the state. As Contrarian mentioned, the students are required to maintain a minimum GPA (2.5 I think - I could be wrong), or they must attend another school. Behavioral issues are treated similarly. The resulting attrition rate between 8th and 12th grades is approximately 50%. The number of freshmen and sophomores who attend school there greatly exceeds the number of juniors and seniors, and the composition of their athletic teams reflects that. The upside is that Sumner Academy is a terrific college preparatory environment for kids who are disciplined and motivated. When you see one of their teams take the mat/court/field, you can be assured that you are looking at a high quality group of kids.

FYI: U.S. News and World Report has them listed as the 62nd best high school in the country this year.

The need to blame the lack of success by public schools on private schools. Instead of digging in and seeing why teams or individuals REALLY excel lets just say it is because they can get students from a larger populous, which by the way is very false. Many public schools permit out of district transfers, are we going to hit them with a multiplier? It is just more class warfare. The have nots want to blame the haves instead of working harder to become the haves. That is the American Dream. The Frontier League and NCKL want to "level the playing field" by pushing the top down instead of pulling the bottom up. Instead of rules, regulations, and policies that they HOPE will make things fair they need to be teaching our youth that life isn't about fairness. It just isn't. The educators in the public school systems, in general, only know how to spend tax money. They are inefficient government mechanisms burdened by increasingly liberal philosphies. Instead of leveling the playing field they are going to polarize the communities. I got an email yesterday from the DeSoto school district requesting feedback on a superintendent search. My answer "Lets go without one!!" Heck we could use that $150,000 plus to hire more teachers, fund sports programs and help our students. Public schools are burdened with TOO MUCH overhead because the educators are by-in-large uneducated.

i've seen a 125lber and 135lber beat a state placing hwt. just sayin. 6a vs 2a in football would be bad, but i think wrestling and that other winter sport would be ok, even track and baseball. certainly golf, cross country, tennis, etc. great idea, it would bring credibility to ks sports. especially if a 1/2a beats a big school, wow.

Will,

Have you stepped in a public school classroom in recent years. What qualifies you to say public school educators are uneducated? Are you just being a snob with your expensive private schools The way you make it sound public schools should bow down to your superiority? It's absurd what you are saying here. Public school kids work just as hard but because some would have parochial schools bumped up a class due to what many feel are an unfair advantage you lash out calling them liberal and uneducated. This has got to stop. Stop crying foul when you have the best of both worlds. The options you have are not available to everyone. The parents that care about their children make sacrifices for the betterment of their children, you are not the only one. Peter Sierant from KC Turner sent this to me:

"If I took the worst ten percent of my school off the list of enrollment and replaced them with an elite ten percent, everyone would benefit. Public schools have not choice. Private ones do. Think of our athletic programs if we eliminated the worst 10 percent and replaced them with an elite 10 percent; for wrestling that would equate into a team trophy at state."

By the way Pete attended Rockhurst High School [1985] and teaches for an at-risk school district. There is a disparity.

I can't speak for all public schools but I know I bust my butt to make my kids better which includes working the kids hard, it's not just a religious puritan work ethic held exclusively to private religious affiliated schools.

We can agree to disagree on some things but when you call public school teachers uneducated you show your disdain for the public schools. You of course have that right to that opinion but please don't lump us all (by-in-large) under this category because you are wrong.

Uneducated on this particular topic. The advantage isn't as defined. The advantage comes from those who choose to send their kids to a private school not from wider population base. The penalty of a multiplier is unjustified and "uneducated". It is an overreaction. Furhermore, you know as well as I that there are public schools with programs that attract kids from outside of their district. What are we going to do about those? Olathe has open enrollment so kids can attend any of the Olathe schools are we going to give them a multiplier too? The point is that the penalty suggested is not all inclusive. Private schools just become an easy target.

I don't disagree with what you or Pete say but that issue is more of a rural versus metro area issue not a public versus private. I know kids who went to Southwestern Heights instead of Liberal even though they were in the Liberal school district but no one is looking to apply a multiplier to Southwestern Heights. Any program that has success will attract student athletes from outside of their normal boundries. Don't just single out private schools because you feel they are an easy target. If you think that is ok then I want a 100% tax credit for the property taxes I pay that I don't get to utilize. Again, you neglect to admit that a clear advantage to the public schools is that they receive ALL of the tax dollars paid by parents who send their kids to private schools and don't consume a single dollar of those resources. Argue that Brent. The classification system isn't broken, the public school system is. You cannot punish the private schools because you don't operate as good of a system. That is ridiculous.

What I find ironic about Cokely's ironic statement, is, I will bet, that a review of the transcripts of parochial school teachers would reveal that they are graduates of the same college and university schools' of education as public school teachers. Have known a few of each and most are not uneducated. Have known a few of each who were certainly graduates of Way Below Normal (do you even know what a Normal is/was?).

Cokely rants about pubic school administration and its costs. My understanding is that the higher level administration for Catholic schools is at the diocese. How many people that is I have no idea. Doubt the Bishop does it by himself!

Cokely wants his tax dollars back. Another try for public funding of private schools.

How many parishes credit parish donations to the catholic school tuition of the students whose family made the original donation to the parish--and the parents then claimed the parish donation as an itemized income tax deduction. Have catholic friends who told me this common.

A few years back our local 6A public high school had an outstanding advaced studies program--assume they still do. Thinking I might want to become a teacher after a change of careers, I monitored several of these classes. They were discussing "stuff" I had not seen in college math, chemistry, and biology. Students at the local Catholic HS attended these AS classes, plus other classs subjects not presented in their HS. No objection to their attendance, parents paid taxes--but do not think the district got credit for them for the State allocation.

So Olathe has an in-district openenrollment policy. So what? Tell us which Olate School has a virtual sports dynasty in any Sport. Perhaps Olathe North in football. But still not every year nor the dominance of STA in soccer (boys and girls), SJA in soccer and volleyball. And it is not just State championships, it is the number of private schools in each class who fill up the district and state level brackets. In an 8 team bracket in team sports--2, 3, and perhaps 4 of the qualifers will be private schools. If private schools make only 6+ percent of KSHSAA member schools, 2 of 8 qualifers is 25%, 3 is 37% and 4 is 50%.

Something is not right in Denmark!!!! (Shakespeare for all you other public school dummies--dam--was that from Hamlet or King Lear).

Contrarian, same thing applies to ALL Private schools. Not all of them are virtual sports dynastys but you want to pentalize all of them. Do you realize the size difference this will cause by moving the private schools up one class? If this happens, Junction City- St. Xavier 19 students in 10th, 11th, and 12th grades, Beloit St. Johns with 22 students, Hutchinson Central Christain 25 students, Elyria Christain 46 students, and Lawrence Bishop Seabury with 46 students would be moved to 2A with a range up to 120 students. Current 4A private schools like KC Bishop Ward with 210 students and Wichita Trinity with 245 would be moved up to 5A with a range up to 977 students. And in 5A, SM Bishop Miege with 531 students would be put in 6A with a range up to 1558. Many other of the private schools have the same differences, just not as bad. This looks really fair! If the arguement against private schools is that they have no boundries, then for the third time, would the multiplier apply to any school, private or public, that has students outside their district?

I don't think anyone is answering your question because they know you already know the answer.

Brian,

First, if out of district kids was the only issue, nobody would care.

Second, I believe they are talking about a multiplier, not necessarily moving everyone a classification. For example, multiplying your enrollment by 1.4 to determine your classification. That would keep the Elyria Christian type schools in 1A.

Will. The same people who want to "level the playing field" are the ones who are against school vouchers. The NEA (democrats)has fought vouchers for years. That would do more to hold parents and teachers accountable and raise the quality of our schools than any of this garbage we are talking about. As we catholic's know, ALL catholic's contribute to the Diocese they live in whether you have children or not and the Diocese spends this money on all kinds of charities, homeless, foodbanks, and schools. There is NO requirement to donate. By some's remarks, they feel the deductability of these deduction are somehow sinister. Yet, try to take away the deductability of the real estate taxes and their charitable deductions, they scream bloody murder. Will, I agree. It's a waste of time to try and educate someone with a closed mind. But, I appreciate you trying. Thanks, Matt

Good post mfe. That same group is for taking the life of the innocent and saving the life of the guilty.

Opp looks like we need another look at this one... and i dont think spell checker would save you this time

This has nothing to do with religion and abortion and death penalties. This has to do with athletics. I am prolife, anti crime, hardcore right wing, and yet I believe the playing field needs to be level in the area of athletics.

Like it or not, private schools have significant advantages in the area of athletics. It's not just that they have better coaching. They win a statistically significantly higher percentage of state championships and nationwide, activities associations are dealing with it.

You can say public schools are less efficient, but flood the private schools with problem/special needs kids and see what happens to their efficiency.

I believe that it mostly has to do with academics... If you want a better ride to college you go to private school it prepares you more. I dont think it is as significant of an advantage as you might say, unless you bring up some statistics ??

SHUDOG.

As for out of district students, not in my district.

I doubt there are very many student athletes or their parents who want to risk a 365 sports suspension (the KSHSAA rule) for playing out of district--or out of the home school boundary. In that same vane, doubt you will find a public school administrator or coach who knowingly will put their school and teams at risk by playing an out of district athlete.

Also, believe that where you do have out of district students, it is because differences in academic and vocational class offering. In this case I think the out of district student would be sent back to his home district for sports. And yes, a few out of district students and athletes probably drop through the crack. But certainly not to the extent you and Cokely think. Cokely mentions Kismet-Southwern Heights. Whats the big deal. Southwestern Height is a small 3A school with a 140 student enrollment. Why would a student athlete at Liberal HS, which has a very good sports history, go out of district to Southwestern Heights?

I think that you arguement is exceptionally weak and has no merit.

I do agree that there needs to be special provisions for the very small private schools---the smaller 2As and the 1As. I have no empathy for the STA, SJA, BM, maybe BW, KMC, BC, Hayden, Colgan, Salina SH, and a few others who year-after-year show up in the state tournament brackets

5647893,

Here's some statistics if you really want them.

Remember there are no 6A private schools

12.5% of 5A schools are private (4/32)

6.25% of 4A schools are private (4/64)

9.375% of 3A schools are private (6/64)

7.8% of 2A schools are private) (5/64)

2A through 5A Schools are made up of 205 (91.5%) public and 19 (8.5%) private.

Current State Champs Private Schools

Volleyball

5A, 4A, 3A

Football

4A 3A

Boys Baskeball

5A, 3A, 2A

Girls Basketball

3A

Baseball

4A 2-1A

Boys Soccer
5A and 4321A

Girls Soccer 54321A

Girls Tennis 5A and 321A

Boys Tennis 321A

3A boys basketball 6 state champions in a row have been private.

5A girls basketball 2nd 3rd and 4th places to private schools out of 4 private schools in the state.

No MFE, donations to the church are not sinister. But, if the church then applies that donation to a students tuition, and the parents then claim the church donation as an income tax donation, that is sinister. That is indirectly getting the public to pay the private tuition.

Also, about vouchers. If a black student from KC Harmon, a very much inner city schooland environment, with a voucher, with severe CP-in a wheel chair and requiring a full time para, are you and Cokely going to accept that student at your private school. I doubt it. But, I bet you will accept the normal child of the same religion as you who has a voucher. Why the voucher? Probably the parents, at the urging of the church and private school, just wanted to go to a private school. So, public funding of private schools. How will that improve public schools.

It causes competition within theses schools Contrarian... I believe Jebb Bush did a similar thing in Florida and not only did it benefit the students but it benefited the failing schools they were leaving. They had to work to get better teachers and make it more attractive to come to their school

Competion for students forces the quality to go up. Something you don't seem to understand. It has nothing to do about religion or RACE that you seem to always want to interject. Just for your information, the poor are very favorable to vouchers. Of course, the democrats and the NEA feast on playing the "class warfare" game and keeping the poor, poor!

Dam, PUBIC school administrators. That is a big mistake. My apologies and thinks for pointing it out. No, a spell checker would not have saved me!

Maybe I was confusing administrators with those public school students some poster said looked and acted like "pimps and prostitutes".

I just thought it was funny, i dont mean no harm its just a simple mistake i understand

OK, lets talk about the quality of schools.

Poor performing schools are mostly inner city schools. Yes, they have some weak teachers that are there only because of tenure. But, to me, they are not the total problem. Inner city Public schools face so many social, econmic, racial, drug (parent and student) and other problems that adversely affects the schools performance. Getting rid of a few teachers will help but will not solve the problems.

For what ever reason, our Federal and State governments have decided that many social programs are to be executed in public schools. These programs are all detractors to just educating. But, for example, are we not going to have free or reduced price breakfast or lunch, when these may be the only meals some of the kids get. There are a host of programs that are public school detractors.

Perhaps the biggest problem in many public schools, not just inner city schools, is the lack of parent envolvement. Put Johnny and Jane on the bus and forget about them. No breakfast, not dressed in acceptable attire, or for the weather, no involvement in doing, helping or checking of homework, and a whole list of other problems. When we can do something to improve a large segment of society, then perhaps we can see improve in our schools.

I do not mind nor am I jealous if carrying parents want to send their kids to private schools. But do not rob the public treasury, and do not claim an even playing field in sports. Now the same can be said of suburban schools. No way can KCKS compete with Blue Valley--in quality of teacher, class offerings or facilities. Acouple of years ago Sumner played I think it was Blue Valley West in a FB playoff game. Sumner showed up with 30++ players and three coaches. Sumner practices on a grassless, rocky field--they have no home field--home games are played at Wyndotte or Wasington. BVW suited probably 100 players, at least 10 to 12 coaches, and the field was state of the art artificial turf. Who won? Certainly not Sumner. Our kids were not disappointed--they were glad they had made it that far and got to play. Was it fair. Not even an issue. But, I do not think BVW was a repeater the following year--as many private schools are.

