It's been very quiet this year. Any proposed changes post 'em here...

High School coaches please post your responses on the Coach's forum.

One note...KSHSAA is unlikely to even SEE proposals that would require a NFHS Rule Change (6 matches, college OB, etc.), let alone vote on them. Please keep your ideas confined to Kansas specifics (Dual State, travel restrictions, etc.)

I wish you could ban parents that expect their son to wrestle varsity because he's a senior as opposed to winning the spot!

Anyone else have the parents from hell this year?

Don't get us started!

dual state, travel, grand state- those are the top three on my wish list.

Explain why we can break away from NFHS rules for weight control but we can't institute our own 6 match limit. It makes SO much sense to be able to run a 16 team tournament in one day. It would save money allowing 4A regionals to be one day events. If we can't have a 6th match at least institute HEADUP's thumb war as a tie breaker!

Dual state won't happen unless you give up team state recognition at individual state. (This is how WI accomplished it)

Allow coaches to have contact with wrestlers beginning immediately after season but do not allow mandatory practices then.

8 additional competition points to be used exclusively for weekday (M-Th) dual events. This would bring back the weeknight dual!

Allow wrestlers to compete in independent outside events during periods when KSHSAA prohibits schools from competing. (This is a stupid infringement on freedom to choose.)

Travel (allow one trip beyond the 500 mile limit or give a limit on number of class days allowed to be missed and get rid of the STUPID mileage limit)

Abolish the video recording rule


Allow attendance of clinics and club practices during the season.

Immediately institute official evaluators and a rating system. Mandate it!!!!!

Good idea on the offial evaluation, basketball & football have it... However, it maybe self contained inside individual leagues?

I want to make a few comments about some of the proposals. This is long and boring but bear with me.

First, let’s don’t forget funding. Everything costs. Public and personal finances are in a tight. People are scared. State funding of schools will probably be reduced, school district budgets have been cut and teacher and support staff have been or will be reduced in many districts. There is a real danger that districts will have to start cutting programs and activities: academic, athletic, band, forensics, etc. In addition, this is not a good time to ask parents to provide more: taxes, booster club support, increased athletic and activity fees, fund raisers, etc. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU PROPOSE!! You may get just the opposite!

Relax travel restrictions. Where do you want to go? If I understand the KSHSAA ruling, a school team can travel a max of 500 miles from the Kansas State border. A little work with a map, a ruler, and a calculator reveals the following (I understand the rule as 500 straight line miles from Point A—on the State border—to point B in another state):
KC, Ks to Chicago 399 miles
KC, Ks to Minneapolis 423 miles
White Cloud, KS (extreme NE) to Minneapolis 352 miles
Oketo, Ks to Fargo, ND 411 miles
South Haven, Ks (I-35) to Okla City 106 miles
South Haven, Ks (I-35) to Dallas /Fort Worth 437 miles
Elkhart, Ks (extreme SW) to Alberque NM 447 miles
Kanorado, Ks to Denver, CO 164 miles
KC, KS to Indianapolis, IN 487 miles
KC, Ks to Madison, WI 399 miles
NW of St Francis, Ks to Billings, MT 502 miles (may be less with a bigger map and better ruler).

Surely some one can find a quality tournament in these areas.

Again, costs! Who pays for these long excursions? What is a good estimate to send 10 to 12 wrestlers, two or three coaches, and a couple of managers to Minneapolis on a 5 day trip (travel Wednesday, rest and practice Thursday, wrestle Friday and Saturday, travel home on Sunday). Travel: using two district Vans: 2400 miles (2 up and back plus in and around miles) divided by 10 MPG= 240 gallon of gas at $2.60 per gallon=$625. Eight motel room for four nights=32 nights X $100 per room night = $3200. Eats (per Diem) for 14 people for five days (minimum $20 per day per person=14 X $20 X 5 days = $1400. So far we can probably estimate at least $5200—and will probably need more: entry fees, other fees, Gatorade, laundry, etc.
May have to send the school treasurer to keep the books. Additionally, mom and dad will have to fork over at least $100 to $200 per kid for snacks and drinks, tournament Ts, sweats, medals, etc.
For what? So Johnny can tell his grand kids about his big adventure!

