I agree with Talkwrestle. Once the father explained the situation I believe it should of been left alone. I can understand how the father believed the kid was still a novice. And I to ask, if a kid won a C or D pool (Park Hill had some) where does he/she fit?? No hard, fast rules, I believe most coaches and parents will do whats right once the issue is explained to them. And, let the poor kid keep the medal. In the thread on Southern Plains we talk about increasing participation. I hope this doesn't discourage this parent from keeping his kid in the sport. He really impressed me by coming forward and I believe will be a good asset to the sport in Kansas.

I don't think that this kid should have to give back the medal either. Then who does it go to? The second place? and then they would in turn sent the second place to third ect. I mean all of our kids at one point in time or another have had a bad call made or in some way may have been so called cheated out of a win, and never was a medal sent back. I know these kids are novice but learning to lose is part of this sport even if it isn't a fair loss. And afterall, the father did come forward and admited his fault. I feel that there have been several lessons learned here and I don't belive taking back a medal will fix anything or teach any lessons. The problem would have had to been fixed at the time not after the match or especially after the tournament!

Here is my rule of thumb when determining if a kid should be in an open vs a novice class. If you have to ask the question which class is correct, then the kid is an open wrestler. You can find all the little loop holes you like as excuses to keep the kid in the novice class, but those are just that, "excuses".

We have handled this matter within our club privately, all parties including Cathy Everett have been consulted with and it has been resolved! Nothing from our club has been posted since the father admitting his wrongs and me posting the letter of apology. We are dropping this subject and if anyone has any questions regarding the situation you may approach me at the Jo. Co. Classics in Olathe this weekend. Thank you, Renee'

This seems to be a subject that comes up every year. I really think that we need some definite guidlines in place. Since there isn't it seems everyone has a different take on what a "Novice" wrestler is. Take me for instance. I was to the understanding that you could wrestle novice your first 2 years regardless of skill, so I would wrestle my son in both to get more mat time. Now that I look back, I wish that I hadn't wrestled him in novice after his first year.

My son started wrestling when he was in the 6U age group. His first year he wrestled a couple novice tournaments. His second year he wrestled a couple novice tournaments and then went to open tournaments. We quickly noticed that with a very few (1 or 2) exceptions, he was wrestling the same kids in the open tournaments as he was in the novice tournaments. His record at the open tournaments was about the same as novice tournaments, so we did not wrestle anymore novice tournaments once he moved to open events.

I don't know how you could set hard and fast rules on the development of a child's athlete ability. Each child starts at a different level and progresses at a different rate. It's up to the parents and coaches to determine when a wrestler is ready to move up. If a parent or coach take an experienced wrestler to novice tournaments to get wins at the expense of lesser competition, no one benefits. Not the wrestler getting the easy wins, and certainly not the novice wrestler on the wrong end of the "experience".

As others have noted, we currently have guidelines. None of which do any good if coaches/parents choose to ignore them or look for the slightest loophole to keep a kid in the novice division. If what you are requesting are some type of rules which could be enforced with some type of punishment then I think you're out of luck. Each year we have rules concerning more serious issues that go unreported or unpunished. I believe that the best route is for each host club to have their own novice qualifications clearly spelled out on the flyer. Should it become known that someone violated the printed qualifications then I think it is totally appropriate to hold them up to public ridicule as was the case here.
While we're discussing the novice qualifications it should be asked, how many clubs are holding open classes in the morning and the novice classes in the afternoon in order to increase entries by allowing wrestlers to enter both? One way to help avoid these conflicts would be for the age groups to run concurrently in either the morning or afternoon regardless of rating. Unfortunately, we have some greedy tournament directors only looking for the bucks.

Sportsfan,

1. No I'm not looking for a punishment, just something a little more solid than just a rule of thumb. If we have such "GREAT" guidlines already set than "WHY" is there such confusion year after year. Mike Furches is a pretty knowledgable, very honest guy, he seems to think we need something a little more concrete.

