Executive Board meeting!

I applaud the Executive board for heavily supporting two proposals to be voted on at the State Body meeting!

1. The 16U division would be changed to the High School division!

2. The 14U division would be a true Kids division. No High School wrestlers competing against kids division wrestlers.

These proposals would set the tone for many positive developments for Kansas wrestling!

Great job guys. Let's put Kansas on the national stage!

Couple of questions, Would all High School wrestlers be able to participate? Would an 8th grader who is 15 still qualify for 14U, since he is not in High School yet?

It is my understanding that....

1. All HS wrestlers would be able to compete. A Grand State type of tournament at last!

2. If the kid is 15 before the age deadline, he would have to compete in the HS division.

Surely we can get overwhelming response for these proposals.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of turnout did we have for the executive council meeting? Did all of the districts' representatives attend as they should have? There have been problems in the past with some game changing votes missing from these meetings, and we as a body need to make sure we have representatives that will do just that, represent our district.

Doug

With as much discussion as this topic has had, I am surprised that this thread has not been noticed.

As I understand it, if passed at the State meeting:

1. The 14U class will include only 8th graders and below.

2. The 16U class becomes an all-inclusive High School Division.

Last year I would not have liked #1 in your post. This year I like it.

You are going to find the 14u division much less competitive if this passes, and I don't know if that is what our 8th graders need right before they get to high school. IMO, they need their eyes opened to what it is going to be like in high school.

As for #2, IF, and that is a big IF, all of the high school champs and placers go thru the qualifiers for kids' state, we will get some good matches in that new high school division. Problem is, you'll see many of the high schoolers "ending on a good note" after high school season. Whether it be they don't want to cut anymore weight, or, heaven forbid, they don't want to take a chance on getting beat by a kid from another class, I just wonder what type of participation we'll get in this new "high school" group.

Thanks
Doug

In my opinion, they both are huge positives. Of course this will make the 14U Kids division less competitive, but it will be a true Kids division. In the past we have had 10th graders wrestling 7th graders for a medal, instead of getting a real education by participating in FS/GR. The 8th graders will get an eyeful just by watching the High School division and will not miss much by not having one or two matches against one of them. The HS division is even more exciting. Sure you will have some that don't continue after HS state, but think of the potential match-ups! It would sure help settle some All-Class rankings. If we can get match-ups like, Cokeley/Cox, Maple/Napier or Windham/Pursel, this event will triple the interest of the present 16U division.

I HOPE that is how it pans out. The other thing you have to factor in is the high schoolers that will NOT wrestle because of, for example, freshman having to wrestle seniors, for kids club. I think we are going to lose quite a few high school kids that usually come back to wrestle kids, that won't because of the larger age groups.

Don't get me wrong, I like 'em both, but I would be surprised if they increased participation in kids' state qualifiers. And it is sad that it wouldn't INCREASE participation. We have to change the mindset of our kids today, and beat into their heads that you can learn more, most of the time, by losing a match, than you can in winning one.

Thanks
Doug

I also disagree w/ the changes to 14U class. First, for the most part becomes a 1 year age group. Second, it denies Jr. Varsity kids from High School a chance to compete at a level that is more fair for them or where they will have a greater chance of success and give them more mat time. Third, at the higher weights it could discourage freshmen from even coming out as their chance of success is less (not saying this is a good reason).

Finally, I believe the 8th graders have some advantages over the freshmen they wrestle - the high school kids are normally done cutting weight and the 8th graders cut more for state. Next, the high school kids are not use to 1.5 minute rounds - the 8th graders are. I believe this really helped my son this year. Finally, the kids clubs kids have wrestled more matches, have been able to attend clinics and things like Purler/Akin, etc. In other words they do not have the restrictions that high schoolers have in getting better practice partners, and so on. In other words, they can compete.

Finally, wrestling against high school kids is the best incentive to keep the younger kids working hard in the off-season. But, whatever.

My guess is that most everyone that has a freshman that will still be 14U, will be against the change. It is a natural reaction because of watching past freshmen and sophomores finish High School state and then compete against the kids division. My advice would be to lay out sound reasoning against it. Giving JV high schoolers younger kids for them to beat, saying high schoolers are not used to 1.5 periods and that 8th graders actually have the advantage over freshmen don't meet the level of sound reasoning in my opinion.

Doug,

We had a very good turn out for the two day meeting we just had in Salina. There were some who could not make it both days, but out of 25 Council members, attendance was 20 on Saturday and 19 on Sunday.

Ned

Would these changes take effect this year or next, if approved? Our son would fall into the category of being a freshman and able to wrestle in the 14u division this coming year if the rule stays as it is. I am not sure I am against the rule change - because of Jake's weight, he will most likely be wrestling upper classman all season long anyway - so if the rule changes, it would just be a continuation of the high school season.

I have to agree with John Johnson, I don't like excluding Freshman from the 14U division. It basically makes it a one year age group. The only other time I know of kids only wrestling their school year is at Brute. I do like adding the High School Division, positive step. But, if we are going to have an age division of 14U, anyone that is in that age group should be allowed to wrestle in it. I am tired of hearing poor 8th graders have to wrestle Froshmen. Have they not been wrestling these kids every other year since they were 6? Leave 14U the same and add the High School Division. If a froshman wants to wrestle High School they have that option, if not they wrestle their age division.

I agree!
14U should be just that & IF they were a Freshman and wanted to shoot for a 4X State Championship in this then they should be allowed to wrestle the other division!!

Put me down as a parent with a freshman who is still 14u that likes it, but I would agree that I will probably be in the minority of people in that situation.

Doug

This is probably what would get the most support. Give the 14u kids the option of wrestling the high school division, but allow them to wrestle 14u if they choose, freshman or not.

I don't know if I would call 80% and 76% a good turnout. If you volunteered to be an officer, you should attend the meetings. Unless we dumped this meeting on them last minute, but I assume it has been scheduled for a while............

Chief, I noticed you stated that sometimes 7th graders would be wrestling Sophmores in the medal round. The only way I could see this happening would be if the Sophmore jumped ahead in school and the 7th grader was being red shirted. This could not have happened but once or twice. With the age cut offs, they would still only be two years apart.

Another point, if a 15 year old 8th grader has to wrestle High School, because of the age division. Why shouldn't a 14 year old Froshman be able to wrestle his age division?

I also agree. I have never understood the argument that it is unfair for 8th graders to wrestle Freshmen? I can’t possibly see what is unfair about dividing kids up in age divisions of two year increments. Seems pretty logical to me. I think you would have a much stronger argument that it is unfair for a freshmen to wrestle a Senior then an 8th grader wrestling a Freshmen. I like Beesons’ idea , add the High School Division , but if a kid falls in the 14U age group he should be allowed in the 14U age group!(Again as I just typed that last sentence I have to ask, What is unfair about that???). Because the majority of high level freshmen would choose to wrestle the High school division the 14U division would naturally become more competitive for the 8th graders and lower level Freshmen. I would hope that a competitive wrestler, a responsible parent, and a competent coach would choose the High School division over going for another Kids Title!!

I have thought for a long time we should allow all age groups to wrestle up one age group for qualifiers and state.

Steve,

You stated that you would hope that a competitive wrestler, responsible parent and a competent coach would choose the HS division over going for another Kids title. So now we are back to the JV level HS wrestlers supposedly helping themselves by wrestling middle schoolers. There are plenty of seventh graders that have pre 9/1 birthdates and wrestle 14U. I can think of two sophomores in the past that also wrestled 14U. Kansas is in the extreme minority that still has High School wrestlers chasing Kids medals after their season rather than advancing their skills by FS/GR competition or off season HS Folkstyle. It's not a "fair" issue. It's a competitive advancement issue.

I'm always more concerned about who showed up as opposed to how many! But you're right we should always have a hundred percent attendance.

I'm not sure Kansas is the minority, Tulsa Nationals and Reno Worlds, have a 15U division. What about your High School Froshmen that weigh 80-90 lbs.? By not allowing them to wrestle 14U they will be giving up 10-20 lbs. in the High School Division.

Speaking of weights, what will the High School weights be? My suggestion: Keep 100 and 250. For the rest of the weights add 5 lbs to the High School weights plus the weight allowance after certification. This way High School kids will be able to wrestle basically the same weight they did in High School and have a True Grand State Champion.

The wrestlers are still divided into two year age divisions. The label of JV wrestler or Middle school wrestler is irrelevant! The wrestlers still fall into the same two year age division regardless of what grade they happen to be in and enjoy no more of an advantage or disadvantage then any other age division Even if you do perceive an unfair advantage for the freshman surly you understand that in the following year the 8th grad would enjoy the same advantage. And again if you think its not right, how can you accept that 14year olds would be wrestling 18year olds in the High school division? Don’t misunderstand me I like the Idea of a High school division but logically speaking you are on both sides of the fence on this issue. How does a division of wrestlers by two year increments hinder competitive advancement? I think you may be bestowing some power or influence into this issue that just doesn’t exist. You mention the High school kids should be improving their skills with off season folk style practice. Isn’t that exactly what they are doing by participating in the USA Wrestling folkstyle series?? There is plenty of time for the freestyle season and I would like to see evidence that participation in the folkstyle series negatively effects the advancement or participation level of our freestyle wrestlers!By adding the High school division we will actually be increasing the number of “High school wrestlers chasing kids medals” So does this mean you think it’s a positive or a negative change?

Some High School seniors could be 19, so you could have an 8th grader wrestling a 19 year old. Give the option to wrestle 14U or High School if your in the age group, that makes the most sense. As stated before, these kids have been wrestling each other, every other year since they were 6. Why should it change at 14?

Lets not get into a debate about the fairness of 8th vs 9th or 9th vs seniors or anything else for that matter. Lets all join hands and raise our voting cards when asked to pass this CHANGE. The CHANGE has to be ratified “AS IS” for the coming season or it will get sent back to the board for discussion, study and revision that may lead to its death! One thing that cannot be argued is that it gives a greater number of wrestlers the opportunity to compete in the state tournament series. A good measure of the success will be the numbers in the HS division at subs versus the 16U numbers from 2009. Another good measure will be the number of USA Cards sold to those above 16U. I am willing to be big money that you will see a significant increase in both of these numbers.

To me this opens up the door for even more opportunities in the future. USA Wrestling has a Cadet and Junior division at Folkstyle Nationals. We should create these divisions in our state tournament. Lets support the most significant, positive change in years to our state tournament series and see how it works before we pass judgment based on negative speculation. Try it this year and we will get some data to work with.

I voted yes!

Will, I do not believe that this has to be passed as is. Last year we made some changes to the how the coaches would receive passes for the state tournament. As I recall several different ideas were presented before the vote was taken on the ammended change.

Richard would you please clarify for me?

I personally would not vote for it "As Is". It will not take effect until next year if it does pass. I'm just saying 14U should be 14U, they should not have to be forced to the High School division. They should have the option....sound familiar?

It sounds as if it will take effect for THIS upcoming season. Correct me if I am wrong.

Steve,

1. The label of High School and Middle School divisions are certainly not irrelevant. That is precisely why they compete against only themselves the entire season.

2. I do perceive that the high schoolers have a distinct advantage. However that's not the main reason for my position.

3. Undeniably, states that have recognized this reality have moved into the passing lane with their level of freestyle/greco competitiveness. Some of our high schoolers are spending an entire month chasing a kids division medal instead of competing in either a grand state scenario or jumping in on FS/GR.

4. Ask yourself these questions. Why have the top wrestling states in the nation changed from our current format to theirs? Has it contributed to their success? They place higher than us at national events and provide more DI opportunities for their wrestlers. Could it also help us?

We will never know until we try.

Chief, then why have a 15 year old middle school kid wrestle High School? And, Do we really want a 12U division, an 8th grade division, and then a High School Division? The 8th (14U) division would be a one year only division.

Missouri DOES NOT allow HS wrestlers to compete in their Kids State tournament regardless of their age. We are in the process of evaluating all of the kids state tournaments to get more data. We could eliminate this problem if we would move Kids state during high and create a middle school state. Even so at some point age and grade are going to collide and cause a splitting issue.

I will argue until the cows come home that HS wrestlers have a clear advantage over 8th graders. Five day a week practices, full time professional coach, competing against much older competition all year, etc. Of course there are always exceptions like Levi Eck, Ryne, and other successful 8th graders. I would vote to allow them the freedom to move up. I clearly think the some kids who have just gotten introduced to wrestling in MS or JH might take on the Kids Series if they didn't have to wrestle high school wrestlers. If nothing else it will give them an opportunity to qualify for state as the spots will be open.

The solution would be to have Cadets and Juniors so you would basically have 8th, 9th, and 10th in one class and 11th and 12th in the other. We will then have to align with the date of birth being January 1 instead of Sept 1. Of course this will be unpopular for one year as those who are negatively impacted will not like that either.

Chad,
I do agree with your statement about being able to amend it but at this past weekend's meeting I was told we COULD NOT amend it. I think we might have set precedence last year and I hope you are right. If a little tweaking can make it work then lets do it. One thing we CANNOT do is add more wrestlers to the state tournament which this plan does not do.

