A picture of the mat set-up in Mizzou Arena.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/ridetheyard23/2011MissouriStateWrestling.jpg

It's a little difficult to see but behind the yellow bunting are the seats pushed back that are normally courtside. The fact these seats are not permanent is what affords enough room for eight mats. Does Allen and Bramlage have the same set-up with the seats courtside?

Mr. Cokeley I have wondered about that for a long time. When I first moved here in 1990 and found out about the way Kansas handles state wrestling I honestly thought people were kidding me. My personal opinion is this is unexcusable. I, like most on here, would love to see all of the state wrestling in one location. But I have heard all of the excuses of why we can't do the one location scenario. Excuses like we don't have a venue large enough to hold all of the spectators, we don't have a city with enough hotel space, it would take too many days, or we don't have a venue with enough floor space for all of the mats. So, the biggest question is, IF we all want it, how do we go about making this change??? Anyone who has ever been in sales knows the process of closing a sale. Those who want to see the one location scenario need to get in there, discuss the possibilities, overcome objections, come up with plausable alternatives, select the best location and make it happen. I'm not holding my breath but here's hoping.

The seats do not slide in Bramlage, but they do in Allen.

The question is:

Could Hartman Arena adequately accomodate a three day state schedule staggered with all four classes? Change 6A and 5A to 16 team regionals which will qualify eight (25%) to state. Wrestle 321A & 6A in a sessions, 4A & 5A in a sessions until we get to the semi finals which would all be wrestled Friday night. Finals all on Saturday night. What would the Greater Wichita Chamber of Commerce be willing to chip in? Can we throw in trackwrestling.com to manage the tournament and provide streaming internet coverage? Could someone get attendance numbers so we could start doing the math on this idea?

Having pondered the question of one venue even before the Coliseum closed I have come to this conclusion. The only way for it to happen and the venue be addequate is to, use two different facilities on Friday in Wichita. Then on Saturday combine them into one tournament at Intrust Arena. What you would have to do is run your typical Friday preliminaries with 5A and 6A at Hartman Arena and 4-3,2,1A at Intrust. Then on Saturday all wrestling would move as I said, to Intrust. You would use as many mats as would fit on the floor of Intrust on Saturday. You might have to run an additional side of consolations on Friday in order to eliminate a few more wrestlers but I believe this formula would allow all classes to get under one roof for Saturday which is what is important. Like I said in another thread, it doesn't matter until 2014 anyway. Most likely you would need to pick up hosts for each site much like the old days when the tournament at the Coliseum was hosted in part by what was at that time the old Chisolm Trail League. The Greater Wichita Athletic League could host the tournament at Hartman and the AVCTL could host the tournament at Intrust. All that means is each league would be responsible for running the tournament and supplying volunteers.

The schedule Missouri uses is posted on one of the Missouri wrestling sites, if follows:

Competition Schedule-

Weigh-in Schedule
Thursday 8 a.m. Class 1 and 2
Thursday 3 p.m. Class 3 and 4
Friday 8 a.m. Class 1 and 2
Friday 12 Noon Class 3 and 4
Saturday 8:30 a.m. All Classes

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 1 (8 mats - 336 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Class 1 First-Round
10 a.m. Class 2 First-Round
10 a.m. Class 1 First-Round Wrestlebacks
10 a.m. Class 2 First-Round Wrestlebacks

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 2 (8 mats - 336 matches)
4 p.m. Gates Open

5 p.m. Class 3 First-Round
5 p.m. Class 4 First-Round
5 p.m. Class 3 First-Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 4 First-Round Wrestlebacks

Friday, Feb. 18
Session 3 (8 mats - 616 matches)
8:30 a.m. Gates Open

9:30 a.m. Class 1 Quarterfinals
9:30 a.m. Class 2 Quarterfinals
9:30 a.m. Class 1 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
9:30 a.m. Class 2 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
1:30 p.m. Class 3 Quarterfinals
1:30 p.m. Class 4 Quarterfinals
1:30 p.m. Class 3 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
1:30 p.m. Class 4 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
6 p.m.* Semifinals (all classes)
6 p.m.* Third-Round Wrestlebacks (all classes)

Saturday, Feb. 19
Session 4 (8 mats - 280 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Fourth-Round Wrestlebacks (all classes)
12 Noon Fifth-Place Matches (all classes)
12 Noon Third-Place Matches (all classes)

Saturday, Feb. 19
Session 5 (4 mats - 56 matches)
3:30 p.m. Gates Open

4 p.m. Finalists March

4:30 p.m. Championship Bouts

Sport0,

Does your proposal incorporate the change in the number of state qualifiers? I believe that portion of the proposal is critical to the feasibility of any solution. Why should 1/2 or more of the varsity wrestlers in 5A and 6A be allowed to qualify for state? Reduce it to 25%. In the early 80's only 8 qualified for state in 5A and 6A and the tournaments were hosted by high schools. Junction City hosted 5A and 6A in the same high school in 1979 and 1980. I am confident if one high school can house two classifications at a time then the Hartman could handle it.

