The "20" Second Stall Call.

I am new to this forum and have been intrigued by many of the subjects and discssion topics that I have read. As such I wanted to add one of my own. I like most attended one of the state wrestling tournaments from this past weekend. I actually worked one of the tables on the 5A side on Friday and Saturday so I had a great seat for most of the two day event.

Let me start by saying that I witnessed a lot of great wrestling and tough officiating. I have officiated multiple sports over my time and officiating is never an easy task. I've always said, you will please 50% of the people 50% of the time, and generally that 50% changes throughout the competition.

With that said, there was (1) item that I would like to hear opinions on in regards to the officiating at the 5A & 6A state tournament. This item is of course, "Stalling."

As I watched the Championship Finals for both classes I became continually frusterated with the Officiating and what I have come to call the "20 Second Rule." Over and Over again I watched as Wrestler (A) secured a 1st Period Takedown, obtain an escape point/reversal and then never make another offensive move for the rest of the match. Meanwhile, wrestler (B) scores (2) escapes or a reversal and tries despreately in the final period to make something happen.

What frusterates me about this situation which occured over and over again, is that the Officials in nearly every match allowed the activity to continue. That is right up until there was roughly "20" seconds left in the match. For some reason, that seems to be the magic number when an Official feels comfortable enough to finally warn a wrestler for stalling. Of course by this point in time, there is no way he is going to award a stall point in the final 20 seconds therefor in my mind, he or she has gotten themselves off the hook.

My understanding of Folkstyle wrestling is that "Both" Wrestlers are supposed to be working for Offensive Takedowns during he match. Not the first (4) minutes. I know everyone has a different opionion of what stalling is so I am not looking for this post to sway anyone's thinking. I simply want your thoughts.

I for one would like to see more stalling calls within the first 30 seconds of a final period rather than the final 20 seconds. Especially when it becomes apparent that (1) wrestler has no intention on being offensive.

I heard that there was dang near a track meet at the 4A meet in the middle weights.

My one big complaint about Kansas Officiating is the Stall Call. You are 100% correct. They will call it in the last 20 seconds but not the rest of the match. More Officials need to make this call sooner.

I absolutely agree there should be more stall calls all around. I have seen it way too many times and the wrestler get by with a win like that. In most tournaments I simply say that we don't wrestle like that and their approach will someday catch up with them. However, when it matters, every ref should be on the same page and more calls made.

Stalling, I have found in my 6 years watching Kansas wrestling, is considered a "technique" here. It is advocated by many Kansas coaches (kids club and high school) and rewarded by officials. I have always told my son not to allow a ref to decide a match and to wrestle hard all three periods. Unfortunately it has cost him a few matches and his high school coach advocated a "slowing the pace" method that others used against him. Myself, I would rather see him lose wrestling than win by dancing (personal opinion of course)But, it is a FACT that in the higher weights (189, 215, HWT) the refs WILL NOT CALL STALLING, except when it is too late to offer any reward to the wrestler who is aggressive. At the 215 championship in 5A this year the Liberal wrestler stalled for almost three periods, backing up all period without a shot in the second or first at all, although the GE kid was up by one escape and attacking Liberal with many shots. In the third period Liberal escaped, 1-1, but took advantage of a bad shot by GE gaining a 3-1 lead. Then Liberal laid on the GE kid for almost a minute and a half, never once moving but wrestling the hands so GE could not base up. GE finally fights and gets a reversal at the edge, 3-3. Liberal down position, with 6 seconds, GE gets called for locked hands with 2 seconds to go. Liberal wins. A great match to say the least, complaint: Pacheco DID lock hands, congratulations to McPhail, BUT if you are not going to call OBVIOUS stalling for fear of interfering in a match, then why let a tech call make a state champion...should of went to overtime. This is where the inconsistency in stalling calls becomes crucial. No offense intended to the refs, I know they are told to lay off the stalling calls in higher weights, and I would not of wanted to be in their shoes. This of course is my opinion. Wrestling is for wrestlers, NOT ballet dancers

What is offensive wrestling? Someone attempting to score a take-down. I saw far too many wrestler rewarded for pushing, instead of rewarded for attempting to score a take-down. I believe that makes for a boring match. I saw the 152 lbs. semi-finals match decided on a stalling call. The sport is to gain advantage by scoring a take down. Not by taking your opponent off of the mat (That's Sumo Wrestling). That's boring. The objective was to push him off the mat to gain the stalling point, not score a takedown. In fact, the pusher hardly ever attempted an offensive attack.