Leaving 14u the same and adding the High School division will not add wrestlers to the State Tournament either. With the weights I proposed it would actually eliminate some. Why would the birthdate have to go to Jan. 1st? Just out of curiosity.

There are lots of other freshmen that could still wrestle 14u that should wrestle high school, and I know most of them probably will, under this new scenario. Haralson, Johnson, Bradley, just to name a few. I get uncomfortable when someone points out one of my kids when there are lots of others deserving of the same mention, not that you were trying to slight anyone......you know what I'm saying.

Here is the million dollar question: as a club representative, are you going to risk the lashes from parents on your club, if you vote FOR this change? I feel like, though it isn't perfect, it is what is best for most of the kids. A LOT of people will NOT see it that way. Kind of like Pelosi and crew pushing thru their health care bill, when the majority of Americans are opposed to it. Their excuse is that it is for the "common good". I happen to feel like this would be for the common good of KS wrestling, and Pelosi is crazy enough to think the health care plan is for the common good, even though I think it is all about gaining control over more of our lives. There will be lots of people saying the same thing about those of us that vote for this change. I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that it will help KS wrestling in the long haul. The numbers will tell the story. There are lots of kids' state champs that didn't do well in high school, and it may well be because they weren't pushed like this change will do. They worry about kids' state titles instead of high school state titles. Obviously, both means something, but one means more than the other. Just like winning high school state doesn't mean as much as winning NCAA. etc etc.

Cadets and Juniors, By USA definition use the Jan 1 birthdate. In fact, the majority of state and USA events use teh Jan 1 birthdate. There is NO WAY we want to create the confusion of having the age groups with the same name but a different date range. We already have enough issues with our Sept 1 as of date when going to other tournaments.

I agree with your assessment on the number of participants.

I would also support, and get a lot of parents mad, changing to the USA weights. We would see more good matches if we narrowed down the number of weight classes. Why did I bring this up? Fire away.............

I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia

All four of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets.

And how many allow kids from their border states to enter their own State Tournament?

Just wondering.

Another topic for another day.

Don't know that or the price of their nachos at the tournament.

I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia
Illinois

All five of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets

Chief, out of curiosity, how many of these states have a Cadet division and a Junior division? I have a hard time believing these states, two of which are not impressive nationally, have an 8th grade division only.

I'm not sure if they have a 15U, 7th/8th grade or what. They do not allow High School wrestlers to participate in the Kids state tournament. To be clear, ours would NOT be an 8th grade only either. There are many 7th graders in the 14U brackets.

Two of these states are very impressive nationally.

Beeson,

To answer your question on changes to this.

This was sent to me as a by-law change and has to be voted on as is. If it is changed it can not go in to effect this year or it can be sent back to the drawing board.

Coaches Passes or not changes to the by-laws. They are voted on every year for the upcoming State Tournament.

This is a great topic and a great reason for everyone to come to te State Body meeting on 11/1 in Salina.

Ned

Ned,

Thanks for clarifying. I do have a couple of more questions. If this was sent in as a by-law change, did it have to be approved as it was sent in? Could it have been discussed by the board and sent in ammended by them? If this passes, how difficult would it be to ammend it for the following year?

My problem is I see the High School part as a positive and the 14U as a negative. If the 14U could be ammended next year I could possibly vote in favor for this. If it will be difficult to even discuss changing, I will vote no.

You will vote no because you think the 14U will be for 8th graders only? Have you seen how many 7th graders that are too old for 12U and wrestle 14U? I would say there are hardly any 8th graders that are too old for 14U that would be forced to wrestle in the HS division. Is that your position?

Let me start off by stating this rule change would affect my son. That said, I would have to agree with Cokeley, if Kansas wants to add a high school division to KIDS state, we should go with Junior and Cadet divisions. The development gap physically between freshman and seniors is to great, there will be very few freshmen that will even qualify for state if we go this route. I understand that a lot of people out there want to see the great match-ups that could happen, but not a lot of those great match-ups would involve freshman anyway. So add a 18U take away 16U but I feel we should leave 14U the way it is.


Something I have never understood is why we dont use the same age and weight classifications as USA wrestling?

Beeson is completey correct as far as I am concerned. Also, with no disrespect meant Chief (you do alot for wrestling in Kansas from what I see), what is your point on other states not allowing High Schoolers at their kids state?? I know MO doesn't. I have no desire to copy them. They do not even allow HS kids to compete at all in their federation tournaments. I disagree. I love having the HS kids come to kids practices after their season is over. They really improve the intensitity in the practice room. It really improves the work ethic of the other kids. I think your point is few others allow HS kids to wrestle JH kids. I think that is a valid point, I just do not see a reason to copy it. I really believe a quality kids club can get an 8th grader in better position to compete then an average High School program can due to the restrictions placed on them by Will's good friends.

Another problem I see is the lighter HS kids. I assume the weights will be the same as High School. Kids state has always offerred the 85, 90, and 95 lbs HS Freshmen an opportunity to compete for a state title where they are not out weighted by 15 or 20 lbs. We will have one at our High School that right now weighs 85lbs with his clothes on. At kids state he has a real chance to compete without just being overpowered.

I really think Will is on to something with the Cadet/Juniors comment. What if we changed our age groups to match USA. Makes a whole lot of sense, will get you your Middle School championship.

Finally, it appears the change has been made for this year and we will all live with it. In the long run (probably with a few changes) it will be very positive for Kansas wrestling. I can see a time in the future where a Kids championship from the High School division is worth more than one of the 4 HS state championships.

Chief,
I can think of a few freshman that will be forced to wrestle high school division that wont be 15 until next summer, are you really going to tell them that they have to wrestle an 18 or 19 year old at KIDS state?

John,

No offense taken with your position. The discussion is all good. My point with the comparison of top wrestling states is not to solely follow them lock step, but to at least consider why they have come to their conclusion. Is it better for our state? Does it help or hurt our High School state champions that they follow up their season by beating 7th and 8th graders for a month? As to your point about comparing a kids club program to a High School one, there is no way that the kids club can match the intensity of the high schools wrestling 6 days a week with 15-18 year olds. There is some validity to your lighter weight class problem. As many 103 matches that are forfeited though, makes me think those kids are in the extreme minority. I also agree with the cadet/junior idea.

Remember these changes are just up for approval. They live or die with the state body vote.

Ed,

They are freshmen. They are no longer KIDS wrestlers. They wrestle in the HS division just like they will have all year. Right?

Here is my problem, I don't think there are that many 7th graders in the 14 and under division. If so I think that it is because they have July or August birthdays and were held back in school. I basically see the 7th graders being the Top Dogs in 12U and then the very next year being the Top Dogs in 14U. Since half of the 14U kids that have been in their age division can not wrestle now because they are Froshmen. This really waters down this division. The "8th Grade" Division bothers me alot.

In every sport, except wrestling, there is a Froshman Team, a JV, and a Varsity. There is a reason for that. Very few Froshman can compete mentally or physically with Juniors and Seniors. Wrestling is a special sport where a minority of Froshman can do very well, but the majority can not. This is why I think there should be an option. Those who can compete, do it. Those who can not, stay in 14U.

Another problem I have that I would like to be able to change: Weight Classes. If we are doing this to have a Grand State, make the weights the same as the High School. 103 would be, 103 plus 2 pounds for certification, then add 5 pounds = 110. Do this with all the weights. I would think that everyone would be able to wrestle the weight they did in High School if the weights were done in this manner. We could keep the 100 pound weight class and possibly a weight around 245.

These are some of the things that would need to be discussed for possible change next year for me to vote yes. I truly want what will improve our sport, I don't think making 14 year olds wrestle 18 year olds will do this. I don't think watering down a division will do this. And I do not think having too many weights in the High School division will do this either.

I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia
Illinois
Oklahoma
Iowa

All seven of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets

Oklahoma has a 15 year division, I would assume this means they allow High School kids to wrestle at their state tourney. This could also be that they have Jr Highs in Ok. 8th, 9th, and 10th are together and 11th and 12th together. Possibly 11th and 12th are considered High School and this is what they mean by High Schoolers are not allowed.

1. There are many more 7th graders that are 14U than you think. The freshman have competed all year long in their respective rooms and many freshmen contribute greatly to their teams.

2. The weight class change to the HS division is a great point!

3. Are we MAKING a 14 year old freshman wrestle 18 year olds? They are freshman in High School. That's what high school freshmen do all year long.

Per Archie Randall, High School wrestlers do not wrestle 8th graders. Their state tournament is the same time as High School, so they couldn't even if they wanted to.

Sorry Chief, I made a change while you were responding. I know when I was wrestling at UCO, 9th graders were not considered High Schoolers. We will just have to agree to disagree on 9th graders being on the same playing field as Juniors and Seniors.

I too would support this change if 14u remained the same, and the kids are given the choice to compete in the h.s. division.

I don't support the jr./ cadet idea. When we start our kids in school, we don't use a Jan 1 cut off, it's Aug/September. I think we should stay consistant with how we enroll our kids....imo.

No problem. I appreciate the discussion. This is a great subject. You really do have to at least consider why virtually every other state disagrees with you. (At least it's 7-0 so far). They didn't just flip a coin. They decided it was better for their state's development.

I do however, agree with the point about allowing an 8th grader the choice of wrestling up in the HS division. Just not HS wrestlers moving back down to Kids.

Chief,
Yes, they wrestle other 14 and 15 year olds on JV, there are very few Reece Conklins. Most freshmen on varsity get tore up all year long and now the powers that be would take away their prize for working hard all year and getting better. My son was a 14U 8th grader last year at 165 and worked hard to finish 2nd, beating freshmen along the way, taking that away waters it down so much as to be almost meaningless. We went to tourny after tourny last year with no more than 2 or 3 kids for him to wrestle, even at salina he had only 2 guys in his bracket that he pinned in the 1st period.

I would be interested in how many do not consider 9th graders High School. I am pretty sure Wes Harding's son is a 9th grader or at least in the 15U division. I will give him a call tomorrow and find out how they view 9th graders.

Ed,

High School varsity rosters have many freshmen in them. I would not call it a prize to wrestle High School all year and then drop down to a Kids division tournament to wrestle 7th and 8th graders. The upper weight participation in Kids is the issue, not filling that gap with high school wrestlers.

By the way, there were 80 Freshmen State Qualifiers in 4A/5A/6A last year!

Chief,
Wrestling for a kids title is so much harder than a high school title as it stands because anyone can enter, where in high school they only wrestle kids from other schools the same size not everyone in the state. I understand why a high school division is needed, that will be the most prized title, there is a very high probability that NO freshman will EVER win the high school division title. Let them have another year with other kids their own age and skill level. I am not arguing against a high school division, I am arguing against freshmen being in that division.

Chief,
How many of those 80 qualifiers last year were lighter than 125lbs? How many of them placed? How many would have qualified/placed in a high school division that included all high schools?

23 out of the 80 placed! You were only allowed one question.

Chief,
Awesome answer, I just dont believe that freshmen would be competitive in a division with all the upperclassmen in the state included.

I believe that 14&under should stay just as it is. I agree we DO need a highschool group, But it really should be 15 and up. The one year really makes a world of difference in maturity of these young men. And of course yes I DO have a 14yr old freshman. Am I apprehensive about this years wrestling season? You bet! This may be the hardest competition he has encountered. But at the end of wrestling HS these boys look forward to a more level playing field. I am afraid that making these boys wrestle HS all the way through may cause Kids State attendance to fall due to discouraged Freshmen & Sophomores. Then again I may be wrong...

6A- 8 freshmen placed none over 152
5A- 6 freshmen placed none over 125, 4 at 103lbs
4A- 8 freshmen placed none over 145, 5 at 103lbs

So.. 22 freshmen placed with 12 placers at 103 and only 6 placer over 130

Why would we put freshmen in an all kansas high school division, with very, very few exceptions they would not be able to compete?

Here is my question, how do we verify whether a kid is an 8th grader or freshman the day of a qualifier or anytime thereafter? We have a mechanism for verifying dates of birth but what about grades? Most of us will know the studs in each division and it won't be a problem for them. Instead it will be some kid that nobody has ever heard of, from a school/town that nobody has ever heard of. Then you throw in the homeschooled kids, who's to say what grade they are in?

Nine freshmen placed in 6A last year. You missed the 160 guy from WSE. We put them in the high school division because they are high schoolers!

So we scrap the whole idea because somebody may cheat? The mechanism to check DOB is a birth certificate. (Which is not required by the way). A grade card or school I.D. might be a good start.

If 12 freshman placed at 103, just in 4A, 5A, and 6A, add them all together and the most that can place is 6. That is if they beat all of the Sophs, Jrs, and Srs. My guess is that instead of 22, 5 would place putting all of the classes together.

At some point in time, the top wrestling states in the nation recognized the positive impact and made the clear distinction a rule. Any time a change like this is made, the kids that are affected feel excluded. Think of how the kids would react in Illinois if they suddenly said that high school wrestlers could now enter their kids state? A kids last shot at a kids title should be his last year in kids wrestling. Not his first year in high school.

It's up for vote by the state body. It could go either way. I just hope that we see the bigger picture instead of coveting a medal that we failed to win while we were in middle school.

(So far it's 7-0 in favor of a seperate HS division. I will keep you updated.)

