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Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84142 04/03/06 03:12 PM
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Mike Furches Offline OP
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1. Don’t ever stay at the Clarion hotel, this was the worst experience in a hotel I have ever had, and there have been a lot of strange out of the ordinary experiences.
2. If Brute says they are going to do a OTC, or hard luck tournament, don’t believe them, they screwed wrestlers and families out of money by making this promise and then giving them one match with a 1-1-1 period. They also allowed All-American placement wrestlers wrestle in this against individuals who had been beaten out. Where is the honor in that.
3. Brute is about profit, don’t let that fool you. When one of our kids had their singlet stolen, and we asked them to make an announcement about a lost or stolen singlet, they refused. I could go into a lot of detail here but in short their response was that it was foolish to expect that a parent or coach would hold their kid accountable.
4. Dante Rogers, Joey Stephens, Cole Zogelman and Kendric Maple showed what the concept of team is all about. In their matches against each other, they had fun. The Zogelman, Maple match was the funniest and most enjoyable match I think I have ever seen, including, tag team matches. When I speak about team and family concepts, these guys displayed it in a remarkable way.
5. Back to Brute again, but what is up with putting Kansas kids on the same side of the bracket in the tournament. I hate to say it this way, and I know some will assume because of my son, which it is not, but we had numerous kids on the same side of the bracket, and in many situations kids that didn’t have to be. I am convinced, that Brute tournament organizers need to understand the implications of the pocket book if 140+ Kansas Wrestlers decided to go someplace else and wrestle.
6. Competition, it was great, as good as any national tournament I have been to. Some very tough brackets with some very tough wrestlers.
7. Officials. There seemed to be some very quick calls. Trent Cox, despite what some may say, was doing great against Adamson when the official called two very quick stall and potentially dangerous situations. After the second stall call, and a point, it changed drastically Trent’s style of wrestling. Don’t get me wrong, Adamson is a great wrestler, and exceptional wrestler, I think an National top 3 wrestler but Trent got screwed on those calls. Even friends of Adamson next to me agreed on the calls and made the original comment during the match that the calls were bogus. Overall the officials on the Freshman mats were exceptional. All officials were very quick to call the stall, or potentially dangerous in some situations where they shouldn’t have in my opinion. The officiating in the match with Cox was not appropriate however, and when the official walks directly over to the people mat side watching it and makes the comments he did, he needs to quit officiating. They were uncalled for and unprofessional.
8. Another comment regarding the officiating, and I am not trying to blast the officials, again, overall did an excellent job. But the call made on Aaron Ely was absurd. Understand Ely never fully went to his back. He had the young man in a pinning combination and went to his lower back and the mat was slapped as a defensive pin. Randy and others are in shock for a reason. Don’t trust me on this one trust Randy and everyone else who saw it, it was totally a horrible call that was never even actually close to a defensive pin. Mistakes happen, it is just a shame when mistakes happen to people as good as Aaron Ely, and I’m not talking about the wrestler Aaron, I’m talking about the young man.
9. Kansas, despite all the obstacles, continues to garnish respect. Our young men act like young, mature men at tournaments. While there may have been some problems I was unaware of them. I had several officials and others coming to me making positive comments about our wrestlers.
10. Again, organization of the tournament. To start the seniors on one night at Sapp Fieldhouse, and then have weigh in’s at the same time in a venue 6 miles away for underclassmen is crazy. One of our greatest nightmares was trying to figure out how to get kids to weigh in 6 miles away and still be present to coach our kids wrestling in the Senior Division.
11. Overall, I know it looks like there was some negative, and there certainly was, but the tournament was still overall a very positive experience. What made it so though were the wrestlers, fans, and coaches involved. Not just from Kansas but from around the country. Then our Kansans have a lot to be proud of. I know that if I ever do this again there will be some organizational changes but you learn and move on. There are so many that we could all thank, the coaches, moms and of course Randy Hinderliter near the top of the list. Mostly though, I thank the wrestlers. They are exceptional young men who it was a joy to share the weekend with. Some of them taught me a few more things than I wanted to know, like how to play Texas Holdem, but more than that, some of them reminded me again of the importance of having fun. Thanks and looking forward to preseason work outs and tournaments. As for right now though, get ready for college, keep the grades up, and enjoy Summer Wrestling.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84143 04/03/06 03:51 PM
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KCWrestlersMom Offline
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I thought for the most part the tournament was great. Of course the competition was outstanding. While the ticket price was a little high ($30 for a tournament pass, even for grade schoolers!), the seating was adequate and we could bring anything in. Coolers, bags, etc. We also patronized the concessions, which were reasonably priced. The web access was great, and appreciated by many across the state!

