Observations

Since the brilliant ones changed the weights Ive witnessed kids getting held back, and Human Growth Hormones being taken because they where to light, which sounds ridiculous to me. I have noticed 106 being loaded with talent all across the board 6a,5a,4a,321a...113 looking really tough at the top but maybe not near as deep. Overall think that weight changes have had a more negative effect!!
ONE CHANGE THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN is making the high school rules the same as college!!!!! The ultimate goal is to get there so uniform the rules on out of bounds, stalling, riding time...ect..... riding time would eliminate the stalling on bottom man never being called anyway!!!
Anyway just some thoughts!!

I agree 100%. Out of bounds rules need to change to college rules. Way to many discrenary calls being made on the out of bounds that are causing close matches to be controversial, and shutting down alot of offense for anyone near the edge. Riding time should also be implemented. The only reason I would suspect they are not is because of the score clock requirements to have the riding time in sight, and the size of some of the mats. Weight changes I dont really have an opinion on. I cant stand the out of bounds rule for, and really think these kids need to learn to get up, changing riding time would encourage that.

If the out of bounds rule is changed to same as college, then many tourn. will need to add on to their gyms to keep the same number of mats. One Tourn. that comes to mind is Newton.

Bobcat doesn't have enough room either but ALL of the big venue tournaments do. Philosophically, HS officials are LOOKING to call out of bounds and College officials let the action happen. When there is a scramble the out of bounds rule in HS becomes too much of a judgement call. Stalling is SO inconsistently called that we really do need riding time.

I personally would like to see stalling at the minimum and fleeing in some cases when the offensive wrestler runs the defensive wrestler out of bounds to get a fresh start on top or to avoid getting stalling called for not attempting to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. It gets called about 1% of the time! Tell me what defensive wrestler is running out of bounds so he has to start all over on his hands and knees again???

F/s Greco rules go out give up 1 point awesome... That rule was actually made to force action and award aggression

Don/t know enough to properly respond to any of this. My only comment is I don't think high school wrestling wants or needs riding time. We already have to much and to many beached whales laying around the mat. To me, we need active refs throwing warning and stall calls to keep the action moving. If the defending wrestler is not truly attempting to escape---WARNING or STALLING! If the offensive wrestler is not actually moving to improve his position---WARNING or STALLING! Fake attempts to avoid warnings and stalls, and to waste clock time: senseless movement, tugs, twists, turns,etc., are easily recognized by the fans and should be recognized and ignored by the refs. Maybe wrestling needs a soccer RED CARD for faking--2 reds and your out!!.

First of all, please keep the soccer lingo off the wrestling forum please. If anything soccer needs to be more like wrestling. Not the other way around.

Secondly, high school wrestling NEEDS riding time simply because wrestlers should be rewarded for riding an opponent out. At the higher levels it gets harder and harder to turn your opponent. I have seen a lot of time where kids have gotten close to getting back points, but the bottom wrestler was successful in getting out of near fall criteria for more than a one count. It's hard to ride the better guys for 2 minutes and in my opinion the top wrestler should be rewarded for doing it. Stalling on top should only be called if they are riding the hips without attempting to turn, riding an ankle without attempting to break the opponent down, dropping to a foot/feet without attempting to work up the body, and/or not ATTEMPTING to bring their opponent back to the mat after they have stood up. If the bottom wrestler is flat on the mat the top wrestler should NEVER be hit for a stall call.

For those of you who don't think riding time would bring excitement to wrestling, then check out Jay Borschel's semi's match at the NCAA's in 2010 and listen to the crowd after he gets a minute of riding time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR8DpBpNH5o

It takes an educated fan to understand this. That is why the rules have been changed in football to generate high scores. It keeps the passive fans watching.

Thank you GNR. But notice all anyone wants to comment on is the out of bounds/riding time etc. Not one person commented on the HGH issue. I believe if it's illegal in pro/college/olympic sports then it damn sure should be illegal in high school. The argument from KSHSAA is that they don't know how to test and they are afraid of testing a kid and it being negative and them getting sued. They don't worry about a lawsuit by family of a kid that is hurt by an athelete that is on these things and KSHSAA knowingly turns their backs. There are 3 states that test. Texas, New Jersey and Illinois. Now we will hear the argument of well my son is on them because he's to small. So what now? Do we screw 99% of the kids because of the 1% that need these things? Or do we say make the choice? Sports or HGH. KSHSAA WILL NOT address these issues because they don't care. Google any of the "pins" and they will lead you to "fitness" websites for bodybuilding. Here is a quote from one of these sites----

Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Norditropin HGH within the Anabolic Steroids category.


I have sat back and said nothing waiting for this subject to come up. Bash me all you want I don't care. KSHSAA is cowards for not doing the right thing for once. I have visited with them on this before and they want to bury their heads in the sand and make rules restricting travel or weigh in rules. How do high school kids gain 50-70 lbs in one season. I would never single any kid out but what kind of parent or doctor in their right mind would do this I don't know. Bash me if you want hell bar me from the forum I DON'T CARE. IF IT's WRONG IT'S WRONG.
Now let the trash talk begin.


