Gutbomb probably lost a big match to someone from Kansas, and all he could do was think of an excuse like the most lame of them all: "All that kid did was stall, and the official let him." Now, he is doing everything he can to "get back" at Kansans. Nice job, Gut, you've finally found something you're good at, and it is almost like winning...Whining!

Let gutstench ramble on. If the thread lasts long enough he will produce stats which contradict his opinions just like he did on the D-1 coaches rejecting Kansas wrestlers.

He doesn't need the money because he's the mayor of Ark City? Makes sense to me.

gutwrench1

That last response makes no sense. Answer the questions that have been posed for you.

Ah, I touched on a sore spot for some of you. The truth hurts. You don't seem to want any criticism on this board. Criticism is meant to provoke change. I never mentioned any refs by name in this post other than Anderson who was mentioned by someone else and I complimented what I've seen of him. But, I'm very glad to see that some of you cheese-eaters took the bait and jumped on here to show your ignorance. You are partially responsible for fostering the unique KS style of wrestling characterized by a lack of offense. Plain and simple you're doing your sport a disservice because offense is what people come to see. If you want to promote your sport and get more spectators than a high school girls volleyball game, then stop doing what you're doing. Being offensive-minded is behind most of the rule changes in wrestling. Do you see how they're promoting RPW (Real Pro Wrestling)? It's loaded with offense and will be thrilling to watch. You need to get off the board and out to a good college match and to see how quickly refs throw stalling calls around and how often they tell the wrestlers that they want action. Do that and learn how to call control in some of the scramble positions. One new rule in college is that you only have to have one foot in bounds to score. Why? To open up opportunity for offense and create more scrambles on the edge of the mat. Glad you boys are defending your sport and your State, that's mighty noble of you. You sure told me and I'm devastated. Now be men. Thicken your skin and admit that KS needs to change to a more attacking, offensive-minded style that people want to see and are seeing in other states. You don't need a pity party or a hissy fit because someone challenged you with an opposing point of view. Cowboy up!

Wow gutwrench,
I thought maybe you had realized that Kansas wrestling produces top notch wrestlers (you even posted that Kansas ranks well above most states in producing D1 Qualifiers). Perhaps the style of wrestling in Kansas helps foster the physicallity needed to wrestle on the mat in college. Coach Smith from MU has commented on that to me personally. He likes Kansas wrestlers because they know how to ride, and stay active while doing it. As long as you are active, it is not stalling, and I think that our officials in Kansas do a great job allowing our wrestlers to wrestle.

If a wrestler is working let him keep working, even if points aren't going up on the board. I know that riding someone for an entire period will wear them down and make scoring easier in the 3rd period.

As far as rule changes are concerned, at our regional this year it was proposed that we move to the one foot in bounds rule like the colleges did. The problem there is that not everyone has the best facilities and this could put wrestlers at risk of injury if they end up on the gym floor or in the bleachers.

As far as putting people in the stands, obviously you have never been to a dual or tournament in the Northwest portion of the state. I have wrestled in a dual with over 1000 people in attendance. I have wrestled in 8 man bracket tournaments and regional tournaments with well over 2000 people in the stands, so I guess Kansas wrestling will draw a crowd!

As far as what I think people want to see, they want to see wrestlers wrestle, from all positions, not a takedown fest. This isn't the NBA, AFL, or RPW and I don't think we need to have matches that are 25-20 in order to be exciting. Keep track this weekend at St. Louis and see how many exciting 4-2, 5-4, 2-1 matches there will be.

I tell you I am excited to see some good low scoring, hard fought battles, and I will be rooting for all those Kansas boys that will be wrestling!

Originally posted by gutwrench1
"Here's the other side of the coin to a subject I started about KS wrestling turning off DI coaches. These are the numbers of NCAA DI qualifiers by state. KS does exceptionally well for such a small state coming in at 13th with seven qualifiers. I believe those kids are Jacob Klein (4A),Shawn Bunch(6A), Joe Johnston (6A), Scott Coleman (6A), Justin Dyer (6A), Matt Murray (4A), Jake Kreigbaum (4A). Can't argue against facts like these. Kansas wrestlers are cutting it at the highest levels and more should have the opportunity to do so. These guys are a credit to their state."

PA 59
OH 35
CA 29
NJ 28
MI 16
IL 15
IA 12
NY 12
WI 11
VA 10
FL 9
IN 8
KS 7
ID 6
MN 6
TN 6
CO 6
OK 6
OR 5
MO 5

How quickly gutstench forgets. Lets hope he isn't sitting on stat that shows more Kansas referees working college wrestling than any of the surrounding states. Our Kansas wrestlers must be better from their feet than the Missouri and Oklahoma boys.