Offensive Wrestling atleast in my mind is enacted when a westler takes "Legitimate Shots." Meaning he or she, Changes Levels, penetrates, and places the Opponent into a defensive position. Pushing someone around the mat is perhaps "Ring Generalship" and has it's place in a sport called boxing.

I am certainly not advocating an official should call stalling just because another wrestler is pushing another wrestler or charging at his opponent in a wild manner. There is certainly an art to defensive/counter wrestling and it has a place in the sport. We could talk at length about stalling on top/bottom, however those seem to be called a little more actively and I am not referring to fleeing the mat. Just focusing on stalling from the neutral position.

During the 5A Tournament, there was a consolation bracket match that was 6-4 going into the 3rd period. There was a very young Official on the mat and he warned the Wrestler in the lead for Stalling with about 1:20 left in the match. He awarded (1) point with about :35 seconds left and when the wrestler in the lead changed nothing about his approach, he awarded another at :05 seconds left. "An Absolute Awesome Job of Officiating." This lead to a 6-6 OT match. The match was eventually won by the Wrestler who had the lead throughout and rightfully so, he was the better wrestler. Case in point however, "He had to earn his victory."

I would like to have seen this same type of officiating in the finals matches. They were not all this way, but there were a lot of (1) point matches that should have been barn burners but saw (3rd) periods where the most action was when the Official raised his hand with about 20 seconds left to "warn" one wrestler for stalling.

Protecting a lead with stalling is taught at all levels. Watch D1 wrestling if you want to see the experts work their prevent defense (stalling) after securing a TD. Nothing wrong with it! The elite wrestlers have it down to a science and I enjoy watching it. I watched a much anticipated 152 semi match where there was some really good prevent defense going on.



One of the 160 qtrs at 4A was also decided by a horrible stall call. The kids were permitted to handfight for 5 minutes and 50 seconds then comes the stall with 10 seconds left. Why decide to bang the kid with 10 seconds left? If you're going to call it...call it early on IOT set the tone and send a message to the wrestler that hand fighting on the edge isn't gonna work! Don't allow it for nearly the entire match and then decide who moves on with your fist!

I agree not enough stalling calls! At least in College if your top man and the stalling is on the bottom as was in my sons match he would have gotton riding time points! I prefer offensive wrestling style probably why I'm looking forward to Freestyle.

If you are not trying to legitmately imprive your position, top or bottom, it' stalling. If top is dominating and not attempting to improve his posution it is stalling.

Several years ago I saw the New Jersey State tournament on TV. Probably 75% of the matches were pushed along by stall calls. Lots of matches reversed in the last seconds due to stall calls forcing the action. The refs looked like a bunch saluting Nazi's playing switch'em. Every match a scramble, the best HS wrestling I have seen. Plus, every wrestler announced as going to a major college wrestling program.

1 more stalling call never made:
- When the bottom wrestler gets to his feet and the top wrestler runs him right out of bounds.

Kansas officials wouldn't know stalling if were wearing a sign that said "STALLING" on it. And there is an incredible difference between D-I defense and Kansas high school stalling. D-I wrestlers are constantly circling and trying to stay in the center of the mat. It is only when they back straight up that they get called on their feet. In Kansas, it is only stalling when you turn your back and run away.

Consistency is what I am looking for from the officials. It is almost a "personal taste preference".

At 130 Semi's Stokes was called for stalling twice and quickly.
It was a great match and there was nothing wrong with those calls.
Would that all of the officials followed that lead.

But then to have 5:50 of wrestling with no call- come on man!

The stall calls should of been called more and quickly specially in championship matches. Then 152 match was boring in the semi. One was pushing the action the played the edge. Should of been more stall calls. Make them play more than less.

Here's a few things that I think would incentivize kids to work on the mat:

Add the push out rule like Greco-Roman did. If you step out of bounds, the other guy scores. If you get pushed out, it doesn't mean you're stalling, it means a bigger or stronger guy is having his way with you. He should be rewarded for gaining and using an advantage.

If you hook both legs on top, you get about 10 seconds to turn the kid to his back. If you can't stale mate. A second time, stale mate. A third time, you're stalling.

If you take a side head lock from the rear and don't turn your opponent in 10 seconds, same rule.

The infinate holding with no intent to do anything is hard to watch.

