OVER ZEALOUS REFS HAVE TO BE CONTROLED TOO.....

Let me saw first that I've been thrown out of a few tournaments. And I deserved it everytime. Opions always very. And I've always tought that with great power comes great responsibility.

This Saturday at District 1's tournament I watched as Cody Reynolds of UMS Topeka was offically ejected which basicaly means he will not see his kids and even his son compete at the state tournament. And I think its completely out of line and over celius.

In this situation He "QUESTIONED A JUDGMENT CALL". Not by yelling, Cussing, charging the mat, Using a harsh tone or Aggressive hand genstures IE. POINTING etc. But in a normal respectful tone questioned a control call. When he was OFFICALLY wargned he was almost as shocked as the rest of us. And was accually still being respectful and was trying to get a grip on what was going on saying hold on, hold on . Well your gone get out and was escorted away by the head ref. Who was watching the whole thing go on.

Now I know theres a greiveience comity and all that crap. But this close to the State tournament doesn't that call for a little extra judgment coming from highier ups. theres accually alot at stack here and seeing is how at this time this coach really wasn't in my opion in the wrong really But more that a ref was just tired and cranky. I've heard all the stuff and agree you have to stand behind your refs and support there discions But how can you have a fair shake when the grievence comity is hand picked by whom? Certinly not a non biost consisting of the head ref tournament director and some of the other close friends now who wouldn't want that to be your hanging JURY sounds like a dam good time. Its bull a slap on the hand got way outta line. hell if this was going to be the punishment he shoulda just charged the mat and freaked out same punishment right might as well make it worth it.



JON TORWBRIDGE
4251 PARKVIEW AVE.
KANSAS CITY KANSAS 66104
913-314-4529

It is sad but true.There is some refs you can not talk to,some you cant rase your voice to,Than there is some that you can just aboout do anything to.

Just like cops or any one in power.They do what they want,not what is right.

There is many many good refs out there.But if you get on there bad side[just like most any one]look out.

Not sure of the facts here,but I do think as in any time of the year,it should not be in one mans hands.I like you think the greiveience comity should be not on a friends pick.

This is quite absurd! Cody Reynolds is one of the most "cool" under pressure and I cannot fathom the idea of his ejection! I know of one ref....(great in his days that absolutely takes complete defense when asking to discuss his judgement/baseline ruling) why wasn't or couldn't it have been in order --- for it to be a "teachabe moment" instead of a questionable ejection?

Perhaps this ref. needs to retire /or/ the officiating sport of wrestling is not for his ego.....If it's one of the ref's that I may be thinking about he is a good ref. but once you ? any of his calls he "has your number & will definitely make his judgements skewed for the other wrestler once you get on their "bad side." Just as in KSHSAA officiating umpires --- should be evaluated after every match by the head coach for that particular team----this could include both + feedback and improvement feedback. Just my .02.

I saw a coach get an offical warning for standing there with his fist in the air. Was he looking for a stalling call??? YES!
Who has not done that??
I think they called it a demonsterous act???
Never heard of it!

I don't know the circumstances either. But I doubt the ref is doing it for the "power." Maybe he's trying to give back to wrestling and doing his best with people screaming in his face all day. I know I had to" argue" a call during Districts. If you want to call it an argument. I requested a meeting, before leaving the mat, with the head ref so we could talk about it. Believe me, our "talk" was difficult with others yelling and screaming their thoughts. I tried to be a professional about it but at the same time explain, per the rules, what I saw was called incorrectly. We worked it out and wrestled from there.

Got home and watched the D1 finals and found my self acting like I was coaching matside. On a questionable call, my boy commented that if it was a kids match, you'd have someone standing in the middle of the mat screaming like a madman. I think to many of our kids coaches are setting a bad precedent with their behavior matside. You don't see that behavior at the top level but for some reason it's ok with kids wrestling. From what I've learned, sometimes those that yell the loudest or act the toughest are the most weak!.

