And sadly, every election it is proven that more and more people want someone else to take care of them and their children. I agree. It is up to us to try to "train" them, leading by example, that it is much more satisfying to achieve because of hard work, than it is to be the average joe, doing just enough to get by..........10 years ago,, my statement would be that ALOT of people take the easy road. Sadly, today, my statement is MOST people take the easy road. Again, this is wrestling, the toughest sport there is. So we are not dealing with as many, as a percentage of total parents, that are looking for the easy way.

I bet most coaches, when asked if they would like for their kids to get better, and put in more work, would say "hell yes".

And for the record, I don't have a dog in this hunt. We don't have middle school wrestling at Andale. If there was an opportunity to get it, I would jump on board in a heartbeat, while trying to give my input as to who it will help, who it will not help, and the season schedule. It would probably cause me to make some calls to KSHSAA or whoever needs to hear from us to change the rules to allow the FREEDOM to choose how much practice our kids can put in.

For now, I'll just make my argument from the standpoint that, like I said above, we should have the FREEDOM to be as good or as lazy as we choose to be.....

The exemption given to swimming is an absolute joke, drawn up by our legislation from purely nepostistic views and nothing more. Cleary we need more wrestlers in our legislation so when I run for office I will expect your vote.

This naturally leads me to my next comment.

I can agree with several things you said, except for one - I don't ever BS!

Here is something I got online of the vision of KSHSAA. They do literally want to level the playing field:
The philosophy at the top

Conversations with Musselman, as with any of his predecessors, shed light on the philosophy of the man guiding the Association.

In Musselman’s case, one hears a man who believes in strong athletic/activity programs that know their place in the overall education of teenage students. You also meet a man with sensitivity to their needs.

“I’m working in a state that values education and the appropriate role of activities in a proper framework that doesn’t cause the tail to wag the dog,” he explained.

“Not all kids in Kansas are similarly situated,” he added. “We have kids who have great parental support and the economic ability to do all kind of wonderful opportunities. And that’s great. But the key is to find the balance that allows them to do that at the same time you don’t disadvantage those who don’t.

“It’s the classic have/have not case. It’s part of why schools form an association: to try and level the playing field.

“Kids in adolescent years fear one thing over anything else, and that’s rejection,” Musselman added. “They don’t want to be cut from a team. To avoid that, some kids say, ‘I won’t even bother.’ They opt out because they know if they don’t play travel ball for 80 games all summer, they have no prayer, that coach already has his team decided.

“Believe me, I talk to people all over the country who’ve seen that opening Pandora’s Box isn’t the panacea everyone thought it would be.”

There has not been any movement on this topic, EVER! Heck, our ms "league" doesn't have weigh ins, doesn't have weight classes, doesn't keep score, and barely has any events. In fact, this season the middle school my son attends didn't have enough singlets so they ask him if he had a red one he could use. He did so he wore it. At the year end tournament, the Lansing coaches protested his singlet stating that it intimidated their wrestlers and was illegal because it wasn't school issued. OMG! Are you kidding me? I would have to say that East Kansas Club practices, even only three times a week, are WAY BETTER than ANY and EVERY MS practice room in this state, bar none. Instruction is better, practice partners are better, conditioning is better, etc. The only difference is that my tax dollars don't get wasted on East Kansas' efforts. Gret, you live in some socialistic fantasy land where average is good enough. I am glad you have probably labeled me an overzealous parent. I think my kids will be productive, tax paying citizens instead of those playing video games, collecting welfare, moving to Colorado, and smoking weed all day.

Again, no one is saying that you have to compete in Middle School and High School sports. If the inherent value of participating on a school team sport is not worth the sacrafice of giving up your elite club teams then more power to you.

In fact, the legislation would probably just prefer to get these non-academic activities off of their dime anyway. Don't be surprised when you all get your wish and we eliminate school sports all together, go to the "European model" which I am sure many of you seem to want. If there is no point to having a school team because we have clubs available, then why bother offering them at all. The more we discredit and devalue our scholastic teams, the easier it will be to eliminate them all together. Again, your participation on the school team may not help you, but it does help your school community.

