The recent post about wrestlers moving to successful programs begs a question � What exactly is an unsuccessful program?

What defines a program as unsuccessful? Is it numbers? Regular season results? Regional and State results?

Wellsville, for example, is a program that has always struggled with numbers but, especially a few years ago, had great success at the Regional and State level with whatever kids they had. Are they a successful program or not?

Is it about guys in the room or points at State? I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this.

I think the most successful programs have both. They have the tradition to get kids out who normally wouldn't go out, and they have great individuals in the room. The individuals combined with good coaching makes the lesser wrestlers into good wrestlers after a couple years in the room.

I don't think you can neccessarily classify a program unsuccessful if they're lacking one of these though.

That's pretty much the way I feel too. If you have 10 kids out and seven go to State each year, you're a success. Numbers are great too, but it has to start somewhere.

it also depends on the teams goal, like if the whole year you say our team is gonna win state, and you get 2nd, thats a dissapointment. but lawrence high we would of been happy with top 15, wen we got 5th we were pumped. but there are many other variables.

This is the problem that a lot of schools face in trying to build a successful program. Schools like Wellsville have facets of their program that are very good but they lack the recruitment or numbers.

Do you think that it might start with the kids program? Look at the #'s of kids that improved and learned to love the sport and set goals. Just a thought.

Having a kids program would be a great start. Trouble is that it's easier said than done.

When I was at Immaculata, we were getting interest at the high school level, but it was like pulling teeth to get kids interested in junior high. And while there was a club on the Fort at that time, good luck getting our kids interested. CYO basketball ruled.

Here in Iowa, it's all about feeder programs, four assistant coaches and lots of parental involvement. Trouble is that at some schools, that isn't possible. Here, not having a kids program makes you a failure.

Success has to be measured in relative terms. You take a program with no numbers and build it to the point that you're generating interest, getting kids out and getting some to state, you're a success. You take a program that's on the verge of greatness and win State championships, you're a success. You take a program that is winning State championships and maintain the status quo, you're a success.

It would be nearly impossible to have a successful high school program without a strong feeder program. That starts with kids programs. A lot of that is tradition. It is easier to maintain a strong feeder program than to start one, I would think. At the high school level, I believe a lot of it comes down to administrative and community support. Do you have enough coaches on staff to allow your JV to wrestle on the same weekends as a varsity tournament? Kids won't stay in if they can't compete. Do you have adequate practice facilities without staggering practices among kids, junior high and high school teams? If any of those is done incorrectly, it will adversely effect numbers.

Ah, there's the rub my dear Shelstin. You cannot maintain what does not yet exist, nor can you automatically gain the aforementioned support.

I think what I'm getting at with this whole thread was the idea that you have to start SOMEWHERE. When I started at Imac, we were pulling sophomores out of the hall that finally realized that they weren't going to be basketball stars. When they first started, they didn't know a wrestling mat from a badminton court, and those first couple of years we got whupped up on pretty bad.

But the last couple of years, those same kids became pretty competitive. They went to camps and began to do the things that you needed to do to win. One of my great regrets is that I didn't stick around long enough to keep things going, because we weren't far from creating something there.

It does take all of the things you brought up Shelstin, but it doesn't all happen at once. It's about small steps, a good plan and the right person (as in the head coach) to pull it off.

I guess my definition of a successful program is one that creates a family-type bonding, instills the love of competition, and helps kids acheive their athletic and academic goals.

But most important to me was that I wanted wrestlers to look back in 15-20 years and be happy that they were part of the team. A lot of people acquire medals and brackets, but don't gain the satisfaction that wrestling should afford every participant.

I was blessed to be part of a great wrestling community that was built by many. Team victories were great, however, my greatest satisfaction as a coach came in two different ways.

The first was when seniors would come out for the team knowing a varsity spot was very unlikely, but they gave everything they had anyway. I knew we had a family when they finished the season as a 4 year JV wrestler.

They second is when former wrestlers still call me for advise, to go to dinner, or tell me about what they have going on in their lives.

Successful is when Mikey "Coach" Bammes sends you a Christmas card!

I agree with Jilka (and NOT with Red). Hat Town always had its fair share of four-year JV All-Stars, including guys who would have placed at state had the mat room not been so packed. It also had a couple of guys who had placed at state...and still wrestled, even though they were JV.

I think the definition of a "success" differs for small and large programs. In my opinion, 5A and 6A schools should have numbers because of the size of their student body, so success is based more on results and the overall experience. However, even if a school like KC Turner wasn't such an annual contender, the camaraderie they have speaks for their program.

However, teeny schools should go by a much different barometer--is your team of six guys beating quality 5A/6A schools in duals or tournaments? Do you qualify 80% of your kids for state? Obviously, these are successes.

In conclusion, Hat Town is the greatest program ever. But others can be successful, too.

I still hear from some of my Imac kids and it always makes this old heart feel good. It makes me realize that the wins and state qualifers were great, but the lives I touched and that touched me are the best.

It was always so rewarding to watch kids grow and learn and gain confidence over the years; that was a good as any wins.

I think my years at Imac finished up with success. There's some things I wish I'd done differently (like NOT leaving), but I'm proud of the years I spent there.