One suggestion I would make is, if they use the bullpen format again, to call an entire bracket to a mat. There were so many mats and there was such a delay between the wrestlers being called to a mat and actually wrestling. If you heard a match called that you were interested in watching, and you didn't have the motivation of it being your own wrestler, it was next to impossible to remember by the time it came up where it was, as usually you'd heard several more come up in the meantime. It was also difficult to follow a bracket for the results, or to see a particular wrestler in your bracket that you weren't familiar with. I just thought calling an entire bracket runthrough to a mat would be helpful in that regard. It would be nice to see the senior brackets grow next year, maybe word didn't get out in time for people to plan for it, or decide between Brute and Senior Nationals if they didn't want to do both. It would seem to be a good option for talented seniors who, for whatever reason, choose not to go to senior nationals.

I want to be sure to mention that the UNO wrestlers who worked the tables, etc. were just great! They were knowledgable, enthusiastic, very pleasant and seemed genuinely concerned that people had a good experience. Good job, guys!

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84144 04/03/06 04:18 PM
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Chad Parks Offline
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Man, I feel like someone kicked my dog. In my 24 yrs of wrestling I don't think I've seen a call as insane as the one in Ely's match. I guess this is just a character builder for Aaron (Romans 5:3-4.)

Good job to all the KS wrestlers, coaches, and fans. We came to represent and got it done.


All hard work brings profit, but mere talk leads to poverty. -Proverbs 14:23
Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84145 04/03/06 04:18 PM
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Overall Brute was a great experience for our wrestlers and a fun weekend of competition. Kansas was in force. Thought I was at a Topeka or Wichita Tournament there were so many Kansas Kids. Slammers brought 13 wrestlers and medaled 5.

We brought some less experienced wrestlers with us this time and I think it was a great opportunity for them to participate at that level of competition. Some might have caught the wrestling bug and will pick up the intensity this spring/ summer.

The “Hard Luck” or consolation tournament was a good idea but did not pan out as planned. Hope they do it again next year, but limit entries to kids that go 0-2 or 1-2. This will cut down on numbers. Our wrestlers got 1 or 2 additional matches which was good for them.

Hotels. The event hotel, Crowne Plaza, was superb and reasonably priced at $67 a night.

Officials. I have noticed for a while the different styles of officiating by state (IA, NE, KS, MO). NE guys were quick on the pin and quick on the take down call compared to KS refs. Side note, my personal favorites is MO refs. You play with your head gear and you get called for stalling (they really force action).

The Ely Pin Call - Agree with Chad Parks...that was insane.

University of Nebraska – Omaha – Wow did you see those dorm rooms. Looked liked condos…half our team wants to go to UNO now.

Overall great wrestling, great weekend. See you in freestyle.

Speaking of Freestyle...did I mentioned the FREE freestyle and Greco rules and strategy clinic on the 6th of April.

What: Freestyle / Greco Rules and Strategy Clinic

Where: Saint Thomas Aquinas
115th & Pflumm
Overland Park, KS 66210

When: Date and Time: 6 April (6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.)


More info over on the freestyle forum.


Mike Flynn

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84146 04/03/06 04:43 PM
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LancerLou Offline
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We stayed at the Crowne Plaza Hotel & really enjoyed it. This made the weigh-ins very convenient. Comfortable room, friendly staff & great breakfast. Prices may seem a little high, but not compared to other cities. We paid more for hotels in Wichita.

The UNO facility was good – ease of finding a seat, moving around, convenient restrooms and concessions. Great made-from-scratch lemonade!

Good idea, KCWrestlersMom, about calling the wrestlers to the mat as a group. It was difficult to follow when you couldn’t identify the wrestlers by sight or the singlet they wore. I thought they did a good job of keeping the brackets on the wall updated.

When you have 5 Kansas wrestlers in the same bracket, they will eventually have to wrestle each other. My son & a friend we wrestling and received simultaneous stalling warnings. At the end of the 1st period the ref asked if they were from the same team/club and told them, “How about you guys do the scoring instead of me doing it.” I thought this was a smart way for him to handle the situation.

This was our first big tournament and we would definitely go again. My only complaint would be the extremely long day on Saturday. We were there by 7:15 AM and our son wrestled last at about 8:30 PM. Made it tough with the time change and losing an hour of sleep before being back early the next morning.