I am surprised more of you don't realize this.

Will, I am going to have to disagree, now we don't have 80 to 100 kids or whatever the EKWC has that feeds who nows how many different High Schools. But I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that ARMS league wrestling was not a joke by any means. both those Garden City rooms were tough, we were decent, Dodge Comanche and DCMS both had several kids that will make noise in HS. both Liberals etc, not to mention we competed with the GWAC which includes Colby, Scott City, Goodland etc...pretty legit programs. whose MS kids you know are gonna be tough in HS in 2 to 4 years. also I can not speak for all these MS programs but I am (only slightly) offended and will tell you that our MS workouts are as "good" as anything you are gonna see at any level. Furthermore we saw several kids this season who did not start wrestling till 7th grade that were or are going to be tough tough. Yes the Greater Gold kids dominated and my kids with experience are tough etc., but there are a ton of kids out here that would not have ever wrestled if not for MS that are or are going to be really really good. So I do not know what the problem is in the rest of the state, but the Middle School situation out here is pretty dang good. And I would not have any other way.

Not having enough uniforms for participants is unacceptable. If you are not going to cut, then at least have sufficient equipment.

I believe that people on hear that complain the loudest about KSHSAA are the ones that give the LARGEST amount of time, money, etc. to their school's success.......It's called wanting to improve. Not wanting our kids, and yours, to be average. Settling is for losers. Wanting more is for winners....

Redstorm, exactly

I have not heard any one say they wanted to getrid of MS wrestling.
For that matter every one that is talking club is for EXTRA wrestling.

I coach softball and wrestling.At the end of every night EVERY coach I have every talked to or did any thing with will say. YOU NEED TO PUT IN EXTRA WORK AT HOME. The girls that do that inprove 2 times as fast as the ones that do not.Same gose for the wrestlers that duck walk around the house or do stand ups when watching tv.

Mahan
How many difrant rooms have you went to.I can tell you this my son has went to 12 difrant rooms.Out of that 12 five of them where good rooms.Maby it was just the day that he went.That is less than half.
The bigest difrance in MS and club.Is that if the kid dose not strive to get beter in club the coaches can do some thing.In MS the coaches are under the schools rules.So in turn some coaches in ms think they can not push the kids as much as a club coach.

I have only been "in" our room. But from what I have seen in competition, most of the ARMS and GWAC MS programs are doing things well. that was my point. Idk what is going on in the rest of the state, but Southwest Kansas right now is doing a good job with its Middle school programs If we could get the Hiplains league to go in the fall that would even be better. I agree though that if the kid does not want to get better then there is not much to do for or with him.
I do not want to get started on how bad and ridiculous KSHSAA rules are about coaching kids "out of season" KSHSAA hamstrings small school programs by not allowing a school coach to work with those MS kids during club season. Big schools probably have Big clubs to work with

A couple of quick questions for Greg, Greg & Bill.

Let’s say the rules were different and that middle school wrestlers were allowed to practice and compete outside their school’s schedule; would you be advocating on here that it should be changed and restrictions put in place disallowing them this opportunity?

After reading Troy Fowlers post, do you still believe Nate is not adversely affected by these restrictions?

Thanks for your answers!

There are always exceptions, and I am glad there are a few MS programs at that level. The facts are that thos few are the exception and not the rule.

I truly feel bad for our MS coaches. 3-4 weeks to fill what is right now 8-9 spots on the roster with 1st year wrestlers. How do you prepare them for that in 3 weeks. I think they are doing the best they can as coaches. In our case anywyas, there are always the "teacher coaches" just getting another check.

They have to cover so many fundamental items that the work outs or live time is cut short.

The Pioneer league may be MS at its worst, just due to timing and the mass amount of 1st timers.

