Why does every tournament start with 103 and end with 275? I've been a wrestling fan for over 40 years and every year I wonder why all tournaments are always run this way. In the last few years, Kansas has had some of the best 215 pounders of any state in the nation.(placings at last years nationals helps with my point)
Last night at Wichita, I observed approx. 50% of the crowd had left before 215 started. It is only my opinion, but I felt wrestling fans missed some amazing athletes. Every year after the state tournament, I ask myself the same question "why are all tournaments run 103-275.
At the Newton tournament, I stayed to watch the 215 match between Bedore and Hemmerling. I rank that match as one of the top 5 matches I've ever watched. That match had it all, two awsome competitors with great technique, power, balance and stamina. Congratulations to those two for winning the state championship in their respective classes. I will always wonder why the heavier weights go last in a tournament and 50% of the people never stay to watch them wrestle.

Also at Newton the heavyweight match between Sprigg and Mock was great. I can't figure out why people wouldnt want to watch that.

Just a few thoughts on this subject.

1. Sequential order, its only seems natural to start with the lightest weight. The only other way to do it is go from HWT to 103, which could be an idea but its not going to happen. If you watch wrestling you would know that you can't just start at some random weight becuase of the way the matches are assigned based on first availibility. They have in last couple of years started to allow teams in Duals to start at a random weight class and bounce arround but it can cuase confusion.

2. While there may be every so often a good match for the upperweights in my entire 12 years of wrestling I have only seen maybe 3 or 4 good heavyweight matches. No one really wants too see two big guys push each other around for two periods. The want to see leg takedowns and things like that. The only exception I can think of is Jeff Boyle from Norton who as a heavyweight would shoot like a 119 pounder.

So as you can see most people aren't as ecited about the upper weight.

Richard-Nigel, I think you're telling me the heavier weights, especially 275, are less exciting to watch. I agree!! So doesn't it make sense to wrestle them first and get it over with so we can get to the more exciting weights? Do you think the fans would stay if 103 was last? I'm just saying maybe we need to try something different so we can keep the fans for the entire tournament. Nigel, I've been around wrestling longer than you are old and I do have many more accomplishments in this sport than you do, so don't act like I'm a rookie. I'm just asking if there ever has been any thought of running a tournament in reverse order. Most sports, movies, plays, etc etc have a grand finale. Why not wrestling?

On the same topic:
I get rather annoyed when people leave any event before it is completed. At the Gardner regional I was sitting on the west end of the gym in the fourth row. I was trying to take pictures during the 160, 171, 189, 215 and 275 matces. The officials at Gardner wanted all picture taking during matches to be from the stands. I was fine with that, as I use a zoom lens anyway, but I still had a difficult time taking pictures because people kept getting up and leaving. Like you said, after whoever they were there to see was finished these people got up and left. I not only find that rude and disrespectful to the other wrestlers yet to compete, but also a hinderance to we fans who choose to watch the heavier weight classes. I understand some people are going to leave during the tournaments, go to the concession stand, restroom, etc., but when entire teams and their fan bases get up and walk right in front of those of us watching it is annoying. Just venting, thanks.

Let me see if I hear you correctly. I am hearing several of you say that there is no talent or skill if you are a heavyweight. I have been involved in the sport of wrestling for 8 years. Through that 8 eight years, my son has been in the upper weight division and I have waited to see him wrestle many hours long after the lower weights from our club or school have finished and even gone home. But what happened during those long hours was what I learned about the sport which I have come to LOVE. As a mat MAMA, I can honestly say there is skill in all weights and something to be learned from each match. I, too, though, feel sorry that more people don't support the heavier weights. Put yourself at another event, be it sporting or otherwise, do you get up and leave after your preferred event is over? When you stick around and watch, you learn that there are awesome matches at every weight. You come to know names and wrestlers across the state at all levels. Believe me, those wrestlers know when they have the support of spectators!

Just a humble opinion, but I think part of the problem is that we have all been conditioned by local tourneys and duals.

At duals, the 215 and 275 matches are often moot, due to an unbalanced score, therefore kind of anticlimactic.

And let's not kid ourselves, in duals and local tourneys the talent pool among the boombalatties is often somewhat weak. Bobo the dancing Bear often comes to mind. And on some squads, the HWT is the one guy in school who weighs over 250, and has any athletic talent whatsoever. (Before the angry replies come rolling in, I should point out that I'm a boombalatty myself..

That being said, I witnessed some AWESOME action from some fast/aggressive/talented wrestlers this weekend at 215 and 275. The Hemmerling kid (just as one example) from Hutch in 6A 215 looked like a giant clone of a 145 pounder, muscular, cut, rangy, FAST and decisive on his shots.

Anyone who left early missed some great action, and it is their loss.

Here's a thought, split the weights, and alternate them. Everyone will still know the order, and we will spread the weights out.