By the way, what happened with the “Team Kansas” photo that was supposed to be taken Sunday morning? We heard the announcement on Saturday, but didn’t see any gathering on Mat 3 as was announced.


Lou Ann Baker


Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84147 04/03/06 05:26 PM
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Rob Downs Offline
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I thought the tournament overall was a great experience. It was interesting to be able to look just about any mat and watch a Kansas wrestler. To be able to watch kids that I’ve heard about through the year, but haven’t had the pleaser to see wrestle was a total joy. WOW what a group of young gentlemen.
As far as the running of the tournament, I agree with KCWrestlersMom suggestion. The calling of the wrestler to a mat so far in advance and then scattering the weight bracket across 5 mats made it difficult to watch matches of interest. Even my son didn’t know when he was to wrestle, making it hard to get mentally ready, let alone warmed up for the match. Good luck trying to watch someone else in your bracket.
The seats with backs were great if you were lucky enough to get one. (Early bird gets the worm). With my big butte and bad back, the seats were a blessing for sure. The concession prices for the most part were tolerable, unlike last weekend in Topeka. The crowd was friendly and just about as fun to watch as the wrestler. We had some great people from Kansas setting around us. Watching the big sister of one Kansas wrestler during the match was priceless. It was a great wrestling match & she was in to it big time. He won the close match & I think she was more worn out than he was. Like I said, it was priceless to watch.
Like I said before, I thought it was a great weekend. I hope they listen to some of the suggestions being made to them. They have a good start to what could be a fantastic tournament in the future.

Thanks to everyone – we had a great year in wrestling & look forward to next year.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84148 04/03/06 05:39 PM
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Ditto on everything above. Whose sister? I missed that. UNO rocks! R.T. should be getting paid for P.R. I think our famiy knows every aspect of UNO wrestling at this point, in great detail. Thanks Ross for all the personal time. I have no complaints. Will defnitely go again. Sadly, though next year will be my last for an Edison but I might go just to watch everyone else.

Ms. Jenni

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84149 04/03/06 06:27 PM
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It was great to hear opponents whine and cringe when it came time to draw a kansas kid, a very nice showing by a class group of kids.

Coach Denny, his wrestlers and the UNO training staff were totally top notch.

I know that the officiating was different and there were a couple of strange calls (Ely)--most of those guys work in two states, and all levels of competition, they control the mat and I thought it was nice to see stalling called early and leg riders having to be offensive.

I think the one thing that came across was the "family" aspect of team kansas. It was mentioned to me several times by some Nebraska folk. A big thanks to Mike and crew for making the Wizzers happen

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84150 04/03/06 06:42 PM
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I watched all the finals for all of the seniors, and there were a few matches where the shoulders weren't even touching and it got called 'pin'. It looked exactly like Ely's match, which was insane, I was actually upset that Ely's match got called a pin, because all that was even touching the mat was the lower part of his back for about a second or two, and I seen that from the stands.

For me everything went smooth, although I had to wait a while to wrestle, it was a pretty fun first experience.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84151 04/03/06 06:57 PM
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I agree that Ely got ripped-off, but the Fowler kid from Mo.(Platte County I believe) got it even worse. He was winning his match and got called on a quick pin when both contestants were clearly out of bounds. Its too bad things like that happen.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84152 04/03/06 07:06 PM
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Yess, the referee's seemed to call real quick pins, alot of 1 to 2 second pins.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84153 04/03/06 07:33 PM
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I wasn't there but have been to UNO several times. I've seen Missouri referees quite a few times at the KB-Open and they are on top of things and great...Gary Mayabb who is also the coach in Missouri does an excellent job.

As for condos for the dorms and stuff, UNO has a beautiful campus, but have your guys go down and watch UCO in a dual next year and walk the campus...tons of money put into the athletic department and new dorms (3 different styles). Both excellent wrestling programs though.


Yours in wrestling,

The Swayz
swayz.wrestling@gmail.com recruiting help, promoting the sport& more!
Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84154 04/03/06 09:34 PM
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I feel that the way they organized what mats each group wrestled on was dumb. It seemed like they took a three year old and told him to pick the numbers.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84155 04/03/06 10:05 PM
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Jim Gaither Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by UnknownWrestler:
....... 2 second pins.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84156 04/03/06 11:23 PM
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I hate to go against my own state wrestlers but Ely was PINNED! I personally saw the match and saw tape of it which had a perfect angle of Ely's shoulders. Ely got careless and his opponent got his hips above Ely's, grasped on to his leg and arm and got the defensive fall.