Gary Wayne is an 8th grader this year, but the same age as Levi, which is the old side of 14u.

One thing to point out is that many of the states that you mention have a very LARGE percentage of kids that are held back, possibly to circumvent this rule? There are kids that are a year older than my son, that are a grade BEHIND him in school.

I am waiting for feedback from my club before I say for sure how I'll vote, but I agree with it in the long run will push kids to be better wrestlers. I think it will be passed easily if you give the option of letting a freshman wrestle 14u, OR the HS division. I think it would police itself, because if I see a freshman that should be in the HS division, sandbaggin and wrestling 14u, I'll call him out. Someone mentioned Reece Conklin, if this rule were in place when he were a freshman, and he chose to wrestle 14u, lots of people would have raised a stink. Reece would not have done that, just using him as an example.

Eric,

I saw your comment, as follows:
You should probably check Article III of the Kids' Bylaws, which does currently require each club to verify the birthdates of their wrestlers:

Ok, just a couple of changes. I would say it is more like 5-2. Illinois does not allow High School wrestlers. But their age divisions are basically school divisions. 8U can not wrestle in the State Tournament either. It is 3rd, 4th, 5th graders, with 2nd graders that are 8 having the option to wrestle up. 6th, 7th, 8th, with 10 years old 5th graders having the option to wrestle up. Not the same set up we have at all.

Oklahoma goes strictly by birthday. If you are a sophmore and are 16 after September 1st you can wrestle in the 15U kids division.

I have not checked but I would bet that NONE of these states have a High School Division. So basically we are comparing apples to oranges.

I say we keep 14U the same, add the High School, and give 14 year old Freshmen the option.

Thanks Mike, I didn't want to be the one to drop the hammer on him. That Constitution and the Bylaws can be so pesky for some to read for some reason! But yet they come on here and are experts on how they should be changed.

Thanks Mike. I know our state has had problems in the past with verifying ages! Just for clarity, that rule is not a USAW rule and is a NEWLY adopted rule by Kansas. Last year was the first year, right Mike? Additionally, my guess would be below 10% of all clubs actually asked for birth certificates.

Sportsfan, your hammer is a pillow, so go ahead.

It is now 8-0. Indiana replied that at no time do they allow High School wrestlers to compete against MS.

Chad, Those 15U you are talking about in OK are wrestlers that are NOT competing at the HS state tournament. They are held at the same time, so the varsity HS wrestlers are not competing against 7th and 8th graders like they do in Kansas.

Missouri
Nebraska
Illinois
Wisconsin
Georgia
Iowa
Oklahoma
Indiana

8-0

I still believe you are inferring to much influence this issue will have on “Putting Kansas on the National Stage!” By using evidence that I see with my own two eyes and not speculation, I do not see this changing freestyle participation! The vast majority of High school kids that continue into the folkstyle season do so to improve their skills for the next high school season and to compete.(which we can all agree is a worth while use of their time.) I think the phrase “Chasing kids medals” is unfair , I see nothing wrong with a kid wanting to compete and improve his skills, do you? However after the folkstyle series I only see a few of these high school kids continuing into freestyle. Is this lack of participation caused by the folkstyle series? I don’t think so. Lets not forget that kids state is at the end of March and the end of the freestyle season(Fargo) is the end of July. Just how long of a freestyle season do these kids need or more importantly how much will the majority of them want to handle!! I am almost certain there are no freestyle tournaments in Missouri during the time of our folkstyle series.(correct me if I’m wrong) Yes everyone wants to see Kansas do well nationally and a greater effort put into recruiting kids for the freestyle season would be a good start. I just can’t understand how you believe that not allowing kids that want to continue their folkstyle practicing and competing will hurt Kansas Wrestling.

Just because the school system makes a division between 8th grade and freshmen does not make the division of wrestlers by two year increments used by Kansas Wrestling inherently wrong or unfair. I know I’m repeating my shelf but the maturity level between an 8th grader and a freshmen is not nearly as great as the difference between a 14 year old and an 18 year old. I will concede a freshmen may have an advantage over an 8th grader because he has been in a high school practice room. But hey that’s life its not always easy and sometimes we come out on the losing end, life lesson learned. But guess what next year I will be top dog! Beeson touched on the fact that the school system actually divides kids up into smaller divisions then Kansas wrestling! They have separate 7th, 8th, 9th, JV.and Varsity teams. Supposedly qualified coaches determine if a kid can move up and compete at a higher level. I realize this may not be a fair comparison to wrestling simply because of the low number of kids wrestling . but the fact remains even in wrestling there is a dividing line between JV and Varsity wrestlers that this proposal does not allow for. The Cadet, Junior division would for the most part ,resolve that problem but it would also prevent a true grand state scenario from taking place! It seems to me the lesser of two evils would be to give the freshmen the option of wrestling in the 14U division if they qualify.

I am still a little confused as to what you want to happen? Do you support this proposal or do you want to completely eliminate High school kids from Kansas folkstyle wrestling? I am reading both!

Here is the direct answer from Illinois. I have the others if you want to see them.

"Our State Tournament is for 4th through 8th grade. We also have an intermediate state championships but it’s not part of our state series. Our state series includes regionals, sectionals, and the state tournament. High school wrestlers are not allowed to compete in IKWF Folkstyle events."



Sincerely,

Mike Urwin

Secretary/Treasurer - IKWF

Steve,

1. I support the proposal.

2. I am in favor of a HS folkstyle division.

3. I do not believe that a high school state champion is furthering his skills by wrestling 7th and 8th graders after winning a high school title.

4. I believe that the most effective way for high school wrestlers to further their skills is to extend their folkstyle season in the "grand state" style HS division OR get right to work on the FS/GR styles. It is certainly not better for them to "dial down" the competition with MS kids.

Do you have an answer as to why every state that has answered my e-mails so far feels the same way I do? Is your position helping or hurting our development?

My point is there is no High School Division. No 16U division. Once you pass the 8th grade you can not wrestle, which is not the same as Kansas is at the time. Oklahoma does allow High School wrestlers in the kids division, even though they may be JV they can wrestle.

Just talked to Iowa...Kids wrestling stops after 8th grade. Georgia, Missouri, stop after 8th Grade.

Colorado and Nebraska look like they go with Cadets and Jr.

New Mexico and Oklahoma go by age division only.

Colorado actually has a Freshman/Sophmore state.

I don't see how you can compare states that stop wrestling after the 8th grade to states that continue wrestling to 16U.

Not one of the States is proposing what Kansas is, by having a High School Division. Does that mean we should not have the High School Division, because none of the other states do? No, we make adjustments to our situation. If we want this to pass, 14U High School KIDS, should be given the option.

Notice how you went from a JV wrestler, wrestling 7th and 8th graders to HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMPIONS wrestling 7th and 8th graders. Let's not make this into more than it is. The State Champions, I'm sure would wrestle High School. Your Freshmen and JV would be the ones staying in the 14U division. Which IS their AGE GROUP.

I am not making it more than it is. That is exactly how it is NOW! Your age group criteria falls well below the HS/MS criteria in my mind as well as EVERY STATE that I've mentioned. Why do you disagree with every one of those state bodies? Are they doing things wrong or right?

I spoke directly with Oklahoma, who you stated was against High School kids wrestling 8th graders and they were in direct opposition to what you stated.

My opinion would be that they are doing things wrong if wrestling stops at 8th Grade.

How ironic! My Sophmore and I were just discussing something like this just today! It had to do with HS classifications, but it was along the same lines. I have 4 wrestlers in my house, and I am here to tell you that my senior would love to have another year in USA Folksytle, but given the current rules, he can't. My Sophmore, as a Freshman qualified for HS state, and told me today that he liked the challenge of wrestling bigger kids from bigger schools in Kids wrestling. In my opinion, given a choice many of the 14U Freshmen would accept the challenge of wrestling at a HS Level for the Kids program, because most them are going to tell you it is HOW they get BETTER! I also know of a few Seniors that would like the opportunity to extend their Folkstyle season, and not just my son. I also agree that the 14U Freshman wrestle up all HS season, whether it is in the practice room or tournament situations. I for one, will be voting for this change at the meeting.

Sandy Hayes

Actually, some of the toughest HS states already have something like we are proposing. The proposed HS division would be a type of grand state scenario. California has ONE State tournament. We have four.

You want to give the wrestlers an option to MOVE DOWN and NOT UP?

The one High School State Champion is through the HIGH SCHOOL, not KIDS. You act like giving a freshman or first year wrestler the option to wrestle their age group is a bad thing. Do you really think that every freshman is a State Champion, ripped up and ready to wrestle the best in the State. Some will be able to wrestle up others will not. I guarantee some of your freshmen will not make it to state in the 14U division. With allowing all High School wrestlers to participate, most 14U freshmen wrestlers wont even make it out of their subs.

And I'm not giving them the option to wrestle down. They will be required to wrestle 14U, they have the option to move up.

Oklahoma has a High School State tournament and a Junior High State Tournament. They are held on the same weekend. You are talking about 9th graders in Oklahoma that are in a 7/8/9 Junior High?

No, 9th, 10th, 11th, or 12th graders can wrestle in the 15U kids division, as long as they meet the age requirements.

Are you sure its not a case of you agreeing with them and not them agreeing with you? Sometimes different means different , not better! Are you suggesting that if for the last 5 years we would of not allowed freshmen, that fall into the 14U age division, to wrestle in our folk style tournament, that our freestyle results would have been significantly different!! Sorry, I don’t see the cause and effect. Therefore, I don’t believe my stance, or yours, on this issue is having any effect on the development of Kansas wrestlers as it relates to the "National Stage"

There is where we disagree Steve. We will never know until we try. I wonder how Illinois would react if they announced that High School wrestlers were now allowed to enter Junior High State, because they think it will help their development like you do.

First of all who cares what they would think. It would be change for them, it is not change for us. The fact you KEEP ommitting is they can not wrestle after 8th grade. It is not an option.

Chief,
Just so I understand correctly, its better to have a 14 year old freshman wrestle a 19 year old senior than a 13 year old 7th grader wrestle a 15 year old freshman?

We could even put in the bylaws that if a 14U wrestler qualified for high school state they would be required to wrestle in the high school division, just like we do for novices that qualify for kids state their first year, they have to wrestle open their second year not novice.

All 14 year old freshman have wrestled against juniors and seniors the entire high school season, what is the difference between high school and kids state

Diffence is: High School State has 4 different divisions, Kids State would be one division. High School State is High School only, Kids State has kids as young as 5 wrestling, High School State includes 4 grade levels, Kids divides the groups up by age groups of two years. High School State is in February, Kids is in March. High School only 1 Varsity wrestler from each school can compete at each weight, Kids as many kids that want to can sign up and wrestle at a weight. These are just a few of the differences....I'm sure there are more....any other differences?

you also have multipule state champs for each weight in high school 1a 2a 3a 4a 5a 6a

Again, in 4, 5, 6a there was 5 freshmen that placed at 130 or heavier last year, would any of them even made it to kids state if there was 1 high school division? I think not. What is so wrong with them being in 14U? Because 13 year old kids they have wrestled their whole lives would be in the same division? I believe that only 1 of the 5 won a 14U kids state title.

Beeson no need to be an a@@, I was just stating an opinion and You know what I was getting at by my post. It is no different for a 14 year old freshman to wrestle a 18 year old senior in high school or kids club. These kids practice and wrestle against seniors the entire high school season.

Tom Baughman

ed ,i have a hard time believing there would be many 19 yr old seniors.
leave 14 under the way it is and if a freshman happens to fall into that age range then so be itlet them either wre4stle there age group or move up if they so choose. then add a high school division for all other high school kids

John,
There probably wouldnt be very many 19 year old seniors, extreme example. Sorry. I second your motion, it is a simple solution for a complicated problem.

Chief,

First of all, you made some sort of comment of why do we not follow the other states as they have found the right way to impove their state's wrestling. Did you ever consider that we are the state breaking new ground. That we are the ones ahead of the curve. That we got it right!! You know it is a flaw in logic to say just because everyone else does it that way, we should. Don't you remember you mon making that comment about if everyone is jumping off a bridge, would you. In other words, I do not care what others are doing. Prove they are right first, then tell me about it. I know my son benefited from wrestling against HS kids - do not take that away from the new 8th graders coming in.

Second, you talk about a state champion wrestling 8th graders (and please keep it at 8th graders) at kids state. I can think of one. But, will you also research how many 8th graders won first over High School kids.

Remember the main reason for federation wrestling in Kansas is to prepare kids for high school, not give the fans high profile matches to watch. The current system gives junior varisity and low weight kids a reason to continue their season. The changes you advocate will change that. Leave the 14U alone. Allow Freshmen to choose and add a High School division.

Overall this is position, I would vote for it, but then try to change it. And, we really need to look into using USA age group. You kind of lose your grand state, unless you allow kids to choose to go up.

Finally, Sports Fan, why even comment if you are not going to add something of value to the discussion. For the most part, this has been an excellent thread where people are exchanging opinions and debating a topic in a civilized manner we are not really use to.

