Willie. You need to go talk to a school district superintendent or a HS building administrator. So far you are out of bounds.

Contrarian, does anybody else require permission to speak in the middle of the mat before the tourney begins, or just Wrestlers for Christ? That should answer your question.

Contrarian,

You will sometimes be offended by others. It's part of life in a free society. If this truly offends you to the point that you must turn your back or leave the arena, then you are probably too sensitive to attend a wrestling regional in the first place.

Except for the stopping wrestling part, I would support your efforts to do that. What harm could come from young Muslims practicing their beliefs and asking for safety?

I tried to ignore this topic because absolutely no one is going to consider an opposing viewpoint. This topic is like trying to teach pigs to sing….it annoys you and frustrates the pig. But, two statements by Contrarian caught my attention.

Originally posted by Contrarian

"......I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their religion."

SOME Christians believe this, not all of us. Some Christians even condemn other Christians as not being pious enough or for holding different views.

Originally posted by Contrarian

"America is a very diverse country: ethnic, politically, economically, and religiously."

I don’t think Kansas is very diverse outside of Johnson County and a few other pockets. A large percentage of Kansans have never considered that they might one day be the minority either in race or religion. That would change things considerably.

We just have to tolerate the tunnel-vision thinking that everyone is a like-thinking Christian and that everyone else should just get used to it. Live long enough and things change.

1- no one is forcing you to watch, like i said you bought the ticket, buy a program and keep your head down, this would be a great time to study the weight classes, or an even better time to buy your popcorn.
2- they don't need permission to pray, the constitution says so. who the hell do you think you are to question the consitution of these United States.

Very well said Lou Ann, what most christians can't seem to understand is that not everyone shares their religous views, But to them anyone who believs differently is going to burn in hell anyway so if we cram our religion down their throats enough times maybe they will convert.

the only wrong thing here is your idea, that their religious FREEDOM can be infringed upon. you simply can not tell anyone when or how to coduct their religious beliefs. you are not understanding the law correctly, sir. but that doesn't surprise me, you seem to have problems understanding just about everything.

BTW i haven't been to church in over 2 decades, and don't consider myself a Christian. But you had better believe that i am an American, and i am very proud, that my grandfather, father, numerous uncles, two of my best friends, contrarian, redeployd, and all other veterans have fought for my freedoms. the same freedoms that allow these young men, to practice their religion how they see fit, and the freedoms that allow us to speak our minds on such sensitive subjects. i salute you all. thank you.

What is sad is that even within the christian community there is strife, A lot of the conservative baptists and independant bible churches think that all catholics will burn in hell. I remember a conversation with chief renegade and mike furches on that very subject several years ago at the wichita classic. They informed me that the catholics had it all wrong and that they were not truely saved, what should people believe the christians can't even decide amongst themselves what is right. That is what happens when people live their life based on fables and ancient stories told by nomadic sheep herders gathered around a campfire.

Lord, I appreciate every gift you have given us! The gift of free will, thoughts and ideas, communication, and on and on! Mostly I thank you for your son Jesus Christ! What a gift you have given us. I also thank you for a country that allows us to do as we please, believe what we want and come to you only if we decide to! I pray for those who believe, those who do not believe and those that are stuck with a giant question mark on which side of the fence they want to be on! I pray that you give them clarity and a desire for you Lord. I ask that over the next weeks you give travel safety and health to all wrestlers, parents, spectators, fans believers and non-believers! While I pray that we are humbled in our gifts I also pray that you are glorified in how we coach, compete, and carry ourselves in your name. I ask these prayers and many more.... Amen!

Let's reason. Unless you have a surface level only understanding of the bible or history, you know that there are irreconcilable differences between Catholics and Protestants. It's the reason for the Reformation. In a nutshell, if I were to say that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ to a priest, he would agree with me. But if I said that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, he would disagree. Catholics believe in the bible PLUS church tradition. Protestants stand for the 5 "Solas" of the reformation, Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola fide (Faith alone), Sola gratia (Grace alone), Sola Christus (Christ alone) and Soli deo gloria (Glory to God alone). In short, we DISAGREE about the Gospel. That's why it is irreconcilable.