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84157 04/04/06 01:43 AM
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Raider wrestling mom Offline
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I agree with most that is being stated. If you received a survey in your coaches' packet, I hope that you filled it out. The Brute staff WILL review these and make appropriate changes. The venue was much better than last year in Lincoln. The seats were great, concessions reasonably priced and staff/volunteers were friendly and helpful. The calling of matches was somewhat chaotic and hard to follow. My only real gripe is with the cost of pictures. $20.00 for one action shot? That was a little much in my opinion! I do think that this event will continue to grow and become a very respectable tournament.

A HUGE thank you to the coaches. My son appreciated your motivation and level of intensity!

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84158 04/04/06 01:46 AM
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By about 7:30 p.m. on Saturday night this wrestlingmom was grumpy (and everyone sitting around me knew it)! Way too long on Saturday considering trying to eat dinner and get back to the hotel just to turn around and be back by 7:30 a.m.

On the awards stands, I was very disappointed in the lack of wrestlers who stuck around for pictures. In my sons bracket at least 3 wrestlers weren't there. What is the point? I don't remember this being a problem last year. They also need to announce overhead who is ready for pictures, the photographers shouting didn't work.

Otherwise great facility, great campus and good people working the tables, concessions and security.


Sharon Henes
STA Wrestling - President Emeritus!
Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84159 04/04/06 02:43 AM
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This was my first time at Brute Nationals and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. The facility was great, UNO wrestlers were great, and the wrestling was outstanding.

For the most part the officiating was very good. I was next to the mat on Aaron's match and I can honestly say that in 30 yrs of being around wrestling I have never seen anything like it. I think however, the most important part of that match was the way Aaron handled his disappointment. He didn't throw a tantrum or behave in any negative way....he got his gear, maintained his composure and then went outside to collect himself. I am extremely proud of him and the way he handled the situation. I know for a fact that his behavior has had a positive impact on my 7 yr old son and the lesson he learned on how to behave during unfortunate circumstances. I know it stinks to lose but Aaron has a lot more winning and succes ahead of him.

I also agree with the comments about the Kansas folks acting like a family and cheering for everyone from KS. I had a good friend from MT that was coaching and he asked me if they made a wrong turn and actually ended up in KS because all of the support he heard and how well all the KS wrestlers were doing. Congratulations to all wrestlers from KS. You all worked hard and definately represtented KS wrestling well.

Last but not least, I personally would like to thank the parents and wrestlers from Leavenworth and Lansing for allowing me to have the privalege to coach you. It was truely an honor. The parents were exceptional with taking care of "Little Man" while I was coaching and the "Big wrestlers" were absolutely awesome at including him and showing him how to behave when he gets that age. You all are fantastic young men and it is my hope that when my son grows up he has the same character as all of you.

I look forward to contuing working with all of you during the upcoming freestyle season and summer.

Thanks again for making this a trip that my son and I will remember for the rest of our lives!

Coach Budke

Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84160 04/04/06 02:49 AM
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Nigel Isom Offline
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A 2 second pin?

Are you sure about that? There is no possible way an official would pin someone after 2 seconds!!!

Ok wait a minute, if I read my rule book correctly is says that a pin is 2 seconds! Hmmm I guess maybe the offical called it right, lol.

As far as stalling goes I know the MO refs are really quick to call it, and thats not always a bad thing. Where you see the discrepency is when a non MO kid is on their mat. They aren't used to being called for stalling so quickly. I know when I ref'd at Liberty, We were specifically told that we should call stalling quickly because its a national tournament and kids should know better, I completly agreed with it, and I thought most of the calls there regarding stalling were accurate.

As far as a defensive pin is concerned. I wasn't there but I do have faith in Mr. Furches so if he says it was questionable I might be a little skeptical. But on the other hand we all know that this is judgement material and if the official on the mat called it that way there must have been a reason.


William Nigel Isom
KSHSAA Official # 14274
USAWKS # 577
Riley KS
Re: Thoughts on Brute Nationals #84161 04/04/06 04:41 PM
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From the Stands Offline
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Sorry to disagree with you but we to have tape and have reviewed it several times - no shoulders,small of the back yes,but no shoulders.no pin. Refs are human and bound to make mistakes, it happens.No spilt milk here,it was tough for Aaron but thats the past and were moving on.No one match or one call should define anyone. Stuff happens,Aaron was not the only one.We appreciate the comments but that was yesturdays news.Lets figure out these new rules for freestyle so that kansas can continue to do some damage at cadet and junior duals and Fargo. Go Kansas

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