Any big upsets in Subs? Any 8th graders look like contenders this year? Other than Bryce Hood were there any other 8th graders that won state last year?

Above 100 I believe Bryce was one of five kids who placed in 14U who were not cadet aged wrestlers. It is tough for the eighth graders to compete with those who have had one year of varsity experience. They practice five days a week, they wrestle two minute periods and they wrestle kids who could be three years older than them.

I don't know how many are cadet aged, but there were a lot more than five 8th graders that placed last year. It is a disadvantage as an 8th grader though.

8th graders practice 5 days a week too in middle school. I don't care for that arguement. Its an excuse at best.

I agree with the tiger on that one.

But that is only if they have a middle school program....not all schools do. If not...they get the standard 2-3 times a week 2 hours each.

There is no comparison the preparation a freshman gets going through a complete HS season and competing daily against kids that can be 4 years older VS. an 8th grader that might have a Jr. high season that is a glorified version of romper room for 5 weeks, even the most seasoned 8th graders that practice several times a week and travel all over can not usually keep up in this transition year.

Missouri has it right, they tell the HS kids to start their FS/GR season and get better at what will get them more recogintion and help them at the next level. Folkstyle season is too long anyway.

24/7

Couldn't agree more about the folk style season being too long. My son started his middle school season the middle of October and will finish with kids the middle of April at the middle school duals. 6 months is a long season and I'm concerned that he might be getting burned out at the wrong time of the year. He told me the other day that he was considering joining a track club this summer instead of wreastling Free style/Greco....

Man, the truth is refreshing.

We'll let you take that one back. I'm still laughing about the glorified romper room comment.

Every year a few people decide to defend mixing high school wrestlers with kids. Too me it just shows our state's overall lack of a true understanding of development in our sport. Middle school wrestling, for the most part, is on par with novice. MOST of the coaches have little or no experience and the good kids pick up bad habits wrestling kids who are not experienced. It is like saying that JV is the same as varsity and Novice is the same as Open. There will be exceptions as some eighth graders have chosen a different preparation path than most so they will compete and possibly defeat some of the experienced high school wrestlers but for the most part it is like putting puppies with the big dogs. Missouri and Oklahoma both have it right maybe the majority will see the injustice and correct it someday. I must say I am not holding my breath though

They are practicing against other 8th graders at best. The bigger kids are probably going mostly against a coach who has to give them a half speed effort. In 8th grade my son was mostly practicing twice a week against coaches like that. As a 9th grader he was able to practice and compete in meets full speed five or six days a week against state qualifiers and placers like the Markey brothers, RJ Nill, Jed Mamie, EJ Walter, Mike Hammer and Alex Lopez. There is no comparison in the practice and competition level. A few of the national type 8th graders are able to overcome the disadvantage but the majority are unable to. But the next year as freshmen they will start closing the gap with the sophomores once they get into the varsity practice rooms and meets. I agree with those that advocate having a tournament in which 8th graders do not compete against the 9th graders in the State tournament series.

Thats not going to happen Vince and you know that.

As far as the topic is concerned. Why should USAWKS cater to the small minority of clubs who don't have a middle school program? Thats both silly and dumb.

Mr. Cokely did you ever consider that maybe there are a large group of kids who don't like freestyle/greco wrestling? And that maybe those extra 4 weeks at the end of the high school season is something they look forward to ever year? I myself was a kids state champion and I didn't particularly care for freestyle wrestling. The ONLY reason I did it during the summer was to keep in shape. I rarely went to freestyle tournaments and it wasn't because I wasn't good at it.

I think the arguing about this needs to stop. Its not going to change. And the reason is because those opposed are VERY small in number and will stay that way because their opinion is silly and unjustified. It seems to me the only people whining about this are the ones that either had no success at that age or aren't having any now.

What does Middle School have to do with my argument? NOTHING!! What does FS/GR have to do with not having high school kids compete against 8th graders? NOTHING!! I never said that we shouldn't let the high school kids compete just let them compete against each other. If you are in high school you wrestle 16 and under. Simple as that! I never inquired about your abilities in any style of wrestling. You are creating an argument that has nothing to do with my comments. If you think the argueing needs to stop then quit posting. How do you know how many are opposed or in favor or not mixing high school kids with middle school kids? How do you know what success I had or my kids are having now? My opinion is neither silly or unjustified.

Actually I do not know that. How can anyone say it will never change? Never is a long time. I agree with Will that someday Kansas will change this tournament series to be more consistent with the majority of states. I believe this topic has come up about every year. In previous years it has been stated that the majority of states do not include their high school wrestlers in their kids state wrestling tournament series. Several years ago the KWCA approached our Kids executive board with the idea that they would like to see the kids season end before high school state so the kids, kids coaches and families could all go to high school state and so that the high school wrestlers could take a couple of weeks off from their folkstyle season and then participate in freestyle/greco wrestling.