Erik Hinckley

I totally agree my son lost due to this stalling or the apponant stays at the out of bounds line and every time he would take a shot the kid would spraw out of bounds my son lost 1-0 the ref finally call him for stalling 15 secomds later the match was over this is bull and i saw it mostly out of the team their names began with aakakakjsjksk maybe you all can figure that out they are 5a if the kid would have wrestled I am sure we would have beaten the kid maybe they should go to freestyle pushout rule if you go out you loose a point .this may cause coaches to train to wrestle the center of the mat and we would have more exciting matches instead of layed back in your seat Im gonna score 1 pt then stall all the rest of the match because the ref is afraid to ding me for stalling because if he dose he might not get elected to ref next year come on refs do your jod if they are stalling call it after 20 seconds not five minuits and 45 sec later get the wrestlers time to wrestle or get them out off the mat

hell yeah I like you that is the way it should go to many times kids put legs in and just stay there knowing they are never gonna turn the kid refs start them over the borad just needs to read some of our suggestions, I am with you brother

Your son lost because he did not outscore or pin his opponent. Quit making excuses and blaming the match results on the official.

I watched the 5A and 6A on tape delay last night. Almost criminal the way they let stalling get by. I might not know the technicalities of some of the stall calls--for example the 5 second pinning the heel to the buttocks as described in another post/topic--but I and the majority of fans recognize stalling when we see it. I sat in front of my TV yelling "stall" Stall'' "stall". A lot of the matches were boring---as the announcer stated "many wrestlers were wrestling not to win, but not to lose". When both wrestlers are wrestling not to lose----paint drying. And embarassing to the wrestlers, to their teams, and to the coaches--who probably taught the techniques of stalling.

And YES, the refs do control the matches. To get certified in Kansas it is a read at home or online lesson and an open book test. With that criteria I could be certified. Process may have changed in the last couple of years, but don't think so. KSHSSA needs to get into rules interpertation and referee training and testing--and recertification. I think refs are overly afraid of the coaches complaints and coaches evaluations. Persistent coach complaints on the mat can be handled with technical fouls--and eviction if necessary. Evaluations will wash ouy over time--good overriding a few bads--and the best refs will be invited to the regional's and state.

Come ON refs, get with the program!!!!!

Big Irv what match are you talking about?
Dan Gentzler AndoveR Central

no the ref never call we shot and shot and shot taking him down just about everytime but they kept going out of bounds and the ref never called it the other kid i dont think he ever took a shot just worked the out line the ref called stalling with 15 sec to go

MY son lost a match with 10 sec left tied up in the third period due to what i say is a terrible call when you have two great wrestlers let them do the battle dont let a ref decide the match

Just thinking outside the box here- but I take it that big irv and pick wont be joining the thank you officials thread on this site. Winning is alot like drinking- when its happening, everyone is your buddy. When its not happening, I already had enough friends anyway.

Dont get me wrong i respect the officials have been involved in this sport for 13 years.I just dont beleive big matches should be decided this way.

this thread has gone from some valid opinions what stalling needs called earlier and more often to "My kid got screwed". I ask that you read the "125lb 3th and 4th place" and look at the posts from both the kids fathers. There are always going to be contested matches, and yes once in a while we as parents feel our kids gets screwed. But that is the way it is in sports. Think about if you are saying your kid is getting screwed more than once or twice. If so you are probably just making excuses. It will happen but it should be rare. Overall officials go a great job of a thankless, task. But we couldn't have the sport without them. My son has wrestled over 1000 matches and I only have 1 time that I feel he got screwed. And I got over it. You need to as well or you kid never will and he will use it as a excuse in the future.

JMO

So Big Irv, that's the reason we won state is because we stall. I can see you being bitter about somebody beating your son, but to call out our team is a laugher.I will start watching KC Turner wrestling video's so I can teach my kid's how to wrestle.
Dan Gentzler Andover Central

Mr. Gentzler I sent you a p m.

big irv are one of the Turner parents who almost got kicked out of Hartman when their 112 lbs lost saturday morning. That was classically embarassing.

Hey when an official pulls out the stall call with 10 I repeat 10 freaken seconds left in the match that is a wasted call. when I see any kid backing up more than 5 steps or running around on any match that is STALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAUERLY

AMEN!

Too bad we can't call the Ref for Stalling!!!

i wonder if the referees changed and called more stalling calls how many of the same people would be arguing that they didn't believe there wrestler was stalling at all. lol. this is hilarious. i have attended many tourneys in mo, and they all think the refs are controlling the matches, with too many stall calls.