Why don't you enroll this wheelchair bound kid at the catholic school, and find out that you are wrong? Come down to the Lord's Diner here in Wichita and paint yourself, black, brown, orange, or pink, and see if you get turned away.

So taking church donations as a deduction on your taxes is wrong, but paying taxes that go to public schools, but that you don't attend, is right?

Please tell me what is the Lord's Diner. Do noy see it on the list of schools. Why go enroll the disabled child. Just have an administrator at STA, SJA, KMC, Bishop Carrol, Hayden, etc come on this forum and tell me they will accept the disabled child--and that he will even accept them without a voucher.

And again, go read what I said about church donations versus claiming that donation as a tax deduction if credited to the students tuition.

And yes, I do believe it is right that you pay property taxes and that some of that goes to public education. You made a personal decision to send your kids to a private school--so do not expect me to pay for it.

And I still have doubts that the private schools will accept very many of the special needs students. I are not talking "gifted and talanted, or learning disabilities. I am talking severe physical and mental, disabilities, autism, and very bad behavior disorders.

To Shudog's defense. Many districts including Contrarian's own home district of Lansing have "open enrollment". You fill out a form, get approved, and your in. If you do not move you have to sit for the mandatory 18 weeks. But several districts have out of district students that transfer in for a variety of reasons, social, academic, athletic, all of them combined. All perfectly within the KSHSAA rules.

I am a public school guy but my belief is...if a private school is 4a 5a, 3a or whatever by enrollment, leave them there and beat their ass. That is all I am saying to clear up the quotes sportfan02 was questioning. We are put in classes to give us a reasonable shot. It is perfect that Lansing with 577 kids has to compete with Emporia with 925? No wonder they beat us. Seriously, I choose to believe they beat us because they have a strong kids club, great tradition and coaching and they were simply better. Now it's on us to work harder to beat them.

Sportsfan02 don't be an irritant comparing this to having only one weight class in wrestling. A better comparison would be to make all kids that get extra help or go to Purler, Akin or any camps carry an extra weight provision like Jockeys do. So if you have been to Purler you need to weigh in 2 pounds less than a kid who has not. Gotta keep it fair.

Finally, rule are generally put in place to watch over the masses, the flyers or one achieving at the very high or low end are usually not covered. If we legislate for every possible option or scenario we create a burden to everyone like we are doing in Washington right now....Oh that is another subject.

And that is the point! In the opinion of many, most of whom have nothing to do with wrestling, the public schools do not have a reasonable shot. Certainly those statistics above would seem to indicate such. We can't look at this through the eyes of just wrestling fans. We have to consider all the sports, as is the case when certain KSHSAA rules that effect wrestling are hard to get changed. Often that reason is due to the impact it would have on all the sports as a whole.


Then don't say All that is required is for the public schools to work harder. Because if the playing field isn't level, all the work in the world will not matter.

Will,

You didn't make the uneducated quote very clear. If those that would have private schools bump up a class are uneducated then this whole discussion is about perception. If that were true you would have an argument but it's not. KSHSAA study on disparity shows there is something to the disproportionate amount of championships won by private schools. Other states add a multiplier to private schools. Characterize those thoughts the way you want to, but it holds water.

Brett, there are 5 states that have the multiplier. Illinois has it and it applies to any school with non boundary enrollment which includes public schools. If you read the conclusion to the study done by the Public-Private Study Committee it states that it recongnizes and agrees that inequities exist between member schools, however, not all inequities fall between public and private lines. The numerous factors referenced in their report help distinguish one school from another and provide differing opportunities for school communities to achieve and grow. The Commmittee challenges each school to dedicate its efforts in working to achieve the goals and principles of a healthy interscholastic progam. The report states that the implementation of a weighting/multiplier factor may be perceived to solve an isolated issue, but may lead to additional issues or concerns. Under the Findings section it is stated that there has been schools, both public and private, that have attained and maintained a high level of success in a specific sport/activity.

If there are 5 states with multipliers, how many other state distinguish between public and private schools by any means. Understand there are several states in the east that have separate public and private classifications for sports, and run separate state tournaments. Is this true, don't know. Just what I have heard.

Brett,

The number of championships won by private schools is not a good arguement. There are a vast number of variables that would have to be assessed. The "quick and dirty" solution is to penalize the private schools because they win.?! Seriously, an educated person would say that this clearly does NOT hold water. Again, the biggest sports dynasties in Kansas have nearly all been public schools. The message to our kids should be "Not everyone can be a champion. Work as hard and as SMART as you possibly can. If you still come up short that is life. Not everyone is going to be a champion. Life is NOT a level playing field so why deceive our high school kids into thinking it should be? I thought the goal was to get kids to participate, learn and grow. If we have to tell them they are going to be champions to make that happen then we are all in trouble.

I went to a public school and I would have sent my kids to a public school now but there is SO much red tape to get something done. Schoolboard, superintendent, asst. superintendent, principal, several asst. principals, athletic directors, yada yada yada. I wanted my kids to have a schedule that made them work hard in the classroom, on the mat, and at home. That is what it takes to be successful in the real world. You are not always in your office (classroom), you have to make it happen (schoolwork and job assignments) and you have to be constantly preparing (promotions, wrestle offs, grades, raises). In our school if it is a good idea and we can make it happen then it does! No BS. That is why I pay, not because being in a private school automatically makes you better equipped to be a champion.

Could you not tell private school kids the same thing if they were to play up a classification? The old life's not fair lesson is good for the public school kids but not the private school kids?

We're not saying private school students cannot compete, participate, learn and grow. Why not tell them what you want us to tell our kids?

Dang I wanted to say that!

It does not really effect me or my kid either way, but has anybody thought about the schools that will be moving down as a result of moving the private schools up? Sure you move STA, BC up to 6a maybe SJA to 5a, and TMP to 4a, but you would also have Lawrence-free state, Leavenworth and Blue Valley maybe move down to 5a. Lawrence FS is very good in BB, baseball, and some other sports, Leavenworth Track already is very tough in 6a as is their basketball, and Blue Valley is good in tennis, VB and GBB.

Maybe one is better than the other but my point is if you scuffle some teams up you are going to scuffle some pretty good teams down as well.

It just seem like wasted effort to me. Miege is too small in 5a that unless you just give a one class auto increase they will still be 5a with a 1.4 escalator or whatever has been discussed.

Basically this boils down to 4 schools...STA, SJA, Bishop Carroll, and TMP. KMC will be right on the edge of a class jump if you are using a 1.4 muliplier. They would bring that number to 5. There might be some really small schools I am not familiar with.

I personally could care less because we will figure out a way to compete and win. That is what we have always done. It just seems like a crappy lesson that my tax dollars are supporting. "If we can't beat them then lets penalize them!"

That is exactly right, Will. As I posted earlier the great programs like the Bishop Miege girls volleyball and basketball programs would have been winning over the last thirty or more years no matter what division in Kansas that they would have been in and that is due in a large part to the great coaches that those programs have had in those years Gwen Pike and Terry English. I would think that the area girls basketball and volleyball coaches would agree with my assessment. As I also said before the Aquinas soccer teams will be successful no matter what division they are in. I am pretty confident that the 6A soccer teams who have to face those Aquinas soccer teams would prefer that Aquinas stay in 5A. But these private school team long term success stories are no different than some public school teams with similiar long term success records. I believe Coach Van Rose of SM Northwest boys and girls cross country has something like 31 state titles in 40 years. Is that long enough for a public school success record for some of you who want to say that public school success stories never seem to last as long as private school success records? The SM East boys swimming and diving coach has been there a long time and has numerous state titles. Hutchinson football had been at a very low point for a long time untill their current coach came in 1998 and turned the program around. Great coaches make a difference. They still need the athletes but without a doubt great coaches are a very big factor. All coaches are not the same in ability. Just as there can be great athletes there can also be great coaches. There are not a lot of Romero Cotton level athletes just as there are not a lot of Van Rose type coaches.

Do I think coaching differences are the only reason for the differences in high school teams success? No, there are other things too like athletic talent, tradition, parental involvement, and community spirit, etc. . I do not claim there is a perfectly level playing field out there. But at what lengths are we supposed to go to level the playing field out? It has been posted on this topic now that the teams in KCK are really not on a level playing field with the Blue Valley kids. I believe the reason had something to do with family income levels and possibly parental involvement. So would that would be the next thing we need to handicap within the public schools (income and parental involvement diffences between schools)? Or maybe we need to be sports specific and make the SM Northwest cross country team start an extra quarter of a mile or so behind the rest? I mean where do you stop in trying to even the playing field out?

We have already tried to level it out in coaching differences by not allowing coaches to do any off season coaching during the school year. We also try to level out the coaching differences in building a program by not allowing the coaches to participate in a youth program in their sport. So we end up not allowing a coach who wants to work harder than the next coach to build a strong sports program. I know the rationale is that we are protecting the kids from an overzealous coach but sometimes I wonder who really are protecting because rules could be put in place and enforced to protect for an overzealous coach. I personally do not expect a coach to have to work extra by having off season workouts for his team or have to build a program by supervising a youth team in his sport but I do not think we should prevent a coach who wants to do that the extra work to build a strong program. In our sport of wrestling in my opinion one of the most important things we need to get changed is the restriction that is currently in place that does not allow our high school wrestling coaches to coach their own wrestlers freestyle and greco until the summer. We need to get that changed. In my opinion it should be accepted because the olympic styles are a different sport than our high school folkstyle.

After all the cussing and discussing and listening to all the reasons why private schools are so successful, and public schools are lesss sucessful, I have come to the conclusion that public schools can never compete with private schools in either athletics or academics. As long as public shcool administrators and teachers are uneducated, try to teach the un-disciplined and un-teachables, who look and act like pimps and prostitutes, there is no future for public education. I originally thought the best proposal, for public and private schools, would be to bump the private schools one classification. Now, in my opinion, the probable best course would be to separate private and public schools by creating one or more private school only classifications--perhaps even have private schools form their own separate activities association, their own leagues, their own post season state tournaments, and their own academic activities. They would not have to be concerned with public schools and we would not be concerned with them.

Why don't we just give every school a state championship trophy in every sport, every year? That would keep these poor kids from having to face the agony of defeat. They would also have lots of extra free time to go smoke dope and get drunk, cause they really wouldn't have to practice. And we would only have to keep a few of them eligible, at least enough to field a team anyway. That would be where I would draw the line, in order for you to get your trophy, your football team has to have at least 11 kids eligible, Bball 5 kids, etc.

I can't wait to tell my kids they WILL be state champs when they get to HS. My oldest daughter will be upset that she and her teammates had to actually work to earn their softball state title.

Don't know what we're gonna do with the good coaches we have here at Andale. Wait, I think I just solved the budget crisis. Let the kids coach themselves, and take away all of the supplemental contract money we spend on them.

No Doug747.That wouldn't be fair to require them to field a full team of eligible players. We would have to kick some of the eligible ones off the other team to make it even. Also, we need each school to get 4 state championships in each sport because it isn't fair that sophmores and juniors have to play against seniors ect. I guess it really wouldn't be fair to require them to be eligible because if you are poor or a minority, you just can't study like the rest of the kids. Of course, since some of the parents don't spend the time working with their kids, these kids should be rewarded with the biggest trophy. Then they should automaticly get a "Full Ride" scholarship and given the highest paid jobs when they get out of school. The list goes on! PS: Doug, under this scenario, you and the other parents who spend thousands of hours working with the youth at Andale , could spend that free time in the bars and clubs. Darn! I need to change parties and become a democrat!

The multiplier is purely a form of discrimination. Most always directed at religious schools. If you have never had a child in any other school other than public then you have no basis for judgment against these schools. If you think that Catholic schools are so bad and would never take on a truly disabled child then please go to the following website:http://www.fire-program.org.

OK. I looked at the Fire web page. See a lot of fund raising activities, lots of golf tournaments, folks standing around grinning for the camera. What I do not see are pictures of severely handicapped children in a parochial school. I read the news article about the three special needs boys-did not see any pictures of the boys--what is their needs-and what assistance do they require--wheel chairs, crutches, paras. Apparently, since they play softball, their needs are not physical. My wife was a special needs teacher; and there are different severities and levels of needs and assistance. Public schools serve them all. Do private schools?

And, I do not think there is any discrimination toward private or parochial schools in any post by any poster on this forum. The issue is not religion--it is about HS athletics and the totally disproportionate number of state championships won by private schools. Private schools make up only 6+ percent of Kansas high school. But they win from 25 to 100% percent of championships. Why? This is what this forum has been discussing.

Bill, have you ever consdered putting your name as a signature at the bottom of your post like I and others do? I prefer to address you as Bill which you stated was your first name in an earlier post. I really had to take some time though to go back and find it.

Bill, I dont think a private school multiplier would be direct discrimination against religious schools but indirectly it is because I think the overwhelming majority of the private schools are religious schools.

You say that the issue is the disapportionate amount of state championships of the 6+% of the private schools that win from 25 to 100% of the state championships. Bill, don't you think up to 100% is a pretty big exaggeration in your statement? But regardless is there some kind of quota on the number of statement championships that a school or group of schools in a category are supposed to win and if they go over that quota are we then suppose to handicap the schools?

Because if that is the case then we do need to also handicap public schools that win a disapportionate amount of state championships. We should do this so we are not being discriminatory to the private schools in our handicap system. We should immediately start handicapping in some way the Hutchinson football team, the SM East swimming and diving team, and the SM Northwest boys and girls cross country teams. I think we might have to throw the Goddard wrestling team in there too.