PS- KSHSAA wake the hell up.

What the hell J. Dale. Is that rant about?? Wow!

As for the rest of the post. Riding time would be cool. At the Bobcat saw lots of matches where bottom kid went to his feet and top rider, just let him go. Riding time would change the way you wrestle, hence returning him to the mat. In another note "stalling" is a touchy subject, you get called on your feet for backing up, but with, lets say 15/20 seconds left you do the same thing they don't call it. Why?

Jerry, what are you talking about? I personally do not see a problem with steroids in High School wrestling. The kids are trying to drop weight, not put it on. Educate me if I am missing something, but I don't see a problem.

Isn't that what A-Rod said?

Cokely--KISS OFF. All it was is a descriptive term (soccer RED CARD). HS wrestling is not NCAA. I have watched NCAA and riding time is not exciting---boring-boring-boring. Get them on their feet and make them wrestle. What makes kids wrestling--or any kids sport--and HS wrestling-is action, movement, etc. Why/how do some of you so called wrestling experts come up with some of your BS. If the bottom wrestler is flat on his stomach then the on top wrestler is not improving his position--and that should be the name of the game. Why reward lack of motion with "RIDING POINTS"??? Stupid!!!Bill Mason.

my son gained 20 pounds this summer with no drugs!!!!! sometimes its called puberty

my son gained 20 pounds this summer with no drugs!!!!! sometimes its called puberty it happened to all of us

About 15 years ago I happened to be in New Jersey the same time as the NJ HS State Tournament.--watched it on TV. Best HS wrestling I have ever seen. NJ refs throwing warning and stalls with both hand on both the offensive and defending wrestlers. No position improvement--warning or stalling. Warnings and possible stalls forced wrestler to take risks--which opened up the matches. Scores were reversed in many matches in the last 10-15 seconds. Hate to say it but makes KS HS wrestling look like sleep walking. I think every kid in that NJ Championship round was announced as a signer to a major college wrestling. program. Hate to say this also, but Mizzery HS wrestling is more exciting than Kansas wrestling. WHY--Mizzery refs more likely to throw the warning or stall.

then get off here and go back to NJ promot it dont diss it

NONAME. WHAT?? Your post makes no sense. At least try to write in a semblance of a sentence.

I am promoting nothing in NJ if that is what you are inferring. I am a fan and what I think is good for Kansas HS wrestling is just a valid as comments by any and all other poster. And there is a lot of BS on this forum proposed by a lot of supposed experts.

ok go kick the ball and get a red card

LOL

wait u edit that now HMMMMMMMM.........

I agree that we DO need riding time in highschool. It would make it more exciting, as the bottom wrestler is not going to stall, because he does not want to give up that point, and the top guy is going to work hard on top to stay in position, which is what most coaches try to teach while riding on top. It would also prepare our college bound wrestlers for what is to come at the next level.

Riding time would take some of the missed stalling calls away. We all know that most officals call stalling different, and it seems like every match someone is yelling "STALLING".

Do any other states have riding time in highschool?

3 or 4 years ago I saw Ryne Cokeley reverse a match and win the match in the last 1 or 2 seconds. I saw Bo Pursel do do the same thing in the last couple of seconds. In this year's BOBCAT I saw Tagen Lambotte reverse the match at the last second and beat Issac Dulgarian. These were/are historic matches that wrestlers and fans will remember and talk about for years. No one will remember or care that Johnny Nobody beat Joey Noname by riding points. What would have been the results if RC, or Bo, or Tagen had decided to just lay on the mat and let their opponents build riding points..............I forgot, what was their names again!!!!! Maybe we can go watch a quilting bee--one of the old ladies might stick her finger with a needle and we may get to see some blood----now wont that be exciting?????

Riding is "maintaining" a position---not "improving" a position. Boring-Boring-boring!

The wrestlers you mentioned are some of Kansas best wrestlers both past and current, and yes riding time may not have been a factor in these matches do to these wrestlers no willing to let it happen. If I was to guess knowing the style of these elite wrestlers you mentioned there would have been no riding time accumulated anyway.

On the other hand I have seen some great wrestlers get beat, because they were down by 1 or 2 points going into the 3rd period, and the bottom guy laid there, because he knew he had a stalling warning and a point to spare. with riding time there would not have been a point to spare, because 1 point for stalling, and 1 point for riding time.

I have to agree with Willy on the riding time (but not on soccer card). I see so many guys get on top that just maintain postition so the bottom guy doesn't score. IMO 90% of stalling is on the top man when in referees postion. With riding time, you're promoting the top man to just hang on and stall. We want to create action for the sport, not less action. Why do people think the bottom man wants to stay on bottom. If my kids are on bottom, they're more likely to get pinned, put in a near fall, use more energy than the top man because he has his weight on him and loose opportunity to score an escape or reversal.