2.I don't believe for one minute, for the most part, that parents or coaches are trying to find "loopholes" to keep their kids in novice. I have seen cases of it being done, but I can only think of 1 maybe 2 in the 5 years I've been around and it seemed to be more of a parent thing than a coach. If you have a coach trying to keep a kid in novice, you might want to find a different club, because that kid isn't going to get any better that way. I think the biggest problem we have are coaches/parents not knowing the "all" the guidlines that are supposedly set. If you have any literature references to that I'm sure that would be apprecitated by all.

3.I believe, from what I understand as the guidlines of a novice wrestler, that most 6 and under kids fall under the catagory of "novice". Why can't they wrestle both open and novice? What about the 8,10,12 year old kid that comes in his first year and has the guts, but not the skill level to wrestle an open? What's wrong with that kid wrestling both?

4. You tell me what club holds a tournament "not" to make money? It's not up to the tournament director to do an investigation on each entry to make sure that there isn't a advanced wrestler wrestling novice.

The guidelines exist I don't have access to them at this time but what does it matter, when as this case proves people are going to ignore them. There isn't any confusion from year to year, but rather coaches/parents medal hunting. Regardless of how you word novice qualifications there will be wiggle room for people to abuse. That's why my personal novice guidelines are simple and as follows.... 1. If you have to ask yourself or others which class your wrestler belongs in, then your wrestler belongs in the Open class. 2. Once your wrestler competes in an Open class he/she is no longer eligible for Novice tournaments.


Well I've been around for as long as there have been novice tournaments and the ONLY reason I have seen for misapplication of the guidelines was coaches/parents abusing the system. I will grant you, it may have been parents, but who knows if that is a parent or coach on the mat on Sundays? Unfortunately, good people like yourself fall into that trap of blaming the guidelines instead of letting the blame fall where it belongs, with the violators. This thread is a perfect example, look at all that praised the parent involved simply because he came forward. Sorry, I don't believe for a second that this case in point was some simple mixup.


Of course they should make money. The key word in my previous post was "greedy". My point was, when you deliberately run the age groups for open and novice in opposite sessions you are only enviting this type of problem. I believe it is impossible to determine prior to the tournament if a kid is a legit novice so again we come back to the honor system. As I have pointed out, some people have no honor!

Sportsfan, there may be guidelines but can you point to a place where they exist? I agree a fine line between some "rule" where punishment is required and one that encourages participation. As mentioned earlier, I know for a fact they had a rule on this in OK when I lived there, I also know that there were those who abused that rule. I don't know what the answer is, I do believe that ignorance as to what the rule is, or is implied is not the answer.

Not trying to be confrontive here, just that if there is a place where the rule exists, it would be good for tournaments to go to, and at the least, parents and organizers to be aware of. Of course, when each individual has the right to establish their own rules, it don't help, at that point, prior to sanctioning, there maybe needs to be a way the state board can address the issue. I don't know, it really don't effect me anymore, other than, wanting to see kids be given a fair shot without being a step for someones over zealous parents to get a new medal.

I would also be interested if there is a national USA rule as to what constitutes a novice wrestler. I seem to remember some old timers talking about the days when everyone showed up and wrestled and there were no distinctions as to novice vs. open wrestlers. Thanks in advance if you can provide that information. I certainly know that on issues like this, there are those that know a lot more than me.

I would have to agree 1 of my kids are 6 and under and we see pretty much the same kids at novice and open. Sometimes the competition at the novice level is tougher than that off the open tourneys. It doesn't matter to him if he wins or not he just likes to wrestle. My other child is 10 and under and this is her first year. She has also been wrestling open and novice. She hasn't won a match this year in either, but she is wrestling because she enjoys it. Are we making a mistake by letting them wrestle both open and novice tournaments? My 6 year old was not a state qualifer last year.

In my opinion no,from what you've explained they fall under the catagory of "novice". It's good for them to wrestle both. Opens will make them realize where they need to be, and novice helps them wrestle kids that are at the same skill level and they can compete instead of getting thumped on. From my understanding of the guidlines a novice is considered to be a 1st or 2nd year wrestler who hasn't placed in 3 or more opens with more than 4 wrestlers. Whether or not that is truely a guidline set by the state....I don't know for sure.