Bill, you are never going to be able to make it a perfectly even playing field in high school athletics. You have pointed out yourself in this topic how the Blue Valley public schools areas now have an advantage over the KCK public school areas. So should we handicap the Blue Valley schools over the the KCK schools even if they both fall enrollment wise in the same Kansas state classification? I would think you should think so or otherwise your handicapping is discriminatory to just private schools.

Public schools getting beat by public schools is not the issue. Yes, there are lots of unfair things in the world. Inner city/urban schools certainly do not have the many things large suburban districts take for granted: artificial turf football stadiums, immaculate soccer fields, swimming pools, tennis courts, gymnastics programs, etc. Smaller rural districts also do not have these amenities. But, using Cokelys "ironic", how do the private schools dominate even the suburban schools in athletics. As for percentages you need to look at the history of state championships in all sports. Aquinas soccer approaches 100%. You list the Volleyball success at Bishop Miege. How about the baseball championships of Bishop Ward, or the string of football success by Pittsburg Saint Marys Colgan. Or, KCC successes in socer and basketball. And then Topeka Hayden in football and basketball. This forum started out to discuss the NCK League to split 4A into two classes. Several poster said the basis of this NCKL proposal was that public schools in that region were tired of losing year after year to Hayden.

You keep alluding its better coaching in the private schools. And yes, there are some long term successful public school programs. You best example is SMNW Cross Country. But, looking at the history of state championships--I do not see SMNW championships in other sports. As for Hutchinson football, see no history other than football of championships in any other sport. Smithcenter is on a roll I think in football and I think baseball. So what? Way up and out there is another world, plus the private schools they have to play are not perinnal powers in any one sport (although several of the smaller private schools fill up the state level brackets--and often win their own championships. Emporia is and has been an outstanding wrestling school. But, I see no private schools in Emporia, Hutchinson, Smith Center, and a host of other towns/school district that siphon off the athletic talent. As I said previously, coaches without the athletes are just PE teachers.

I said in a post yesterday that I now conclude the best course of action is perhaps to go ahead and separate public and private schools--no competition in any sport. Private school leagues, private school championships, perhaps even a separate private school activites association (Cokely and MFE would then not have to get wound up about KSHSAA, public school administrators and administrations, or public school kids). If private schools want to fill out a schedule, play Rockhurst or a couple of the other private KCMO private schools, go play Springfield Catholic--they have comparable sports records as Kansas private schools. Wichita area private schools can travel into Oklahoma searching for teams to play. From one of your latest post you seem to agree with separating the schools, plus something about the coaches could then help coach your club teams, and you would not be bothered by other KSHSAA restricytions (is that Cokely's out of state travel restriction, or his out of season coaching by the HS coaches).

Bill Mason
Lansing

I know there are spelling and grammer mistakes--everyone get over it. Still waiting for RichardD--who gets upset at such errors and likes to call people stupid-- to get a spell checker installed.

Added. No there is no quota on championships. But, if it quacks like a duck, walddles like a duck, swims like a duck, then it probably is not a chicken, or a rabbit, or a cow, etc., etc

Perhaps we could handicap 6A sports dynasties by bumping STA, KMC, BC, up to 6A, or bump Miege and Hayden to 5A to oppose Hutch football, and don't forget SJA-they could play Miege in volleyball and soccer.

No way we can make it perfect. Not trying to. But you still have not explained the disparaties that lots of posters have listed as facts on this forum.

Vince,

Let's change the question. What percentage of state championships would the private schools have to win to cause you to believe they may have an advantage beyond superior coaching?

There are numerous advantages to private high schools in the area of athletics. Period. If you put one non Kansas resident on a kids club wrestling team, everybody is outraged. Put several Missouri kids on a Kansas high school state championship baseball team and all we hear is that they are better coached. Any attempt to question it makes you a democrat, catholic bashing, soft on crime, granola eating, tree hugging hippie.

To be honest, I've never really felt strongly about the issue. I've known there were advantages, but I've never really cared that much. Until this thread, I never realized how significant the disparity in championships actually was.

KC Sportsmom,

I apologize if you think I am discriminating on the basis of a schools religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not have a problem with Catholicism or private schools. If private school was an option for my children, I would seriously consider it. This is not about religion for me.

Vince does not want to be tied down to a stated percentage--he would then have to defend private school championship history and facts---something he has yet to do-at least with facts.

It must be that private schools are not winning championships--54321A public schools are losing them--it is the public schools fault.

Bill Mason
Lansing

So what you seem to be saying is that you don't have any problem with public schools have advantages over other public schools just private schools having some sort of advantage over public. Is that all you are concerned about in the question of a level playing field in high school athletics?

I do not think that is true. It may be true around here in soccer because of Aquinas and their coach Craig Ewing but I don't think private schools in this area dominate the Blue Valley or Olathe schools in most sports.

That precisely supports my point that much of the time great coaches have created all these long term success records. The very fact that SMNW and Hutchinson are not winning state championships in other sports supports the fact that it a big part of their success can be contributed to Van Rose in SM Northwest in cross country and Randy Dreilling is football. The same can also be said that great coaches like Terry English Bishop Miege basketball who has been there over thirty years with a similiar record to Van Rose's at SM Northwest and Gwen Pike in volleyball at Miege have also contributed significantly to their success. I am very confident that Bishop Miege would not have nearly the amount of girls basketball or volleyball titles without Terry English and Gwen Pike coaching there. I am also extremely confident that Hutchinson would not have won six straight football titles with Randy Dreiling coaching there.

I don't know what actual percentage would convince me of that? How many state championships does the Hutchinson football team have to win in a row after being basically winless several years before Randy Dreiling's arrival before I can get supporters are your side to admit that great coaching is a very significant factor in high school state championship records? Or how many cross country state titles does Van Rose have to win at SM Northwest before I can get you to admit that? No matter what you say Great Coaching is a factor in some of the long term state championship records of Kansas private school teams. I know it is with Terry English for the Bishop Miege girls program, for Gwen Pike with the Miege girls volleyball, for Craig Ewing with the Aquinas boys and girls soccer and for Dennis Hurla with the Bishop Ward baseball program.

Is great coaching the sole factor? I never said that is was the sole factor but I do think it is the major factor in teams with such long term success records.

I don't think private schools necessarily have more athletic kids than public schools. I do think there can be some of the advantages that many of you have brought up like kids that come from wealthier families and possibly more parental involvement. But wealthier school districts like the Blue Valley, Olathe and Shawnee Mission can also have those same advantages that come wealthier families. Is it fair probably not but you are always going to have these kind of disadvantages. If you put the multiplier in to effect it will not change that drastically the success of programs with great coaches and tradition like Miege girls basketball and volleyball, Aquinas boys and girls soccer. It will make it harder for the sports programs at many of the private schools that do no have near that type of success record to compete at their state championships. It will not stop all the sports inequities out there. You still are going to have dominant teams and schools both private and public due to certain advantages that they have.

It seems to me on the scale of things that public school should be concerned about that this issue should be very low on the priority list even for athletics. I would be a whole lot more worried about what is happening with the state budget and how that is going to effect the public financing of sports in the public school system.

I told you, he will not state a percentage!! It still is all in the coaching--in each and every sport in each and every private school. No facts, no history, just allusions.

If the subject is low on public school priorities, why the proposals from the NCK and Frontier Leagues.

Vince needs to go count the regional placings and state tournament banners flying in the KC area private school gyms. Then go count the banners in public school gyms--make it easy--just go to the near by 5A gyms. No comparison.

I did not say it was low their priorities list. It may very well be high on their priority list. I am just saying I think they should be more concerned if public funding of our public school sports programs is going to continue.

A multiplier may happen. But even if it does, I personally do not think it is going to change things that much.

Good discussion. I have had my say on it.

Some of us are labeled for life, get used to it!

Enuff said on this topic. Let's switch to something new. KSHSAA will or will not vote in April--or maybe in the fall. I have enough faith in them and the Executive Committee to believe they will make the best decision for Kansas high school activities.

Contrarian, I am glad that you enjoyed the website and am actually impressed that you looked at it. But what you didn't pick up on is that catholic schools are now creating their own funding mechanisms (non governmental funded unlike public schools) to pay for special needs children of all types to receive an "equal" education to those regular kids in the catholic schools. I know from personal involvement, for example they take: Downs Syndrome, Autism spectrum, Behavior Disorders, drug and fetal alcohol syndrome babies. I think your wife could attest to the expanse and difficulties with these. Also you do not have to be rich to attend catholic schools just a commitment to your child's education. Hence, those involved with education are most likely involved in their kids athletics as well. Tuition can range anywhere from $6,000 to $10,000 per year. Scholarships are very limited and are given based on financial need and academics only, NOT ATHLETICS!!!! If you look at the MO example of the multiplier, it doesn't effect the Rockhursts of the world, but KILLS the athletic competitive potential of all the small schools. Look at Archbishop O'Hara in KC less than 5oo students and they routinely get beat up on by much larger schools. So when an educational choice is available which school would a talented athlete choose? To play soccer for a perennial champion like Rockhurst or never make it to state at an O'Hara? It will not hurt Aquinas whom YOU most despise, but will hurt small schools like St Thomas More Prep. Be Advised!

What I would like to see, I have no time to generate the stats, is an accounting of the BIG 5 state championships. Football, Basketball, Baseball, Wrestling and Track. Then break it out by boys and girls. Is there still a private school disparity? I don't think you will find one in the boys big

Why just those five, and why just boys. Shoud also do boys soccer and all the girls sports. Don't forget softball, a big, big girls sport.

I just want to see where the true disparity is. I don't think there is any advantage in the big 5 (softball for chicks would be the same as baseball). Those 5 comprise, I am guessing, 90% of total participation.

Here again are some stats on state championships. I looked only at the KSHSAA listing of Current State Champions—softball and baseball stats are from last year 08/09—no 09/10 champs yet in these two sports. Did not include the country club sports---tennis, swimming, golf, or gymnastics. Did not include wrestling—a big sport-but primarily an individual sport—four or five wrestlers can win a team title- or a high team placing. Stats do not include 6A—no 6A private schools.

Football: two of four possible class champs (4a and 3A) 50%

Boys Basket ball: three of five champs(5A, 4A, 2A)—60%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Girls Basketball: one of five champs (3A)-20%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Baseball: two of four champs (4A and 21A) -–50%

Softball: zero of four champs-- two 3rds and one 4th

Volleyball: three of four champs (5A, 4A, 321A) –75% --plus three 2nds.

Boys Soccer: two of two champs (5A and 4321A) -100% --plus two 2nds

Girls Soccer: one of one champs (54321A) -100% --plus 2nd, 3rd, and 4th

I count 14 of a possible 29 (48 percent) state championships in these major sports won by private schools . This is an extraordinary number when only 6 percent of the schools are private.

Sounds like the public schools, my kids' included, need to do something different.

The pussification of America continues. Sorry to steal your line Will.

This is exactly the same as raising taxes on those evil hardworking overachieving "rich" people. Those same evil "rich" people that create jobs for the "poor" folks.

I will always give help to someone that NEEDS help. But I will NEVER give help to someone that EXPECTS it.

There is a Tea Party tonight at Community America Baseball Park in KCKS . Why don't you attend Doug747.

Cokely wanted stats. There they are. You want to ignore them with some smart a**,non-sensical comment no way germane to the issue. I will lend you my dictionary if you need to look up smart a**, non-sensical or germane. I doubt if you will hear those big words at a Tea Party.

That is a mere snapshot. Go back 20 years. The rules haven't changed. Just because "recently" there has been domination we should overreact and make a big change. Contrarian, what is your IQ? Just fill in the blanks _ _ . I left you plent of room!!

YOu liberals will think it is funny when these job creators you call "the evil rich" decide that you aren't worth it, and just shut their doors, ,and spend the rest of their lives in retirement, while you try to figure out how to rob them of more of the money they earned.

My IQ. Last time I was tested in the early 70s it was 146. What is yours.

Cutesy doesn't win you any points Cokely. Why not just answer the questions, address the facts and stats you asked for. And, your pussification statement ranks right along side your buddy MFE's statement about slapping the shit of somebody, or the kids look and act like pimps and prostitutes. Tasteless, tasteless, tasteless. Does not take much IQ to talk like that. Sounds like barnyard talk from Liberal.

Don't try to play word games with me. You lose everytime!1

I've known lots of people like you that have a very high opinion of themselves. And if anyone wants to verify this high opinion of yourself, all they have to do is ask you. None of us knows what is good for us, you will save us from ourselves. We just got rid of a superintendent that had exactly your attitude.

Doug. Who are these job creators you hold in such high esteem. Are you talking about small business owners.

Do you know that small business owners comprise the largest group of millionaires/multi-millionaires in America. How do they do that. They pay minimum or low wages. They provide no or minimal employee benefits. The Federal government grants them special investment rules/higher percentages so they can sock more of their income into tax sheltered retirement plan than us average wage earning joes.

Don't kid yourself, small business people are not going to shutdown in mass. They have it too good. Same with doctors and health care. Doctors are not going to lay down their stethoscopes in mass in protest, nor will they stop seeing Medicare patients. Quit listening to Glenn Beck and Rush. Try doing you own thinking for a change. Glen and Rush are getting rich, no richer, off you.

Do you need saving from yourself???

Small business owners have it too good? Your 146 IQ is getting in the way of the facts. They take the most risk, which is foreign to most that depend on the government saving them.

In the US, small business (less than 500 employees) accounts for around HALF the GDP and more than HALF the employment. Regarding small business, the top job provider is those with less than 10 employees, and those with 10 or more but less than 20 employees comes in as the second, and those with 20 or more but less than 100 employees comes in as the third. Firms with less than 20 employees account for slightly more than 18% of the employment.

Of the 5,369,068 employer firms in 1995, 78.8 percent had fewer than 10 employees, and 99.7 percent had fewer than 500 employees.