Tom,
Its not about practicing with upperclassmen, most freshmen look forward to kids state as their time to shine, this will take that away from them. Also as the high school division grows there will be fewer freshmen even attempt kids state with a few exceptions like Harrelson or Conklin, what we will end up with is an 8th grade (14U) division and a 11th-12th grade (HS) dominated division with nothing in between. How does this help our sport grow?

Tom,

Of course I know what you were getting at, and as anyone who knows me can attest, I can be an A$$. It was all in fun so settle down.

Chad

Man....

You guys are weak. Admit this: Everybody understands that it's pretty strange that our middle school kids wrestle all year long and at the qualifying series a flood of high school wrestlers come in and grab the top seeds. Your only out is that next year, YOU will be that high school guy who gets the top seed. You are talking about "their time to shine". If we make this change, "their time to shine" is a year earlier! We are NOT breaking any new ground. We are stuck in this "feel good" atmosphere that covets kids state medals instead of taking the awesome talent that we have and diving in head first against the nations best. Every single year we have this empty feeling that we "could have" placed much better "had we done this or that" with our national dual teams. That is where the prize is people. Not always looking back and reaching for hollow victories because you have the upper hand.

I can tell you this. If Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are excelling on the national stage. I want in. I want to take our Kansas studs and show them the heart we have. We have the talent. Let's dream big instead of longing for that big advantage so that we can really rip our 7th and 8th graders a new one.

This change is progressive, not regressive. Let's get this grand state party started! If this proposal fails, the shame is on you.

"We are weak" Good opening statement. If someone disagrees with you they are weak? Chief, unfortunately I expected more from you when the conversation is not going your way.

I will Admit nothing, because I do not feel it is strange.

If this fails, shame on the fact that it can not be ammended to read like the majority would like. I have seen how quickly change comes. I would not feel comfortable voting for this, hoping that we will change it the following year.

Obviously I feel that the opposite of my position is weak. Otherwise I would hold your position. Correct?

No, you did not state the position as being weak. You stated the "guys" as being weak. There is a difference. Your position can not be too strong, since the states you are using as examples, DO NOT ALLOW STATE WRESTLING IN KIDS AFTER 8th GRADE. This is exactly what you are wanting....the opposite of these states. I am happy to see you have now excluded Oklahoma.

The states that I am using as examples DO NOT ALLOW HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLERS to compete against their MIDDLE SCHOOL WRESTLERS at their state tournament. This proposal ensures that with the High School division. I am for that.

Why are you confused?

Chief, those states have alot more people - anything else. If you want what you are talking about, go with this proposal for this year, but pledge to go with the USA age groups (with cadets having the option to go up) for next year. I have always believed this is the way to go. Kids state should just be a stepping stone for USA nationals - if your can afford to go.

First of all why do we have to do exactly like these other states. I am confused because I see you comparing apples to oranges. How do you compare a state that does not allow kids wrestling past the 8th grade to one that does. Forget the fact that they don't allow Middle School and High School to wrestle each other, because they do not allow High School to wrestle at all. If you want to be like Illinois, Wiconsin, Penn. and others, lets get rid of 16U and make 8th grade the last year a kid can wrestle kids.

ok guys- everybody has a side, but why not get crazy and let my 5th grader compete with an eighth grader. He practices all year with them really, and think how much better that might make him to extend his season in competition with them. Hot Damn! Great for the stars, not always so great for growth or encouragement. We want to expand the sport not JUST make the great better.

Maybe we could try opening a highschool grand (fabulous for the sport and state/Kansas use to have one), allow 14yr old to wrestle up if they choose(for the star pupils),give this idea a year and see how the freshmen choose to compete (the few hs state placers will probably choose the hs level which is what I understand many want to see the BIG matches), then work on tweeking it. Though being called weak may already have changed what peer pressure will allow.

Kids state does not have to be thought as lesser-it is not. Exspecially if the thought is to add a Higher HS level. On one hand it is so great to have a grand tourney, but on the other it is only a lesser title to win at KIDS STATE. Which one is it?

Let's design a program that is progressive for the majority, not just the few. Just a thought!

As I have stated before, I support the change. It actually gives more opportunities for Kansas wrestlers to continue wrestling! I believe that it should be passed and then the option of letting the 14U freshmen wrestle their age division or the High school division should be explored . My problem is with the false assumption that this issue is the reason Kansas wrestling is falling behind or being held back! Throwing catch phrases out that claim this proposal will, “put Kansas on the national stage” without a shred of evidence to support it is what I consider, “ Weak”. What are you chief a politician or a used car salesman? And no, “Because they do it.” is not evidence kids that fall into a two year age division that happens to include 8th graders and freshmen are hindering the advancement of Kansas wrestling.

Agree except maybe we should explore first

Steve is right, pass it, then fix it, even if it takes a year. Enough said.

Why not fix it then pass it?

I agree with Pelland. Get it the way the majority want it and then approve it. Don't be rushed or forced into a decision.

Ned, Is there no way that the board can have a web meeting or something similar to ammend this before it is brought before the body?

I guess you could change 16U to 18u. That would mean scrapping this year's proposal. Don't hear a lot of 16u fighting to keep that age group. We could allow 14u wrestlers to wrestle up if they choose, and we would still get see some of the "grand state" type matches we want to see. Just a humble thought.

I have to assume you are speaking to me even though you weren't capable of getting my screename correct. Not sure if that makes your opinions more or less valid. How nice of you to decide if my opinions were of value. I simply asked a question which Chief couldn't answer and in the process proved he knows even less about the Constitution and Bylaws of USAWKS.
I am not sure if I support this proposal as yet but I too like hearing the debate. This much I am pretty certain of, anyone who thinks this proposal or any other, will create a grand state or increase overall participation, is being silly.

This is great conversation! I'm glad you guys liked my "weak" comment. I didn't mean you were sorry people, just that your position was sorry,(with all due respect). I could be persuaded to like Steve's idea about giving the 14U freshmen the option of wrestling the age group or HS division. This window should obviously be intended for JV level freshmen. It would be positive to allow the 8th graders to move up to the HS division if they choose.

Steve, "Because they do it" is not my entire closing argument. I firmly believe this proposal would enhance our competition and strengthen Kansas wrestling!

If we are unable to fix it then pass it, we need to pass it then fix it!

I can finally say, I agree with you 100% on both of these options.

This is what I having been trying to say, apperently I need to work on my communication skills. I also believe that we should add to it that any f14Uthat qualifeis for high school state be required to be in the high school division.

I'm not totally disagreeing with some of your points, but let's not make this into giving a kid a free pass to state. The idea should be making kids compete against kids their own ability or better. Getting beat isn't a bad thing a lot of times........

Kumbaya.....................

I am for this. Now, with that said, how will Subs be ran? There is the possibility of having 32 and 64 man brackets at Subs in the High School Division. This is a great problem to have. How do we handle it though? I would think a sub would have to have 4 full mats, just for the High School Division. The High School would be wrestled on Full Mats? Correct. Like I said, I am FOR this, I just want the Subs prepared.

lets pass this proposal then. It would be good for kansas wrestling

The proposal, as stated, may not be perfect for everyone but we will never find one that is. However, it is a step in the right direction. There is NO ARGUMENT that it will give an OPPORTUNITY for more to wrestle. We will never know how many will take advantage of this opportunity until we allow them a chance.

Our state tournament is at capacity but our sub districts are not. Too many brackets are not full and wrestling is not even needed to see who qualifies for Districts. This will hopefully have an impact. I would love to see some 32 man brackets at Subs but I seriously doubt that happens. If we double our number of 17-19 year olds we will only add roughly 15 total wrestlers to each sub. I am hoping that this plan will add 50 wrestlers to each tournament but that still won't force the use of a 32 man brackt.

Where does this all eventually need to go?

Two month 6U and Novice season 12/15-2/15 capped by a 6U & Novice state series. All that would be needed are a one day district and one day state tournament conducted on Sundays. It would be an OFFICIAL USA Kansas State Tournament. AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THOSE WHO NOW DON'T HAVE A STATE TOURNAMENT. If they choose to they can move on to the open series. The State Tournament should be held in a centralized location that allows travel home to any part of the state during reasonable hours, not driving all night.

CADET and JUNIOR STATE...Districts the weekend after HS State followed by a state tournament the next weekend. Top six get their entry fee to USA Folkstyle Nationals paid. Same awards and format as it would be USAWKS SANCTIONED and an OFFICIAL State tournament. Cadets WOULD be allowed to participate as Juniors but not both. This will be as close as we will ever get to a grand state. Some SUPER AWARDS could be created to entice Seniors and those who wouldn't normally put their status on the line to participate.

KIDS STATE... 8,10,12, & 14 state or it could be modified to age groupings and MIDDLE SCHOOL. Same format as today's state tournament but it will be a smaller event allowing it to be more mobile. I still feel the season needs to shortened so we don't have conflict with many, mnay national events such as USA Middle School National Duals. However, given our shortage of officials, venues, and volunteers it might be difficult to pull off unless Sundays are utilized.

These are not radical ideas. They are a progression to giving EVERY Kansas USA Card buyer the chance to compete for a USA State Folkstyle title. This OPPORTUNITY does NOT exist today. It will promote wrestling and increase our membership. It will, hopefully, capture more interest in moving on to Freestyle and Greco wrestling (Honestly, the best thing for these two styles would be the relaxation of the KSHSAA offseason coaching restriction. MANY, MANY HS wrestlers would go to their room if their HS coach were allowed to work with them in the spring on FS and GR wrestling.)

These ideas are ALL about growing our sport. We should not beat each other up for creating more opportunities.

Will, I think that makes a lot of sense as to where you are suggesting things need to go.

I think you will get some post season high school senior participation from those seniors planning to wrestle in college. You will probably get little post season high school senior participation from those seniors not plannning on wrestling in college.

I really agree with your comment that the best thing that could happen for freestyle and greco participation in Kansas would be for the relaxation of the KSHSAA offseason coaching restriction during the school year. You are correct that this one change could do wonders for getting more high school wrestlers into the Olympic styles after the folkstyle season. To me this is the change we should focus first on the KSHSAA changing. In my opinion it should be a relatively easy change to get the KSHSAA to agree to. I think it could be sold to the KSHSAA as the coaches teaching their athletes a different sport since in reality the Olympic styles are very different from folkstyle. I would equate it to just about the same difference as a high school coach working with a cross country runner and a two mile track runner in the same school year.

Having just gone thru 12 years of Kansas youth and high school wrestling with my son, I would say that I would like to see a stronger emphasis on the freestyle and greco in Kansas wrestling. As I think of all the great wrestlers that I have seen over these 12 years one observation that I have made is that in general the wrestlers who ultimately achieve the most thru both high school and college are the ones who wrestled the Olympic styles in the spring and summer as youth and high school wrestlers. I believe anything that can be done to encourage more Olympic style participation for our youth and high school wrestlers will be a benefit both for them and Kansas wrestling in general. I would recommend any young wrestler to participate in freestyle and greco if their desire is to reach their full potential in wrestling.

Back to the 1st part of this thread...
Is there an attendence taken of the reps that attend (or do not attend) the state body meeting?
Where would we find that info and the minutes of that meeting?

BLT,

The Minutes have not been sent back to me yet. I hope to have them in the next week.

Attendance is as follows:

Director - Ned Price Both Days
Asst. Director = Tom Richards Both Days
Treasurer - Leanna Buckley Both Days
Secretary - Stephanie McDonald Both Days
Parliamentarian - Richard Salyer Sunday Only
Freestyle/Greco Director - Kyle Roberts Saturday only
Officals Rep - Denny Hensley Sunday Only
D1 Director - Tuff Hermreck Both Days
Asst D1 - Mark Stanley Both Days
Asst D1 - Will Cokeley Both Days
D1 Freestyle - Tom Peterman Both Days
D2 Director - Jess Keith Both Days
Asst. Director D2 Kenny Taylor Did not attend
Asst. Director D2 - Scott Biddle Did not Attend
D2 Freestlye - Charlie Knox Sunday only
D3 Director Lance Engel Both Days
D3 asst Director - Micheal Brownell Both Days
D3 Asst. Director - Darrel Loder Sunday Only
D3 Freestyle James Cook - Both Days
D4 Director Steve Woody - Both Days
D4 Asst Director Scott Edwards Both days
D4 asst Director -Kyle Wright did not attend
d4 Freestyle Kent Hahn - Sunday Only
State Chairman - Mike Juby Both Days

Ned

I forgot District 4 Joe Arellano both days.

Sorry

Ned

A few observations/questions:
Nice turnout from D1!
Why does D4 have more reps then everyone else?
Does D3 have a 2nd Assistant like everyone else?
What a poor turnout from D2!

How exactly will this proposal read when brought before the state? Also, I have read through the Constitution and can not find where it states that this can not be ammended. Would someone please let me know where it is found. Thanks in Advance.

Richard Salyer is the parliamentarian so he would be the best source for providing this. At the meeting he stated that we could NOT ammend the suggested rule change. The past couple of years we have changed the coach's pass rule on the fly at the state body meeting for the present season. Perhaps there is some distinction between a rule and a bylaw change. Richard?