In the end it's still kids wrestling and I hope we conduct ourselves in a way that the kids will look up to us.

I think the level of the ref is alot different and there is a review committiee that reviews the matches and critiques the refs like in the NFL and other major sports.
There is no critiques or oversite or follow up at this level. But there is the almighty stop sign called MY JUDGEMENT!

Jon,
I am not going to debate the facts of the situation that lead to convening of the grievance committee. But I do want you to know that Mr. Reynolds was offered a fair appeal as described and allowed by the District 1 standing rules.

From the District 1 Standing rules:
11. District 1 qualifying tournament grievance committees:
Sub-District Tournament
Tournament Director
Sub-District Director
Tournament’s Head Official

District Tournament
Tournament Director
Both Sub-District Directors
District Director
Tournament’s Head Official

The deck was not stacked one way or the other in this case. I would like to say that I have tremendous respect for Mr. Reynolds. He genuinely cares about the kids in his club and about the sport we love. The thousands of hours a year, at great personal expense, that Mr. Reynolds volunteers is an asset to USAWA-KS and District 1 more specifically. While I wish this situation did not happen on Saturday...it was a teachable moment for "all" involved.

Mark Stanley

You were making a good argument for Mr. Reynolds right up to this point, "Let me saw first that I've been thrown out of a few tournaments".

To say I was treated fair, is far from the truth! Not one person took in consideration what was on the line! My club (brand new this year) can't believe what happened and the way it happened. My kids parents are bewildered as to what could have provoked such a response from a ref, and I recieved my first warning from a ref and my first discharge from a tournament in 10 seconds. We started our club THIS year! I have acted as the head coach/part time club pres/fund raiser organizer/ and dad. I've put my heart and soul into trying to make this a success.Everyone from our organization has! I'm heart broken that I can't help these boys achieve there dreams.I write these words with mixed emotions. I never missed a practice or a tournament.I gave 100% of myself to this sport over the last year. What I have given over the last year does not deserve to be taken away by a ref that was having a bad day. After I left our meeting I found out that this particular ref(on mat 3) had a fight with another coach( and several arguments over the day) ON THE MAT. He said and I quote," Why do you have to be such as A##." The coach responded by saying shut the F up. This was a heated discussion that of course took place at the table.No one was thrown out. I was told " i'm afraid your a victim of circumstance."Beacuse I didn't approach the table with my concerns. Yet later I found out that it was a judgement call and I couldn't call the ref over for a judgement call. I can only call him over for a rules question. The individuals who sealed my fait even said they were in agreement that there was no raised voices or curse words used when I addressed the ref.SO everyone who reads this post can be the judge.One more thing was also pointed out.I was not a coach involved with the match beacuse I was not mat side ( 2 other coaches were) so that should make me a by stander just like any other coach. How many of you have voiced your opinion while watching a match and got thrown out of a tournament! Very few I bet. I was singled out by a pissed off ref who took his anger out on me. " You know what really happened ref and so does every other coach who saw what happened Saturday. You should be ASHAMED of yourself."

I wish my boys the best of luck this weekend! As someone once said to me,"The cream will rise to the top." So I have faith they will do just fine without me mat side. Besides Champions are made during the week not on the weekends!

it's unfortunate that this happened, but there is a chance for learning here. spend more time figuring that out, than trying to sort out saturday's events. the damage is done, nothing will change between now and then. make sure the kids on your club know they should settle in on the mat. i know it's easier said than done, but that's a start on learning something from this.