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 1 (8 mats - 336 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Class 321A First-Round
10 a.m. Class 4A First-Round
10 a.m. Class 321A First-Round Wrestlebacks
10 a.m. Class 4A First-Round Wrestlebacks

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 2 (8 mats - 336 matches)
4 p.m. Gates Open

5 p.m. Class 321A Second-Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 4A Second- Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 5A First-Round
5 p.m. Class 6A First-Round

If we used this format for 321A and 4A then there would only be wrestlers left in each class so the total number of wrestlers going into Friday morning would be equal to the number of wrestlers you had in Hartman this past Friday. That being said, a split schedule would EASILY house the participants and crowd until we are down to the final six for Saturday. This would give plenty of time on Saturday to make the medal placers feel special. This year at Salina everything was rush, rush, rush.

Three days are utilized by Iowa and Missouri so why can't our kids miss three days of class?

Either or, that is a separate issue. I do believe my plan is workable with current numbers. Something that would be of interest is, would the coaches favor going back to only wrestling out to 3rd/4th place in order to eliminate matches?

I thought of that idea as well. Medaling 4/32 in 5A and 6A is less than 12% and medaling 6/64 is less than 10%. I didn't broach it as I figured the lack of uniformity would cause more detractors and I would like to get as many on the bandwagon as possible.

These ideas are all well and good and I doubt anyone can argue that this is what would be best for the fans, however, when the state went to the separate locations each class went to four mats for the state tournament. How many of you remember the days of 4-6A in one building, 3 mats, 9am on Friday until 10 pm Friday evening, the old coliseum had it's problems, and there multiple incidents of parents/coaches/wrestlers/officials getting into altercations. Mr. Bowden told me that since the change to four mats for each class there have been practically none of these types of incidents occurring. The four mats is what's best for the kids, and no one can argue that the kids are not what it should be about. I imagine that spreading it out over three days would cause some challenges to the way things are done and it would be best for college recruiters to focus on one location as well as fans, is that what's best for kids? Somehow convince me that is the case, I'm listening. In the meantime, I believe what is currently done is what's best for the kids.

Coach, I do not believe spreading the tournament over three days is an option due to budget restraints on every school district. I saw none of the problems that you describe at the Coliseum and certainly wouldn't blame them on the use of three mats as opposed to four if I did. The day got much longer when they started wrestling out to 5th/6th place. Until then Saturday was filled with some much needed and well deserved breaks for the volunteers and coaches.

I too agree that I don't recall seeing any incidents involving parents, fans, coaches, officials etc... but that came directly from Mr. Bowden, stating those incidents had gone away. I remember how tough it was to eat at 10 on Friday night and be up and at it again the next day at 9, I can imagine a few parents coaches etc... being tired and more prone to argument. I love the 4 mats and Hays is a great experience for 321A and I have coached at one time or another in all of the classes.

Lots of good ideas here and interest in getting into one site.

But, the one issue I don't think will ever fly is KSHSAA combining 6A and 5A. The are pros and cons to this proposal, and I don't care either way, but I think the cons out weigh the pros.

1. Wrestling is only one of 14 KSHSAA sports

2. The 32-32-64-96 provides the best hierachial scheme for qualifying the best teams/individuals for all sports for state level competition.

3. If you change the scheme for wrestling (combine 6A and 5A) do you chang the scheme for all other sports. Seldom if ever is a top rated 4A football, Basketball, volleyball or soccer team going to beat a top rated 6A or 5A team in those sports. Perhaps they can in the more individualized sports--wrestling, golf, and tennis.

4. The current scheme provides the most kids in all sports a chance to experience state level qualification and competion. And that is a KSHSAA goal.

5. For wrestling, a review of Chief's 23 Feb All Class Rankings reveals that of the 140 ranked individuals (14 weights X 10 ranked wrestlers), 33 (23+%)are 6A, 41 (29+%) are Class 5A, 40 (28+%0 are 4A, and 27 (19+%) are 321A.

