i said earlier on this thread that zlatnik gased against madison. he did. but as a regular reader on here i cant say i've ever read anything bad about duane zlatnik as a wrestler or kid.

Springys are used to it from the CJonline boards.

Renegade and Railer,

You missed my point, duels are fun--us and them. Not duel tournaments, not multi-day multi-team mega meets, not us and them and them and them and them. In one and one half hours it is over including J.V. and your fan has had a great time.

Wrestling is an increditable spectator sport. Let us let the spectator back into it.

Gary Ulmer

Gary,

I like a good dual too. I actually really like the tournament duals. The EKL dual tournament is one of my favorites. I also agree with you that this Metro Classic tournament is great for the spectators. Part of that attraction is it is an All-Star tournament with the border war aspect attached to it.

During the regular high school wrestling season, I have noticed though that a lot of teams just are not able to field a full dual team. It is not too impressive to fans when you get four or five guys from one team just going out to the mat to have their hands raised. That is actually kind of boring for them.

The other thing isn't there some type of restriction in Kansas as to how many matches that a Kansas high school wrestler can wrestle during the season? It is my understanding that is part of the reason why teams have gone more to tournaments than duals in their schedules. I think it has something to do with the fact that there is some point system and that tournaments do not count for that many more points than a regular dual. I am not positive of that but maybe someone could clarify that. I have heard that Missouri is not as restrictive and I think their wrestlers generally end up with more matches and their schools do seem to have more duals during the year.

No!

The trend is to attend Dual Team Tournaments to increase the number of individual matches. If STA attends a two day dual team tournament each wrestler has the opportunity to wrestle five (5) matches per day.

KSHSAA rule regarding point system is as follows:

"No student representing a member high school shall participate in more than 18 events and no more than 30 competitions points during a season, exclusive of the state championship series.

Dual 1 point
Double Dual 2 points
Quad (Triple Dual) 3 points
One-day Tournament 3 points
Two-day Tournament 4 points

In Missouri:

"An individual wrestler shall represent his/her school in no more than a maximum of 50 matches, whether they are scoring or not, prior to the district tournament as per MSHSAA By-Law 381."

In Kansas:

The KSHSAA has no restriction on the number of individual matches a wrestler may participate in during the season.

In Missouri:

"An individual wrestler shall represent his/her school in no more than a maximum of 50 matches, whether they are scoring or not, prior to the district tournament as per MSHSAA By-Law 381."

In Kansas:

The KSHSAA has no restriction on the number of individual matches a wrestler may participate in during the season. [/quote]

NOT Cracking on you in any way, shape or form Richard...but,

I'd like to see how a Kansas kid could wrestle up to the 50 match limit of our neighbor, using the point system as KSHSAA uses.

I'm not on the side of counting points/matches, but I am curious as to when KSHSAA implimented this, as I don't recall this being spoken about in the 80's when my brothers and I wrestled.

Shane,
Not that I am taking Richard's side by no means. But by Kansas regulations a wrestler could wrestle in 6 two day dual tournaments with 12 teams and could have the chance to wrestle 60 matches in those weekends as well as 6 more duals. This could get them a total of 66 matches. But none of this would ever happened just thought I would throw that thought in.

I'm not saying anything about Richard, MAKE THAT CLEAR!!!

I was just taking the good info he provided and was wondering what a Kansas kid "could possibly do" and still meet the 30 point rule. I just always hear about how kids from OK, CO, MO, etc have larger number of matches than what KS kids get. SO I thought I'd just ask and see what the possibility sould be.

One that note, what is the largest/ave amount that our kids get?

KSHSAA State Tournament data provides the following:

The information is from randomly selected teams.

Class 6A
Blue Valley North High School
Weight Name Year Record
103 Nick Colbert 10 20- 26 - 46 Matches
112 Zach Tanenbaum 9 36- 5 - 41 Matches
125 Nathan McCormick 12 43- 1 - 44 Matches
130 Jake Tanenbaum 12 41- 2 - 43 Matches
135 Tony Livengood 12 30- 4 - 34 Matches

Manhattan High School
Weight Name Year Record
103 Jeff Vesta 11 37- 1 - 38 Matches
112 Dane Norris 9 25- 14 - 39 Matches
119 Kevin Frazier 12 26- 20 - 46 Matches
125 Lucas Wagner 11 29- 20 - 49 Matches
130 Mitch Henderson 12 32- 13 - 45 Matches
135 Jacob Wagner 12 30- 5 - 35 Matches
140 Tucker Adams 12 35- 14 - 49 Matches
145 Steve Miller 12 32- 3 - 35 Matches
152 Jed Sicard 12 28- 13 - 41 Matches
171 Tyler West 11 27- 12 - 39 Matches
215 Eric Rowlands 12 22- 17 - 39 Matches