As for doctors, there will be plenty of them. Just not good ones. The exodus of doctors and health care providers happened in the UK. They filled the vacuum by importing foreign doctors and granting them and their families citizenship. So, no problem, we’ll import doctors from Pakistan and Mexico to work for $50K a year.

This is what price controls do. They don’t control the price; they just shift the cost from monetary to non-monetary.

i'm sorry but from what i have read so far contrarian is an idiot that doesnt want private schools that give a better education to be around at all
along with pryer unless its behind closed doorsl,

We will be fine. We will just have to get bigger. We have 225 students, 60 of which are international residents who play very little sports, so our 165 local, mostly Catholic kids are pretty much playing up a class anyways. If having us play 4A helps everyone sleep at night, so be it.

Here is the link to the study by the KSHSAA Board.

http://www.kshsaa.org/Survey/PrivatePublicStudy.pdf

Conclusion
The Public-Private Study Committee recognizes and
agrees that inequities exist between member schools;
however, not all inequities fall between public and private
lines. The numerous factors referenced in this report help
distinguish one school from another and provide differing
opportunities for school communities to achieve and
grow. The Committee challenges each school to dedicate
its efforts in working to achieve the goals and principles
of a healthy interscholastic program.

The “Survey” that was quoted in the Wichita Eagle – has not been produced yet.
It was a stacked deck of administrators who want their proposal rammed through.
If law/legislation is changed in the Kansas - I want to see financial facts of expansion (such as impacts to individual schools), cost benefit study, methodology of the survey, what questions were asked, who conducted the survey and how the conclusions were drawn. Maybe an unbiased volunteer will do the study/survey at no cost and assisted by an attorney with legal advice – pro-bono.

A)
In 2006, the KSHSAA created a committee that studied the private-public issue. The main finding was that private schools "earn a disproportionate percentage of postseason final eight, final four and championship game opportunities when compared to public schools."

TO THIS I SAY DEVELOP YOUR YOUTH PROGRAMS – GET MORE PARENT VOLUNTEERS TO WORK WITH THE KIDS IN GRADE SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, and HIGH SCHOOL - that is academically, athletically, and socially.

B)
"A lot of people thought we stopped short —'You need to go ahead and do something about it,' " KSHSAA executive director Gary Musselman said.

This is for the “a lot of people” who thought the 2006-2007 study stopped short.

TO THIS I SAY DEVELOP YOUR YOUTH PROGRAMS – GET MORE PARENT VOLUNTEERS TO WORK WITH THE KIDS IN GRADE SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, and HIGH SCHOOL - that is academically, athletically, and socially

C)
'You need to go ahead and do something about it,' "

Do not make it easier for kids by adding classifications – challenge them to work harder, study harder, get the kids involved in community service projects, etc

TO THIS I SAY DEVELOP YOUR YOUTH PROGRAMS – GET MORE PARENT VOLUNTEERS TO WORK WITH THE KIDS IN GRADE SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, and HIGH SCHOOL - that is academically, athletically, and socially

Conclusion
The Public-Private Study Committee recognizes and
agrees that inequities exist between member schools;
however, not all inequities fall between public and private
lines. The numerous factors referenced in this report help
distinguish one school from another and provide differing
opportunities for school communities to achieve and
grow. The Committee challenges each school to dedicate
its efforts in working to achieve the goals and principles
of a healthy interscholastic program.

KSHSAA holds up in audit

Web Link to article:
http://cjonline.com/sports/2009-07-11/kshsaa_holds_up_in_audit
Audit findings often don’t support concerns prompting study
BY RICK DEAN
Created July 11, 2009 at 7:06pm
Updated July 12, 2009 at 12:47am
Let’s put this into a perspective most taxpayers might understand.
Imagine you are facing an IRS audit. You are an honest person, yet you haven’t done everything perfectly. You await the government auditor with the anticipation common to root canals.
Anxious months later, you get his report. He disallows a single deduction; you owe a tax bill of $50. You aren’t overjoyed. Yet somehow you feel like celebrating.
That is a sense of what the Kansas State High School Activities Association, the governing body of the state’s athletic and scholastic activities programs, felt after its first appearance before the Legislative Division of Post Audit — the performance watchdog of Kansas government.
Fourteen months after a legislative committee authorized an audit in April 2008, the KSHSAA learned in the summary of the auditors’ June 25 report that “although the majority of (Association) members appear to be satisfied with most aspects of rules and regulations, a significant number are unhappy with some aspects.”
The resulting sound of silence was broken only by a quiet sigh of relief from the KSHSAA headquarters in west Topeka. Was that it? Is that the worst you found?
Gary Musselman, a KSHSAA executive for 22 years and its executive director for the past 13, was hardly floored to learn that well-intentioned people are uphappy with some aspects of Association policy.
When, after all, was anyone ever completely happy with every policy implemented by a statewide body representing 779 junior and senior high schools from Leavenworth to Liberal, St. Francis to St. Paul, and which governs activities as diverse as football and forensics, baseball and band?
“When your responsibility is to govern, there will always be concerns about, ‘Are you being fair? How do you make rules?’ ” Musselman said. “And in a state as diverse as Kansas, it’s hard to get everyone feeling the same about anything.”
Moreover, the data state auditors interpreted as “significant” dissatisfaction with Association policy read like poetry to an administrator more accustomed to having angry coaches and parents question his motivation, his judgment. Occasionally, even his parentage.
State auditors, for example, found it significant that one out of five coaches surveyed said the Association was “unresponsive” to the concerns of Kansas high school athletes.
Musselman found it more significant that 67 percent of coaches — long the most outspoken of KSHSAA critics — called the Association “responsive” to those concerns.
“I find the report interesting in that when it says 60 percent are in support and 40 percent have concerns, the 40 percent are what we talk about,” he said.
“I guess I should have spoken to that because I’ve had school superintendents say they read the audit and that (the Association) did a super job, but they were concerned about the somewhat negative stance.”
The 40 percent figure that generated headlines was the percentage of surveyed coaches who, according to the auditors, believed Kansas high school athletes “didn’t have enough opportunities to develop their athletic skills.” It is an age-old lament from coaches who see Association rules limiting games and practice opportunities as hindering the development of their players.
But their concern was blunted some by the auditors survey that ranked Kansas No. 2 among the seven Big 12 states in per capita production of Big 12 athletes in football and men’s and women’s basketball, the three showcase sports surveyed.
Texas, needless to say, produces more Big 12 football and basketball players than the six other states combined. But when population is factored in, Kansas produces five athletes per 100,000 residents, trailing only Nebraska.
“It’s a case where reality is not always in sync with perception,” Musselman said.
“There’s a perception elsewhere that we’re a bunch of small, backwater schools. Well, Jordy Nelson (a Kansas State All-American from tiny Riley County now in the NFL) did all right. So did Jackie Stiles (who made it to the WNBA from Claflin). You can go up and down a list (of small-school Kansas success stories).”
Numbers don’t lie
The effect of Association rules on the development of Kansas athletes was one of three major concerns legislators — responding to personal or constituent complaints — told the auditors to consider.
Others involved what legislators called a “cumbersome” governing structure that made the Association unresponsive to the wants of member schools; and revenue-sharing policies that, in the words of the pre-audit scope statement, “cause schools to lose money when they host (Association-sanctioned) postseason events.”
Again, figures compiled by the auditors in a survey of some 3,100 coaches, administrators, superintendents and school board presidents failed to support those contentions.
The auditors’ survey found only one in four respondents from the Association’s governing boards thought the board was too large. Only one in three thought it didn’t adequately represent schools of all sizes. Some survey respondents also said small schools (classes 1 through 3A) were under-represented.
In breaking down the Association’s 78-member Board of Directors, auditors found one Board member for every eight small schools, compared to one for every four large schools (classes 4 through 6A). Yet in analyzing student representation, small schools had one board member for every 759 students compared to one for every 2,619 students in classes 4 through 6A.
Kansas’ big-vs.-small rift, as prominent in the Statehouse as it is in the KSHSAA, shifted in 1992 when the Association sought legislative permission to expand its then 60-member Board of Directors, which included one representative from each league regardless of school size.
Today, leagues with combined enrollments of more than 4,000 students have a second representative — who must be a woman or from a minority population — on the 78-member board. Leagues with combined enrollments of 8,000 can get a third representative.
The change has tipped the big-small balance, Musselman said, but it came about through a democratic process.
“Prior to 1992, the over-simplified, seat-of-the-pants criticism was that the small schools ran the organization,” he said. “Now those small schools might say a shift in power has finally happened, that we can’t control our destiny because we’ll be outvoted by this larger block.
“But in 21 years here I haven’t seen that many issues break down to large school vs. small school. The issue about summer coaching may have come as close to that as anything.”
Fiscal restraint
The legislative concern about schools losing money when hosting KSHSAA-sponsored postseason events also didn’t stand up to auditing scrutiny.
Auditors did note the KSHSAA tends to keep a higher percentage of postseason gate receipts — 70 percent, a revenue stream that provides almost 90 percent of the Asssociation’s nearly $4 million operating budget — than do the other six Big 12 states surveyed. Two of three administrators surveyed thought they should retain a higher percentage for postseason events they host.
But auditors also noted the Association — which pays for officials, trophies and liability insurance at all postseason events — makes up the difference when a host school’s expenses are greater than its 30 percent take.
The auditors also reported the Association spends a larger share of operating revenue on its staff than does any other comparison state. Moreover, the KSHSAA maintains a $5.5 million cash reserve, more than any other state surveyed.
Nearly 40 percent of the Association’s budget goes to staff compensation.
Musselman said staff salaries, determined by the Association’s Executive Board, reflect a low turnover rate and resulting high service time among his top administrators.
“Stability is an indication of people finding meaning in their work, and you tend to reward that,” he said. “They know what they’re doing, and you want to retain those folks.”
Solid fiscal management, Musselman added, helped the KSHSAA build its large cash reserves. The Association exercised the option to pay off the 15-year bonds on its new $3.2 million headquarters in only five years, thus saving some $900,000 in budgeted interest payments.
The Association now plans to return some of that cushion to its member schools in tight budgetary times.
In the 2009-10 school year, membership dues — $400 annually for high schools and $125 for junior highs — will be cut in half. The KSHSAA also will pay 16 percent of the annual catastrophic insurance premium paid for every Kansas student who participates in a sport.
The Association in the past two years also made $10,000 contributions to help restore the activity programs at tornado-ravished Greensburg and Chapman.
“In these financial times, we’ll look at what can we do to help our member schools,” Musselman said. “If we can find creative ways to help schools cover costs, we’re going to look into it.”
The legislative auditors offered no recommendations for KSHSAA improvements, other than to use the data it compiled as a guideline for future considerations of rule or policy revisions.
It was the kind of inconclusive conclusion Musselman had been hoping to hear.
“Nothing in (the report) makes me ashamed,” he said. “We work hard to do right by our schools, because if we don’t, they’ll let us know. After all, we work for them.”

Interesting and informative.

Thanks Smokey

Contrarian, if you were equal partners in a business, and your partner started slacking, to the point where he or she was not contributing to the partnership, what would you do?

Hey Chief. Think you missed my point. Small businesses do good because the pay slave wages and provide no, or minimal, employee benefits. Do they take the risks? Sure. Do they reap the benefits? Yes. In this day not even sure how much risk they are taking. Special small business loans at low rates, special business tax incentives, special personal investment programs for tax sheltered retirement plans. And they still comprise the largest group of millionaires. Some risk, some rewards. Is that good old capitalism in action or not. And again, don't forget the low wages and low employee benefits they lobby for through their mouth piece- the Chamber of Commerce--probably the biggest lobby in DC.

As for doctors, lets wait a few years and then count how many left the field. Why bring up UK and Canada. Have you ever been there? How about France, Germany, Italy, Spain. Bet you have not. Ever been any place out side of our borders--the U.S.--not just Kansas. Perhaps you too should quit listening to Glen and Rush, and Sarah.

Did you ever stop to think that these "slave wages" are what a good businessman has calculated those workers are worth? If they are worth more money, then they should do as you said in an earlier post: This is America, leave it you don't like it, and go to the guy that pays more wages for the same amount of work-if he can find that guy.

Every day I wish I made more money, but as a part of capitalism, we make EXACTLY what we are worth. If these slave laborers walk into their boss and sell him on being worth more money, that boss has a decision to make: Agree with him, give him the raise, and keep him, or tell him thanks for the offer, but see ya later, he'll hire someone else.

I believe slave labor ended a century ago, noone is holding a gun to these people's heads making them drive to work every morning.

We won't even get into the FACT that the number one problem facing our economy today is UNIONS. Every one wants someone to fight their fights for them, so they hide behind the unions. I prefer to market myself.

Most SB owners don’t live in a mansion. They don't take many vacations. They drive economy cars and don’t dress in Armani suits.

They comply with the same local, state and Federal regulations that the big guys do, but pay a larger percentage of their budget to lawyers, accountants and consultants to help wade through the sea of regulation.

Their employee compensation packages are very competitive. Many of their employees have been with them for over ten years. They even make loans to their employees so that they can purchase cars, homes, and help their kids go to college.

More importantly, they have taken bigger risks, worked longer hours and sacrificed more than the vast majority of those with an entitlement mentality.

I have been to many of those countries that you mentioned. I didn't step on any nails so I've not sampled their healthcare system but the facts are widely known.

Taking a closer look at the universal healthcare programs in other countries and you’ll find not everything is so great. In Canada, wait times to see specialists have sent many people with the funds to private care. I’m pulling statistics here, but it takes 22 months for residents of Saskatchewan to get an MRI. 57% of Canadians report having to wait a month just to see a specialist. As a result of long wait times and certain services not covered in the national plan many citizens in universal health care provided countries must still obtain private insurance. That defeats the whole purpose of a universal system because many people would opt out of getting private insurance creating the same problem the US currently faces.