Coach contact after season end. Personally cannot agree with this proposal. Kids need a break from their coaches—and coaches need a break from their kids. If anyone thinks a coach can not/will not require his wrestler to attend practice (mandatory or not), is whistling DIXIE! Subtle hints are all it will take and little Johnny will be practicing year round: “if you don’t practice, how do you expect to wrestle next season”. Believev it and see it!! I do not think this rule exists only in Kansas, but in lots of other states.

Outside competition during the season, and allow attendance/participation in club clinics during the high school season. Have to disagree with both of these proposals. During season, the business is HS wrestling—and nothing else. Kid’s need the XMAS break and they do not need club activities during down or open weeks. Besides wrestling, there is academics, some social life, family life, etc. Most HS wrestlers are practicing or wrestling six days a week—give’m a break. Outside wrestling can also lead to serious conflicts for the kid. HS Coach: “if you are doing club wrestling you don’t have your mind on HS wrestling”; Club Coach: “if you are doing HS wrestling you don’t have your mind on club wrestling”. Club wrestlers have eight plus months to participate in club sports!!

State Tournaments. I spent two to three hours today reading the Iowa State HS Activities Association Wrestling Manual, and the Individual and Dual State Tournament Manuals. Must say, did not know those farmers could think and write that well (I can say that because my wife is an Iowa farm girl). They covered everything down to the gnat’s ass!
Their Individual State Tournament is like our Kansas tournaments—with some structure differences due to more schools. They have only three Classes (3A with the 64 biggest schools, 2A with the next biggest 96 schools, and 1A with all others). Hope I am describing this correctly. 3A schools/wrestlers advance to State from 8 district 8 team one day tournaments. 2A and 1A Classes each have sixteen 8 team sectionals (one day tournaments). First and second place sectional bracket finishers advance to one of eight 8 team 1A and 2A District Tournaments. In all classes and weight brackets only the champ and runner up advance to the next tournament level. At State, each class has a 16 team field for a double elimination format. For some reason they use 3 1/2 days to wrestle the State Individual tournament. The classes rotate with only one class on the mats at each 3 to 4 hour session, except for the championship finals on Saturday night. 48 State Champs where Kansas has 64 Champs

State Dual Tournament. Not being in Iowa, this gets pretty confusing, Each of the 16 1A and 2A Sectionals on 6 Feb advances the two top teams to one of eight – four team Regionals (16 Sectionals X 2 team= 32 teams per class to regionals divide by 8 =4). 1A and 2A Dual Regionals are wrestled on Tuesday 9 Feb (3 days after the 6 Feb Sectionals). Only the 8 Regional Champ Teams advance to the State Dual Tournament. The 1A, 2A, and 3A Districts are wrestled on Feb 13. Note here that Class 1A and 2A sectional and regional team champs and wrestlers will wrestle three big tournaments in 8 day. 3A wrestlers begin State competition at Districts on 13 Feb. The 3 ½ day Individual State Tournament is wrestled 17 through 20 Feb. The 3A Sectional Champ Teams (8 Sectionals) advance to the 3A Dual Regional on 23 Feb—3 days after the State Individual Tournament. The State Dual Tournament with 8 -1A Schools, 8 - 2A schools, and 8 -3A schools is wrestled on 27 Feb. Of note here is a lot of wrestlers in all weight classes may have a 2 to 3 week break with no wrestling if they did not qualify for the Individual State Tournament.

Ok. So what does a Dual State tournament offer for Kansas? More bragging rights at more costs. Surely, dual state tournament advocates don’t want to scrap our individual State Tournaments in favor of a Dual Tournament.

Grand State. To me this is a better proposal. Still costly, but probably less than a Dual State, and certainly simpler. I Assume the 4 class champs in each weight bracket would advance to the Grand State to form a 4 man bracket---or to include the bracket runner ups to form an 8 man bracket. Either way, could be wrestled in a one day Grand Day Tournament. A Grand State mingles wrestlers from all classes of schools and produces a Grand Champion in each weight bracket.

