Richard,

Time Stands Still probably knows exactly what he is talking about. I too have had a St. Thomas Aquinas parent say nearly the same thing to me.

The rule states those that are directly or indirectly associated with the school. I don't know whether that gets too fuzzy for the activity association to act when parents acting independently are involved, but there are certainly are some ethical problems.

As a former coach I do not know how many of my best wrestlers were actually contacted, but I can name one and that was confirmed by his parents. He was not new to my program either, he was going to be a junior.

Whether these are provable offenses or just provable ethical problems, I am not sure. But they are an area of concern.

Gary Ulmer

I am not sure that it would be fair to hold a school accountable for one of its wrestler's parents suggesting to another school's parent that they should consider having their child transfer to their child's high school. I think you could if you could prove the high school coach or someone directly affiliated with the school was asking his wrestlers parents to do that for them.

I have been told that smokeycabin's interpretation of the Kansas statute that he sited may be wrong about a public school student being able to transfer to any school in the county. The person told me that after reading that post that it seemed to be saying you could go to any school within your own school district and if the school did not accept you than you had it had to pay the county. So if you live in the Shawnee Mission school district, you could go to say SM East, West, North etc, but not an Olathe or Blue Valley school district school. Perhaps someone could clarify that who knows for sure.

In the SMSD you can attend any school as long as that school is not full. I think the only closed HS is SME.

the bottem line in this post is do private schools have an advantage? and yes they do.if winfield and ark city were able to pick and chose there teams from a county full of wrestlers they would be unbeatable. and as far as fare for holding a school accountable for parants recruting athletes, if they did it would stop this crap of private schools recruting and we wouldnt see posts like this one.

number two, you said if Winfield and Ark City were able to pick and choose their teams from a county full of wrestlers they would be unbeatable. Aquinas did not pick and choose these transfers. They chose Aquinas.

When your saying to hold a school accountable for parents recruiting athletes I agree with that whether it was a public or private school involved in the recruiting. But that would depend on what the ruling board would determine to be recruiting. If any coach, school official, booster club, or other organization officially associated with a school encourages a parent to approach another wrestler's parent with promises of some financial or other type of beneficial award for the wrestler or his family then that in my opinion would be recruiting. But if say a parent from School 1 is talking to a parent from School 2 at a tournament and tells them they would love to see the wrestler from School 2 on School 1's team, then personally I don't think that is punishable recruiting violation. Even in this scenario if School 1 parent tells School 2 parent that there is financial aid available, I still would not see that as a punishable recruiting violation. It is a well known fact that financial aid can be applied for at most private schools for families that qualify.

I agree that it is advantage for private schools that they can draw from a wider metropolitan area than public schools. In spite of this you have dominant public school athletic programs like in our area the Olathe North football program and certainly the Shawnee Mission Northwest boys and girls cross country programs. Somehow these programs have been able to overcome this private school advantage over a very long period of time and they do not seem to be slowly down either.

Coach Ulmer:

What Time Stands Still stated was "I was told by a St. Thomas Aquinas wrestling parent that he does contact good wrestlers from public school programs about attending St. Thomas Aquinas."

If one parent is contacting multiple families or wrestlers from public schools, this is an easily provable incident, and quite likely an activity the KSHSAA would be interested in to, at the very least, inform St. Thomas Aquinas officials this behavior is unacceptable.

Further, Time states "The public school wrestling coaches in the Johnson county area will almost all tell you that most of their good wrestlers have been contacted by a representative of St. Thomas Aquinas".

I do not believe Time is in a position to speak for all public high school coaches in Johnson County. Time states the contact was made by a "representative of St. Thomas Aquinas", and again this type of activity, if true, is easily confirmed. If a complaint were lodged regarding a representative from St. Thomas Aquinas directly contacting athletes from other schools, KSHSAA absolutely would investigate, and based on the findings, would take action.

I can assure you this type of activity is prevalent at public schools as well and is not relegated to athletics alone. Public school parents and teachers also compete and encourage students who may be attending another district high schools feeder school to attend their high school for athletic and academic purposes. High Schools take great pride, and do not hesitate to advertise, the number of National Merit Scholars at their school.

Lastly, at this years Kapaun Tournament, a team from out of county participated and I recognized two of the athletes from the Catholic Parish I attend. I did ask the parents of these two athletes why the kids were not attending Kapaun. I mentioned nothing regarding athletics, however I believe it was my responsibility to advocate for Catholic education to Catholic parents whose children do not attend Catholic schools.

Well said Husker Fan!

"being catholic is not a criteria for those calls."

A former STA basketball standout from the mid-90s was Baptist. He was an outstanding guy, good student, involved in STUCO and numerous other activities and quite a roll model student. But, he also was a three-year starter on the basketball team. Always seemed a bit interesting.
About two percent of the STA enrollment isn't Catholic. It would be interesting to see how many of those individuals are athletes.

