What if we had 2 Regionals in 5A?

STA/EMP: 33 Ranked, 4 Ranked Teams, 6 #1's
VC/SS: 51 Ranked, 6 Ranked Teams, 8 #1's

STA/VC: 35 Ranked, 3 Ranked Teams, 6 #1's
EMP/SS: 49 Ranked, 7 Ranked Teams, 8#1's

EMP/VC: 38 Ranked, 5 Ranked Teams, 6 #1's
STA/SS: 46 Ranked, 5 Ranked Teams, 8 #1's

Tough Weight Classes (3 or more Ranked):
STA/EMP: 138 (4); 126, 152, 160 & 285 (3)
VC/SS: 120 & 182 (5); 106, 113, 132, 145, 170 & 220 (4); 126, 152, 160, 195 & 285 (3).

STA/VC: 145 (5); 106 & 138 (4); 113, 126, 152 & 160 (3).
EMP/SS: 120, 132, 195 & 220 (4); 113, 126, 152 & 160 (3).

EMP/VC: 106, 152, 160, 195 & 220 (4); 113, 132, 145 & 182 (3).
STA/SS: 120 (6!); 285 (5); 126, 138 & 170 (4); 113, 145, 182 & 220 (3).

Most Balanced split: EMP/VC & STA/SS, with 5 Teams each (ranked) & a 38/46 split on ranked wrestlers.

Interesting note: Each split had 6#1's in one Regional and 8 #1's in the other, no matter how you split up Regionals.

Maybe there is something to be said for 2 Regionals. A little more parity at each weight, for the most part. What do you think, other than I had too much time on my hands?

interesting idea.

Would you still qualify 8 at each regional? Or 4?

If 8 nothing would really change.

You would qualify 8 per regional, but the competitiion for those 8 spots would be more difficult. It would also lessen the need for 4 schools to host (a problem the past 2 years). It always seems that there is at least 1 bye at a weight at state in 5A or 6A, due to numbers. This way, it would be a full bracket at State.

Place 4 only for 5A and 6A so all schools could easily fit in once place for a single site state tournament.

As much as a good number of people would like to see a single site, all-class tournament, I don't think that the Facility exists in KS that could host it under the current format. A multiple-day (2+) may be necessary, an the economy can't support that either. I don't think we will see it happen in our lifetime, in my opinion.

Wrestling community, especially 4A folks, have been beating a dead horse for years on combining 6A and 5A--supposedly un fair opportunity of get to state. Now someone advocates, best I can tell from above, to cut the number of 5A and 6A schools INVITED to attend a regional---or reduce the number of 5a and 6A regionals.

Let me propose a change I have not seen on this forum. Revise 6A-5A-4A classes (forwrestliung only) to 48 schools each class. Combine the largest 16 5A schools with the 32 6A schools for a new 48 school 6A wrestling class; combine the remaining 16 smallest 5A schools with the largest 32 4A schools for a new 48 school 5A class; combine the smallest 32 4A schools with the 16 largest 3A schools for a new 48 school 4A class. I think these 3 classes each with 48 schools provides for a better, more equitable split by enrollment numbers. Do not think taking the 16 largest 3A schools to 4A materially affect the 321A State.

Hold four 12 team regionals with 16 plae brackets in each 6A, 5A, and 4A class. You would have to have 4 opens/byes in all opening rounds in each rgional---happens in many 5A and 6A regional already. As for seeding at regionals--seed the top 4 in each weight-seed the remaing 8 places by a draw. Also, seriously consider haveing the 1, 2, 3, 4 top seeds have to wrestle the opening round. Per weight class place 2 opens/byes in the middle brackets of the top half, and place 2 opens in the middle brackets of the bottom half. In this seeding system the top 4 seeds all would have an open round match. Have read complaints that top seeds getting opening round byes robs team points from the school of the top seeded wrestlers????? true or not??

The three 48 school classes levels the playing field and odds on getting to State. If we are going to do something, it will have to be unique or KSHSAA won't consider it.

Does this make sense? Think about it!! Comments!!

I agree and take it one step farther. Take only eight for each class to the State Tournament. Then we could get all classes in the same building. AND for the Love of Dan Gable, only place the top 4.

Great idea. I made this suggestion two years ago after all the whinning about 4a being harder to get to state.

So, if I understand Copkeley and Beeson, the 6A and 5A state tournaments would be an eight man bracket tournament, and we would do that so we could have all classes,654321A, in one in one building.

First, the 6A and 5A eight man tournaments could and should be wrestled in only one day--think the rule book may say that!