I have no comments on the other proposals, except I think the no 6 match rule was established in consideration of the health and safety of the wrestlers---tiredness can lead to injuries.

Hope I did not bore you to death with details.

is it 500 miles from the border? or is it 500 miles from the school?

From the border!

Contrarian,

I don't want to get into a writing contest with you so I will keep it short.

The proposal is for one trip outside of 500 miles. If you don't or your school doesn't want to go on one stay home. If you or your school cannot afford or chooses to not try to afford a trip then stay home. I am just proposing the choice. We CANNOT reach the three HS tournaments that garner the most attention for a wrestler but our bands can travel as far as they want to march or play. How much sense does that make?? FREEDOM TO CHOOSE!

Some kids want their coach in their corner at Nationals. Some coaches would like to work with those who CHOOSE to wrestle outside of the HS season. The spring offers THE BEST National level Folkstyle tournaments (other than the Big Three during the season). In todays environment any wrestling coach that would mandate practices in violation of a rule would be committing professional suicide. First off the kids who don't want to wrestle will refuse to show up. Secondly, someone will turn them in. Again, the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE! Those who don't want to wrestle won't and those who do will. Those who want to coach will and those who don't won't. Contrarian, are you a control freak???

Outside of the season...Other states allow it. Heck you can do it here before season, if you skip practice for a couple of weeks. Is there something wrong with our wrestlers that they aren't capable of MAKING THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR THEM? An athlete or family shouldn't be FORCED to make a decision based on a rule. They should have the right to choose to go to a clinic, go to a tournament, practice with others or whatever during THEIR time. Again, the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. Did I already ask you if you are a control freak???

Six match limit...This has been discussed. The number of minutes on the mat don't exceed the number of minutes you can run on a soccer field or run up and down a basketball court. We allow our boys to crash their heads into each other for 48 minutes on a football field. In the summer wrestlers routinely wrestle more than 5 matches in one day and the rules allow the combat to be much more violent than in the winter. That 5 match limit is just BS. You are all about saving money on your other proposals so why don't you pencil out how much we would save by shaving a day off of 8 regional tournaments??

I think you just don't like change. Without change, there can be no improvement. The more rules there are the less freedom you have.

My biggest wish would be to have all of the state tournaments in the same building!!

A general statement. Coaches are more competitive than all but a few of their athletes. They would not be coaches if they were not! The no coach/athlete contact out of season has a purpose--or many states would not have adopted it. Many HS coaches, especially successful coaches and teams, want their their athletes to play only one, and only one sport. Specialization. Parents of players of a local year after year winning 6A basketball team have told me of their coaches demands: if you play another sport you can't play for me. Apparantly in Missouri coaches are not restricted by the no contact rule. My nephew was a baseball player. The HS coaches were also the American legion coaches. If a kid did not play on his HS team he could not play on his American Legion Team--and if he did not play on his American Legion team he could not play on his HS team. My son was very competitive in HS in two sports (8 varsity letter--their were kids with more letter, but not in only two sports). By the end of the season in each sport my son needed a break from each of his HS coaches---and the coaches all needed a break from my son and the other kids. You are being naive if you think coaches are not control freaks, and you are showing signs on naivity, and of a control freak, by the way you are wanting to control KS HS wrestling.

As far as the 500 mile travel restriction, why not do a survey and see how many of the HS that wrestle want to travel out of state more than the 500 miles. Have heard a lot of West Kansas complaints on how much and the long distances they have to travel for in state competition (have seen some team busses that are travel coaches). If you do the survey, don't query the coaches, survey the principals, athletic directors, and superintendents--the people who have manage the money.

I enjoy reading your comments. Thought out and well presented (except when you get on a soap box, i.e. "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", plus a few other darts you occassionally throw).

Not to be disparging but I sometimes think you are probably more competitive than your son--who is an excellent HS wrestler who will succeed at a much higher level in college.

About all State Tournaments in the same building. I really liked the combined 4, 5, and 6A Tournaments at in that big arena north of Wichita. Great atmosphere! Don't think western Kansas wrestling community will ever agree to one big, big tourney. Certainly did not care for the Iowa format where only one class on the mats in each session.