On college wrestling, to you think riding time makes it better. To the general fan, its boring seeing a guy just ride for two minutes. Wrestling is more exciting on the feet. Also this would be an administrative nightmare. Do ADs or coaches want to find and maybe pay an additional competent person to run the riding time clock. You would have to find that person for every Varsity and JV match. Also would be an additional distraction for the ref to make sure the riding time clock is going the right direction. I've wrestled in college and even ran table on the clock, and the clock easily gets screwed up. I think college wrestling needs to get rid of the riding time clock.

Sorry--have to disagree. Riding time in HS wrestling will kill it. Don't have a NHSFed book but don't think riding time is mentioned in the book. Might be, but don't think riding time is used in any state HS wrestling. Consensus must be "NO RIDING TIME"!

Warnings and stalls force wrestlers to move, to take risks. Risks open the match to countermoves and reversals. Quicker and more warnings and stall are the answer. And if a COACH wants to argue with the ref over a warning or a stall, give the coach a warning; if the arguing, complaining or pleading continues: RED CARD ejection.

THANKS. Some one finally agrees with me. And, don't get hung up on the RED CARD--its a term and I use it to tug Cokeley's chain. Bill Mason

Few Things:

Why would you ride someone for 2 min in the 3rd and lose by 1 or 2? cut him right away.

I am a fan of riding time in college, but riding time would never work in high school. Half the college tournaments ran can't even keep track of riding time w/out problems and we would expect high school to make it happen? Riding time makes things too complicated for the average fan / wrestlers / volunteers.

I would love college out of bounds rules to apply. This is something we could actually make happen. Sometimes there is not room outside of the mat. If a wrestler is into the mat table / on the hardwood - stop the match. But if they can still wrestle, why not.

[/quote]
I personally would like to see stalling at the minimum and fleeing in some cases when the offensive wrestler runs the defensive wrestler out of bounds to get a fresh start on top or to avoid getting stalling called for not attempting to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. It gets called about 1% of the time! Tell me what defensive wrestler is running out of bounds so he has to start all over on his hands and knees again??? [/quote]


I saw my first fleeing the mat call called last night of the season and I've seen a lot of wrestling this year. This is never called. Note its technically fleeing the mat when the bottom man stands up and the top man who is still in control with a a body lock around, and the top man pushes the bottom man out of bounds. This happens so much. Referees for whatever reason are scared to call fleeing the mat. Most people don't know that college wrestling eliminated the fleeing the mat rule this year. I guess it wasn't called enough and such a subjective call that freaks coaches out, they decided just to get rid of it.

I get the technical issues with riding time but those are WAY easier to fix than the inconsistency and incompetency I see by the men in stripes blowing the whistle. I have seen kids back up for 5 minutes and never get the FIST but Saturday night I saw the fist go up twice in less than 15 seconds without ANY change in position. It is not stalling when two wrestlers are tied up and one is pushing the other backwards. Stalemate it and see who backs up on the restart. Stalling is FAR too subjective in my opinion. Any official who has never wrestled has NO clue how to apply this rule.

The reason you dont cut him is because the wrestler I am referring to on top has the ability to tilt almost anyone in the Nation at the highschool level. (many know who I am talking about). The bottom wrestler laid with arms and legs spread wide to prevent from being tilted the entire 3rd period. Riding time would have prevented this, and made the bottom guy move.

This particular incident happend a couple of years ago, but this is just one of many incidents this happens.

I remember BO's match. Ryne never trailed in the 3rd and won at the Bobcat. He trailed the whole match and lost to CJ Napier where NO second stalling was made by Mr. Conover.

Cokely, But how will implementing riding change stalling? I think riding time promotes more stalling. Out of all the positions currently (Neutral, Top or Bottom), which postion has the most incentive to stall. Its top of course, and you're going to reward them for taking less risks and to just hold on. Wrestlers will attempt less pinning combinations because it would be more risky if they and lost the bottom wrestler. You will have more fans and coaches yelling stalling on top.

I agree there is a total inconsistency on stalling calls. I blame it partially on training of the referees. When I reffed in Kansas, you only had to pass a test and go to to a meeting in a classroom to get a license. And in the meetings, there was no emphasis on stalling. I did referee in the St Louis Area, and they had more meetings and had a training class on the mat put on by the officials association and specific stalling situations were addressed. The head official also always spoke about of consistency on stalling and worked a lot with younger refs. Also they had a official who was paid to observe referees and gave evaluations.

Also, I think I've only ever met one referee that never wrestled and that was a woman. She was also a good ref.

Don't think RC's win was at the BobCat-maybe-nor was BO's (not real sure about BO's win and the BobCat ). I know all three endings happened so fast it was difficult to see--needed a video---I still haven't seen a replay of Lambrott and Dulgarian.

Willy you can watch the replay at 810varsity.com

http://www.highschoolcube.com/event/bobcat-invitational-335628