Also, from a recruiting standpoint, when I was playing football in eighth grade, some Rockhurst freshman/sophomore football coaches contacted my grade school football coach after a game and asked him to try to talk me into going to Rockhurst. My coach wouldn't do it, despite having coached numerous other youths who went on to be standouts at Rockhurst. Coach told me about this during my freshman year of high school, because he wanted me to make a decision for myself.
Anyway, that's just some food for thought.

Either way, with regards to the STA program, they have done an outstanding job building their youth program during the past decade and the high school program has reaped the benefits year after year. They've done an outstanding job building a championship-caliber program. I have no idea if they recruit or not, but the kids there are well coached and well educated.

I think there is a different set of standards at work with a private school. For example Shawnee Mission schools have a zero tolerance for drug and alcohol use. If a Shawnee Mission athlete violates the rule he is out period, across the board, no exceptions. The coach has no control, it is policy. I think that coaches at private schools may have more latitude to tailor rules to individuals. I know in the past a private school was very lienent with one of their best wrestlers when he was caught using alcohol. I would guess that the coach has the same control over other issues such as cutting weight, and academics etc. I know of wrestlers who perceive there to be an unfair advantage and though willing to compete during the regular season, resent it come time for Regional and State tournaments. I suppose that may be an issue contributing to Oklahoma's policy. I think that most parents do their best to provide their children with the greatest possible enviornment to succeed. Some parent's top priority may be academics, or ethics while anothers are sports, but in all of these scenarios private schools have alot to offer. What is best for the kids going to school and wrestling is what is important. Private schools operate independently from public schools, and as such are not financed or operated by local authority or government.I am sure most of their patrons see this as an advantage for their kids. Is it too unfair? Probably not, but I think all schools should maintain the highest possible standards, and compete under the same rules, especially when the kids are all rivals, striving for the same prize. I don't however blame the parents for doing what they feel is best for their kids.

The coach at a private school must follow the same KSHSAA rules and regulations regarding weight control and academic eligibility as do coaches at public schools.

I agree STA has a terrific kids club. I have been
around the sport for several years now and definately know and understand the components that
make up a quality kids club. My son has visited
this club several times and has been to a few of
STA's summer clinics. I am not surprised this program is doing well today. It is funny several
have mentioned being approached by STA parents etc about coming to STA. My son has been approached many times, by parents and even the coach. The comment is nothing more than "You are a good wrestler, you really should consider coming to Aquinas" Our standard response has always been, well we are not Catholic. "The Acquinas response everytime has been. "Well no one is perfect."
Always said with a smile. So is this really recruiting? The most valid point I have read in this forum is the point about pulling kids from the entire metro. That does make a huge difference. I noticed someone mentioned this issue in reference to Oklahoma, in that private schools are not able to compete in the state tournament. I used to live in Oklahoma. In fact
I had two nephews at Jenks, High School,(just south of Tulsa, OK) Jenks won the state football championship 6 years running. It was always interesting that they had very talented inter-city kids on their rosters. One in particular comes to mind is the running back Kejuan Jones, that is now
a running back for OU. Kejuan, was a transfer from North Tulsa. I never really understood how that worked. So maybe there is a little unfairness
in being able to pull from a metro area.

Mamabear10,

You are talking about a casual conversation that is innocent enough.

The concern comes with the calling of high school kids in and out of the season to attend STA. Again I had a STA parent, from the wrestling team, telling me of having called athletes from a given high school to encourage them to attend STA the following year.

These athletes had already wrestled for another high school, were established good wrestlers in that public high school, and were being contacted by a parent about attending a private school. Color it however you want I still have problems with the ethics behind it. This is a concern that transends beyond just pulling kids from the entire metro.

Time Stands Still

correct me if im wrong but isnt olathe norths 119 a transfer from another school. and i think he is a transfer from another olathe public middle school, as were the aquinas kids. Im sure he was in touch with members of the north staff. im sure there was a phone conversation. also all 3 transfers are of the catholic families.

With over 200,000 Catholics in the Archdiocese of Kansas City in Kansas� I would hope that STA could field a wrestling team. I�m sure every kid wants to go to a parochial school to wrestle. �Mom, Dad I want to go to STA when I grow up they have a great wrestling team�. Give me a break.

And you'd think Miege and B-Ward could too. Not the case. Guess some of the reasons stated above like the success of their kids club and the excellent coaching staff mean very little when it comes to STA. No, it's gotta be cheating. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Actually, there is a conference of private catholic high schools in the KC Metro. They divide up which sports programs will be successful and distribute the athletes accordingly.

Miege - Mens Basketball

Rockhurst - Football

Aquinas - Wrestling
Soccer
Track

Bishop Ward - Baseball

These sports they had too many kids so they split them up -
- Womens Volleyball and Womens Basketball were shared with Miege and Aquinas
- Mens Basketball was shared with Miege and Rockhurst


You guys busted them. It's the REAL reason Aquinas is ranked #1. Sure they haven't done anything at state, but just in case they DO win it all, you have a patented excuse.