Perhaps the most important disadvantage of universal health care is the fact that the government would be in charge. Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security are run by the government. Both of these programs are on track to bankrupt themselves, partially due to surplus mismanagement and partially due to an aging population. Bloated bureaucracies are sort of an American icon. We set up massive social welfare programs and they are abused by citizens and politicians. If a US universal healthcare plan were to generate a surplus, our government would then borrow from it and ruin the whole system for everyone. The simple fact is our government can’t be trusted to handle social programs, whether it be from bureaucratic or demographic mismanagement.

You Contrarian should START listening to Glen and Rush. Get away from your sound bites and know that competition fosters innovation! There is a reason that pharmaceuticals and biotechnology are two of the fastest growing industries in the US. Where serious money is to be made, entrepreneurs wake up earlier and work later. Your mentality of taking from the wage payer to give to the wage earner is fostering a society that has lost it's self reliance. Wait till that whole mass of people get on medicaid and join others that are seeing three doctors a week.

The Government should provide for our common defense and deliver the mail!

No, the problem is not unions. The problem is our economic base went from manfacturing to service. Service is why we have so many small businesses. Why were our father's generation so well off. Good paying jobs in an expanding manfactur base after WWII. Who killed that economy. Big business that went overseas, and yes, unions who made unrealistic demands must share the blame. Read some business and labor history of this country Starting around 1830 and lasting to the late 1800s/early 1900s, businesses were extremely harsh and exploited labor. Unions came into being as a rebutal to confront the harshness of business. By the late 1960s, early 70s, labor had become too strong. Labor and business law started changing and unions fell out of favor. Cokely would call this a cycle. In the 1980s business started closing U.S manfacturing capacity and moving overseas. So now, with no manfacturing base, we import everything, small business markets the imports, and labor works for minimal wages and low employee benefits. Union membership is now what--30 percent of what it used to be. Union wages did not drive this latest economic debacle. Auto manfacturers want to tell you that--but it is not true.

Now Doug, lets hear your economic theory and tell us how unions are crippling you and the country.

And Chief, I don't do sound bites and search the web. Never have thee radio or tv on during the day. TV sometimes at night to watch CSI Las Vegas, never watch Fox news, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, or David Letterman. If in the pickup, listen to all those communists on KC and Lawrence National Public Radio. There's 90 year old Walt Bodine and his guests doing either restaurant or movie reviews, there are non-political broadcasts that discuss science, there is classical music, there is a broadcast on music history and performers-rock and roll, jazz, and country-and there is local and national news every hour. Do read a lot of news articles and columnists on the internet.

Chief. Understand you are a teacher. An older cousin graduated from a teachers college in the llate 1940s and started a 40 year teaching career. I remember his ranting and raving on how Federal Aid to Education would ruin education, schools, and the country. Haven't heard a public school teacher say that in 40 years. Don't hear back to basics, 3 Rs, local control, etc. anymore. Why?? First: teacher's pocketbooks have done very well under Fed aid. Teachers don't want to go back to a starting wage of $9,000. Second: parents know their kids are getting a much better education than they did. More course offerings, better teachers, better all around.

Defense and mail. Is that what the Constitution says. The Constitution was out of date before it was signed on 17 September 17, 1787. On 25 Septmber 1789 Congress approved 12 Amendments to the States to be ratified. Two were rejected and ten were ratified--the Bill Of Rights. Since 1789 there have been an additional 17 amendments proposed, ratified by the states and added to the Constitution. Several other proposed amendments were not ratified--I think the latest being the ERA Amendment in the 1970s. So, defense and mail only. Don't think it will ever happen!! If tried, revolt and revolution. People want and expect more than that, and are will ing to pay taxes to get it.

Note: I have my pocket copy of the Constitution sitting on the light table next to my easy chair. No need to quote it for me.

The number one problem in our economy is Unions? You have got to be kidding me! I don’t recall too many fingers being pointed at unions for the collapse of Wall Street and the billions of Bail Out dollars paid to greedy mismanaged companies and executives. I realize the perception of unions protecting lazy workers exists and I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but study after study has concluded union work forces are associated with HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY, LOWER EMPLOYEE TURNOVER, IMPROVED WORKPLACE COMMUNICATION, BETTER-TRAINED, and a SAFER WORKFORCE. Those are facts.

Everyone is up in arms about the government taking over healthcare. The fact is, if more workers were bargaining collectively this would not be an issue ! Union workers are more likely to be covered by health care and receive pension benefits.

One of the other big complaints I hear about Unions is the corruption factor! Yes corruption does exist in Labor Unions , but at a lower percentage then it exists at the corporate level or the government level! Unfortunately there are crooks in every aspect of life and everything should be done to eliminate it, and put those people in jail!

The American Medical Association the American Petroleum Institute, and I can go on and on with trade groups and organizations that bring groups of like businesses and professionals together to lobby, promote, and work toward bettering their members! So please explain what is fundamentally wrong with a group of workers doing the same! This is America and thank God we do have this freedom!

I will make this statement on unions: I believe that two guys at the aircraft plant, or two teachers teaching 4th grade, or two guys putting fenders on cars, should be paid based on their productivity, not based on how long they have been on the job. If we were forced to "market" ourselves by working hard, rather than doing enough to get by, and hiding behind tenure and seniority, the hard workers would get paid a better wage than the lazy guy, the way it should be. I know a guy that has a machine shop. He has one rule when hiring: He will NOT hire anyone that has worked in a union shop. They are ruined already. He would rather train someone from scratch than put up with the crap he got when hiring a "veteran" coming out of a union shop. And he has a very low turnover of workers, very high productivity, which is a big part of the reason why he gets busy when there are layoffs at the aircraft plants. He often says "I shouldn't talk bad about unions, the are actually my best friend. The unions price themselves out of business"

I see teachers get extremely lazy once they are tenured.

I am calling them like I see them.

Unions also have our governbment in their hip pocket.

Are all union people bad, of course not, but those that are good hard working people do not need the union.

How did we get here. This started out discussing state championships. Somehow we are now into labor unions, labor history and law, small business, taxes, religion, big business, robber banks, stimulus packages, ............................. We need to get back and stick to the original issue--state championships.

Too much beating of the gums--me included.

How will these activities be treated under the 2 proposals.

Same schools same students?


NON-ATHLETIC ACTIVITIES
ACTIVITIES
Debate
Kansas Association for Youth
Music
Piano
Scholars' Bowl
Speech & Drama
Spirit Activities
Student Council
OTHER



SCHOLARS' BOWL
STATE CHAMPIONS HISTORY

YEAR CLASS CHAMPION LOCATION
2010
6A Topeka-Washburn Rural Wichita-Northwest HS
5A Wichita-Carroll Newton HS
4A Topeka-Hayden Topeka-Haden HS
3A Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marion Cimarron HS
2A Salina – Sacred Heart Goessel HS
1A Ness City Rosalia-Flint Hills HS
2009
6A Topeka-Washburn Rural Goddard HS
5A Shawnee-Mill Valley Topeka-West HS
4A Wichita-The Independent School Russell HS
3A Wichita-Collegiate Belle Plaine HS
2A Inman Moundridge HS
1A Tribune-Greeley County Quinter HS
2008
6A Topeka-Washburn Rural Maize HS
5A Topeka-West Wichita-Carroll HS
4A Buhler Wellington HS
3A Salina-Sacred Heart St George-Rock Creek HS
2A Clyde-Clifton-Clyde Brookville-Ell-Saline HS
1A Ashland LeRoy-Southern Coffey County HS
2007
6A Wichita-East Wichita-North HS
5A Wichita-Bishop Carroll Topeka-West HS
4A Pittsburg Hiawatha HS
3A Wichita-Independent Hutchinson-Trinity HS
2A Leavenworth-Immaculata Hill City HS
1A Rolla Spearville HS
2006
6A Lawrence Wichita-North HS
5A Wichita-Bishop Carroll Wichita-Bishop Carroll HS
4A Topeka-Hayden DeSoto HS
3A Wichita-Independent Rossville HS
2A Hutchinson-Trinity Hutchinson-Trinity HS
1A Tribune-Greeley Co. Bucklin HS
2005 6A Topeka-Washburn Rrral Wichita-East HS
5A Pittsburg Wichita-Kapaun-Mt Carmel HS
4A Topeka-Hayden Wellington HS
3A Shawnee-Maranatha Academy Rossville HS
2A Leavenworth-Immaculta Bennington HS
1A Bucklin Lost Springs-Center HS
2004 6A Wichita-East Lawrence HS
5A Winfield Wichita-Carroll HS
4A Basehor-Linwood Kingman HS
3A Shawnee-Maranatha Academy St. George-Rock Creek HS
2A Leavenworth-Immaculta Spearville HS
1A Ashland Ransom HS
2003 6A Overland Park-St. Thomas Aquinas Lawrence HS
5A Kansas City-Sumner Academy Wichita-Carroll HS
4A Topeka-Hayden Wellington HS
3A Hays-TMP-Marian Eureka HS
2A Oberlin-Decatur Community Bennington HS
1A Rolla White City HS
2002 6A Lawrence Wichita-East HS
5A Wichita-Kapaun-Mount Carmel Wichita-Carroll HS
4A Lindsborg-Smoky Valley Andover HS
3A Cherokee-Southeast St. George-Rock Creek HS
2A Lyndon Bennington HS
1A Bushton-Quivira Heights White City HS
2001 6A Olathe-South Wichita-West HS
5A Andover Wichita-Carroll HS
4A Mulvane Hays-TMP-Marian HS
3A Hoisington St. George-Rock Creek HS
2A Ness City Spearville HS
1A Rolla Ransom HS
2000 6A Lawrence Wichita-West HS
5A Andover Winfield HS
4A Topeka-Hayden Topeka-Hayden HS
3A Wichita-Collegiate St. George-Rock Creek HS
2A Leoti-Wichita County Moundridge HS
1A Ness City Ransom HS