6. 6A and 5A combined provide 74 of the 140 ranked wrestler--or 52+%.

7. Class 5A with 32 schools had 41 ranked wrestler, one more than the the 40 ranked wresler from 64 schools in 4A. 6A had 33 ranked wrestlers compared to 27 in 321A and 40 in 4A.

8. Combining 6A and 5A into a 64 school class would probably still rovide over half of the top 140 ranked wrestlers-but could only send half of those to state. That's a lot of ranked wrestlers to leave home. Another way to express it is wrestling in a combined 6-5A class would be almost twice as competitive as 4A.

9. Cutting 6A and 5A medalist to 4 and keeping six 6 medalists in 4A and 321A as a time saving measure does not make sense--thats 28 matches (2 rounds)(14 and 14). Why not just reduce all four classes to 4 medalist--that's twice the minutes saved.

9. Recombining 4A-6A in one facility might be the only practical way to have a more inclusive state tournament. If they did 4A-6A on 9 mats at the Coliseum, than surely they could do 4A-6A on 8 mats. May have to start earlier and stay later. May have to do it in sessions.

10. A one site state tournament in two facilities in the same town is a loser.

11. Think at least a one site state tournament for three classes is very doable, possibly a four class tournament but would require a 3rd day. But using 6A and 5A as the bill payers does not fly.

That was the intent of my suggestion.

Then we are out of options because we don't have a venue that can handle it. Just because other states have venues that can handle it, doesn't mean Kansas does.

What about Landon Arena in Topeka. 221 X 111 feet. Will hold 8 40 foot mats--maybe even 9. Seats 7700 in theater seats. May add a few additional seats for a four 4 mat finals--some seats pull out from under from under the main seats. Could add s many as 528 seats for a capacity of 8200+. Note: would take some manpower, time and extra costs to add the additional seats.

Understand the reason probably not in Landon already is booking conflicts. Circus is and has been booked into Landon for the last weekend in Feb for years. Don't know about the 3rd weekend in Feb or 1st weekend in March. But, if KSHSAA were to say they could bring in 13 to 15K spectators, Landon might come available.
I think most of the surrounding states hold their tournaments a week before Kansas. Can Kansas shorten the year by a week--or start a week earlier. Need to do something to consolidate the tournaments rather than playing switch'em or talking the issue to death.


Comments on Landon from the Kids Wrestling community? Understand you have a Kids State at Landon in late March.

Please poke holes in my plan? I did NOT request to combine 5A and 6A or change the size of the classes just the number of state qualifiers. Why not 3 days? I PROMISE you it will make money and put to shame the current cost/earnings model. My numbers work. Why can Iowa and Missouri make 3 days work but Kansas cannot???

Do 3 days, with 3 classes (or all 4 classes) Make it Topeka, Wichita, Salina, wherever. It will be more fun, better for fans, and surely will make more money to have a packed arena instead of half-full ones all over.

I take these word of yours, and others, as advocating to either combine 6A and 5A, or somehow reduce the number of wrestlers they send to state. Somewhere in this Forum today I posted some figures on Chief's 23 Feb All Class rankings. I reperat: of 140 ranked wrestlers (14 weights X 10 ranked wrestlers per weight), 74 were 6A and 5A (52+%)(33 6A and 41 5A), 40 were 4A (28+%) and 27 321A (19+%). 5A with half as many wrestlers had one more ranked wrestlers than 4A. So, if we can accept that 5A and 6A dominates Kansas wrestling--why reduce the number they send to state. The old 25% VS 50% arguement is just that--OLD.

When the Coliseum was in use it held 9 full mats comfortably.


The Coliseum held approximately 9k and was filled to capacity for finals. That was with three classes.

Will: Look at Colorado's schedule; they do four classes in three days. But, of course they hold it in the Pepsi Center in Denver on 10 mats and have about 18,000 seats available. No facility in the Kansas can match that.
I applaud your idea, but I doubt you will ever disentrench 3-2-1A from Hays. I just don't see it happening. I could see 4As moving back with 6A and 5A, but I think the chances of all four classes in the same place rank right up there with you and Rick Bowden going bowling together.
When I was still coaching down there, I proposed the idea of putting 6A and 5A in Bramlege and 4A and 3-2-1A in Ahearn -- everything in one town, then move the finals all to Bramlege. I could see K-State being cooperative with that, but I think it would be a cold day in Missouri before KU would ever allow wrestling at Allen.