1. Doubt there is a big enough building in Kansas.

2. KSHSAA will never buy it--reduced 6A and 5A tournaments--or combining 6A/5A into a 64 school classification. Those 64 schools probably have 60-70 percent of the Kansas HS population--45321A has the other 30-40 percent. Talk about inequity!!!!

My 48 school classification for the biggest 654A 3 classes has a lot more good points to consider.

3.

I like the idea, however, it needs to go a step further. Wrestling only needs 3 classes. The 64 largest schools, the next 96 and everyone else. If that cuts to deep into 321 than drop 4a to 64. You run 8 district tourneys in the big class with the top 2 going to state and you wrestle a true 2nd place. You can still run all classes under one roof with 16 man brackets. Just make it a three day tourney. Why do we feel we have to wrap up every thing in 2 days?

I can not speak for Mr. Cokeley, but my suggestion would be that all State Championships 6A,5A,4A,and 321A all be reduced to 8 man brackets. Then they could all be held in the same building. Only Place the Top 4.

Money and loss of classroom time.

$$$ only- classroom time is already lost on Friday. Making weight for 3 days would be a huge change for the athletes.

What he and others are proposing is adding another day to the tournament. So at least one more day would be lost in the classroom.

Friday- Saturday- wrap it up on Sunday- NO class time lost.

I used to buy KSHSAA's lost class time argument until I saw the schedule for 321A state at Hays this year. Kinda shoots holes in their case.

In one of the posts on this forum (LOw attendance at League Tournaments) there was discussion on PROMOTING HS WRESTLING being necessary to expand/grow the sport in Kansas.

Reducing the state tournaments to 8 man brackets is a reduction of the program. One of the biggest reason to participate in any HS sport is the athletes' desire to get to the state tournament. Can not see that a reduced state will help the program, especially if we recognize that at state the seats are filled mostly with the families (and maybe close friends in a few cases) of the wrestlers on the mats. Do not think an all class 8 man bracket state tournament fan base will off set the loss of fans with 16 man bracket tournaments.

Added: I think the KSHSAA philosophy is, within time and money constraints, get the max number of student athletes into a state tournament. The current classification system does that! If you want to change the system you will have to devise a scheme that gets 16 wrestlers per weight to each of 4 tournaments. Any thing other than that is blowing smoke. Combining 5A and 6A is a loser at the git go. Getting an all class state under one roof with a friday/saturday format is not in the future--primarily due to the lack of a facility in the central part of the state (Salina, Manhattan, McPherson, maybe Topeka, etc). A 2 1/2 to 3 day tournament would be a lot more expensive for everyone--schools and fans--another night in motels, eats, another day of tickets and concessions. Can envision half full stands on a third day as the fans and wrestlers eliminated in day two go home.

SUNDAY events in Kansas??? Surely you jest!

Yes this is somewhat of a strange thing, but remember this is an exception to the rule, as FHSU is hosting Western Reginal for DivII wrestling, on Saturday, and Sunday, this is the only reason for this change.

I realize it is a unique situation, but if missing an extra day of school is no big deal this year then why is it ever a big deal?

Missouri starts their state tournament today and runs all classes in 3 days in split sessions for the first day and a half, then combines at the end. Their kids don't seem to have any more academic issues that any one else.
It's an amazing event.

Not strange at all.
All the really good/serious wrestlers are well familiar with Sunday wrestling. Remember they have been doing it for years on the kids circuit and state.
Not saying I want to do it at HS state though.

If Missouri and Colorado can have their state tournaments at one site then Kansas can. Both of those states have an far greater population and still fit into one building. We should have 2 classes for Wrestling 6A (32) 5A (32) the top half of 4A (32) then the bottom 32 teams in 4A combined with 321A. You would get about an equal number of teams with wrestling as a sport. Have two qualifiers like on the USAWKS circuit. More KSHSAA sanctioned activities is more revenue for KSHSAA. Not to mention less arguing on which class is better and less complaining about population size.

dont tell me about "missed class time" that is a joke and an excuse! Yesteday my kids went to every class for 20 min and got out by 12:30. Counted as a full day, but was a total waste of time.

It absolutely is an excuse. It is THE excuse KSHSAA has used in response to the push for one state site.