Where is the spell checker???

Enuff said!

"You are being naive if you think coaches are not control freaks, and you are showing signs on naivity, and of a control freak, by the way you are wanting to control KS HS wrestling."

"I enjoy reading your comments. Thought out and well presented (except when you get on a soap box, i.e. "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", plus a few other darts you occassionally throw)."

Uh oh!

Wow, I just can't keep this to myself any more. My senior wrestler was in the orchestra his freshman year and they took a trip to enjoy the Boston Pops in April a couple of weeks after Spring Break. They were gone for two days of school. No one flunked out of school.

I haven't understood this 500 mile rule.....ever. If your team can afford it and wants to go.........go. If you don't want to take advantage of the opportunity, travel to Newton to a great tournament. What is the big deal? I heard this same crap in Oklahoma back when the OSHSAA forbid football players from traveling to post season All Star games. The first lawsuit that resulted from some kid being denied a scholarship because he didn't participate ended that one right smartly.

The five match rule is also silly. First, it happens to what, two wrestlers in a Tourney? And the two times I have seen it happen this year, the wrestlers involved each had matches among their five that lasted less than two minutes.

Now for the "coaches are more competitive so there should be a time off" discussion. I see both points of view and I am leaning to the more the better thing. I don't/didn't play either softball or flag football because I am so competitive. You will be hard pressed to find someone more so. Both my sons have participated in sports all their lives and I have watched them and coached them both. While the coaches where you are may insist on specialization, none of the coaches at Shawnee Mission East do. In fact, most of our wrestling coaches don't specialize in wrestling. If any coach threatened any kid within my hearing of, "play only my sport or not at all," there would be a "discussion". There may well be some merit in the "need a break from each other," argument, but I am not sure I am persuaded.

I know that some of the rules discussed here are thought to level the playing field "make things FAIR", BUT:

why should it matter if some schools don't want to travel? while you are at it ask the "WESTERN KS" schools if they would oppose the 500 mile traveling rule for money or competition. it's all in how you word the question. the way you write it: we don't travel because people who live out west have to travel farther, more often. is that FAIR? true?

ask more like this: would you choose to abolish the 500 mile travel rule, NOT factoring in money? your answers would be different. schools can choose to have fund raisers for athletics too. i never understood why the cheerleaders went to camps etc. in the summer (with their coach), and had to raise money with car washes etc. to buy new uniforms. yet the sports teams never did. in band (yes i was in band too, my coach didn't punish us if we were "3 sport studs" or involved in other academics) we raised money for three 1/2 years to travel to D.C., in the summer/ with our instructor. why can't western ks athletics have fund raisers. is it not FAIR?

again i'm not sure this is even a west vs east issue. is it? maybe i'm wrong. wouldn't be the first time. lol.

i don't want to go to the ballet with my wife, but it's not a rule that NO ONE can. THAT SIMPLY WOULD NOT BE FAIR.


i know of a coach who coaches his high school baseball team (right here in KS) AND the legion team, it's within the rules simply because, he has children on the team. then after summer baseball at least two stars from two different high schools transferred to play for him. they have only lost 1 state baseball title in the last 10 years. is that FAIR?

i know of a coach who coached his son at nationals, so did the wrestlers uncle. coach him "out of season" and all summer long. it's within the rules, but is it FAIR?

i certainly know of coaches who "demote" kids if they are involved in any sport, but their own. coaches also choose varsity/junior varsity spots on their own. whether you have "out of season" contact or not, it won't always be FAIR.

i believe that in this day in age when the economy is tough, and college tuition is on the rise, that it is UNFAIR to limit high school student/athletes in ways that could jeopardize a scholarship opportunity. it doesn't matter how strict you make the rules there will always be a coach who chooses to break the rules. that will NEVER change.

my last comments on this would be: police the criminals, not society. loosen the grip, change some rules, prosecute the violators. make the decisions based less on POLITICS and more about STUDENT/ ATHLETES.