Another amazing thing about that statistic is that every state above Kansas has at least 1 D1 program. Just think how many more wrestlers there could be if we had 1 or 2 D1 programs in state that would draw more of our kids!

CoachTWink,
You make several good points. I'll be rooting for those KS boys in the NCAAs, too. The difference between your 4-2 match and one you'll see in St. Louis is that you won't see college kids grabbing a cross wrist sticking the knee in the hole and holding on for an entire period while the bottom man gets called for stalling. They'll be forced to work from top for the minute advantage or they'll turn them loose to work for a takedown. As a general rule and there are always exceptions, KS kids don't know how to handfight, shoot and counter from the neutral position, not the way the elite states do. How many KS wrestlers are good at high crotches? You hardly ever see one.

Sptsfan,
I'm glad you appreciate my stats, but the fact that these boys are a credit to Kansas doesn't mean KS style is responsible for their college success. None of these NCAA qualifiers wrestles Kansas sytle. Not one. Bunch is the best of the bunch and he's a takedown machine. Johnson is really exceptional only from his feet. Dyer best from his feet and not a good scrambler on the mat. Klein is solid all around. Go back a ways to Melvin Douglas, guy was exceptional from the neutral position. No college wrestler could become an NCAA DI All-American with the type of wrestling that you guys are saying IS Kansas.

The difference between your 4-2 match and one you'll see in St. Louis is that you won't see college kids grabbing a cross wrist sticking the knee in the hole and holding on for an entire period while the bottom man gets called for stalling.

I don't think as a Coach I have ever taught this style further more To say that every official lets this happen in a match is probably an over statement. Do some officials let this happen? maybe, Do all officials call stalling on the bottom man? no. Do most officials call stalling on the top man? most I have seen. If they didn't I would have asked for one and if it was my kid on top I wouldn't argue the call

What DI program is in Florida? They only have club teams thus far.

What DI program is in Florida? They only have club teams thus far.

What DI program is in Florida? They only have club teams thus far.

GUT-
It is asinine to assert that the State of Kansas has one style of wrestling. Your statement that the guys from Kansas that are D1 do not follow the "Kansas Style" is proof of that.

Also, GUT, when your talking about D1 wrestlers, don't forget to mention Matt Murray (Defending NCAA D1 Runner-up from Colby) : ) We will also have our second D1 wrestler in the last four years when Eric Luedke makes his decision of where he is going. Do we not follow the "Kansas" style???

Maybe you don't teach the Kansas style at Colby, but surely you've run into it out West. With all due respect, hasn't Lueke's game got a lot better at Colby CC. And didn't a year with Muz, have something to do with that? Weren't Muz and Murray together, too? Give Colby CC and workout partners some credit for the developement of your kids, too. I do remember Senior Lueke's very cautious and conservative win over then freshman Erisman in the finals of state when he wrestled for Colby HS.

Sweazy,
My bad, I forgot about Florida, but did you have to point out my mistake 3 times? :p

Gutwrench,
No one said these wrestlers didn't get better once they went to college. I would say that ALL wrestlers get better in college, not just our Kansas kids. It has to do with a higher level of competetion and greater hours spent in the mat room, and better coaching as well, but I am sure that wrestlers from Missouri, Oklahoma, and every other state go through the same transition. The point here is that these wrestlers are great athletes who were coached in a manner to give them some of the tools they would need to succeed at the next level. To say they are the exception to the rule is ridiculous, they are the cream of the crop.

I know for a fact that Colby High School teaches their wrestlers how to ride (or their kids are just born with the ability), as should all coaches, it is 1/3 of the wrestling match!

In conclusion you contradict yourself at every turn. First you say that Kansas wrestling style is stopping our wrestlers from getting to the next level, but then you point out that we rank 13th in states producing NCAA qualifiers, which is good considering our low population. Then you say that these wrestlers don't represent Kansas wrestling, so you can continue with your tirade. I will say it again, these wrestlers are the cream of the crop of Kansas wrestling, not the exception to the rule. Yes, they are better than most, but that is why they are D1 qualifiers!!!!

If Kansas wrestlers are not wrestling Kansas style than who is? If you think DI wrestlers don't ride, maybe you should try wrestling them and see if you can get away. Are there wrestlers from other states wrestling Kansas style? Cause that is stealing.

First of all, listen to Coach Twink! He know's his stuff. Secondly, the comments about Jimmy Ramerez is embarrassing to the wrestling community. He is one of the best officials period - and very well respected throughout the nation. Gutwrench, I have no idea who you are but it's very obviouse to me your either an idiot or you have no idea what your talking about. I've talked to several DI school wrestling coaches (most of which are rivals of OSU) and when I tell them where I'm from they bring up Jimmy - and comment on how much respect they have for him. Which kind of draws down the power of your words tremendously.

Handfight? Sounds like a game two girls would play.