:rolleyes:

Yeah. Quit whining.

Okay, I've read enough! This topic has gotten so out of hand. STA is in my opinion, is the best kids club in Kansas City. I've personally been part of this group for seven years now and you can not find a better group of coaches: Sean Mc Carthy, Joe Cisper and Mark Roos and all the numerous others. Sharon Henes, the best team manager around and the many awesome families that we have been so blessed to get to know whether Catholic or not( and it is a very diverse group). We've cheered each other on to individual victories and triumphed as a team with 12 & 14 under team wins. All along the way, there have been many high fives and lots of hugs from the coaches when the little ones lose. We are for the most part a well-mannered group of fans and take pride in that. I think that it is a compliment to the club that we attract the most experienced wrestlers, to even the first year novice ones to our club. Our practices are filled to the max and every fall we just can't believe that the wrestling room can hold them all, but it does and the boys keep learning. It is sad every spring when we graduate another group of wonderful boys out of the club, knowing that the only contact we may ever have with them again will be a listing in the sports section updating us of their progress at the various high schools that they now attend. And I'm sure the coaches would love to be able to watch all of them compete in those golden STA headgear, but the reality is, there's not enough pairs to go around. So I have no doubt that Joe, Sean and Mark, all derive some satisfaction in knowing that there is another whole generation of boys who will grow up loving the sport of wrestling because these men gave so much of themselves to build STA to what it is today. And yes, that is why Aquinas has developed into such a great program. And we are proud to be a part of the STA family and I'm sorry that you will never be able to understand.
By the way, you left out O'Hara High School in that secret society of KC Catholic schools, they've got the #1 Basketball recruit in the city and both O'Hara's Varsity Basketball & Soccer teams beat Rockhurst this year. So there's at least one more Catholic school out there to contend with and O'Hara does it with only 500 students!

The youth club is something you can't take away from STA, but that alone doesn't win a title for them. It's the transfers that make the difference. Without these three good kids transferring in this season, I don't believe STA has a shot at winning the team title. STA fans and irritated Catholics on this board, this criticism is deserved. If STA wins by a margin that's greater than what the tranfers score at state then the critics will be silenced. To the STA supporters on this board, one way to prove STA doesn't have an unfair advantage would be to sight another example in which a school benefited from such a strange coincidence of multiple kids (ranked wrestlers) transferring to one place in one year? Maybe this is more commonplace than some would think and there's a pattern. Has Manhattan, Goddard, Maize or Hutch benefitted from such a wellspring of good fortune? Maybe a school got a kid here or there, but folks three really good wrestlers in one season who have bearing on the outcome of the 6A state team title is worth this discussion and you should be able to take a little criticism my thin-skinned Catholic friends. A public school (who has a long history of recruiting wrestlers) benefited from a couple of recent transfers. The Moore twins left Rockhurst (a catholic school) to go to Oak Grove (public)last year in Missouri. But, an on the ball MSHAA investigated the situation and made them sit a full year. They appealed and lost. I'll sight one more example of a situation like STA's---Bishop Meige, a Catholic school, won state (a few times) when Aiken, Medena boys and others decided to drive a long way to join a private school with a wrestling club. It is an advantage over the rest of the field when students switch school for athletic reasons. I'm not saying STA cheated, but it would seem that these kids jumped horses mid-stream to help their wrestling careers and to be part of building a championship team. If STA wins state by a margin that's larger than the points these transfers score at state, then the critics can shut up and let's give STA its dues. If not it will continue to be a question.

So IF STA wins state. Do you think there should be an asterisk by their name? For the record, only one kids transferred from another High School. That student athlete was Milstead. The other two (Markey's) never attended another HS prior to Aquinas. Therefore, this influx of transfers everyone says is not true. Also, Milstead had to sit out a semester of varsity athletics. He did not begin competing until after the 1st semester was over.

My next question is, what would any other coach have done if they were in Parks' place? If the Manhatten or Hutch coach for example were to hear of any kid transferring with decent talent they would welcome them with open arms. I doubt any coach would say, "sorry, we don't to illegitamize our title run".

Will the addition of the Markey's and Milstead help Aquinas' chance at a state title? Absolutly. And so will the 112 pounder (Henes I believe) as a freshman. There is no difference.

No, the real gripe you guys have is the fact that a team other than Manhatten, Hutchison, Emporia, or Goddard is vying for the team title. So rather than accept it, you have to try and tear it down. I hate to tell you this, but from the make up of this team, they are going to be around for a while. You're gonna have to learn to accept it.

Markey's wrestled for Olathe North last season, Blitzkrieg. And you have to know that. Don't split hairs and try to rationalize it away. No problem accepting it, as long as you can handle a little criticism.