Chad, good question. I couldn't find the verbiage in the bylaws where a proposed amendment can't be amended at the state body meeting either. The way I read it, only the original request needs to follow the time frame outlined in the bylaws. I can understand enforcing this on "rules which directly impact ations of the mat official during competition" given the officials meeting is prior to the state body meeting but should we have a good proposal and it just needs tweaked at the meeting, why postpone it for a year? That makes no sense to me!

Will, I believe the reason for the allowed amendments on the issue regarding coaching passes is the fact that this issue isn't a bylaw change and therefore falls outside the "preceived" rules.

I would leave the constitutionality of it to Mr. Salyer but my guess is, if allowed to be amended, the original suggested change could be amended over and over till it no longer resembled what the person submitting the change had in mind. This does leave open the question of, if and when a recommended constitutional change is not submitted in clear precise legal verbage. Does the Executive Council have the right to amend or change the proposal before submitting it to the body?

I understand I need to be patient and wait for an answer, but one more idea. From the Talk Forum, I think we can agree that a little tweeking could definately get this to pass. Could the Board call a "Special Meeting" as defined in the constitution. There is a 20 day notice. Have the meeting an hour before the State Body Meeting and work out the bugs so this will pass. I wouldn't think this would take longer than 20 min.

Pretty good idea...

Beeson

I am waiting on the minutes to get back to me so I can make sure I get posted right. I have been promised to have them by Sunday.

I do not need to call a special meeting the Council has already voted on this Propsal. It was debated in detail and a vote was taken.

I have spoken to Richard and he confirmed that any changes would make this go in to effect the next season. I will post it as soon as I get the minutes back.

Ned

I did not say a Special Meeting "NEEDED" to be called. It was just a suggestion to help this pass. The first question asked, after this was announced, was what about freshmen that are 14. This seems to be the main problem people are having with this proposal. I was just making a suggestion to try and get this to pass. We should not pass a flawed proposal and then try to fix it later.

Richard, would you please provide the specific language from the bylaws that prohibits a proposed amendment from being modified at the state body meeting. If this verbiage does exist please also provide the rational for it if you would.

bump

While we patiently await a reply and clarification from Richard here is a quick thought.

I believe that our bylaws do not restrict us from making a subsidiary motion should one be needed. As long as the subsidiary motion or primary amendment stays within the scope of the main motion no further notice requirement should be needed. Furthermore, pursuant to RONR “An amendment to the bylaws goes into effect immediately upon its adoption unless the motion to adopt specifies another time for its becoming effective, or the assembly has set such a time by a previously adopted motion”.

Debate and amendments are important in allowing the body to reach a conclusion that is agreeable to everyone. With no debate and amendments allowed, members are likely to just vote the whole thing down, but the parliamentary procedures used correctly allow us to perfect motions before adoption and reach compromise for the good of the organization. By not providing the opportunity to debate and/or amend a motion is denying a right to the members.

I am anxious to see the minutes of the executive council meeting to see how the actual proposed motion reads.

As always, an amendment to a motion from the floor will be allowed. What will not be permitted is an amendment from the floor to a written amendment properly submitted to the Executive Director by the prescribed Constitutional deadline.

My position is relatively simple. If a member submits a written Constitutional change the member deserves a vote on their proposed change. If an amendment to the proposed change is made, the change is NO longer the member’s who submitted the amendment.

Just a question. You were asked to "provide the specific language from the bylaws that prohibits a proposed amendment from being modified at the state body meeting. If this verbiage does exist please also provide the rational for it if you would". As you only provided your rationale, I would assume there is not specific language that prevents this, it is just your 'position' that prevents this. Then the question becomes what set of parlimentary rules do you use to develop your positions?? If you check Robert's Rules of Order - Summary Version For Fair and Orderly Meetings & Conventions you will find 'Before the motion is stated by the Chair (the question) members may suggest modification of the motion; the mover can modify as he pleases...'. In other words, the person who wrote the amendment can change it or others can recommend changes as long as the person who first made the motion accepts it. Finally, these rules also state - 'The assembly rules - they have the final say on everything!' The web site is -


http://www.robertsrules.org/

So my question is, why can't a 'friendly amendment' to the first amendment be made and accepted by the body.

In addition, I believe following this rationale, "If a member submits a written Constitutional change the member deserves a vote on their proposed change. If an amendment to the proposed change is made, the change is NO longer the member’s who submitted the amendment." is inconsistent with RONR (Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised considering the following.

Page 38 line-17. "Until the chair states the question, the maker has the right to modify as he pleases or to withdrawl it entirely. After the question has been stated by the chair, the motion becomes the property of the assembly, and then its maker can do neither of these things without the assembly's consent; but while the motion is pending the assmbly can change the wording of the motion by the process of amendment before acting upon it."

Also worth noting - After the motion has been made but before the chair states it or rules it is out of order, no debate is in order (debate is allowed after there has been a second and the chair states the question). At such time, however, any member can quickly rise and, without waiting to be recognized can ask the maker of the motion if he will accept the following modification. The maker can then choose to accept or deny it.

I do not think it is wise to deviate from the parliamentary procedures we are to follow especially without any approved provisions within our bylaws.

Richard, I think we are going to need more from you supporting your position. As I have stated to you privately, it would be a shame if these important issues aren't handled appropriately come the state body meeting and possibly delaying postive changes to KS Wrestling.

Just wondering how the discussion on this topic has gone in the three districts that have met.

Ed,

If this gets voted down and I believe it will, I will submit an amendment. The amendment will basically state that we add the High School division and accept the High School weight classes plus 7 pounds in this division. Freshmen that are in the 14U division will have the option to wrestle up into the High School Division.

A vote was taken and the majority of District 2 supported this ammendment.

If anyone would like to add input for this ammendment, please either pm me or add your comments to this topic.

Chad,
I think we should go to both high school and middle school weights while we are at it. As I have stated, I do not believe this admendment will have a dramatic impact on overall participation, but we need to keep that possibility in mind and go to the lesser number of weights. It is also keeping with what I believe some of the original intent of the admendment was, to create a grand state type of tournament.

Beeson,

I agree with your idea on the amendment. The only small item I would ask you to consider is whether we need to add the 7 lbs to the high school weights.

Here are my thoughts on that one item.....

1. We all know that one of the reasons for doing the high school category is to have the potential for a grand state. We also know that kids cut weight during the high school season and the odds of them cutting to their high school weight for this is slim to none.

2. I am not sure what we really gain by adding 7 lbs. If you really think about it the only thing it really does is hurt the 103 lbers that don't have to cut weight and are older than 14 yrs. For example: the 112 lbers for high school will wrestle at 119 lbs for kids....there is already a weight class for that. The 119 lb high school weights will be bumped to 126 lbs; there is already a scratch 125 lb wwieght class.

That is what I mean when I say that I am not sure what we really gain by adding 7 lbs to the high school weights. From my perspective it really only effects the 103 lbs, 189 lbs, and 215 lbs.

My concern is that by adding 7 lbs, the 103 lb weight class becomes 110 lbs. I think we are doing a disservice to some of our smaller kids that don't necessarily have to cut a bunch to make 103 lbs.

Truth in lending (and for those that know me now, you know how long ago this must have been): I am sensitive to this because in high school I would not have had a weight class to wrestle in under the 7 lb rule. I am biased to providing smaller kids as much oppurtinity as possible, we have enough sports that already take us out of the running due to lack of size.

Just my thoughts but our club would support your amendment. Allowing the freshman, 14 yr olds to have a choice to wrestle U14 or high school is the key for our membership.

Thanks.

Shawn Budke
Leavenworth County Spartans

Beeson,

I like your amendment, but 7 pounds seems like a lot. Wouldn't it be better to have little (2 or 3 lbs)or no allowance and leave it up to the wrestlers to decide if they want to stay at their high school weights or not.

I think his amendment encourages the HS kids to come back and wrestle their weights from the season, thereby making it more likely that we have some grand state caliber matchups.....

Just so I understand correctly, if someone wrestled at 152 for high school they could enter the new high school division at kids at 145 and still weight in at 152, correct?

This is exactly why I wanted some input on the ammendment.

My thought process behind the 7 pound allowance is this: After Certification wrestlers are given a 2 pound allowance, so a 125 pound wrestler is actually weighing in at 127. Most wrestlers are still pulling 5 to 10 pounds to make the certified weight. By allowing an extra 5 pounds the wrestler is more likely to wrestle what they wrestled in High School, thus more of a Grand State Tournament.

This is not set in stone that is why I was asking for some opinions. Now that you know my reasoning....let me know what you think.

Also what does everyone think of adopting the Middle School weights for the 14U?

So what would a 125 pound wrestler actually weigh at weigh-ins? 127 or 132? I'm sorry, I just dont understand, weight allowance is new to me.

Also, what are the middle school weights? I never paid any attention to it Spencer has just started to cut weight and has always just wrestled whatever his weight is.

Im not sure what middle school weights are....the 125 pound wrestler would have to make 132.

So, a 145 high schooler would have to certify at 147 then make 152 for kids, right?

If that is true, when/where do they certify?

Ed, check your private messages and give me a call.

No certifying is required for kids wrestling, he would just have to make the 152 weight at subs, district, state, in order to wrestle 145 bracket for kids state.

one problem I see is if the amendment includes that a 14u can choose to wrestle that or up in the new high school division. If that is in the amendment that will be in conflict with the constitution and may not even be able to be voted on. What if the freshmen that are 14u wrestle 14u and the rest of the high school wrestles in the high school division? If a freshman is over the age limit he/she will wrestle in the high school (18u) division.

If the membership approves an amendment, it is my understanding that it will not be able to take effect until the executive board votes on it at NEXT September's meeting, hence making it a part of the 2010-2011 season. If the question is voted on and approved by the body, it will go into effect this year since the executive board has already approved it. Correct me if I am wrong.

I can really relate to and appreciate Shawn Budkes commments. I am the mother of a 13 year old, soon to be 14 year old 8th grader who is not yet 90 lbs. The 7 lb. allowance concerns me and seems unfair. My son is on the smaller side and will be doing good to be close to 103 next year as a freshman. I know of others who are or would have been in this situation.

I hope the right decisions are made...please don't forget about the little guys. Mr. Budkes is absolutely right...there are already enough sports that take the little guys out of the running due to size!

The KSHSAA middle school "weight divisions for seventh and eighth grade wrestlers may be 75 lbs., 80 lbs., 85 lbs., 90 lbs., 95 lbs., 100 lbs., 105 lbs., 110 lbs., 115 lbs., 120 lbs., 127 lbs., 134 lbs., 141 lbs., 148 lbs., 155 lbs., 165 lbs., 180 lbs. and 265 lbs."

In my opinion the part of the by-laws that prevent a wrestler wrestling up an age group at qualifiers and state would have to be changed at the same time. I would suggest that it be worded so any wrestler may wrestle up one age group above their actual age.

Beeson,

You asked about the Middle School Weights....here's my 2 cents:

1. I recommend we keep the 14U weights the same as they are now.

2. My concern is that if we start adding additional changes then there is a greater chance for debate and people not voting for the change. Example: Someone may support adding the high school with the choice to wrestle 14U but not support changing the 14U weights. If you roll all of that into 1 amendment then you may not get the result we are trying for.

My understanding is that the overall goal is to get approval for high school kids to wrestle in the kids tournaments; with a secondary goal of setting conditions that would allow for a potential Grand State. If that is true then I wouldn't mess with the 14U weights. We have had them for years and they don't seem to be broke.....therefore don't fix what isn't broken.

It seems that a majority of people on here are in favor of adding the high school age group therefore, I would focus your amendment on that. I think you would get the support you need by doing what you proposed without changing the 14U weights.

From my point of view, the only question I have is why the 7 lb allowance? I understand where you are coming from but I really don't think it is needed. For example: A high school 125 lb wrestler may not want to pull the weight for kids club; if we give them 7 lbs he is really wrestling 132 lbs for kids. At the same time, you may have a 132 lb high school wrestler stay and wrestle at 132 for kids because they aren't pulling a lot of weight.

I think the 7 lb allowance is to try and get the kids to wrestle each other at the high school weights they wrestled at high school state, thus creating a grand state. I'm not sure that adding 7 lbs will give you that because there are too many other variables.

I support your idea but would like to see the 7 lbs weight allowance either not included or reduced to 2-3 lbs in addition to scratch.

Would like to know your thoughts.

Shawn Budke

Nothing says we can't have more than one admendment proposed for next year covering all of the concerns in this thread. The middle and high school weights have been talked about for years by many people for various reasons. One of the reasons being that it would free up additional mat space and allow more age groups to wrestle on larger surfaces.

Doug, I won't go as far as saying you are wrong but to date there has been no evidence put forth from the bylaws supporting this!! I am working hard to bring clarification to this issue and hopefully will have an answer prior to Salina. It would be a shame if we walked into the State Body meeting, conducted business, only to later learn it was handled inappropriately.

I would also add that the Executive Council has not approved the proposed primary amendment on this. They shall only provide a recommendation to the State Body. It will be up to the body with a 2/3 vote to approve a change of this nature.



There as been some good points brought forth on this amendment and would only hope if a good change is presented that we won't delay it for a year! That just doesn't make sense to me.

