HS Regionals - Open Spots & Team Scoring

Currently a team is not awarded points for meeting an open spot in the bracket unless the wrestler wins their next match. This is WRONG.

In 5A and 6A all regionals have eight teams competing. Many of these teams do NOT fill their roster. Since we keep TEAM score and crown a TEAM regional champs, these open roster spots should be scored as FORFEITS. A wrestler should NOT have to win his next round match to score team points. It is not logical to score this way. If a team doesn't bring a wrestler it is not in the opposing team's control. Advancement and Bonus points MUST be awarded immediately when you encounter an OPEN roster spot or you are penalizing a team for brining a full line up. How can anyone think this is ok?

Thoughts?

For once cokely i agree with you.

For once cokely i agree with you.

Looks like SJA might be looking for some more points for their Regional battle agianst STA.

STA does have a few open spots, But SJA would not benefit from all of those opens. But someone would - on the front side and the back side. Makes sense to me.

Mark

http://wrestling.isport.com/wrestling-guides/a-guide-to-tournament-scoring-in-wrestling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_wrestling

Forfeit: If one wrestler fails to appear on the mat at the start of the match for some reason, and the other wrestler appears on the mat, the wrestler on the mat at the start of the match is automatically declared the winner.[15] The winning team in a dual meet is then awarded six team points.[12] If during the course of a tournament, a wrestler wishes to no longer participate because of illness or injury, then his opponent wins by medical forfeit,[15] worth the same number of individual and team tournament placement points as a forfeit.[16]

If your team doesn't have a wrestler participating in a weight class then he/she couldn't appear if they wanted to. If your team doesn't have a wrestler they are going to fail to appear for the match. Simple.

Failure to fill your roster should allow other teams to earn the same number of points as a fall or you are basically encouraging coaches to leave inferior wrestlers home. If there is a TEAM championship awarded you should FILL your team or suffer the consequences. A TEAM with a full roster should not have their ability to earn team points handicapped by a teams failure to fill a roster.

The rule, as it stands, to only award points if you win after being matched up to an OPEN roster spot is absolutely WRONG. There is no debate Sean.

Every time a wrestler gets a bye --because some of the tourney programs automatically push the byes to the higher seeds—that wrestler is in danger of losing the opportunity to gain the 1st round points if they do not win their next match. It has been like that for a long time. I would love to be a team with a full roster, so the idea that that teams with rosters that can’t be filled should suffer the consequences is a fact as we already do. If I had the kids to work with to fill the roster it would make us more dangerous—not everyone has that luxury. That being said, if the higher seeds are not given the byes and are guaranteed matches instead of the byes, then that might partially help the problem. Otherwise, we are all handicapped by the same situation, so it is an interesting discussion, but it will not change for this season, so, you are right--there is no debate-- the rule is there already.

www.kshsaa.org/Publications/Wrestling.pdf

I think coaches would prefer having all 14 wrestlers give their best effort, win and/or place at regionals and state.

There is luck of the draw who gets a bye and who does not get a bye.

There is no luck involved in not filling your roster. This obsolete rule flys in the face of a level playing field. Although I agree with you Tate, a team is penalized by not being full, there should be no "luck" involved for teams that do fill their rosters. If it were a dual event there would not even be a thread. Explain to me how showing up without a full roster at a regional tournament where team score is being kept, is any different than a dualing another team. If you roster is not full one team suffers and the other prospers. It should be NO different here.

I also agree with Cokeley's comments.

Another acceptable answer from my perspective, since there SHOULD BE AN ADVANTAGE to achieving a higher seed then I think it would be fair to match the lowest seeded wrestler that actually are at the tourney to the highest seed (as is currently done) but give the first bye to the 8th seeded wrestler, the next bye to the 7th seed,...
Perhaps I'm wrong. I realize that anyone could beat anyone. But if I was a high seed then that is how I'd want to disburse byes.

What if someone doesn't make weight or is sick and never weighs in? Has to be a BYE, OPEN, FORFEIT or what? It happens every year. What if wrestler gets kicked off team or ejected from tournament previous week prior to regionals. It would be great if every 8, 12, 16 man brackets were completely full. What if your 106 pound freshman (who has not won a match all year) can pin your 220 pounder who hasn't won a match all year. Do you develop them or throw them to the wolves and see if they will come out next year. The individual tournament scoring format has been in place for a long time(it is not dual meet format) - maybe it is time for a change. But it might have to be done at NFHS Wrestling Rules Group, A Coaching Association, KWCA or KSHSAA Wrestling Rules group.