DEBATE
STATE CHAMPIONS HISTORY
4-Speaker Champions
YEAR CLASS CHAMPION LOCATION
2010
6A Stilwell-Blue Valley Goddard High School &
Goddard Middle School
5A Shawnee Mission - Bishop Miege
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Moundridge
2009 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley Topeka-Washburn Rural HS &
5A Hutchinson Topeka-Washburn Rural MS
4A Fort Scott
3-2-1A Moundridge
2008 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley Garden City HS
5A Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights
4A Buhler
3-2-1A Wichita-The Independent School
2007 6A Lawrence-Free State Stilwell-Blue Valley HS
5A Hutchinson
4A Buhler
3-2-1A Moundridge
2006 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley Derby HS
5A Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege
4A Buhler
3-2-1A Moundridge
2005 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley North Topeka-Washburn Rural HS &
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley Topeka-Washburn Rural MS
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Wichita-The Independent School
2004 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley North Salina-South HS &
5A Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege Salina-Central HS
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Moundridge
2003 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley North Stilwell-Blue Valley HS &
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley Overland Park-Blue Valley West HS
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Moundridge
2002 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley North Goddard HS & Amelia Earhart ES
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Moundridge
2001 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights HS
5A McPherson
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Moundridge
2000 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley Northwest Derby HS
5A Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege
4A Haven
3-2-1A Moundridge
1999 6A Hutchinson Garden City HS
5A Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege
4A Tonganoxie
3-2-1A Lyons
1998 6A Hutchinson Lawrence HS
5A Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege
4A Haven
3-2-1A Moundridge
1997 6A Lawrence Salina Central HS
5A McPherson
4A Lansing
3-2-1A Lyons
1996 6A Wichita-Southeast Wichita State University
5A Coffeyville-Field Kindley
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Silver Lake
1995 6A Overland Park-Blue Valley Northwest Topeka-Washburn University
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley
4A Topeka-Hayden
3-2-1A Osage City
2-Speaker Champions
YEAR CLASS CHAMPION LOCATION
2010
6A Topeka Goddard High School &
Goddard Middle School
5A Hutchinson
4A Buhler
3-2-1A Sterling
2009 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley; Nichols/Dean Topeka-Washburn Rural HS &
5A Hays; Haley/Raven Topeka-Washburn Rural MS
4A Tonganoxie; Powell/Lawson
3-2-1A Sterling; Leake/Ball
2008 6A Topeka-Washburn Rural; Schroeder/Schroeder Garden City HS, Abe Hubert MS &
5A OP-St. Thomas Aquinas; Clark/Wondrack Kenneth Henderson MS
4A Tonganoxie; Powell/Lawson
3-2-1A Ellinwood; Billinger/Thill
2007 6A Olathe Northwest; Parkinson/Egan Stilwell-Blue Valley HS &
5A Salina South; Higgins/Harzman Overland Park-Blue Valley West HS
4A Louisburg; Baumgardner/Baumgardner
3-2-1A Silver Lake; Brokaw/Hanson
2006 6A Shawnee Mission-East; Rubaie/Stenger Derby HS
5A OP-St Thomas Aquinas; Mendenhal/Timmons
4A Louisburg; Baumgardner/Baumgardner
3-2-1A Hoisington; Koval/Stoskopf
2005 6A Topeka; Bellows-Blakely/Buck Topeka-Washburn Rural HS &
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley; Trum/Allen Topeka-Washburn Rural MS
4A Andover; White/Papineau
3-2-1A Ellinwood; Libby/Stevens
2004 6A Manhattan; Johnson/Lee Salina-South HS & Salina-Central HS
5A Topeka-Seaman; Eisenbarth/Rezac
4A Fort Scott; Johnson/Willey
3-2-1A Silver Lake; Miller/Jennings
2003 6A Topeka-Washburn Rural; Madden/Parulkar Stilwell-Blue Valley HS &
5A Buhler; Clark/Lu Overland Park-Blue Valley West HS
4A Tonganoxie; Becker/Reetz
3-2-1A Halstead; Giles/Keller
2002 6A Shawnee Mission-East; Nye/Stinson Goddard HS & Amelia Earhart ES
5A Salina-Central; Blick/Nuss
4A Coffeyville-Field Kindley; Reddy/Reddy
3-2-1A Whitewater-Remington; Bariel/Kasper
2001 6A Shawnee Mission-East; Suni/Ardinger Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights HS
5A Salina-Central; Blick/Nuss
4A Tonganoxie; Stephenson/Manson
3-2-1A Sterling; Johnson/Bender
2000 6A Stilwell-Blue Valley; Whetter/Banks Derby HS & Derby MS
5A Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights; Elliott/McDowell
4A Tonganoxie; Smith/Manson
3-2-1A Sterling; Bush/Willis
1999 6A Topeka; Obley/Sebellius Garden City HS, Abe Hubert MS &
5A Andover; Carden/Cole Kenneth Henderson MS
4A Coffeyville-Field Kindley; Bush/Bell
3-2-1A Little River; Cordell/Williamson
1998 6A Topeka-Washburn Rural; Radhakrishna/Ahuja Lawrence HS
5A Andover; Roddy/Weltz
4A Tonganoxie; Folsom/Dean
3-2-1A Oakley; Teeter/Stark
1997 6A Shawnee Mission-East; Dayani/Sokoloff Salina Central HS
5A Fort Scott; Hudson/Lyons
4A Topeka-Hayden; Pavlacka/Pauzauskie
3-2-1A Silver Lake; Bell/Doebele
1996 6A Hutchinson; Nunns/Walker Wichita East HS
5A McPherson; Davis/Ferree
4A Spring Hill; Corder/Thornburg
3-2-1A Silver Lake; Bell/Hanson
1995 6A Lawrence; Gottlieb/Francisco Topeka HS & Topeka-Washburn
5A El Dorado; Halabi/Bolton Rural HS
4A Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian; Meis/Dible
3-2-1A Sterling; Kruse/Heter
Debate Champions
YEAR CLASS CHAMPION LOCATION
1994 6A Hutchinson Salina Central HS
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley
4A Haven
3-2-1A Hoisington
1993 6A Hutchinson Manhattan-Kansas State University
5A Goddard
4A Parsons
3-2-1A Minneapolis
1992 6A Shawnee Mission-East Hays-Fort Hays State University
5A Stilwell-Blue Valley
4A Topeka-Hayden
3-2-1A Caney-Caney Valley
1991 6A Topeka-Washburn Rural Emporia State University
5A Winfield
4A Parsons
3-2-1A Silver Lake
1990 6A Shawnee Mission-East Emporia State University
5A Salina Central
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Hesston
1989 6A Wichita-Southeast Topeka-Washburn University
5A Hays
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Hoxie
1988 6A Manhattan Manhattan-Kansas State University
5A Topeka-Washburn Rural
4A Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian
3-2-1A Osage City
1987 6A Manhattan Salina Central HS
5A Coffeyville-Field Kindley
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Hoxie
1986 6A Wichita-Southeast Salina Central HS
5A Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Hoxie
1985 6A Shawnee Mission-South Topeka-Washburn University
5A Topeka-Washburn Rural
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Sublette
1984 6A Manhattan Topeka-Washburn University
5A Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights
4A Towanda-Circle
3-2-1A Hoxie
1983 6A Great Bend Salina-Kansas Wesleyan University
5A Topeka-Washburn Rural
4A Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian
3-2-1A Hutchinson-Trinity
1982 6A Hutchinson Emporia State University
5A El Dorado
4A Anthony-Harper-Chaparral
3-2-1A St. Marys
1981 6A Hutchinson Emporia State University
5A Emporia
4A Wamego
3-2-1A Osage City
1980 6A Topeka Topeka-Washburn University
5A Topeka-Washburn Rural
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Whitewater-Remington
1979 6A Topeka-West Manhattan-Kansas State University
5A Salina-South
4A Concordia
3-2-1A Whitewater-Remington
1978 5A Topeka Wichita State University
4A Great Bend
3A El Dorado
2-1A Baldwin
1977 5A Shawnee Mission-North Manhattan-Kansas State University
4A Salina-South
3A El Dorado
2-1A Moundridge
1976 5A Hutchinson Hays-Fort Hays State College
4A Great Bend
3A Fort Scott
2-1A Moundridge
1975 5A Shawnee Mission-North Topeka-Washburn University
4A Derby
3A El Dorado
2-1A Moundridge
1974 5A Lawrence Wichita State University
4A Great Bend
3A Abilene
2-1A Moundridge
1973 5A Lawrence Salina-Kansas Wesleyan University
4A Manhattan
3A Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights
2-1A Moundridge
1972 5A Lawrence Emporia-Kansas State Teacher's
4A Manhattan College
3A Fredonia
2-1A Moundridge
1971 5A Lawrence
4A Garden City
3A Fredonia
2-1A Moundridge
1970 5-4A McPherson Manhattan-Kansas State University
3A Fredonia
2-1A Moundridge
1969 5-4A Shawnee Mission-East Wichita State University
3A Nickerson
2-1A Haven
1968 AA Shawnee Mission-North
A Hoisington, Fredonia
B Langdon-Fairfield
1967 AA Wichita-Southeast
A Hugoton
B Moundridge
1966 AA Shawnee Mission-West Lawrence-University of Kansas
A Moundridge Emporia-KS State Teacher's College
B Emporia-Roosevelt
1965 AA Topeka
A Fredonia
B Moundridge
1964 AA Coffeyville
A Russell
B Pittsburg-Colgan
1963 AA Emporia
A Fredonia Manhattan-Kansas State University
B Moundridge Emporia-KS State Teacher's College
1962 AA Garden City Lawrence-University of Kansas
A Fredonia Wichita State University
B Ford
1961 AA Garden City Manhattan-Kansas State University
A Haven
B Lehigh Sterling College
1960 AA Pittsburg
A St. John
B Meade
1959 AA Garden City
A Abilene
B Pretty Prairie
1958 AA Shawnee Mission
A Fredonia Emporia-KS State Teacher's College
B Burrton Hutchinson Junior College
1957 AA Topeka
A Haven
B Moundridge
1956 AA Topeka
A Ulysses
B Moundridge
1955 AA Shawnee Mission
A Fredonia
B Haven
1954 AA Topeka
A Stafford
B Haven
1953 AA Topeka
A Stafford
B Haven
1952 AA Topeka
A Abilene
B Haven
1951 AA Hutchinson
A Stafford
B Madison
1950 AA Hutchinson
A Stafford
B Winchester
1949 AA Newton
A Fredonia
B Bucklin
1948 AA Russell
A Stafford
B Winchester
1947 AA Russell
A Abilene
B Halstead
1946 A Hutchinson Lawrence-University of Kansas
B Stafford
C Halstead
1945 A Newton
B Russell
C Halstead
1944 A Hutchinson
B Ellsworth
C Halstead
1943 A Newton
B Stafford
C Fowler
1942 A Topeka
B Abilene
C Moundridge
1941 A Hutchinson
B Abilene
C Eskridge
1940 A Russell
B Fredonia
C Cullison
1939 A Russell
B Abilene
C Cullison
1938 A Newton
B Dodge City
C Bucklin
1937 A Newton
B Mulvane
1936 A Topeka
B Mulvane
1935 A Topeka
B Canton
1934 A Topeka
B Canton, Mulvane
1933 A Newton
B Canton
1932 A Topeka
B Brookville
1931 A Newton
B Hepler
1930 A Hoisington
B Clearwater, Vinland
1929 A McPherson
B Pretty Prairie
1928 A Eureka
B Blue Rapids
1927 A Chanute
B Pretty Prairie
1926 A Atchison
B Mount Hope
1925 A Winfield
B Sedan
1924 A Peabody
B Pretty Prairie
1923 A Atchison
B Ness City
1922 Dodge City
1921 Sterling
1920 Chapman
1919 Neodesha
1918 Argonia
1917 Mount Hope
1916 Hoxie
1915 Hoxie
1914 El Dorado
1913 Burlington
1912 Ashland
1911 Ashland

Liberal had 5 State Track Championships in a row in the early 2000's - What the heck!

Made in the USA? Not anymore: Levi's and Etch A Sketch are just two of the many 'American' products that are now made overseas. How will the increasing outsourcing of jobs affect workers and the economy in the U.S.?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BUE/is_13_136/ai_n17206945/

Great Article: Quote,

Clara Flores, 54, a hem sewer in San Antonio who has been at the company for 24 years and was president of the plant's union, says that Levi's is providing retraining and other benefits. But she says it will be hard to find work with the benefits she had at Levi's: $18 an hour in wages, four weeks of annual paid vacation, and family medical and dental benefits for $24 a week. "Where are we ever going to find something like this?" she asks.

That means a worker could make a maximum of $37,440 per year minus the $1,248 for insurance. I guess we can blame the Union for driving Levi out of the country by demanding such an outrageously high standard of living for their long term employees! How about 24cents an hour for China workers! Yes Doug your right I see no need for Labor Unions, we can trust Businesses to be fair!

Mr. Earle,

Let me tell you how unions work. In one of the facilities I am responsible for we needed data cable installed to allow on the manufacturing floor quality control. The electrician employed at this facility did NOT have the tools or certification to install this cable. We hired an outside contractor to install the cable. A few weeks after the job was complete a lift truck operator filed a grievance against our company because he was "certified" to install data cable. We didn't ask him to do the job because he was working as a lift truck operator and we had NO idea that he was a certified data cable installer. He wanted $10,000 because he would have gotten OT when installing it. Two days of hearings, two attorneys, a Union representative, the plant union steward, and the employee as well as myself, HR and the plant manager. How much do you think that cost our company? That is one example! Many of these types of activities happen every year. The overhead that we have to pay for non value added expenses like workman's comp, unemployment, etc drives the overhead so high. The wages are one thing but FICA, insurances, and benefits are quite another. Lets not forget that the Union employees are paying dues out of their pay. We have to pay people for crazy things like, congested parking lot differential, opening day of deer season, and the process to fire an ineffective employee will make your head spin.

Shawnee Mission Northwest - Boys Cross Country
16 titles in a row what the heck - 1990's - 2000's.
Eventhough they have more miles on their feet up and down Quivira Road, Pflumm Road, etc., then I have on my work truck.
They carry spare shoes on their back when the ones on their feet blow a tire. Good for them!

I wish I got paid for opening day of deer season........

I don't know what I have to do to paint this picture, but what was this lady doing to earn $18 per hour? Was it a position that required great skill? Was she putting the size sticker on the leg of the jeans?

Something else that I find union people clueless on is the cost of health insurance. She has to contribute $24 per week to health insurance!!?? OH MY GOD!!!!!!! What a tragedy!!! I'll guarantee you it is a $15-25 copay, somthing close to 100% coverage, probably 90-10 at worst. If she were to purchase that policy, it would cost her $500 per month minimum, probably more, but I won't give a worst case. Add that additional $400 minimum per month onto her pay, because health insurance should not be required of a company to provide.

Here is a link to today's article regarding Pittsburg- St. Mary's Colgan and what they think about the proposals.

http://www.morningsun.net/featured/x57950696/Class-Warfarre


9 baseball state championships in a row PLUS a bunch of football and other state championships!!!!!!!

Mr. Earle: What does "fair" mean? Nothing in the constitution says anything about a right to a job or pay. Whenever I thought I was worth more than I was being paid, I asked for a raise first. If that wasn't given, I shopped myself and got more. Then I realized that the only way to be sure I was getting paid what I was worth, I went into strictly commission sales. That was scary (maybe I wasn't worth what I thought) but the best thing I ever did. Not once in my life did I ask someone else to do my negotiating for anything. I raise my children to always think that if it's meant to be, it's up to me! Also, if you help enough other people get what they want, you will always have what you want. I would highly recommend the most purchased motivational "tape" (yes it's over 40 years old) titled "bisquits, fleas and pumphandles, by Zig Ziglar and you might just quit feeling sorry for yourself and might start appreciating the employers who provide the jobs and take the risks a little more. Thanks and have a good day and a fantastic forever! Matt

Speaking about money and the classification expansion.

Would the KSHSAA organization benefit from an expansion of the classification system? If there are more state tournaments will there be more revenue? Do you think only the “members” are for expansion and none of the staff?

KSHSAA tends to keep a higher percentage of postseason gate receipts — 70 percent, a revenue stream that provides almost 90 percent of the Association’s nearly $4 million operating budget

Gate receipts provide $3,600,000 (90% of budget) in revenue $400,000 from other sources.
More games more gate receipts.

40 percent (or $1.6 million is spent on a staff compensation) of the 4 million budget.

Rough estimates on staff compensation:

13 support staff treated equally at $50,000 = $650,000 in staff compensation/wages

7 upper management treated equally at $135,714 = $950,000 in compensation/wages

$950,000 + $650,000 = $1,600,000

$4,000,000 - $1,600,000 = $2,400,000

$2,400,000 for operations, their should not be any rent (paying off bonds on new building), utilitites, phones, rent and insurance for regional’s, sub state, state tournaments, awards, meetings and travel expenses, food and entertainment, lodging, office supplies and computer upgrades, website updates, forms, monthly financial reports, attorney fees, etc

Moreover, the KSHSAA maintains a $5.5 million cash reserve, more than any other state surveyed.

A $2 million reserve (or 6 month reserve) should be plenty for a nonprofit organization.
Not $5.5 million that looks like several golden parachutes.

That post is why Smokey is a valued member of our wrestling community!