Seems like there is an aweful lot of worry about the quality of mat time these kids are getting at novice tournaments. What a great problem to have. the competition is too good for the novice wrestler! Who is really gaining more here? The kid that should be wrestling Open tournaments but is at the novice to get easy medals? Or is it the true novice wrestler that has the opportunity to wrestle the Open wrestler? Good mat time is good mat time, right? The way i see it,the goal of the season up to sub-district is to get ready for the qualifying tournaments at the end, not collect hardware. how better to get ready then to wrestle above your level? if the kid is going to go for the glory at the end of the season, they are going to be facing these kids anyway, right? What ever happened to no novice tournaments? When i wrestled kids wrestling there was just Saturday wrestling & you got beat until you developed the skills to win. What a glorious day that was when you finally picked the thorn that had been in your side all season or sometimes multiple seasons & beat the kid that use to kill you on the mat. Watch your novice kid that competes in Open tournaments compared to the novice kid that competed in novice tournaments. At the end of the day the results speak for themselves.

And at the end of a decade you have less wrestlers. We are still suffering the effects of 80's when wrestling was at it's peak here in Kansas.

Sportsfan, I guess i need an education; how are we suffering the effects of when wrestling was at it's peak? Isn't the peak what we strive for & don't we want to get back to what it was at it's peak? confused

We are suffering with lower participation numbers. I believe those declining numbers have been at least partially the result of 16 hour days spent in over-crowded gyms under very trying conditions during the 80's. Admittedly, we did produce some fine wrestlers but at what cost? First, we lost all but the most dedicated parents who took their kids to play another sport. Second, because we didn't have novice tournaments at that time, we lost many of the less than best wrestlers. For those that weren't around at that time, if you had a wrestler of average size it was very likely they would see at least a 16 man bracket every weekend. The problem is, we not only lost one generation of kids but in effect two, because many of those kids who were exposed to wrestling at that time will not bring their own children back to give it a try.
I'm not one of those who thinks we need to be striving to get bigger and badder all the time. Call me crazy, but I still think we need to strive to make this sport fun. Not only for the kids but mom and dad as well. I think if we do that the numbers will take care of themselves.

Point taken sports fan. I was one of those wrestlers in the packed gym for 16 hours. When I got my 8 year old in wrestling last year, my Dad chuckled & said it was my turn at the endurance test. I still stand firm that if you have two equally skilled novice wrestlers at the beginning of the season & one wrestles novice & one wrestles open, the open wrestler will be a better wrestler at the end of the season as well as more aware of his skill level. Thanks for the insight.

Here's something for everyone to think about. I'm from western Ks. There's no novice tournaments out here. Everyone gets thrown to the wolves out here unless you travel east or to wichita for the novice tournaments. Kids have all different kinds of skills. Some pick up wrestling skills quickly and some take a few years. Some do great early and others struggle. I have 3 boys. (skill levels are a wide range) My oldest won 11 open tourn. and a trip to state his first year. And has had success every year after. My middle son went 0-15 his first year which included two novice tournaments we traveled to. His second year he went 1-22 with 2 novice tournaments and the only reason he won was because the other wrestler locked his hands too many times. We always attend the WWC open/novice tournaments at the beginning of the season. I entered him as a novice again and he took 2nd, he ended up winning 25 matches last year wrestling in all open tounaments. Was I wrong? I was just trying to get him confidence. Now, this year he looks like he should be wrestling novice again. My youngest son wrestled his first tournament this weekend went 2-2 and took 3rd in an open tournament. He wrestled two kids with the same skill level and he was buzzsawed by the other two. So, is he a novice wrestler or should he stay in open tournaments???? If I'm able to get back east or to wichita we'll probably wrestle novice. Am I wrong?? It's about skill level, confidence, and keeping them in the sport of wrestling. Parents and coaches should have enough common sense to know when and what type of tournaments to place their wrestlers in.

Wouldn't it be great if those young kids could demonstrate their skill level in a non-contact scenario ... kind of like they do in martial arts?

The answer to the problem has finally been suggested!