Off the deep end?
Senator Schmidt, KSHSAA at odds over bill
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2006

By By Rick Peterson
The Capital-Journal

Kansas state senator Vicki Schmidt, who represents Topeka's 20th district, believes a high school swimmer who wants to improve by putting in a little extra training time should have the chance to do so.

Kansas High School Activities Association executive director Gary Musselman counters that his organization's rules against dual participation are in place because they're in the best interests of all student-athletes, not just a small number of elite athletes who would benefit from Senate Bill No. 317.

If passed, Senate Bill No. 317 would allow high school swimmers extra training time. State senator Vicki Schmidt says the bill will allow swimmers to maintain their endurance, but the KSHSAA is concerned it will open a "Pandora's box."

The bill already passed the Senate by a 33-7 margin, so it'll be up to the House Federal and State Affairs Committee and ultimately perhaps the entire Kansas House of Representatives to make a decision.

The crux of Bill 317, which Schmidt co-authored with state senators Mike Petersen, R-Wichita, and David Wysong, R-Mission Hills, is to allow high school swimmers to practice with their club teams during the high school season.

"Clearly, it is just for swimming and is not competition. It is just practices," Schmidt said. "If an athlete has met all of the practice requirements of their high school coach — and that would mean going to all the practices that are offered and not substituting a club practice for a high school practice — (the bill) says that they can go practice with their club team and not be penalized.

"I can think of a lot of other academic programs where we applaud individuals for getting extra help, so why do we want to punish the swimmers for doing it?"

Musselman said a major reason for the KSHSAA fighting the bill is a possible "Pandora's box" effect.

"If swimming is modified and exempted — given special treatment if you will, special status — it's already been very clear to us from contacts we've had and even from other legislators that other sports should be exempted similarly," Musselman said. "That changes the face and the dynamics of high school sports in our schools unalterably."

Bill 317 comes a year after House Bill 2345, which dealt with most of the sports the KSHSAA offers, failed to make it out of committee.

"The first bill, House Bill 2345, definitely was to relax or eliminate rules that were perceived to be restricting or limiting for select elite athletes, very capable kids who were also a part of club programs," Musselman said. "That was proposed for every sport that's under an Olympic governing body. Effectively, that would have left us with football and with golf.

"Obviously, after the hearings last March, that bill didn't go anywhere, but it also didn't go away, so it's not a dead issue yet, and may not be."

Schmidt, whose sons Jonathan and Tyler were multi-event state champions and are currently NCAA Division I swimmers, said Bill 317 would be a good testing ground in the area of dual participation, pointing out most states allow it.

"There are 38 states that have dual participation in some form in swimming, most of them with competition and practices. Seven totally ban it, and we're one of those, and five states don't offer swimming," she said.

"What I said on the Senate floor was, 'Why wouldn't we want to try this with a small group of individuals?' because if it doesn't work, then you've only affected a small amount of coaches, a small amount of athletes.' "

Schmidt said it would be up to the swimmers to decide if they even wanted extra training, apart from their high school program.

"Those students who just want to compete on a high school team that are not year-around swimmers and just want to go out for swimming, great, perfect," Schmidt said. "Their life doesn't change. And the schools that offer morning practice and afternoon practice, those student-athletes probably don't need any extra practice. Their requirements are being met."

Schmidt said one of the advantages of dual participation is athletes would be able to continue to train for the longer distances they face in non-high school competition.

"Why shouldn't a high school athlete be able to maintain their endurance training through their high school season?" she asked.

Another advantage Schmidt said is more elite swimmers would be likely to swim for their high school teams if they could continue to train with their clubs.

Schmidt's son, Jonathan, now a standout at Georgia, skipped two seasons of high school competition at Topeka High to train with his club team.

"To this day I know that on one hand he regrets not competing for his high school," Schmidt said. "On the other hand, I think he'd make that same choice if given the current practice situation today."

Musselman said the KSHSAA believes its members don't want a change.

"I think one important consideration is that not one school that's a member of this association has exercised their constitutional authority under our bylaws to propose changing these rules," Musselman said.