IA started on Wed with the state duel championships and rolled into the state tourney Thu-Sat. It's standing room only for 4 days. Yes, we are not IA or MO but it works. KS stands so stubborn on its own ideals the we put blinders on. Folks, we are not that different from our neighbors. Our school sizes mirror IA. The 1700 student size difference did not prevent Waverly from winning the IA state championship. Making weight 3 times is only an issue for those that lack discipline. We don't know what attendance would look like going to a three day tourney but one thing is for certain... Nothing will change unless we are willing to change. We are paralyzed by unfounded fear.

The Issue in all four wrestling classes is the inability to fill the brackets. I just did a finger drill on the brackets on four regionals: Garden City 6A, Emporia 5A, Fort Scott 4A, Eureka 321A. GC 1st round was 96% filled (108 of 112 slots filled--how did they do that????), Emporia 5A was 72% filled (31 opens of a possible 112 slots), Fort Scott 4A only 64% filled (79 opens of 224 slots, Eureka 321A--with 24 schools--was 76% filled (53 opens of 225 slots---Note: Eureka had one weight class with 17 1st round wrestlers—with 24 schools in each 321A regional would have expected there would have been more classes with over 16 entries). So, problem is state wide and in all classes---not enough wrestlers.
Because 5A and 6A schools wrestle the bigger and better tournaments (for those that have adequacy issues--translates to much better competition over the season), in many cases 5A and 6A wrestlers will probably have the less stellar records (translates to more losses and less wins)---they beat up on each other. A 6A or 5A 14 and 14 record—even a 10 and 18, or worse, probably means they have faced tougher competition all season and suffered some hard knocks..
I just did a finger drill on the brackets on four regionals: Garden City 6a, Emporia 5A, Fort Scott 4A, Eureaka321A. GC 1st round was 96% filled (108 of 112 slots filled--how did they do that), Emporia was 72% filled (31 of a possible 112 slots open), Fort Scott 64% filled (79 of 224 slots open), Eureka--with 24 schools--was 76% filled (53 opens of 225 slots). Evident something has to be changed. Doubt you kids wrestler folks are going to be able to produce enough kids who grow into high schoolers to fill the brackets. The age-old 4A argument that they have to qualify in a tougher two day 16 bracket tournament may no longer be valid.. Plus, Chiefs All Class rankings clearly show that 5A and 6A wrestlers dominate in the rankings. Again better tournaments and better competition, and perhaps bigger and better wrestling clubs in and around the bigger cities. And Yes, there are some really great small wrestling schools, programs with great wrestling traditions: Colby, Columbus, Abilene, and agree about Ark City etc—also thought Ark City run was in the 80s and 90s---things have changed. .
Urban core 5A and 6A schools have an unsolvable wrestling problem: no hard core inner city tradition of wrestling. But, don't play those schools in basketball--you will probably get your ass handed to you in a basket. KC HSs take only 5 or 6 kids to a match, a tournament, a regional--probably a couple of schools in the Wichita area do the same, same for Topeka--T. West had only 8 wrestlers.. Still, the best individual wrestler come out of 5A and 6A—IMO they get that way by beating up on kids from 4321A HSs who venture into the real world when and if they enter kids in the top flight tournaments (Bobcat, GE, Baldwin Invite, Holton invite, etc.
Evident something has to be done. Question is what. Combining 5A and 6A is not a total solution. Cutting the number of weight classes for Kansas wrestlers. What do you chop out—eliminate 285 and 106—that gets you down to 12—does anyone care about shrimps and fat boys—that’s harsh and don’t intend to hurt anyone’s feelings. I did a 48-48-48 reclassification—was not supported. Coach Pigorsch from Clay Center has offered up a 32-32-32 reclassification with smaller 32 4A schools shuffled down to 321A. Have not seen any support for that either. Don’t really see what that does. Opens are still opens and will continue in 32-32-32. Might help fill some brackets in 321A. Might also put a halt to 4A bitches.

in 321A you have some schools that are co-op schools that will only have one or two wrestlers, so the 24 schools shown being at the regionals can be kind of misleading. Also it leads to showing more opens in the brackets due to the fact, but I do agree that overall we still have too many opens and I honestly feel the new weight classes didn't help that any but that's another story.

Got it. But the schools list states 96 named wrestling schools in 321A. If there are co-ops, don't think the name list would include the co-ops. So, does that mean that 321A is pulling kids from more than the 96 named schools (i.e., 96 plus the co-opting schools). Regardless of what it means, still too many opens--in every classification.