My son started wrestling in the Kansas USAW Kids program about ten years ago as a first grader and I started hearing about this competitive disadvantage that 8th graders had against 9th graders right from the first year from Kids coaches and other experienced adults from the wrestling community. In my opinion it will continued to be discussed because most people recognize that there is an unfair competitive advantage for 9th graders.

I do not think it is doing the 9th graders that much good either. I know last year when this topic came up I asked my son who was a 9th grader a year ago would he rather be wrestling against the top sophomores in a post season tournament or the top 8th graders. He said he would rather be wrestling against the top sophomores for sure. He said high school kids should be wrestling against high school kids and grade school kids should be wrestling against other grade school kids. He wrestled one kids tournament after his high school season and then chose on his own not to wrestle the kids State tournament series as a 9th grader. He has chosen again as a sophomore not to participate in the kids state tournament series. He has been given the right to make this type of decision for himself ever since he started high school.

I don't agree with Coach Tattoo's assessment of Will Cokeley's motives on this topic either. I don't see anything about Will's posts that is trying to not let the kids wrestle or is for his own selfish motives. I don't always agree with Will's positions but I believe his motives are to improve wrestling in Kansas for all the kids. I believe Will has expressed his position on this topic in previous years. I don't see anything about his position on this topic that indicates he is trying to live his life thru his kids. I believe he is very involved with his kids like most of us in the wrestling community are. In general it is a good thing in our society when parents are involved in their kids lives. I applaud him and other parents who are very involved with their kids. From what I know of Will Cokeley though I believe his interest in wrestling extends beyond his own kids.

I believe Will Cokeley is a wrestling person who is thinking outside the box to try to improve Kansas wrestling. He is willing to stick his neck out to express his outside the box thinking. I think wrestling needs people willing to think outside the box and express those opinions. Let's face it is the general sporting public more interested in our NCAA college wrestling finals this weekend or in the basketball rounds of 64 and 32 this weekend? I hear people in the community talking about the basketball tournament frequently. I never hear anyone outside the wrestling community discussing the NCAA wrestling tournament. All I am trying to say here is that maybe some outside the box thinking is good for wrestling and maybe we should be encouraging it instead of attributing selfish motives to it.

I have to call you on this Vince. Has anyone produced some facts and figures that say the "majority" of states do this? They may or they may not, but to date I have not seen anything documenting such a statement by you.


You left out the reason the STATE BODY deemed the KWCA proposal unfeasible. Which I might add, you've been told over and over on these boards.


Thanks for bringing that word and the discussion onto our boards which should be a sanctuary from it. I wonder why so many people are talking about it?

Sport0,

Why don't you produce some figures that prove that Vince's statement is incorrect? Again, you needle, you antagonize but you don't really take a position. At least you are consistent.

I am not the one who stated something as fact! Vince and I have been round and round on this issue on these boards previously and for him to come in and make a statement like he did about the KWCA proposal, is not being honest.


You might need to show me where I "needle"d or "antagonize"d him in that post. I "don't take a position"? You seem to follow my every post, are you a stalker?

Will,

For your information and anyone else reading this topic who might not know this, I will no longer respond directly to sportsfan02 on this forum. That is the reason I am not directly responding to sportfan02's reply to my post yesterday on this topic. Last year on 2/14/06 I introduced a topic on the high school forum "Could a Grand State tournament work this way?". I proposed in the topic introduction that USAW-KS run a Grand State tournament within two weeks of high school state. I proposed three divisions in the topic. The topic did not last long and did not generate any serious discussion. I eventually deleted my topic introduction which at that time deleted the entire topic on our forum. The reason I deleted it was because the initial response was from sportsfan02 that did not directly address the topic but was intended to antagonize as you have characterized his style. Here was sportsfan02's response to my topic introduction:

"Vince I can tell it's getting close to that time for your wife to give you the drink she calls "sleepy juice" and you take a long off-season nap."

We had a couple of more exchanges in the topic and finally I had enough of sportfan02's antagonistic games and posted this:

"This is my last response to this poster who only will identify themselves by the handle sportsfan02. I am not going to respond to someone who chooses to belittle and make fun of another person by dragging his opponent's spouse into the fray and then will not own up to it by revealing their true name. Sorry you are just not worth my time."

I have not responded to sportsfano2 directly since then and I intend to continue that policy.

You might remember Vince that the previous year I had posted something simular to what you quoted. Both posts were in jest and the previous year it was taken as the humor in which it was intended. For some reason, you took the above quote as some mean shot at you. I like you Vince, I truely do! I get aggravated with you at times because you will argue a point into the ground and when presented with facts, like those concerning the KWCA proposal, you simply ignore them. The newbies to this board may not know the history of some of these subjects but I expect more from you. You can continue to ignore my posts if you want but I appreciate your contributions to this board. Every message board needs a resident Trekki or Cpl. Agarn.
P.S. Thanks for not responding to me directly.