Mike Furches and I are Protestants. We believe that the bible is without error and is the only authority written to mankind. The catechism states that protestants are accursed. So be clear and know both positions before you state what Mike and I told you in Wichita. There is MUCH MORE information that would further clarify my beliefs and I would be entirely glad to explain those to anyone who asks.

Think about this. If someone asked you how to get to heaven, what would you say? Don't say "Be good" or "Do good" and then also say you are a Christian. The bible cleary states that NOBODY is good. Romans 3:10 and that ALL have sinned. Romans 3:23. It's not my opinion, it's what the words say.

Now you can certainly say that you don't believe the bible. That is a valid intellectual stance. Just don't say that you are a follower of Christ (A Christian) and then deny what is in the bible or have no idea what it says.

Just some clarity on my position since you recalled a talk we had in Wichita 5 years ago. I'm glad that was still on your mind.

The bible states that no man is good that we are all sinners because of the original sin, Adam eating the forbidden fruit, since that day man has been cursed. According to the bible we are saved by grace and by putting our trust and faith in jesus christ who is also god and the holy ghost( the Trinity) Try to explain that one. No man is saved from good works because no amount of good works can overcome a single sin, So a man who has followed the bible his whole life and the worst child molester and murderer are in the same boat doomed to hell unless they come to jesus, who saved us by taking on all of our sins on the cross.so once you are saved you are always saved until you read hebrews 10:26
New International Version (©1984)
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

I can debate the bible with you all day chief, I have read it and reread it several times have been to bible classes in the baptist,independant bible church, catholic ,lutheran, and any sane man will realize that these are nice stories and the world would be a better place if everyone lived and cared for each other like the bible says but they are fables and ancient stories whose orgins come from many other ancient religous stories and beliefs that did not take hold over the course of time.

So now you are saying that Christians are insane. Interesting.

I can't let that one go without answering. Receiving the knowledge of the truth is not salvation! Even the demons believed the facts, James 2:19. Nobody lost their salvation. They never had saving faith.

Sane was the wrong word to use there chief I should of said open minded and reasonable man. Sorry I did not mean to suggest that anyone was insane

Open minded can often mean undecided.

Or it can mean one that looks at all the facts including evolution and science before he commits his life to a book of ancient fables.

Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups.

Lancer Lou

Originally posted by Contrarian

"......I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their religion."

I think it was Chief renegade who said this to me last year in this same discussion---Christians have to demonstrate their belief and..............

Posted by Headup. "BTW i haven't been to church in over 2 decades, and don't consider myself a Christian. But you had better believe that i am an American, and i am very proud, that my grandfather, father, numerous uncles, two of my best friends, contrarian, redeployd, and all other veterans have fought for my freedoms. the same freedoms that allow these young men, to practice their religion how they see fit, and the freedoms that allow us to speak our minds on such sensitive subjects. i salute you all. thank you.

Contrarian's Response: I did my 22 tears active Army service, carried a gun, flew helocopeters, saw some blood and death. Also lost a younger bother in service to his country. WHEN, WHERE AND HOW LONG DID YOU SERVE HEADUP--OR DO YOU YET NEED TO PROVE YOUR PATRIOTISM. Or you an arm chair patriot?. And yes, I can watch the gore of HS wrestling!

contrarian, re-read the post, i simply thanked you for protecting my freedoms. how can anyone find fault in that? no i have not been to war, but please don't question my patriotism. again you are crossing the line. not sure where you came up with the "gore of wrestling" that wasn't me??? you need to understand something, people can have opposing views in this country. you and i don't agree, but i don't feel that i ever tried to insult you. please show some respect as i feel, most on here have respected you. have a great day.