For instance:
103
145
112
152
119
160
125
171
130
189
135
215
140
275

On second thought, even better would be to split the weights, invert the top half:
103
275
112
215
119
189
125
171
130
160
135
152
140
145

A lot of duals are determined by those middle weights, this will hopefully keep butts in seats.

One thing on the case of order, I do know that in the Collegiate rules the only variable is where the order starts but it must be sequential. I think the idea is great for promoting the upper weights but maybe starting finals at 171 or 160 might be more appropriate so that you could have a good match to get people into it and then let some slow matches and then more exciting matches. This is how it was at the OSU/Iowa dual, they had the weight with the two highest ranked wrestlers go last. It might work for the state.

First to Fan 67 I did not say you were a rookie nor did I imply it in case you were wondering, age means nothing to me and I don't even know who you are so I can't really say anything about your accomplishments so you can't really say you have more than me unless you really know what mine are! So please refrain from insulting comments. Second to 215elkfan, no one said there is a lack of talent or skill at the upper weights, in fact there is plenty of skill at the upper weights, I hate to use an Abilene example but it was the first one to come to my mind. But Corey Casteel was our Heavyeight wrestler my freshman year and everyone actually stayed to watch his matches becuase he was exciting when he wrestled, he physically dominated most of his opponets and didn't just push them around for whole periods. But that is part of the problem is that is what has been happening for so many years so most people don't stay around. Personally and this is just my opinion, I think they should get rid of the 275 pound weight class. And I don't really want to start another thread on this but obviously everyone can see that the only people interested in staying around for those matches are the wrestlers themselves, their parents and of course the coaches. Finnaly sure if you want to flip the weights and have the heavier guys go first fine, but the point is the interest level is going to be the same and that will be about the time that everyone gets up to go for a bathroom break, or concession stand break.

I may be mistaken, or maybe this was just something the KSHSAA said could be used as a test at league dual matches, but I remember a year or two ago a rule that said if the HOME team wanted to, it could start at any weight and then go up from there in sequential order, then back to 103 and up again...

Maybe the KSHSAA decided it wasn't worth the time/effort to do this, but I heard they are doing this at a some college duals, but in a slightly different way...About 30-45 minutes before the dual, they put all the weight classes in a hat...The weight that is picked is where they start, again in sequential order...

Nigel, In your first response in the thread you said " if you watched wrestling, you would know you just can't start at some random weight because of the way matches are asigned based on first availibility" If I watched wrestling? I watched Abilene crown their first state champ(Rod Olsen) in 1966. I remember his coach, Bob Holeman and what a wonderful caring person he was. My point is I have watched wrestling and Abilene wrestling. I've watched you wrestle.
Back to the real issue, why can't you put weights in random order. Wrestlers and coaches are not stupid. If 275 were matches 101-108 and 103 lb had matches 105-113, I think kids are smart enough to figure out when their match is and be able to get to the correct mat.
Just because we have done it one way since the beginning of time, doesn't mean there may not be a better way of doing it. All I'm asking, is for everyone including coaches and KSHAA to think about it and decide if ther might be a better way to keep more fans until the end. If there is not a better way, I can go along with it.
If the 4A was set up for an Abilene wrestler and a Columbus wrestler to wrestle last and the team championship was on the line, would we have had more people in the stands at the end of the tournament?

Sorry 103 matches should have been 109-117. Maybe I not smart enough to do it but I'm sure the young guys can figure it out.

Another thought, Why do we give the medals for 103 after the 112 matches? If we waited until the end of the tournament and had one big parade, I think we would keep more fans at the tournament longer. Every parent, brother, sister, girlfriend would stay to watch little Johnnie get his medal. Teams would have to stay until the end so their wrestlers could pick up their medals. It may not work, but I think we should at least give it some thought and discuss it.

Just a thought from out of the ball park about possibly making the heavyweight matches more exciting to watch. I often see comments about two lumbering dancing bears or how there is just slow boring action in these matches. Yet it seems that for the general public (whose interest is needed if wrestling is ever really going to gain wide popularity) the most popular forms of wrestling are Sumo or the WWF professional variety. Both of these are with bigger participants.

So my question is could we do some rule changes for this weight class that would speed up the action. For instance (I'm sure most of you will think I'm crazy with these suggestions) how about making them start facing each other on their knees or football stance like two football lineman, if there is no traditional takedown after 1 minute. We used to have wrestling bouts with the KSU football players in the off-season (winter 1970) that started that way. It did not take too long before someone was on their back or at least a reversal/takedown event took place. They were actually pretty fast and exciting matches. Or another thought (you will really think I'm crazy now) would be to have Sumo style points given on the initial takedown for the heavyweights say one point for driving your opponent outside the circle and two if you throw the opponent down to the mat without gaining control in the traditional manner. I know these are wild ideas but I'm just wondering if there is a way to make these heavyweight matches faster and more exciting.

If I pay $9.50 to get into the tournament, and I want to leave early to beat the other 3000+ people out of the parking lot, I think I have the right to do that. No disrespect to the big guys, but if you aren't there to watch them, why stay?