Update – As I mentioned above, I have continued to seek answers on why amending a main motion at the state body is not permitted. Unfortunately no answers of substance have been provided. I have sent a letter to each member of the Executive Council explaining the concerns regarding this issue and have asked each to carefully look into this. This is an important issue warranting better answers from our leaders to the members!

Our bylaws allow for a special meeting of the Executive Council and they can ultimately overturn Richard’s interpretation. In order for the meeting to take place (which I have planned for Sunday in Salina prior to the State Body meeting if not before) has to be requested by 4 members of the Executive Council, representing at least 3 Districts. These members include your District Director, Assistant Director and Freestyle Representative. If you have any concerns on this issue I strongly encourage you to drop a note to one of your directors (their email address can be found on the Directors page on the left) asking them to request a special meeting to at least discuss this issue. The deadline for the notice of this special meeting must be given by Wednesday the 28th!!!! If a request is not made for a special meeting the chances of this dying increases dramatically. This is an important issue and I believe transparency is critical. If you have any questions please feel free to email, pm, call me or post them.

Thanks!

Thank you all for your input.

Shawn, I think you have several valid points: The lightest weight being 110 is probably too heavy and the fewer changes made to the ammendment would make it more likely to pass. I do like the idea of taking on Middle School weights for the 14U division. But, there are 18 Middle School weights, and 18 Kids Division weights so I don't think it will make a big difference. We can address that next year.

My ammendment will be to replace the 16U division with a High School Division. The High School Division will also take on the High School weights: 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, and HWT. If a wrestler is in High School and age eligible for the 14U, they may choose which divison they will wrestle in for the State series.

elid2, I do not think wrestling up will be in violation of the constitution. My reasoning is, that if they are in High School they can wrestle the High School Division, and if they are 14U they can wrestle the 14U division. Basically they are eligible for both divisions, they just need to make the choice which division they want to wrestle in.

We still have a week before the meeting. I still welcome concerns and ideas.

All,

Well, it has been a while since I have visited this site and read up on some of the postings.

I see this is a lengthy thread and do not intend to read it in its entirety...

Would someone briefly describe what this motion is, so those of us that will show up next weekend will have an idea what we will be expected to vote on.

Or is this not a topic that the general body will be voting on.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff Broadbent - Mill Valley

Ned,

Please post the proposal in its entirety so that it can be evaluated by the general membership.

Jeff, basically the proposal is to eliminate the 16U division and call it "High School". The weight classes would remain the same. Freshmen would NOT be able to compete in 14U. This proposal would NOT increase the size of the state tournament but would offer and opportunity to fill the brackets at subs with high school wrestlers who were previously ineligible because of their age. It would purify the 14U to include only "kids" not high schoolers. The spirit of the proposal was to give more high school kids the OPPORTUNITY to wrestle. The proposal was nit picked today as discussion of the language in the proposal went down the path of "only those who were competing in high school which led to questions of students in good standing, etc.

The issue that is causing this thread to be of such great length is the interpretation of the by laws and when they can be amended, when the amendments become effective, and so forth.

Thanks

Those of us that are opposed to this proposal, basically would like for the 14 year old freshmen to have the option to wrestle in either division. I don't feel that we would be purifying the 14U but watering it down, by subtracting half of the participants. I agree with Will that the spirit of the proposal is to give more wrestlers the opportunity to compete, and I think that is a good thing. I just would like for it to be tweaked (ammended) a little.

My understanding - To vote this ("High School division) in this year the language in the proposal must remain EXACTLY the same as presented. Get that done first YES or NO for this year. There can be discussion about future changes to this division but Not by ammending the current proposal and still having it take place in the 2009/10 season or this year. At our district meeting - many people had valid questions and concerns about the current language and it intent. Future changes and the language will occur if the proposal passes. There is no reason to spend an excessive amount of hours on any particular topic if it has no chance of taking affect until the following season. Could we as a body have a written suggestion box that we could submit our ideas on proposed ammendmended changes.

For example: I am going to vote yes for the proposal in its current form. So that it takes affect this year.

My ammended suggestions that I drop in the box for this topic would be - Allow the 14 year olds who meet the age criteria to sign up for subdistrict, district and state for either the 14 & under division or the highschool division one or the other. Another question I would have is - if there is an eighth grader who is no longer 14 & under I assume he or she is automatically in the HS division. It can happen and I think it has happened that there have been a few eighth graders that are in the 16 & under group or HS age group this case. The current language has something about competed in HS in the current year - It doesn't say freshman, JV, varsity competition, etc. The weight classes of this change will be just another component of the discussion. Such as adding a 245lbs, or HS weights only, etc. But I like the idea personally of having a written signed, club name, and suggestion box - this would mean the board has a lot of extra reading - during their FREE TIME. The suggestion box might make the meeting go a little quicker. Allow 10 - 15 minutes of discussion - when the time is up move on in the meeting or drop you ideas in the suggestion box when the meeting is adjourned.

The best advice I have seen in this entire thread!

I disagree. I would rather get it right, or as close to right the first time. If this is pushed through just for the sake of change for this year (immediate gratification), I think we are doing a disservice to the kids that are going to be effected. If this does not take effect till next year, no one will be effected. If a poor proposal is accepted, the kids will suffer.

Beeson,

I like your amendment as you stated it a couple of posts above. Some other issues arose yesterday at our district meeting....

In the current proposal there are words to the effect of "a high schooler that competed on JV or Varsity". This raised concerns as to who is eligible. There are some schools that don't have high school wrestling and cannot co-op with other schools....therefore the kid has not competed on JV or High School. The question is are these kids still eligible.

One idea to alleviate confusion, is to get rid of the term "High School" age division and go to 18 and Under age Division. Do away with 16U age division (that is essentially what we are doing anyway) and just make a 18U age division (or you can make the max age fit what is allowed in high school).

BLUF: I like Beeson's amendment that allows freshmen that are 14U to have a choice to wrestle 14U or the High School division.

Shawn Budke

This is a perfect example of the reason why amending the proposal should be allowed. 200 minds are (sometimes) better than 25. If your change isn’t allowed we possibly prohibited kids from entering. If it is made and accepted, under the current way, we delay this change for a year! However, if we are allowed to tweak it as we should be able to we make it better TODAY!

I say keep it 18U as of the previous Sept.1 just like all the other age groups. Otherwise we are going to have kids possibly 19 and a half wrestling in this age group. KEEP it 18U!

But at 19 and a half year old state champion wont be able to compete?
Call it the High School Division!
If you were enrolled in a high school during the year of... then you are eligable.

It's kind of a croc that a kid can be a 19 1/2 year old HS state champ anyway....

I am trying to stay away from someone having to produce a valid lunch ticket in order to wrestle. It should be an 18U division period just for semantics purposes alone.
Personally I would prefer that it be a 17U division, period. I feel like the high schoolers and in particular the seniors have already had their state tournament. To refer to this as anything resembling a Grand State would be fraud regardless, because many of your state champions will be competing in other spring sports for their schools. With that thinking I believe the seniors that are going to most likely use this new division will be the also rans. Nothing wrong with that but I just feel the seniors or those over the age of 17 have had their shot and it's time to give the underclassmen a chance.
Has anyone put pencil to paper and figured out the minimum number of full size mats this will add to the tournament?

JUNIOR (Men)
Born 9/1/1990 & after, plus enrolled in grades 9-12

USA Wrestling defines this division already. This is from themat.com. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

It will not require

We already use full size mats for 16U so it will not require any additional mat space or a modification of the mat lay out for state. The subs and districts should anticipate more participants than we have had in the past.

Lets just assume we are looking at HS Juniors and Seniors only. There are a little more than 200 HS programs in the state with an average of 30 wrestlers. To be conservative figure only 1/3 of these programs have Jr and Sr wrestlers. We are looking at an OPPORTUNITY for 2,000 wrestlers to extend their Folkstyle season. Even if we only get 10% that is 200 more wrestlers or 50 per district. We need to give it a try this year and see how it works. We have to stop argueing over the wording of the amendment and splitting hairs. The proposal in its present status offers MORE kids the chance to compete in Kansas USA Wrestling. Isn't that what we are here for, the kids that is!

Yes we are here for the kids, but....I truely feel we will be sacrificing the 14U division. These kids, as a whole, are not physically, mentally or emotionally ready to compete with Jr.'s and Sr.'s. Just look at the All State rankings. 103 is the only weight with freshman in it.

We do not need to push this through for the sake of change. This proposal feels like a poor product being sold by High Pressure Sales. The only problem is we can't cancel the deal within 3 days once we come to our senses.

My club does not have one kid that will be effected either way by this proposal passing or failing. I am thinking of the kids, not in my club but statewide.

14U division will be weakened. It will be mainly an 8th grade division, except for the few "redshirted" 7th graders.

I'm sorry but I can not vote for a proposal knowing that it is not right. What do we lose from fixing it and making it RIGHT?

Chad, what do we have to do to put you in a poorly worded constitutional admendment today?

With the right birthday and/or a kid getting held back in held back early in his schooling then its very easy to have a Sr. over 19.
But the description that Cokeley gave wraps it up in a nut shell.
And yes, I hope this does produce a Grand State type turnout!

BLT,

This will not produce a Grand State type turnout for a couple reasons.

1) NHSCA Nationals and Flo Nationals are on the same weekend. Your elite wrestlers will be at these tournaments.

2) More than 50% of your state placers that are eligible do not participate now.

The only way to draw the big names in the state for a Grand State is if it is sanctioned by KSHSAA.

What i understand is that we can not revise it and it be in effect for this year? and if that is the case then why cant we pass it the way it is so that the seniors this year could still wrestle and then we get the amendment or whatever in before the deadline for next year? just and idea. Also i understand some freshman losing out on being at the top of the age division, but they have already have been wrestling uper classman all year so i dont see why its a HUGE deal.

I still do not understand the view that this motion cannot be revised and still go into effect this year. Our rules, per our constitution, allows this as has been pointed out. In fact, how long ago on this thread did someone ask Richard to explain his position. I would assume EVERYONE on this forum has a RIGHT to know how he justifies his position - and not just Richard doesn't play well with others - but where in Roberts Rules he gets the justification for this. And, Ned- what is your view?? Chad, Jeff, Shawn and others have approached this in a very rational, adult manner - trying to come up with an option that works for all - and have received no cooperation. Unacceptable.

BLT, why won,t they answer your question? and why did they not pass the motion to let the kids wrestle up in weight or age? huh? Beeson, coongrats. you are doing a good job in District 2

Hey Dean 70,
Welcome back to the talk fourm for another season. How are boys? Hows Robert?
Listen, I know you are very passionate about a few of the weight class and age issues. I HIGHLY encourage you to start talking to the new leadership of our district. If Chad thinks its best for the sport or if enough people are talking in his ear then he is a can do kinda guy.

I think somewhere in the bylaws it states that new proposals must be submitted by a certain deadline or date to get on the agenda or even be considered for the agenda. The new proposals get reviewed by exceutive committee when they have their meetings. Otherwise people would be bringing in written proposals on age groups, weight changes, length of season, online USA cards, virtual online wrestling (this could save money), remote weighins, all sorts of stuff and the meetings would go on and on and on and on. I am like everyone else I think I have a great idea - but never get a written proposal submitted ontime to get on the agenda. Nobody's fault but my own.

BLT,

I used 18U as an example only. I am not familiar enough with the high school rules on the ages and eligibility requirements. My intent was that the age cut off should be whatever it is for high school. Obviously (at least to me) the thing that makes the most sense is the Juniors category that USAW wrestling has already established.

My only hang up with this concept at all is the forcing of 14U to have to wrestle the high school division. Some on here have said "they have done it all year, what is the big deal". Well in my eyes it is a big deal because I think it will reduce the number of kids that are in that age category. If I am a freshman jv or lower wrestler then what is my incentive to continue after high school? Therefore, I don't think we will increase numbers with those type of kids.

I like the proposal and want to support it but I think we should give those freshman the choice. IMO giving the choice supports the most kids.

Here's a question to anyone.....

What is the overall purpose of this proposal? What is the intent behind this?

1. Create a Grand State?
2. Create More opportunities for kids?

If we get that answered then I think it helps frame the issue and help us focus on the type of solution.

Chad,

I still like your amendment without the weight allowance.

Shawn Budke

Shawn I am totally in your line of thinking. Yes, the 14 y.o.'s have been wrestling with the HS'rs all season but now being a 14 y.o. they can truly compete with their own age group and see what's out there for them as they progress.

I do not like the idea of moving it to grades 9-12. I truly feel you will discourage the numbers of 14 y.o.'s that continue. Kids wrestling has been an option after their wrestling season to match up with the power houses in their age group ...there is a huge difference between a 9th grader and a 12 grader....

Many times I've seen the placers at state not by their own account choose NOT to continue on with Kids' Wrestling after season because they want to move on to another sport or their just tired and need a break since they've been generally playing football and then wrestling and then they want to just relax a few weeks or so.

I really can't see the numbers growing outrageously if you add the 18 year olds....and feel the 14 y.o.'s will be the ones that your "turning off".

