Unnecessary Roughness?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhkfHA9spc0&list=UUOFWsbhl3MgH2PHAI2Ff6Dg&index=1

I have my opinion but would like to hear from the wrestling community. Is this legal wrestling or not? It was filmed in the Wichita area last weekend. Description is in the You Tube post. First elbow thrown at 0:07 seconds into the video. Bottom wrestler cautioned for stalling at 0:39 seconds of the video. As noted on the You Tube post this is just a portion of the first period. The full match is also on You Tube.

It is a stalemate and the ref should not allow the wrestler on top to just "soften up" the bottom guy with elbows - wrestling is not the UFC or MMA. You can use pressure to work for a fall but not drop elbow bombs. Driving on the wrists to get a power half would be working for the fall.


Click on link below - around 9 minutes on the video talks about legs in stalemate
Note: The man talking in the video is pretty knowledgeable about the sport.


http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/videos/VideoID-1481/


Stalemate
When wrestlers are in a specific position where it is unlikely that either of them will be able to score, the referee will call a stalemate and the wrestlers will be reset in the appropriate starting positions. To signal a stalemate, the referee will curl the fingers of both hands and touch his knuckles together in front of his body.

Illegal Hold & Unnecessary Roughness
If a wrestler uses a technique that is deemed illegal, or is unnecessarily forceful when performing a specific move, the referee will blow his whistle to stop the match. He will then raise his arms and touch both of his palms to the back of his head. He will then award points to the appropriate wrestler.

http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/videos/VideoID-1481/

I agree with you but it doesn't seem as if the ref does.

I think it is comical when a guy has the legs in like that, and the guy on bottom (who can NOT move) if flailing trying to get up, and top guy looks at the ref with that "bottom guy isn't doing anything" look. And his coach is yelling "make bottom guy work!!"

I assume they expect the bottom guy to just flop over to his back, and if he doesn't, it is stalling......

I could hold Kenny MOnday down on the mat if I got him in that position.....(don't tell him I said that though)

At USJOC, we had a kid wrestling a kid that had a double arm bar, and his chest on our kids' back, not even thinking about coming off the hips, and 5 seconds into it, the kids' coach was yelling "stalling, make bottom guy do something!!". I had to politely (maybe) tell his coach to shut his trap and tell his kid to come off the hips.......

I agree with doug747, when a guy throws both legs in and then the bottom guy wont just roll over, so many kids (and coaches) act like the bottom guy is not working to improve. The bottom kid in the video was trying to work legs free, which I take as trying to improve.

Good post for discussion...

Although the video from a distance is hard for me to see elbows thrown...I agree with doug747...there are certain positions where a wrestler cannot improve. He is stuck. Like this position in the video. The bottom man cannot improve. From an official's point of view, as long as he "attempting" to improve then he should not be penalized.

Ball and Chain comes to mind as well. If he is not turned soon by the top man, it should go to stalemate, just like what I see in the video.

The top guy is stalling. He does not appear to be trying to turn him so much as just ride withotu ever really putting a move in to turn him. At minimum it is a stale mate! He is also guilty of unnecessary roughness from what I see, though the camera angle is not great!

Often unnecessary roughness and official's negligence can go hand-and-hand. Below is a link to a video displaying negligence by an official that lead to a season-ending shoulder injury for Cole Moses from Maize High School.

Best of luck to Cole in his surgery and recovery.

Cole Shoulder

I would think in that position the ref should call a quick stalemate. If they return to that position then the intent to stall is there and in this case it should top man warned for stalling. It's not that hard but seems to never get called. Kind of like a kid shooting in on the leg towards the end of the match while ahead and not trying to finish the shot. This is stalling but the never ending excuse is "how can he be stalling when he made the shot"

Maybe this is why that ref that let Cole get disjointed wasn't at USJOC. He's never been one that has made my Christmas card list......

Pretty obvious that was a "potentially dangerous" position, or should we say "dangerous period" position........

The top man is as obligated to improve his position as is the bottom man. IMO, top man should have been also been warned for stalling; he should have been made to work perpendicular to his opp0nent as he was implementing no pinning combination in that position. I think there may be reason to believe there was unnecessary roughness. . .though hard to tell from the video due to point of view and the distance.

Thanks to all for the information and opinions. Can't change the outcome of the match, but wonder if anything can be done to stop this from happening again. #1 would be to not let anyone get both legs in again.

doug, for what it is worth, I think anytime a kid on top looks to the ref and holds his hands up like that it should be unsportsmanlike conduct. I taught legs, specifically the turk series as hard as anyone has, and we never let any of our kids do that, and if they would have I would have been after them to turn them. You know as welll as I do that there is a myriad of ways you can turn a man when you have the legs in and he is flat and if you are working at it and he clams, then he is stalling but that showboat crap should be penalized. Kids ought to be taught that they aren't referee's and if they haven't been taught that at home or in the wrestling room then the ref ought to help that out with an unsportsmanlike penalty for essentially showing up the bottom man and the referee. Might be old school, but I sort of like old school. See you at the Bobcat.

Yes, yes, and me too.

I would agree with a stalemate, especially if neither man is improving position after about 15 seconds with both legs in. Hard to tell from the angle about the unnecessary roughness on the top wrestler.



Jason Storm

I agree

I was there and saw it personally and it should have been stopped as potentially dangerous before the injury occurred. This is in reference to Cole Moses and his injury at Tulsa Union. His arm was being forced way beyond the normal range of motion which is what the official should have been considering.

Agree with J.Dale . . . a quick stalemate call would have been what I would have wanted to see called. Otherwise . . . yawn, yawn.

Stalling top man. He can improve, he's choosing not too.

How does this get communicated to the refs that are not making the proper calls. At the tournament this weekend I saw the same ref make the same call several times. Top man with both legs in doing nothing, bottom man stalling. One of the other refs was consistant, top man one or both legs in or hooked up with a ball and chain, he would give the controlling man about 15 seconds and then call a stalemate.