Class 5A
Emporia High School
Weight Name Year Record
112 Jared Dakin 11 27- 12 - 39 Matches
119 Justin Rose 11 33- 6 - 39 Matches
125 Sal Tovar 11 35- 8 - 43 Matches
135 Tavo Dikin 11 27- 14 - 41 Matches
140 Zeb Peak 11 25- 15 - 40 Matches
152 Logan Gaskill 10 23- 14 - 37 Matches
189 Mark Kolmer 10 19- 3 - 22 Matches
215 Ryan Bass 12 17- 20 - 37 Matches
285 Josh Rodriguez 12 23- 9 - 32 Matches

Gardner-Edgerton
Weight Name Year Record
103 Scott Parks 12 29- 12 - 41 Matches
112 Tyler Stokes 11 28- 2 - 30 Matches
119 Zach Litvak 9 14- 13 - 27 Matches
125 Kyle Hess 12 30- 11 - 41 Matches
130 Micah Flora-Swick 10 25- 14 - 39 Matches
135 Jacob Ingram 10 20- 12 - 32 Matches
140 Aldon Isenberg 12 31- 1 - 32 Matches
145 Todd Curtis 10 39- 4 - 43 Matches
152 Jake Akin 10 24- 15 - 39 Matches
160 Greg Curtis 11 37- 6 - 43 Matches
189 Kyle Pacheco 9 17- 17 - 34 Matches
215 Jeff Baca 12 22- 17 - 39 Matches
285 Pat Thomas 11 12- 13 - 25 Matches

Class 4A
Anderson County
Weight Name Year Record
135 Izaak Winter 12 40- 5 - 45 Matches
140 Brandon Hopkins 12 40- 8 - 48 Matches

Baldwin High School
Weight Name Year Record
112 Alan Callahan 11 43- 4 - 47 Matches
119 Nick Rockhold 12 31- 11 - 42 Matches
130 Kevin Callahan 12 38- 6 - 44 Matches
171 Gabe Mason 12 39- 12 - 51 Matches
215 Michael Barnes 12 25- 21 - 46 Matches
285 Jake Enick 12 25- 24 - 49 Matches

Eudora High School
Weight Name Year Record
140 Travis Clarke 12 35- 13 - 48 Matches
160 Jake Love 12 30- 14 - 44 Matches
171 Chase Rust 12 23- 19 - 42 Matches
189 Evan Meyers 12 32- 12 - 44 Matches

Vince,

I like duel tournaments as well, and I think the ideas I have read here for prospective meets have great merit. I would suggest, however, that our meets have gotten somewhat long for maintaining the attention of the normal fan. Duel tournaments can be as lengthy as ordinary bracketed tournaments. Vince, I would also suggest that you and I are not normal fans.

In Kansas where we use a point system. Coaches use the system to get as many matches as possible for their wrestlers and multi duel tournaments give that opportunity, but those meets take time for fans to attend, time that some do not have or simply wish not to give. Yet some high school schedules have nothing but multi-team events on their calendar.

Coaches and athletic directors can use regular duels to spice up their season. They are a great way to highlite a rivalry or create one. They only last a short time and fans love them. I also suspect so do the wrestlers. Most coaches won't go to duels on their schedule exclusively, they still want wrestlers to get important mat time but fans who attend meets need consideration as well.

You did bring up another thought. A reason for coaches not using duels in their season is that they cannot fill weight classes, maybe we have to many weight classes. Weight classes are determined by National Federation of State High School Associations, so are not a function the KSHSAA. But the number of weight classes have changed throughout the years, eleven when I first started coaching, then twelve, and now fourteen. They have been and can be changed as different circumstances arrive.

Gary Ulmer

To Richard, Shane, excardinal, Gary and anyone else I forgot,

I appreciate all that good information and input since my last post on this topic earlier today to the questions I brought up.

Gary:

I do like watching a good dual. My family has been watching a lot of them on the Big Ten Sports Network the last few weeks and a couple of other channels. It is fun to watch a good close one. The atmosphere of the Kansas City Senior Metro Classic is exciting. It is wonderful to see so many of the wrestling community at one event.

Gary, I must admit that I do hesitate to invite friends and family members in town to my son's wrestling tournaments because I know they would not have the patience to wait during the long breaks between his matches. I used to be that way but I have grown an appreciation for wrestling and I love watching all the matches. I certainly appreciate watching a wrestling tournament now a lot more than I did in the early years of my son's wrestling. We just watched the Big Ten tournament finals this afternoon. Before my son started wrestling eleven years ago, I used to watch a lot of college basketball in the winter. Now I rarely watch a college basketball game. I can't get enough of college wrestling on TV.