Sean, you are correct. There is a process for submitting new bylaw changes. These have to be submitted to Ned by July 31st via certified mail! Ned is then required to send each of the Executive Council members by August 31st a copy of these proposals (I am not sure this was done). These are then discussed at the Executive Council meeting and a recommendation is to be made. This process is for “NEW” proposals. It does not address amendment to these proposals!! Robert’s Rules of Order specifically addresses how amendments are to be made and explicitly permits them.

Pursuant to the requirements of our Bylaws and at the request of the necessary directors (which has been obtained. Thank you to those who have responded) a special meeting of the Executive Council shall be called by Ned for Sunday before the State Body Meeting. This will provide an opportunity to bring clarity to the issue of amending an amendment and I look forward to the discussion. Hopefully the council will see the importance of allowing amendments (within the scope of the original motion) and when the important proposals are presented later in the day, they will be handled appropriately.

Here is another perfect example of the importance of allowing amendments to proposals.

The motion as noted in the minutes of the Executive Council states this will be a "high school division". For those that are 15 and still in 8th grade you just eliminated them from competing in the kids qualifying tournaments. How does this make sense? If you vote on this and it is approved you just voted to keep kids out! If you vote it down because of its restrictive language then you just delayed a possible good change (with an amendment being allowed) for another year.

If the amendment is allowed, the verbiage could be slightly tweaked, making the proposal more appeasing and not prohibiting anyone from competing!

Richard, do you want to be the point person when the angry dad/mom questions why his son can’t wrestle?

I believe you will lose just as many 14u freshmen as you pick up from the junior senior crowd that couldn't wrestle before, if you do not allow the 14u freshmen to choose. I have a couple of freshmen that can still wrestle 14u that are now in their 2nd year of wrestling. At 14u, they can compete, but at HS level, they will be 2 and BBQ most likely at Subs. The state also has lots of freshmen that SHOULD wrestle HS division. Hopefully they will do that.

I wish the executive council would notify the membership of things like this that they are talking about at their meeting, so we can give input PRIOR to their meeting, not AFTER they have voted on something without anyone's input.

I propose that we change the 16 under division to a high school division. Any current high school athlete that has competed at the high school level, whare it was Varsity or JV would need to wrestle in this division at the qualifying tournaments this upcoming season. This would include 9th through 12 grade. James Cook, Smokey Valley Wrestling Club.

There were two priorities to this proposal. These would define the scope:

1. Remove high school wrestlers from 14U to make 14u, 12u, 10u, and 8u a "Kid's State".

2. To provide an opportunity for all high school (Junior by USA definition) wrestlers to compete in the qualifying series.

There is no intent to exclude any wrestlers but only an attempt to define what high school means which clearly, by USA definition, includes ALL wrestlers born after 9/1/1990. This would include 8th graders who are too old for 14U, wrestlers who were ineligible for their high school program (for whatever reason), wrestlers who were home schooled, etc. There was NEVER any intent to restrict participation.

We can split hairs all day long looking for the perfect wording. Heck, our by-laws in there present state need some fine tuning. At the end of the day MORE wrestlers will be permitted to wrestle if the amendment passes untouched and no one will be turned away.

If amendments to the amendment are allowed within the scope or intent of the author then it will be more clearly defined but the opportunity to wrestle will still exist.

If you vote no then a group of kids will be denied the opporuntity to compete this year which could be their last year.

We cannot improve without change.

Will,

I support the concept and agree that we need to make this change, however, words mean things. You of all people understand that.

If we adpot this as written, we are excluding a group of kids. It may be very small but it will exclude them. Here's an example based on the following quote of the proposal.....

"Any current high school athlete that has competed at the high school level, whare it was Varsity or JV would need to wrestle in this division at the qualifying tournaments this upcoming season."

Based on that sentence we will have kids that are not included. Is a freshman who did not wrestle JV or Varsity allowed to compete? According to this, NO.

Is a kid who does not have a chance to wrestle in high school because the school doesn't have wrestling have a chance to compete? According to this NO.

These are just 2 examples of where this proposal would exclude kids from wrestling. One can argue that this effected population would be very minimal. You can also argue that we can change it once we pass it and have it go into affect next year.....well that is the same argument some are using to get us to pass this now.....if we don't pass it we are eliminating an opportunity for a group of kids this year. I submit, that if we pass it as written we still have a population that we are eliminating....just a different group.

Also, more theoretical argument.....

1. If we don't allow 14U the choice to wrestle 14U I think we will see the numbers drop. I think more kids will choose not to wrestle when they are freshmen 14U than what we will gain by having Juniors and Seniors wrestle. Heck, I talked to about 4 or 5 high school kids last year at the Kids State tournament that were eligible to wrestle 16U and they did not compete. They did not see the value in doing so. Now we can argue all day whether that is the right attitude or not but the kids I was talking to were kids that placed at Fargo, won high school state as freshmen and sophomores, etc.

2. Personal opinion......I am afraid that without an amendment to give the choice to 14u to compete in 14u then we will ultimately lose more kids than we will gain. I know in our club, we have a lot of relatively inexperienced kids that fit that category. They wrestle kids club after high school because they get a chance to have some success and continue to work as they mature as a wrestler. The kids that are already Juniors or Seniors have already made up their minds. Most of them are tired of wrestling and want a break or they are focused on National level tournaments, freestyle and greco. What is the incentive for them to do the Kids series? In order to grow the sport we can't leave out the younger kids that are just learning or are not the elite.

Bottomline: I like the idea and will support it. I want to see us amend it so the 14u can have a choice. If that means waiting a year to get it fine tuned(although I think it is crazy we have to) then I am willing to do that.

I personally know both you and James and consider you both friends, I know that there was never any intent to exclude anyone. In fact, the two of you spend more time than most expanding opportunities for kids and helping kids. Please don't take this as a personal difference it is nothing but a philisophical difference that can be settled with a simple amendment.

Shawn Budke

I do not see this change as improvement. I am even more leery of something that "has to be done NOW".

Will, I am on board with about 90% of your ideas for change, this is not one of them.

Simple Question: How many of you that will be voting Wrestled? If you haven't, you have no idea what is best for the 14U wrestlers. I DID wrestle, as a freshman in High School. I only placed at one tournament my freshman year, Regionals, and went into High School State with a 10-11 record. I finished my high school season at 12-13. I was not mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to compete with Jr's and Sr's. This was at 126, imagine if I had been heavier.

At kids I won state that year, but not by beating up on 8th graders. I had several close matches, where both wrestlers were competitive. My next three years in High School I won State Championships.

I'm not telling this story to say "Look at Me". My point is, that if a 3x High School State Champ was not ready as a Freshman, how can we expect kids that will have a hard time qualifying as Sr's.

I'm just asking you to do what is best for the kids. I have been there and know what it is like...I will be voting NO.

Will,

I have the utmost respect for what you do for Kansas wrestlers and how you fight to make changes for the betterment of our sport. I dont believe I have ever disagreed with you on any issue before, but I do on this one.

If you would just answer two questions for me please. How many of the 8th graders from the four middle school duals teams would be competitive in this new high school division this year? And why would you want to make them try?

Folks,

I made a mistake....I should not have addressed my previous comments to just Will. It is not my intent to bring out certain posters with personalities and water down the debate.

At our district meeting a lot of what I said in my post was brought up at various times. We had a great discussion.

From my perspective, I think the reason for the push do vote this in now is to at least get some positive change. The idea is that this change may not be perfect but we can change it once we get it in. I think there is some worry about postponing for a year and then the bureuacracy and wheels of change could grind to a halt....my perspective and I understand it.

There has to be a way to make an amendment that doesn't modify the original intent.

Beeson,

Very well stated. My perspective comes from a very similar experience only in a different state.

Shawn Budke

Their current High Schools will start making them try on November 16th.

8th graders?

No, the FOUR MIDDLE SCHOOL TEAMS from last year. They are now freshmen.

There is always going to be a wrestler's last year be it their senior year in High School or their last year in Kids Wrestling or their last year in College or further down the road.

I do not see the advantage of dropping the 14 and under age division to add a 9-12 grade Men's division.

Which doesn't make it right. Wrestling is the only sport that does not have a Freshmen Team. Football, Basketball, Volleyball, etc. All other sports have a Freshman team, a JV, and a Varsity. When counting students for classifications they dont count the Freshmen. Why is that, because for the most part Freshmen will not be competing in Varsity Sports.

Wrestling has Junior Varsity. The participation levels don't allow for a freshman team. Even if they did, how would that help develop a wrestler more than JV competition and JV league tournament?

Is our main goal to develop wrestlers or to win a medal against middle schoolers?

And in fairness, they thought last year was their last year. The Seniors and Juniors who would be added have already come to grips with the fact that their last year of kids is over.

The 14U group are anticipating their year to be the oldest, so who is really being slighted if this passes?

Chad,

As I added to my last post, is our goal to develop wrestlers or to satisfy an anticipation to have one over on a MS kid?

Chief,

We will have to agree to disagree. I do not see it has having one over on a middle school kid. I see it as an age difference that has been since these kids were 6.

Yes, every kid anticipates being at the top of their age division. Just like Sr.'s anticipate being at the top of the age division.

Chad,

You have to admit to this:

The upper end of an age division changes its meaning when you now include a wrestler who has competed against 18 year olds all year long for 6 days a week in a HS room. All of the other kids age jumps involve kids club wrestlers who sometimes practice Tuesdays and Thursdays.

That age difference since they were 6 is NOT the same.

Do me a favor. Go to a High School wrestling room and tell me what you see. My guess is you will see Freshmen and Sophmores wrestling with Freshmen and Sophmores. Juniors and Seniors wrestling Juniors and Seniors. Occasionally a Senior will grab a Freshman or Sophmore, usually so he can slack off or rest. There will be a group of kids that are going out for the first year. These kids will work together most of the year working on basic moves and trying their luck every now and then against JV. Once the season kicks in, the Varsity wrestlers will be at Practice on Monday and Tuesday to wrestle. Wednesday is a slow day because of pulling weight. Thursday is Match Day. Friday and Saturday Tournament Days. All the while your beginners and Freshmen who didn't make the team or trip will be wrestling each other, 2-3 practices a week. Sounds like 8th and 9th Graders are on a pretty level playing field. Remember I have been there and know what it is like.

Why do we care about being "FAIR" to the 8th Graders but not the 9th Graders?

Chad,

You have to drop the "I have been there" argument. Many of us have been there. I disagree with you that your examples are the rule. Look at the rosters of over 200 schools in Kansas and see the 9th and 10th graders lining the varsity. For one thing far less teams wrestle on Thursdays anymore. When they do wrestle, there are usually more JV matches going on the mat next to them. I can assure you that JV wrestlers at the majority of high schools wrestle 4-6 days a week. It is not a "FAIR" issue. It is a looking forward, progressing and developing issue instead of pretending that we are doing our wrestlers a favor by encouraging them to take their skills to a lower level just to get that "feeling" of winning a kids state title as a high schooler.

I will bring up a point that nobody including you has addressed. Why are the top wrestling states in the nation on my side? Have they not heard your argument? Should they read your post and then say, "Wow, we are missing out on an extra kids medal!" "Why didn't we think of that?"

The answer is they have talked this through and decided that for the development of their wrestlers, they will push forward instead of backward.

Amazing....

I just looked at the first few teams in 4A that list their RETURNING varsity members.

Abilene - 9 out of 14 were underclassmen last year.
Andale - 6 out of 14 were underclassmen last year.

Your own Ark City team has EIGHT of 14 returning lettermen that were varsity underclassmen last year!

Beeson is pretty much right on. You always have a few freshman that are standouts and a coach will make them wrestle upper classmen in practice to get them more prepared for the highschool level, they are the exception, most freshmen are not ready for varsity competition even if they are varsity on their team.

His point was freshmen and sophomores not wrestling varsity. The evidence is weighed against him. In many cases they make up over half of a teams varsity roster.

Jeremy, can you answer the questions that I posed?

You guys are arguing about the wrong thing. No one, I repeat no one (I am faily sure), would disagree with the few changes Chad has endorsed/suggested. It appears you are only arguing because Richard has said 'no changes to the original proposal' and some want this done this year. Well argue about if Richard is right. I read the by-laws today, I do not find anything that prevents the the motion from being amended. I believe (and Jeff you seem to be more familiar with Roberts Rules, so correct me if I am wrong) that the motion can be amended if the maker of the motion (or club) accepts it. As one cannot foresee everything, and the changes noted keep the original intent as far as I see, then Richard should also be satisfied. What I find most upsetting is that an officer of this body, appointed by the board, refuses to answer legit questions posed by the membership and the board is silent. Richard has posted on other threads??? A high school division, with freshmen having the option to wrestle the high school divison or 14U, could end up making state alot of fun. Stop arguing amoung yourselfs and fix this.

And, wasn't the motion on coach's passes amended last year by the body??

No, the answer is that they do not allow wrestling after the age of 15. After the magical age of 15, all they have is High School. You are comparing apples to oranges, lets drop the 16U division and then we can compare those states with ours. I don't want to do that either.

Just got off the phone with Wayne Jackson and Greg Buckbee. Both share my opinion that Freshmen, as a whole, can not compete with upperclassmen. There are exceptions, but the majority can not. Apparently Derby's Coach Molloy agrees also. I would sure like for some High School coaches to sound off on this. For or Against....just would like your thoughts.