The spread of school sizes and enrollments, 2300+ down to 30 or 40, combined with the large number of 321A schools, creates an equity problem in how do you design a statewide HS wrestling program thar treats everyone the same/fairly. Probably can't be done. The current 32-32-64-96 classification system may be as good as any other system that can be designed. If wrestling community wants some changes, it will have to be done within the 6A, 5A, and 4A----and combining 6A and 5A is not THE SOLUTION!! Regardless of opens brackets in 6A and 5A regionals, most of the statewide wrestling strength is at the bigger school--its quality and not quanity!!

My proposal was for 2 classes in Kansas with 2 qualifying tournaments leading into the state tournament. We are a small size in population, so it makes no sense to add another class. I say take the top 32 in 4a and combine with 5A and 6A take the bottom 32 in 4A and combine with 321A.

Sorry if I misunderstood or misquoted you. But, your quote above is confusing. Initially you state 2 classes--then you indicate three 32 school classes: 6A 32, 5A 32, 4A 32, and a bigger 321A class with o/a 128 schools (current 96 321A schools plus bottom 32 4A schools). Number don't work for two 32 school classes--would have to combine all 64 4A with all 96 321A schools.

I believe he wants a combined 6A/5A/4A state of the largest 96 schools and a combined 4A/3A/2A/1A state with the smallest 128 teams.

OK. Have to do some serious a mental drills on a regional and state organizatiion using those numbers. Would probably be best if Coach P would come back online and explain his suggestion on how to organize a 96 and a 128 classification that is fair, approximately, to all wrestlers. Lot of permutations of how to get to a regional and state organizational plan.

96 big schools: possible twelve 8 school regions, or eight 12 regions, or six 16 school regions, or four 24 school regions, or two 48 school regions. Then how do you get an even number of wrestler from each region to state. Bigger question; how do you mollify wrestlers, coaches, fans, KSHSAA on the reduced/lost number of state tournament slots? Previously three 16 bracket state tournaments (3 X 16 qualifers=48 qualifers per weight). Proposed: one 16 bracket tournament with 16 qualifers). Net loss of 32 slots per weight class. Big change!!!


Similar problem with the 128 smaller schools--how organize. Adding 32 4A schools to the smaller class will not add state tournament slots.

He mentioned a two-step qualifying process similar to USAWKS kids. Probably 8 - 12 team "subs" and then combining two of those "subs" at 4 regional tournaments to fill the state bracket. And of course, the smaller schools would start with 8 - 16 team "subs" combining into 4 regionals the same way. Only a guess, though. You know, kind of like a north and south for every regional, or possibly a east and west.

In 4a there are 64 schools in the 4A Classification but only 59 schools have wrestling and they divide the regionals up for example 1 has 14 and the other 3 have 15 SO an even number does not matter and should not make a difference as long as the numbers are close. With this you would have a class with 96 schools in it (Big Class). The small class would have 128 schools classified not all have wrestling though. The small class would need more schools because they usually will have less athletes out for wrestling (this helps get rid of the opens at regionals problem).

I also stated above that if there were only 2 classes for wrestling that you would have to have 2 qualifying tournaments as in the USAWKS circuit for example 8 Sub Regionals, then 4 Regionals, then a 16 man State tournament for one class and the same to be done for the other. You could even place up to 8 kids with this at each state tournament. Obviously the bigger schools class would be tougher, but if it is equality you are looking for without watering down competition this is a reasonable way to set up High School wrestling in the State of Kansas.

Ultimately there is not going to be a FAIR way of making a change. I just think that having 2 classes and a tougher qualifying system would overall be better and have a more competitive system for Kansas Wrestling.

Here's an idea: Lets get modern and go with an RPI calculation like the NCAA to qualify for state. Qualify a certain number based on RPI ranking, then throw in a few wild cards for injured kids. We don't have to have 16 man brackets which is too many for current classification system. Could be 10 or 12. Have an automatic conference tourney qualifcation so the kids with bad records still have an outside chance. Seed the brackets based on RPI. Each bracket could have different number of qualifiers based on wildcards and conference qualifiers. The benefit of this is we could throwout the regional weekend, then use the extra weekend for a Grand State like back in the 70s. I've seen high school level RPI rankings so this could be done. I'm sure there's software out their or some computer geek firm that would love to do calculate the RPI.

We don't have to complain about overly strong regionals and weak regionals. Many other benefits to this like actually earning your way to state, state seedings would be fairer and not aritrary chance.

Just progressively dreaming, but the idea has merit.

Difficult to accept any tournament format that is not strictly based on head-to head competition with last man standing. RPI is like rankings---too many variables, ifs, etc. If Kansas can not come up with a better system, let's at least keep what we have. [