It would be nice if they put these meetings on youtube or flowrestling. I'll have to check but I think the Thursday meeting is a new date. An agenda would be helpful so people had an opportunity to know when they plan to discuss the "2 proposals" on what dates and in what room - Hall of Fame room or some other room?????

NEXT MEETING
The next regularly scheduled meeting will be held as follows:
Thursday, April 22, 2010
10 a.m. – 5 p.m.
Friday, April 23, 2010
8:30 a.m. – 2 p.m.
The Board of Directors’ meeting will begin on Friday evening,
April 23 at 4 p.m., with hearings and discussion only. Final
action and 2010-11 Executive Board elections will take place
on Saturday, April 24 beginning at 9 a.m.
The first meeting of the 2010-11 Executive Board will be held
Saturday morning immediately following adjournment of the
Board of Director’s meeting. The 2010-11 Executive Board will
meet downstairs in the Hall of Fame Room for election of
officers and organizational business.
Gary Musselman
Executive Director


TWO LEAGUES PRESENT PUBLICPRIVATE
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR
DISCUSSION
Principal Mike Adams of Clay Center Community High School,
met with the Executive Board to present a proposal from the
schools of the North Central Kansas League. The proposal
would seek to change the classification of private or parochial
schools by having them moved up one classification in their
assignment following completion of the annual classification
of schools.
Principal Dale Sample of Eudora High School, Principal Rick
Johnson of Ottawa High School, Principal Dave Tappen of
Louisburg High School, and Principal Shaun Moseman of Baldwin
High School, appeared on behalf of the Frontier League
to discuss a proposal they had submitted for discussion by the
Board of Directors. The proposal from the Frontier League seeks
to change the classification of senior high schools by dividing
them into eight classes: 6A, 5A, 4A Division I, 4A Division II,
3A, 2A, 1A, and an All-Private classification.
The proposals from both leagues are printed in their entirety
on the Board of Directors Agenda for April 23-24, 2010. This
document was mailed to all member schools and is posted on the
KSHSAA webpage under the sub-heading of ‘Current Topics’.
During the discussion, all parties were reminded KSHSAA
Bylaw Article XII, Section 4, Classification of Senior
High Schools, requires proposals seeking to modify the classification
system be initiated through a petitioning process.
Representatives of both leagues acknowledged petitioning had
not taken place and their intention was to have the Board of
Directors begin discussion of the proposals on their merits. It
is understood the Board of Directors may not take final action
on either proposal at their April 23rd meeting.

Proposal by the Frontier League by adding 2 new classifications could generate approximately another $1.2 million in gate receipts from post season activities (cut that 1.2 million in
half if the private schools get seperated and decide to run their
own activities). Currently all Member dues have been reduced with all the statewide budget slashing going on at school
districts. So if the private schools get kicked into their own division - and decide to go it alone. The KSHSAA would lose those
private school member fees and the gate receipts that those schools currently bring to the budget. I do not know how many fans the private schools bring to the events but it is at least the average of what other schools bring.

Aren't we glad they have such a large reserve fund? If only our previous legislators had been as responsible!

Loss of Revenue to the KSHSAA if P/P high schools were to go on their own:

I estimate it to be $5400/$10,800: 27 High Schools x $200 per school in membership fees = $5400. However, officially, the membership fee is $400 per year per high school, but the KSHSAA halved it this year and next, so could be as high as $10,800 when reinstated.

Doubt there would be much, if any, loss of revenue in state playoffs as there will be schools qualify for post-season who would not have otherwise.

I don't think losing $5400 or $10,800 if the P/P schools were to choose to go on their own would cause the KSHSAA to shutter its windows.

On the other hand, if the P/P schools went on their own they would have to secure their own catastrophic injury insurance, probably at a much higher premium. P/P schools would find it difficult to schedule games with KSHSAA schools if no uniform system of eligibility or season of sport was adopted by the P/P schools and could/would incur more travel cost.

For the most part, other KSHSAA competitive NON-ATHLETICE activities such forensics, debate, music and scholars' bowl would not be as extensively available to the students in P/P schools except at greater cost and travel. The KSHSAA oversees and sponsors a LOT MORE than just athletics. In fact, the first "A" in KSHSAA does not stand for Athletics, it is for Activities.

IMO P/P schools dropping out of the KSHSAA would be the classic "cut off nose to spite face" move. I believe the 27 P/P schools get a lot more from being members of the KSHSAA than the KSHSAA and its other 300+ member schools would lose if they were to go on their own.

I think the proposal to split 4A into two classifications FOR FOOTBALL will receive some serious consideration.

IMO, the proposal to put P/P schools in their own classification is DOA. I think adopting a proposal which automatically "bumps up" the P/P schools one classification is, at best, extremely remote. I do think there will be some serious talk and study of multipliers for P/P enrollment, but believe its future adoption to be 50-50 at best. Keep in mind I am speaking from an area of the state that has very, very few P/P high schools (just one, TMP, that is a KSHSAA Member?) so my "world view" about possible changes by the KSHSAA is no doubt stilted.

If you use an insurance company similar to what USA Wrestling uses it would be about $35 per student/athlete or non-student/activity person per year. Catastrophic injury insurance - What does this cover now and up to how much per student athlete/or activity participant - about $1,000,000. Parents could opt out I imagine if they already have good coverage. Unless it were required by a new governing body. KSHSAA could potentially lose the revenue from gate fees and annual fees from the one proposed division. Although they would potentially have 1 more classification. It all boils down to how many fans each school brings to games and what those gate fees collected are and what percentage the KSHSAA keeps.

"cut off nose to spite face"
IMO - that is what the proposers are saying to the Private Schools - you should have your own division we do not want to compete against those schools. But the KSHSAA would like to help set up several tournaments with your volunteers and we will take 70 percent - how does that sound.

Using the most recent numbers available.

Currently, On average with a $4,000,000 budget divided by 300 schools = $13,333.33 on average each school helps the KSHSAA budget.

Some schools bring more fans than others so I just used averages.

So if there were fewer schools and families involved and they made more classifications to raise more money - I am having a tough time figuring out the motives here. The discussion is healthy - but could someone explain to me the benefit of diluting the competition.

I read the audit of KSHSAA last year and thought it raised a lot of questions. The salaries for exec staff seemed very high for one. I also did not think it went into enough detail. I believe Smokey hit at something Will has been kind of stating for a while, but not real clearly - and that is the unholy alliance between KSHSAA and coaches. KSHSAA takes most of the gate from playoff events, so they are for any expansion. The coaches also benefit from the expansion. If I am right, 50% of the football coaches get to say 'I took the team to the state playoffs this year'. So any expansion of the playoff system will benefit both groups as coaches get to claim more success. Only the fan is left in the dark. Most of them do not know how many teams make the playoffs. And, that is what this whole proposal is about, some coaches out there decided it was easier to get to state if they cut the odds in half again or by eliminating competition. Why work harder, just change the rules.

On the NCAA expanding the NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament to 96 teams:

“I think it’s a foregone conclusion that that’s going to happen,” he said, although coaches should be careful not to rely on just “making the tournament” for job security. “Coaches think we’re dumb,” Perkins said, of guys who think being the 94th or 95th team in is golden. “That’s not going to save your job.”

From an interview with KU athletic director Lew Perkins in the Lawrence Journal World a few days ago. I am a huge KU fan, but not so much a fan of AD Lew Perkins.

In the NBA (which I don't care much for either), 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. In MLB, only 8 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Thanks to District play being introduced in football way back, we went 1-5 during the season and swept our District to make the State playoffs at 4-5 (class 4A). Went on to lose in the first round to Norton by a couple of touch downs on a freagan cold night.

My point is, to be the best at 4A means a lot. To make it to State in 4A means a lot (even if you are a mediocre 4-5 football team that just happened to jell at the right time of the year). If 4A is split, being a State Champion will mean less, and making it to State will mean even less.

Off to another sport, my nephew's baseball team (Hayden High) won the 4A State Championship in baseball last year. A majority of that team had played together since they were probably nine years of age. They beat KC Ward who had won six straight State Championships, and had beaten them the two previous years at State. From what my brother has told me, and he should know since he coached those youngsters back when they were 9-14 years old, there wasn't any recruiting involved on that squad. It was just a bunch of kids that had played together a long time and learned to play the game the right way.

ReDPloyd. Think you just added to the reason for the issue/prosals, etc.

Of the 64 4A schools, only four are private (4/64=1/16=6+%). In last year's state baseball tournament, two of the four semifinal teams (25%) were private private schools. Hayden was the champ and Ward took third. The year previous you said Ward was the champ and beat Hayden--that again signifies 2 of the four semifinalists were private schools. You then go on to say that Ward had been the champ for the previous five years (a Ward run of 6 straight championships in BB). Was Hayden in the state tournament in those other years--can't determine since KSHSAA online brackets show only the current year. Did Hayden make the state tournament those other years--the final 8. Some where in there I bet they did.

So, for at least two years 100% of the champs were private schools, and 50% of the semifinalists were private. The previous five year 100% of the champs was a private school, and we can not determine with the information readily availbe if there were other private schools in the tournaments. Thats two consecutive 100% and 50%, and a minimal five year run of 100%. Pretty good when only 6% of the total number of schools are private.

Does there need to be any additional explanation of the issue.

HELP! Question for anyone--Is the KSHSAA rule still in effect that limits the number of high school "squad" players on an off season sports teams, for example, 6 of 11 on a clubb soccer team. Have looked the the KSHSAA and can not find it. This rule went in in about 1995. -If still a rule, in my opinion, the worst rule in the KSHSAA book? If not the direct cause of the current mess, this rule certainly exacerbates the situation--especially in small town Kansas. If it is still a rule I will explain in a later comment

Found the "Practice and Participation" "squad" rules. Not one rule, but a rule laid out in the General Rules for each individual field sport, i.e.: BB, BB, FB, VB, soccer.

Will explain why this is a bad rule later, especially for small towns, in the "KSHSAA Private and Parochial School Sports forum Topic.

Have to go to a middle school soccer game this AM. There are few if no off season sports (club or recreational) for middle and high school age kids in KC-especially for a growing Hispanic population. In KCKS HS soccer is 95+%% Hispanic. So, USD 500 two years ago started a middle school socer program--Great. Doesn't cost much, every MS fields a big team, and what I think is significant is that it brought a lot of inner city white, black, and Asian kids into the sport. Besides, USD 500 has none of the country club sports that other schools spend money on.

Ward actually took 4th!

Thanks for the correction.

Way out in small town Colby, what is yhat 15 miles from either Goodland or Oakley along I-70--don't now how far from other small towns, has the "practice and Participation' rule effected HS sports and the ability to put off season club, AAU, etc teans together. It surely did in Leavenworth and Lansing. Explain later. Would not like to hear you just ignored the rule--think some do.

Contrarian,

My two posts, just for clarification, were meant to back private schools, and not back splitting 4A into two 4As. Just for clarification.

Maybe so, but your use of the baseball championships draws attention to why the split of 4A, the multiplier, bump a class, or separate the private schools is being proposed!

Was something you may not want to have highlighted!

Everyone needs to read the posts under the 6A and 5A Moving forum.

Not going Back to the Intrust.

Just read the article in the Wichita Eagle covering the Public/ Private school issue. I find it interesting that the Board had a rep from Missouri discuss the multiplier they implemented in 2002. Prior to the multiplier, private schools won 33.2% of championships the prior 10 years. Then the following 5 years with the multiplier, the private schools have won 33% the last 5 years.

And that is what I have thought and predict is what would happen in Kansas too if we do the multiplier. I just don't believe it would make that big of a difference in the number of state titles of some of these teams like the Aquinas soccer team that have caused the big discrepancy. The teams with the long term good coaches with a lot of state titles are going to keep winning the state titles or would still have won a lot of state titles at a higher classification. Aquinas soccer did win in 6A and 5A, just like the Hutchison football team also won state titles in 6A and 5A. The great teams have the great long term good coaching and tradition. What it will really hurt is the majority of the private school teams that do not have the same type of success records as the Aquinas soccer teams, the Miege girls basketball and volleyball teams.

WICHITA EAGLE ARTICLE 18 April 2010

Public-private classification dilemma a common issue among high school associations
Other states have developed methods to compensate for private schools' successes; Kansas officials have spoken with Missouri about its system.


Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/04/18/1273988/public-private-dilemma-a-common.html#ixzz0lUFmSN4p


Fairness in athletic competition between public and private schools has been talked about for years in Kansas high school circles. Two proposals last month seeking to make private schools compete in higher or separate classifications were warning flares to the rest of the state.

The board of directors for the Kansas State High School Activities Association, the state's governing body for high school sports, will meet in Topeka late this week to talk about — but probably not act on — the ideas.

The association's executive board, meanwhile, has already investigated a third option — multiplying private school's enrollment by a pre-determined figure to determine classifications.

Change may be years down the road, but the talk is getting serious.

"Our intent is to get the discussion going on how do we resolve the issue that a lot of members have with the perception, right or wrong, that private schools have an advantage," said Clay Center principal Mike Adams, a board of directors member who helped draft one proposal to move the 26 private schools up a class. Another is splitting private schools into their own postseason division.

The multiplier system

In March, executive director Kerwin Urhahn of the Missouri State High School Activities Association talked to the KSHSAA's executive board about the private-public school issue.

"We recognized that we have people that have gone through the process before in a neighboring state," said Bill Faflick, the City League director and executive board member. "We wanted him to come in and share some of his insights as to what they did."

Urhahn spoke for more than an hour and offered some of the hurdles Missouri faced, as well as school response after the 1.35 multiplier was put in place.

"I think there could be some legitimacy to the multiplier," said DeSoto principal David Morford, who is on the executive board and helped write the proposal to split private schools into their own classification.