I would love to have the opportunity to begin freestyle and greco practices with some of my athletes who CHOSE to make themselves better in the offseason. Will, you make a great point about allowing our athletes to chose. If they don't want to be there, I don't want them there.

Lets face it, kids want what is convienent. If it's not convienent for them to drive 30+ minutes to a freestyle/greco/kids practice, they probably won't do it, or can't do it. There is absoloutly nothing wrong with allowing additional training opportunities for the willing.

I would also like to see freestyle/greco regional training centers set up around the state. This gets our athletes training together, and everyone on the same page. Of course, not everyone would be able to attend, but it would make a huge impact when everyone does get together for Southern Plains, Fargo, etc. I know there are many coaches who are qualified and willing to put in the time to make this happen.

I agree w/Jobe 100%. I'm from Oklahoma and we would start FS/GR practice about a week after our HS season was over. Our own coaches were allowed to coach us. My HS team (Shawnee Hts) is starting to buy into wrestling in the offseason, but it's hard to find someone qualified to coach them during the Spring. They will not travel to other schools to train, but will train at our own school(b/c it is convenient). I would love to be able to coach my own wrestlers in the spring for FS/GR.

I tell my guys that you can still play baseball or run track and make practice 2 x's/week for some extra mat time. We share our athletes at Shawnee Hts, and I encourage this. But, if a kid is willing to dedicate himself to wrestling in the off season, why can't he get his own coach to help him?

it's just not FAIR to punish the masses, for the chance, that there might be a violator. agree or disagree it IS bad policy.

we are trying to level the playing field within our borders, but are severly limiting our kids opportunities, as compared to other states.

i wonder how many scholarships kansas kids forfeit each year to kids from states, that allow more CHOICES for the student/ athlete.

look at the rosters of the D1 AND D2 teams in KS, they are filled with student/athlets from surrounding states, who have fewer restrictions. if all men are created equal, then shame on US to hold OUR kids back, and deprive them of a CHOICE.

I have only been in the state of KS for a little over 10 years now and since my son is only a soph, I can honestly say that I do not know enough about the rules/regulations. So, I don't need to propose rule changes, but I would like to touch on what contrarian brought up. I am from South Jersey where there is a large passion for this sport. One thing they are still big on back there are duals. I understand more tournaments means more mat time, but what duals brings to the sport is undeniable. More fans, team rivalries and I think more team unity. We had 4 duals this year and even though we didn't take them all, they were EXCITING! Our dual w/ Shawnee Hts was edge of the seat and the fans were LOUD! With that I would like to see State Duals within the classes. Alot of states do it and they generate large crowds. More than anything, I would like to see one state tournament. I know I will hear many disagreements, but just hear me out. unless things have changed in NJ, they start out w/ a district tournament...there are (at least) 32 districts in NJ and they all have a minimum of 16 teams. The top 3 move on to Regionals....there are 8 Regions w/ a full 16 man bracket. Top 3 move on to State. they incorporate ALL classes. And trust me, 1 of, if not the best, high school wrestling team the last 40 years in NJ is Paulsboro HS-a small school sporting 450-550 kids 9-12. heck, they went 38, 39 years w/out losing a conference dual! That is 9 duals a season almost 40 years w/out losing! They were so good that school district would buy a steak dinner after the season for whomever beat a Paulsboro kid. I went 2-1-1 my 4 years vs. them. For the tie they told me they would buy me a milkshake!!LOL! Anyhow, to me...that determines 1 true state champion. Please, feel free to unload on me.

no unloading from here, let's do it. our high school has only 1 home meet, this year. can't really build a club/team that way. yet four nights a week you can go watch some form of inter- scholastic football. let US promote the sport.

Headup:

". . .why can't western ks athletics have fund raisers. is it not FAIR?"

Not sure what Western Kansas has to do with your concern regarding travel; the rule is 500 miles FROM THE BORDER not from your school/community. Norton could travel across the state and then go an additional 500 miles east of the Kansas-Missouri Border and still be within the rule.

We are NOT fearful of traveling; for crying out loud we travel all the time; travel "out here" is a way of life!

I do not know where you live, but we probably travel more miles for regular competition in a normal week of our season than you do in your entire season.