That is a great argument. How many that are for this change, experienced it first hand. Watching a child go through it does not count. Personal Experience speaks alot louder than, an "Arm Chair Quarterback".

Is it their opinion that Kansas freshman can't compete or just freshman can't compete? Those top wrestling states didn't just say, "Let's not give our 15 year olds a chance to wrestle". They actually BELIEVE its in their best interest to continue wrestling high schoolers or pursue freestyle/greco experience. It wasn't a random draw out of a hat!

So Chad, the wrestlers that experienced wrestling only high school division in Ohio, Illinois and Pennsylvania have a worse perspective than you? You aren't cutting any new ground. They have fully discussed the issue and decided to have their high school wrestlers challenged. Has it hurt them? Is our way better?

Apples / Oranges....Drop the 16U division and lets not accept this proposal. Then we can be like those states that you seem to envy. Wait, we also need to quadruple our states population. Wasn't this your argument at the beginning of this post. I guess I could go back and respond the same way I did then.

And those wrestlers in Ohio, Penn, and Illinois, DID NOT HAVE A KIDS TOURNAMENT TO WRESTLE IN....that is the difference.

Which is better? Wanting to be like them or ignoring them. I am proud of our Kansas warriors and want to raise the standards, not lower them.

They had one when they were KIDS.

I'm not wanting to lower the 14U group...just keep them the same. The 16U division would have it's standards raised. If you want to be like them then we would have to stop wrestling Kids after the 8th grade. That does not seem like the right thing to do....but....Penn, Illinois, and Ohio do it, so should we?

Chief,

Question for you, my son is 14 and a freshman, he is still in jr high, if he doesnt wrestle for a high school this year what division would I enter him in at kids state?

OK. It's been fun...

Even though I really believe that Missouri and others have it right, I can tell that many of us can't take a cold turkey change. As I stated about 20 pages ago, I would not mind a 14U choice for non-varsity freshmen. The best solution goes back to having a true Cadet and Junior division. That would bulk us up for national competition.

Your high school changed the rule this year, so the choice is clear.

Explain...I don't understand you last post Chief.

Lawrence doesnt have freshmen wrestle in jr high anymore, as of this year.

I do believe that this proposal is a big step in the right direction, but with only the small amendment that the 14u freshmen have an option to wrestle 14u, it will be perfectly acceptable to I believe a HEAVY majority of clubs. I can tell you two of our freshmen that won't wrestle the kids state series after HS season. Though I've said many times that a loss sometimes teaches us more than a win, there are going to be lots of kids that say "I have no chance" and are not going to sign up. Am I saying that is the right mentality to have, NO. But if they had an opportunity to win a match or two against 8th graders or other beginner type 14u freshmen, versus going 0-2 at subs against upperclassmen, we have a heck of a lot better chance at getting them signed up. I think Beeson probably should have said "the large majority" of freshmen aren't able to compete with the upperclassmen. And his proposal isn't saying ALL freshmen should wrestle 14u, it only gives the option. It will be a self policing option IMO. If this had been in place last year, and Bo Pursel would have signed up for 14u instead of HS division, his dad, me, and every other coach in the state would have rung his neck. The kids that are capable of moving up to the HS division aren't obsessed with kids' state championships, so they will take on the challenge of teh new HS division.

FYI, The Executive Council and I have received notice from Ned that amendments to main motions will be allowed at the State Body Meeting and if it passes the motion will go into effect this year. This is great news! Thanks to everyone who has shared their thoughts on this issue.

Take care.

well there were 2 motions. 1. the motion for 14 and under wrestling kids state or up? then there was kids wrestling up in weight and age. is that right? and ned said all motions to be voted on at the state board meeting. good work people. so BLT, now is the time to adjust the HWT series. my kid is going on his third yesr of wrestling and never had a chance to wrestle at state series. he weighed over 125lbs at 8 and under. he could travel all over the state and get to participate. but when it comes to subs, he is always done. why? cause you guys cant amend things? the USA govt and USA wrestling amend policies everyday. Cmon, this is AMERICA.. get er done

Dean70,

Because a proposal to adjust the HWT's was not received by the deadline, we will not be able to discuss it at the State Body Meeting. My suggestion would be to get some input from this talk forum, and then send in a proposal during this season while it is still fresh on your mind. The board will then be able to bring it before the State Body next year.

Chad,
Dean 70 and Hossus have been on the fourm for the last 2 seasons (maybe longer) pushing for change in this area. People have told them that it would be discussed and then they issue of "oops" we will get to it next time because of "blah blah blah"!
I think people need to be better educated on our processes and there needs to be postings made a month or so before the meetings deadlines. Not on the Friday night before the Sunday deadline like I think has been done in the past.

I know this thread isn’t the right place to post this and will keep this quick.

Lance, you are exactly correct! There needs to be better education of the process and more transparency from top down. I am talking about being proactive and encouraging questions and then responding in a timely and informative way! From my recent experience I can understand why so many may begin but are quickly discouraged and give up. I honestly believe we have some of the brightest folks of any state, with great ideas, but are intimidated by the process and unknown. This forum provides a great starting point to explore ideas, get input etc etc. It also provides an excellent way for our leaders to proactively share knowledge!

More to come on another thread.

At some point I want to be introduced to the person or persons NOT declaring Kansas one of the "top wrestling states". I have a real bone to pick with them!

.


PA
OH
CA
NJ
MN
IL
NY
IA
MO
WI
MI

Well, we are not in the top 11. No argument! You know me so introduce yourself on Sunday but be gentle, I am fragile.

Now let me see, what do all of those states have that we here in Kansas do not? Oh yeah....... at least twice our population!!!!! Duh, silly me for wanting a fair comparison based on a reasonable formula. I would bet all those states have more drivers than Kansas too, that must make them better drivers; physicists, that must make them smarter than us and on and on and on...... Per capita, Kansas more than handles it's own of course!

You did not say "per capita" in your request to meet a person that doesn't believe Kansas is one of the top wrestling states! Once you throw that in, Montana and North Dakota would look really good!

Please stay on point Greg.

Ok....stop the madness....this has been a great discussion on a great proposal. Let's not turn this into another personal grudge match on the forums.

From my perspective: We have been asked to discuss and support a good idea. Based on the discussion, a lot of folks have raised some valid issues. One being whether we can ammend the proposal and still have it go into affect this year....that question has been answered...we can.

This is a very good thing all the way around. I totally agree with Doug in that if the 14U choice is included then this concept will pass with flying colors.

Lets keep the conversation focused on the topic.

Thanks....at least I feel better now!

Shawn Budke

Does anyone have an ammendment they would like to share? Several possibilities have been discussed... It would be nice if we could use this forum to sort out the details in order to get it mostly right with minimal loup holes and pit falls to debate come Sunday. Thanks.

Mark Stanley

Ammendment: The 16U division will be replaced with a High School Division. The only qualification to wrestle in the High School division is that the wrestler must attend a High School in the state of Kansas at the time of the State Tournament.

Wrestlers that qualify for both 14U and High School Division must choose between the two at Sub-Districts.

Let the adding and subtracting begin.

Sounds pretty dang good as is!

Do we need to add: or, if attending high school in a border state, their home residence must be in the state of Kansas?

I am thinking of a students that might live near the border and for whatever reason might actually attend school in another state.

Personally I think if you are attending a High School in another state you should not be allowed to wrestle in our State series.

I'm not sure what the actual rules are, does anyone want to elaborate?

I was just thinking it should match the rest of the kids rules, which I believe allows for a kid to wrestle the KS State series as long as they live in KS - but I may be wrong.

PART B – QUALIFYING FOLKSTYLE TOURNAMENTS
1. Qualifying tournaments are tournaments that are used to qualify or are in a series of tournaments that could advance a wrestler to the State level of competition, including the state tournament itself. Qualifying tournaments are subject to all sanctioned tournament rules in the preceding Part A, except where those rules have been modified or expanded under this Part B.
2.[b] For the purpose of eligibility of entering a Sub-District or District tournament, a competitive member must be a resident of Kansas and/or be enrolled in a Kansas educational school system. Special cases to this rule are subject to notification and permission from the Executive Council.[/b] The State Tournament Director will be notified of any person permitted to

Instead of calling it the H.S. Division, maybe 18u would help eliminate 5th and 6th year seniors.

And this will be with high school weight class's! Is that right??

Ammendment: The 16U division will be replaced by a High School Division. To wrestle in this divison a wrestler will need to either attend a Kansas Recognized High School or provide documentation that they are being home schooled in the State of Kansas. The High School Divison will take on the weights that are used by KSHSAA for their State Tournaments.

Wrestlers that are eligible for both 14U and the High School Division will need to choose between the two divisions when registering for Sub-Districts.

Wrestlers that are in 8th grade and over the age of 15 by the September 1st birthday cut off wil be required to wrestle in the High School Division.

Suggestions?

Sounds very good. However, I think you should consider a 98 lbs weight class for the small kids. We do have one at our school who could be a 4 year 103 without cutting weight. Just an idea.

beeson, no i did not follow through with the certified letter due by july 31st. i thought that was alot of redtape to get nothing done. in the minutes from september, i seen a letter proposing to let wrestlers wrestle up in weight or age. no motion was made. why is that? since it was the last page or discussion of that day,i felt like the executive council was ready to call it a day. thats fine but hear me out here. I talked to several people in charge about this. at one point, i was told the board would not change the weight limit for 2 or 3 kids. i was told it would cause the state series to last longer. i also viewed posts where people mentioned not wanting to watch heavies roll around on a mat was a waste of time. and people just wanted a free medal. so yes i did see that sending a letter to ned was a waste of my time.. my son will have a chance this year to compete and go to state if he makes it. but i want to see a change to the policies. kids are bigger now. america has an obesity problem. i think if a kid weighs so much he doesnt have fair chance to cut weight, he should be able to move up an age division. my son started the season last year at 150 lbs. do you think this kid could cut 25 lbs? 8 and unders weight limit should of been amended last year. it does not matter for me personally anymore. but we need to look out for the other kids and parents who are putting their kids in wrestling over an overweight issue. wrestling has did alot for my son. i just felt he got done wrong sitting at state watching and not competing.

I like Beeson's latest amendment. We can support that. Thank you.

Shawn Budke

Beeson your amendment is great.

I do not support non-Kansas residents or non-Kansas schooled wrestlers wrestling in the Kansas Wrestling Series.

Does Oklahoma/Missouri/Nebraska/Colorado allow any of our Kansas wrestlers to do such a thing?

There is a provision allowing out of state wrestlers which requires Executive Board approval prior to the qualifying series. There are some kids who live in Missouri but attend school in Kansas that are approved. There have been some other isloated cases as well.

Residency and eligibility have already been defined in the by laws so it does NOT need to be addressed in this amendment.

I also do not believe we need to alter the weights we have for 16U. They can be applied to this new division. There are 19 weight classes, 100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155, 160, 165, 175, 185, 215, 250, 285, instead of the 14 utilized in high school, 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285. This provides more wrestlers an opportunity to compete. The 100 pound class was far below capacity so I don't believe we need any lighter classes as mentioned in an earlier post.

Chad, I would support your amendment!

The proposal to replace the 16 and under age division with a high school age division has been more clearly defined. The amendment seeks to add the following language to the bylaws in place of the 16 and under division in the USAWA-Kansas Kids State Qualifying series:
Age determination shall be as of midnight, August 31 for that competitive year. For example, a child with a birthday on August 31, 1998 will wrestle as an eleven-year-old during the 2009/10 season. A child born on September 1, 1998 will wrestle as a ten-year-old during the 2009/10 season. Any USAWA-Kansas Kids club may challenge the age of any wrestler during weigh-in at a sanctioned tournament. The wrestler or the wrestler's club must, within one week, provide a birth certificate or similarly reliable verification that the wrestler's age stated on his/her membership card and school grade are is accurate.

The High School Division is available for wrestlers currently attending high school, or middle school if their age does not qualify them for a younger age division. Wrestlers qualifying for two different age divisions may only enter one of those divisions. Weight classes for the High School Division will be as follows: 100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155, 160, 165, 175, 185, 215, 250, 285.

That looks good! Will, is this the main motion that will be made? If so, Chad's amendment will not be needed.


Great job everyone collaborating on this issue!

That looks good. We will definitelly support that change.

PS- Thanks for including the 100 lb weight class for those of us that are currently on the smaller albeit more rounder side of life!

Shawn Budke

Do we want the HS Division periods to be 2-2-2 or 1.5-1.5-1.5??

2-2-2 is my vote

Put me down for 2-2-2.

2-2-2

Any updates from the state meeting yesterday?

The High School Division passed. Thanks for the support on this one. We may have to do some work on it next year, but it is a start of change for the state of Kansas.

Did it pass the way Cokeley has it posted above?

The 2-2-2-minute periods couldn't be changed. It's going to 1.5-1.5-1.5

That is, if we have a quorum next year to do any voting. Based on this years attendance numbers I would seriously doubt if we will!

I apologize in advance for not reading all 14 pages of this post before asking this as I'm sure it's answered somewhere, but did this pass effective this year? Will all high schoolers be able to wrestle in kids state in March?

Yes, this takes effect this year.