Bishop Carroll athletic director Larry Dostert doesn't want to see change to the current system but sees the multiplier as a better option.

"If it was forced on us, the multiplier I could live with. I think we can compete at the 6A level," Dostert said. "I think it would be extremely unfair to eliminate us from postseason with the public schools."

Missouri adopted the 1.35 multiplier in 2002 primarily because many public schools felt they weren't on an even playing field with private schools. In the previous 10 years before the multiplier, private schools won 33.2 percent of 581 titles. Private schools make up 12 percent of the association's membership.

"What it did was (it) shifted non-public schools into larger classes," Urhahn said.

For large private schools such as Christian Brothers College High outside St. Louis, little has changed. But for Helias High in Jefferson City, change has been drastic.

"We had 32 state championships (in multiple sports) through the 1980s and '90s," said Chris Hentges, Helias' football coach. "We had more than any team in the state. When the multiplier came in the early 2000s, we've only won one state championship. There's no school that has been affected the way that we have."

The multiplier frustrates Helias president Didier Aur, especially because in baseball, softball and volleyball, Helias plays against schools three times its size.

"It's something that's unfair," Aur said."... Have we accepted it? Grudgingly, yes. There's absolutely nothing we can do about it."

Under this year's enrollment figures, a 1.35 multiplier in Kansas would move Carroll from Class 5A to 6A and Collegiate and Independent from 3A to 4A, but Kapaun Mount Carmel would remain in 5A and Wichita Trinity would remain in 4A.

A good option?

Not all think the multiplier is the answer, including Douglass athletic director Scott Dunham, who prefers separate classes for private schools.

"I think there are impacts and effects with it that I don't know that we could see immediately," Dunham said. "I think with the multiplier some of the issues and concerns that they have in terms of fairness and equity might still be there."

The multiplier system doesn't necessarily do everything its proponents hope for.

A multiplier system didn't change the number of private-school champions in Missouri. Private schools won 33.2 percent of the state titles in the five years before the multiplier was enacted, 33 percent in the five years after.

Since the change, the issues between private and public schools have lessened, Urhahn said. He's been told by a committee made up of members of private and public schools that the issue isn't really discussed anymore.

"It's what I call a cosmetic fix," said Ralph Swearngin, executive director of the Georgia High School Association, about a multiplier system. "A lot of people like that something has been done, but when you analyze, you realize there's not much substance there."

That was true in Georgia. Georgia went to a multiplier system in 2000, but dropped it before the 2006-07 school year because the same schools continued to win.

Faflick, who oversees a league with seven public schools and two parochial high schools in the City League, thinks all KSHSAA schools should be treated the same. He said a multiplier doesn't address all factors.

"Do you put in a multiplier for programs where the coaches have had longevity for more than 10 years? Do you put in a multiplier for schools that have no parent participation?" Faflick said. "Private and public is just one factor. Do you put in a multiplier for urban vs. rural? I don't know why that one issue is one that's being identified. I think it's much more complex than just public/private.... All of those things impact winning championships."

Headed for court?

If the KSHSAA and its member schools vote to change the bylaws regarding private schools, the association could face a lawsuit. The Missouri and Illinois associations were sued shortly after going to a multiplier.

Missouri's 1.35 multiplier was initially arbitrary, but the MSHSAA won its case because it found that 35 percent of students in public schools didn't participate in extracurricular activities. Private schools typically are near 100-percent participation because schools insist on it.

Thirty-nine private schools immediately sued the Illinois High School Association in 2005 when a 1.65 multiplier was enacted by its board of directors. The association asked member schools to approve it, which they did by a 5-1 margin.

Gary Musselman, the KSHSAA's executive director, said fear of a lawsuit regarding private school classification won't halt possible change.

"The guiding thought has to be doing the right thing and what the majority of the membership supports, whatever that might do," Musselman said. "If lawsuits arise then you have to deal with them. Nobody wants to be spending time and money on lawsuits when you can be spending them on programs that you're conducting for your students."



Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/04/18/1273988/public-private-dilemma-a-common.html#ixzz0lUCygvzu

Wow after reading that I am even more convinced that a multiplier is not going to change anything at the top just like in Missouri and Georgia in that article.

Yes, Colby is on I-70 about 20 miles from Oakley and 35 miles from Goodland. I only knew the results from last year at the State Baseball Tourney because I was there as I coach baseball in addition to wrestling. The restrictions do not hurt too much in baseball as there are not nearly the same amount of summer restrictions on baseball like there are in some other sports such as football.

There no longer any KSHSAA restrictions on summer coaching.

Any idea on when there will no longer be restrictions on FS/GR coaching by HS coaches?

There are none in the summer.

I know that, I am talking about right now, in the spring when wrestlers need their coach.

Have never seen it as a proposal for consideration from the KWWCA and/or any league; so, probably not any time soon.

I unfortunately can't see that happening any time soon. For the record, I would support that change. I think most coaches would support a change, but most administrators would not at all. The reason that was given to me was that it would cause friction between the coaching staffs of different sports at a school. (?)

I could not do too much in the spring with wrestlers because I'm the head baseball coach at CHS, but a couple of our coaches on the wrestling staff could and I could help out here and there if I was allowed to do so!

Have never seen it as a proposal for consideration from the KWWCA and/or any league; so, probably not any time soon.

Question on a KSHSAA rule. Why are only football, volleyball, and basketball coaches restricted from coaching their high school kids from Memorial to Labor day--except for their one week camps.

Baseball and softball are summer evening, cool of the day, sports. Recreational and club soccer are fall and spring sports--hardly no one plays soccer in the summer---way to hot, a kid coulg die of heat stroke in July and August.

Too be contrary, I don't care for HS coaches coaching their HS players outside the HS season. Leads to favoritism--play on my HS team or you don't play on my club team--play on my club team or you don't play on my HS team. It Happens--especially where you have near by multiple club teams.

Damnit Contrare, we were just starting to get along, and you go and make another dumb statement. The summer/spring coaching is nothing but good for all involved IMO. The few that are victims of favoritism need to do something about it, by either working harder, or showing evidence to the administration of this favoritism. MOST of the time, it is "percieved" favoritism. On the youth football team I coached, I had only 2 kids that were also on our youth wrestling team, and I had to listen to the moms talking behind my back about me playing favorites to the wrestlers. I ignored it, but wanted to say, "maam, there is a reason those two hardnosed nasty wrestlers are playing in front of your sissy kid........"

I have seen what you speak of, and have actually seen the reverse of it, where a coach was actually stupid enough to think that high school softball was the "real deal" and that just because "you" play summer ball doesn't mean you are good enough to play HS ball. The coach actually had a discriminatory attitude toward the girls that play summer ball. I wanted to break the news to her that most HS teams couldn't win a game against most of the competitive summer teams that the girls played on in the summer........

You just have to deal with it. We are always trying to make rules to take care of the very few that it affects, to the detriment of the 99% that it doesn't affect.

More often than not, the off season coaches do a better job of disciplining the kids because, the coaches usually don't have the fear of their job being on the line. Also, anyone that has the patience and willing to take the time to work with the youth has only one thing in mind. Help the kid become a better person and student. I have the utmost respect for these off-season and non-paid season coaches. They are a HUGE factor in the success of the high school academics and sports. A big thank you to all of them!!!!!!!

Doug, Doug, Doug.

My son letttered and wrestled and played soccer all 4 years in highs chool. Played club soccer in the HS off season. Got along great with the HS soccer coach--both h and I. Thought he got more, or at least a different perspective, techniques, plays, game plans, etc from his soccer club coach--they actually complimented each other. Did not wrestle after the HS season--wanted him to--but also recommened he go to another coach--same reasons: coaching style, learn different techniques and styles.

When I talk about favoritism i am refering to my nephew in Missouri. Pretty good baseball pitcher. His HS BB coach was also the American Legion BB coach--plus each high school was aligned with a specific American Legion Post BB Team--not by the legion, but aligned by all the coaches of all the teams. If you wanted to play Legion you had to play for the coach's HS team--and vice versa- and all the HS /Legion teams and coaches were like that.

You said you were accused of favoritism--and you were not coaching HS teams. You deserve a lot of thanks and kudos from your community and team parents. You are one of the few who steps forward and Say "I will do it (coach). I also coached youth sports at different times: T Ball, baseball, basketball, football and soccer--coached U8 girls soccer last year--great fun!!.

Still do not favor out of season coaching by HS coaches. Kids need a break, coaches need a break. Better for everybody.

When are you comming over for a fried bologna sandwich?

There are no longer any summer coaching restrictions on any KSHSAA sports.

Remember my sandwich was cold bologna and lettuce, garden tomatoes, and mayo.

The fried bologna was eaten with a fork with nothin' else......

I prefer to call what those coaches in MO are doing as smart!!!!!! Get 'em to play more, makes their HS teams better!!!!!

And the favoritism I was referring to was only an example of "percieved" favoritism that I believe 75% of favoritism probably is. 25% of the accusations are probably warranted, the rest "my little Johnny is better than that kid, but just because that kid brought the coach an apple to school, he is playing right field instead of Johnny....."

But I think Cokeley was referring to "during school" coaching of kids. Right now thru the end of May, during school, there is a lot of FS GR wrestling going on, and it would be nice for the HS coach to be able to help out. As a matter of fact, a lot of HS coaches could LEARN something by being allowed to help out. Never mind the extra "bonding" that could take place to build team chemistry..........

I know that this was proposed to the KWCA but I have no idea what Coaches Alley and Keal did with the proposal. FS and GR season should be starting the weekend after HS Folkstyle State. We need those coaches who want to help and those wrestlers who would like to have it to get it. It is about the freedom to choose to coach and to be coached. There should be no room for mandating anything by these coaches or wrestlers. We all know the coaches who care the most, coach the most and usually win the most.

Opinions, everyone has one, some, too many.

If you want home grown tomatoes in NE Kansas you will have to wait till mid to late July. I don't plant tomatoes till at least mid May, sometimes Memorial day. Ground is too cold, plants just sit there doing nothing--plus there is the possiblity of frost--have seen it frost here in mid May.

My wife just bought two topsy turvy things hoping to get tomatoes earlier, nothing better then fresh tomatoes.

Mother earth does a better job. My mom tried those things and they grew itsy bitsy tomaters.........

We plant our tomatoes on Mother's Day weekend. I would like to have a small greenhouse so we could have fresh tomatoes year round.

Actually, Will, now that you mention I seem to remember a proposal a couple of years ago, the basic gist of which was as follows: greco & freestyle are very, very different than folkstyle and therefore, since they (greco & freestyle) were not KSHSAA sanctioned sports they did not fall under the purview of the KSHSAA. I thought it had a chance. . .might want to dust it off and take another run at it.

I thought at one time some legislation passed for swimmers working with clubs in season and the same time as high school but other sports were not allowed to do the same. Why do the rules vary from activity to activity?

That was the way I was suggesting last year that we should try to approach it under current KSHSAA rules. Maybe it would work this time.

RULE 4 of the KSHSAA Handbook: May be what Smokey and Husker were refering to--also agree that swimming may have had a special exception at one time-also some other sports-I remember at one time baseball was considerered an individual sport and the not effected by the "participation" "squad" restriction..

UNITED STATES OLYMPIC COMMITTEE-SPONSORED NATIONAL TRIALS AND COMPETITIONS
Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)
Art. 1: Notwithstanding the other rules of the KSHSAA,

a student may participate as an individual (not representing
his or her school) without loss of interscholastic eligibility:
a. as a member of a National Team (and the actual,
direct tryouts therefore), which is defined as one selected
by the national governing body of the sport on
a national qualification basis either through a defined
selective process or actual tryouts for the purpose of
international competition which requires the entries to
officially represent their respective nations, although it
is not necessary there be team scoring by nation; or

b. in an Olympic Development Program, which is defined
as a training program or competition:
(1) conducted or sponsored by the United States
Olympic Committee (USOC); or
(2) directly funded and conducted by the USOC
member national governing body (NGB) on a
national level (e.g. NGB national championship
competition and the direct qualifications
therefore); or

PROVIDED, HOWEVER, participation as described in
(a) and (b) above is an exception to the other rules of
the KSHSAA only if:
(1) the participation, if during the school year, is approved
by the student’s high school principal,and
the KSHSAA is notified in writing by the principal
at least 30 days prior to the start of the
program; and
(2) the student makes prior arrangement to complete
missed academic lessons, assignments and tests before the last day of classes of the credit grading period in which the student’s absence occurs; and
(3) the student misses no KSHSAA-sponsored postseason
athletic event involving a team in that sport.

When I buy my plants in late May, all that are left are "Leggy" plants--tall and spindly. Thats OK. Either dig a deep hole or a ternch and then bury the root ball and stem. All the hairs on the stem become more roots.

When I buy my plants in late May, all that are left are "Leggy" plants--tall and spindly. Thats OK. Either dig a deep hole or a ternch and then bury the root ball and stem. All the hairs on the stem become more roots.

Vince,

I may be remembering your suggestion or maybe it was also a proposal--can't remember clearly. May have grown some legs if presented (again).

If I remember right Vince compared it to a xcountry coach in the fall then being a track coach in the spring and coaching long distance runners.

Contrarion: You coming around. First, I thank you for your service to our country! 2nd. I apoligize for some of my harsh responses to you. 3rd. You know how to plant tomatoes! And, you must of grown up in the era that bologna was a treat because you bought that and it wasn't farm raised. I couldn't wait until harvest for bologna sandwiches for lunch. Now if we could get you to lean towards the libertarion or conservative side, the conversion will be complete.

Actually I am a registered Republican---but more of a moderate, a centrist, an independent. Can'tand won't go to the extreme--right or left.

That is exactly how they got it by the association in Oklahoma, unless it has changed since I coached there in the early 90's.