"That says to me that Kansas schools don't think this is necessarily a good idea in how they administer athletic programs in their schools, and that's middle school through senior high. If this is such a great idea and has so much merit why hasn't even one school proposed this formal change so we can run it through our governing system and see what our schools want to do with it?"

The bottom line, Musselman contends, is a rule change wouldn't be in the best interest of the vast majority of the state's student-athletes.

"Let's say there's 100 kids in Kansas who are truly at the Olympic elite level, which would be a huge number," Musselman said. "If there were 100 kids, is it merited, is it justifiable to change the rules that would impact literally four to five high school swimmers, and the potential ripple effect of every high school athletes — 100,000-plus kids involved in high school sports — to in some fashion give 100 kids an opportunity that they perceive that they don't have right now.

"That doesn't add up. That doesn't balance when you put that on the scale of balancing what's fair and what's in the greatest interest of the greatest number."

Basically she is saying that high school sports are for the kids that don't want to get any better. Her son could could have swam on his own all day long if the high school team wasn't working him hard enough. True for any sport, including wrestling. Might as well have just came out and said the swimming coach sucks, but my son still deserves to compete for his school even though the school had no basis for his success other than being in the right place at the right time.

Would never try to speak for Mr. Mann, but for me, if this were the rule across the board, there would be no need for school sponsored athletic teams. What is the purpose of our extra-curricular programs? (Notice the use of the word "curricular.")

Could someone explain to me how these restrictions are good for student athletes.
How is not allowing me to work with my 8th grade stud during his club season (or freestyle) good for him, or my program or the community, how is that good for anyone to restrict opportunities for athletes. Someone please explain to me how these restrictions benefit anyone.

I agree with Mr. DeWitt and also with a comment he made earlier. . . to do what it is being advocated by many on here will lead to the demise of school-sponsored sports along with the rise of European-style club sport; and, I add. . . the loss of quality sports instruction and supervision other than only for the rich elite

Here is Musselman's statement:
"Let's say there's 100 kids in Kansas who are truly at the Olympic elite level, which would be a huge number," Musselman said. "If there were 100 kids, is it merited, is it justifiable to change the rules that would impact literally four to five high school swimmers, and the potential ripple effect of every high school athletes — 100,000-plus kids involved in high school sports — to in some fashion give 100 kids an opportunity that they perceive that they don't have right now."

The idiot doesn't say how this negatively affects the 99,995 kids that choose not to put the extra work in and do both club and HS/MS events and/or practices. He just implies it, so that the koolaid drinkers will not know ,but just assume, that someone is getting screwed.......And who said anything about Olympic level kids??!!

"If it just helps one kid, it is worth it" is a standard slogan for these idiots when they are pushing for something that will help their political viewpoint. But now, their story is that it will hurt everyone else, which couldn't be farther fromthe truth. YOu never hear about the 99% of people that these new laws/regulations/taxes that are designed to help the 1%, when it is that 1% that is lining their pockets..... We are not asking for more rules, we are asking for less rules. What happens when a hardworking kid is in the room? It makes everyone else work harder....What happens when kids see a kid succeeding? They emulate what that kid does. So if a kid starts having success, maybe others will follow, and the world will soon learn the lesson of hard work = success.......

KSHSAA and these idiots that want to restrict the amount of time/effort/etc a kid can put into a sport are doing nothing but trying to hold some kids back, so they don't get too far ahead of the lazy ones. PERIOD.

In watching a dual on tv recently, I believe it was Beldam, but I can't remember for sure, the color analyst lamented the lack of D1 quality kids coming out of Oklahoma. His reasoning was somewhat related to what you just said. He said that due to a low wages for teachers/coaches in the state they were lacking quality coaches at the high school level. While the reasoning might be different the results would be the same if we take our kids out of the hands of our high school coaches.
I believe the primary reason we surpass all of our neighboring states is solely because of the quality of our high school coaching.