I agree with Will on this one. I really dont think the rule will change. BUT One way you could give your kids a better chance at a first round match is to not have them seeded. This would not make the coach very popular as those "bracket busters" would likely mess the bracket up entirely. It would though give him the potential to score the most team points as he would almost be guaranteed a first round match with a seeded wrestler.

In an 8 man regional bracket, if you catch an OPEN spot you can only score team points on the front side if you make the finals. Does that make sense?

Right on target Will...The advancement & potential bonus points are huge in those tight team races...Saw it first hand back when I was asst coach at ol' Osborne High 25+ yrs ago during the MCL tournament.

Correct there is no debate. I did not make the rules.

But I strongly believe that someone should have to win a match to
gain any team advancement points in an individual tournament.

Are you guys saying a wrestler that goes 0-2 in the tournament but gets a first round bye should get 4 points for his team?

That I do not understand?

I agree that a wrestler should have to win to gain any points. Just showing up does not mean that you automatically score points.

When a team doesn't present a wrestler the opposing team who has a wrestler wins the match. Surely a forfeit is not a foreign concept to Chad and Sean.

Fill your team or suffer the consequences. Do you really want to encourage teams to leave wrestlers at home because they are afraid they will go 0-2? If a wrestler works out all season, makes weight and another school doesn't have anyone for him to wrestle he should earn points.

Do you understand that if you encounter an OPEN in the first round the only way to score team points on the front side is to make it to the finals!? A wrestler wouldn't be 0-2 in the case you highlighted. He would be 1-2.

curious,
1. do you think he should score 4 points or 2 points for a bye? 4 points would be the same philosophy as a dual score. 2 points would not.
2. you are suggesting that wrestlers earn a victory for each bye they receive all year long the same as a forfeit? (I hardly think it makes sense to just do it at regionals, afterall they keep score in every meet all year). this would add 5-10 victories for many kids through the course of the year. Im not buying a kid going 0-2 and earning 4 team points and a victory.
Im not in favor of a kid possibly earning 10 wins via byes, and 40 team points throughout the year without winning a match. A kid could add another 5 or so wins that he received in dual forfiets, not win a match all year and have 15 wins on the season. this might allow him to have a winning record at regionals and earn a seed. arghhhh

So.. a forfiet at a dual is ok to count as a victory but a bye (forfiet) at a tourny isnt, to me its the same thing, which ever team doesnt bring a full roster is forfieting the open spots matches in the bracket. Right?

Most byes go to the high seeded wrestlers anyway.

Bullseye!!

Byes do not go to higher seeds. Byes are drawn in randomly either by the computer or by hand.

Shoot it could be worse than that. For instance, a large tourney such as Basehor. A kid could get a bye on the front side, earn 4 team points, lose a match, and get a bye on the backside lose a match and score another 3 team points. He would have 2 victories and 7 team points without winning a match or maybe even scoring a point.

First we need to define a BYE. That is when there is NO TEAM to present a wrestler into the bracket. For instance, if you only have 15 teams and a 16 man bracket there will be a BYE. You should apply the traditional point earning to that situation. If you have a team that doesn't have a wrestler it would be an OPEN ie. OPEN Silver Lake so that would be a forfeit. It is not the opposing team's responsibility to fill other teams' rosters. If you don't bring a wrestler you don't earn points and the other teams get a forfeit. Simple.

And in a dual tourny with 2 forfiets he would be 2-0 with 12 team points. Whats the difference, either way its a forfiet because the opposing team didnt bring a wrestler.

Now you might have a viable arguement if you change the meaning of a bye and an open. How the heck do you spell check on this forum?

Thats what I was trying to say in my original post.

There is no spell checker..

Random draws for byes is a myth in my opinion, almost every tourny that my son has been the 1 or 2 seed in a non full brcket he has had a bye.

www.kshsaa.org/Publications/Wrestling.pdf

Please read page 12 of 44

1.G.1 and also read NFHS reference numbers

I understand what some are advocating - but I also understand the rules as they currently stand.

We all know what the rules are! That's the point of this entire discussion.

I agree with Will. There is a big difference between a "bye" and a "forfeit".

Are KHSAA wrestling events team events or individual events?????

Uhhh oh

Harry is right on the mark. The reason behind is that the bye is placed by a blind draw. There is no perfect fix for all's views but no way someone should score points for not winning a match. Everyone has the same chance of drawing the bye or not getting it. What was harder as a wrestler was not getting that match to help with wieght and then as a coach wanting that chance at bonus points. (Harry we had a couple regional titles that came down to one point here or there so those byes were a big part) What I think is a bigger crime is having a 8 man bracket in a state qualifier. Thats not getting your best kids on to the dance.. for an old guy Harry is still pretty sharp.