Mark you know as well as I the only people who have takin a hard lesson are the team wrestlers and on coaches son! Whats the Coaches lesson here Whatever you do do not a approch a ref with a reasonable question in a reasonable tone or else! ALL I'M SAYING IS THE PUNISHMENT SHOULD FIT THE CRIME AND CURRENTLY THIS POOR BASTERD IS GETTING A RAW DEAL ONLY BECAUSE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS COMING WEEKEND!

wow. and I thought it was bad when I had a ref come up to me at our districts and tell me that he had thrown a coach out for cursing him on the mat and that the coach was allowed to stay. I had a wrestler thrown out for cursing his opponent (rightfully so and if the ref hadn't done it i would have) then an hour later an opposing wrestler turns during a break in the match and starts screaming at me and doesn't even get an unsportsmanlike against him. there is no consistency at all. CBR's dad, it is to bad that this has happened to you and your wrestlers. Tell your asst. coaches that if they run into a bind at state to look me up. I would be glad to help out in any way I can.

Jerry Dale
Team Xtreme

Hotrodder is right on the money here.
The only thing that I want to point out here is why does all of the sudden everything have to change because we are in the weeks of the qualifying tournaments? I think the refs need to step up their game and know that emotions will be high and instead of coming down harder on everyone they may want to be a little more understanding of the situations. Maybe add an extra ref or two to float and keep the refs fresher and keep the head ref available to move from mat to mat and assist the other refs.
And who holds the refs accountable? How can we hold the refs accountable?
If the refs are going to step up and hold people more accountable of the rules then how can we do that of them?
Isn’t it stated in the rules that ALL refs should dress in the exact same attire and have their refs’ numbers visible? Where was that this weekend? Do we send the ref away from the mat and start a timer and if he cannot report back to the mat ready to officiate then he forfeits his pay???
What about asking a ref for his name? I’ve done this and got a warning! That’s a total crock! Every year we have to vote on who we chose to be in state events. They don’t wear their numbers or give their names so it’s hard to hold them accountable through that process.
What about the use of profanity by a ref? A ref telling a coach to shut the hell up or to stop his bit@#ing and complaining?
I know good refs are hard to find, and the pay isn’t the best, and we don’t want to chase the good ones away…. Blah blah! But not only are the paid to be there and over see the rules of the match they are paid to be impartial. Some of these refs walk onto a mat with a chip on their shoulder because they see a coach in the corner that is as knowledgeable as they are and know that they are going to have to be prepared to do the job they are being paid for cause that coach will hold them accountable. So instantly they are defensive and if and when it comes time to explain a call or confront that coach they are quick to wave them off or say it was a judgment call so they don’t have to explain themselves.
I would like Ned or someone walk me through how to handle a ref using profanity or something like this before we see it this weekend because we saw plenty of it last weekend.

Yep, the numbers don't lie 4 ejections all season, then 7 more since qualifying tournaments started.

Here is the only thing I am going to say the officials are doing wrong. They are letting some kids and coaches get away with poor behavior throughout the year, and then don't want to put up with it at the end of the year. Like my daddy alwasy said it is easier to be an a-hole and ease up than to be easy and then have to be an a-hole.

Consisteny is the key....Do it the same way the whole year.

Jerry, don't threaten those poor kids like that!!!!!!! It is bad enough that their coach got tossed, now you threaten to coach them in his place!!!

While we're talking about this, it's pretty easy to figure out which wrestler was ejected when we post their team, age and weight. Either we might as well post their names or not post the age and weight.

Most of the refs do a good job of taking care of situations like this. Some do not. Without having been there, but hearing witnesses tell the story, this is obviously a situation where the coach needs to be reinstated.
We ran into a few refs that were pretty trigger happy at Ottawa on Sunday. While never raising my voice, and asking why, when two 6u kids were flopping around, with my kid having a chicken wing in, my kid was given a penalty point for running it illegally, I was given a warning for "questioning his interpretation of a rule" or something like that. I could only smile and walk away.


One other point that I VERY gingerly tried to make with a ref that has a burr under his saddle for us is this: when you are awarding points, you need to verbalize it. Each ref awards points for takedowns/control differently, so when my kid is awarded a 2 point reversal, by the referee holding up two fingers, and not by saying "2!!!", my kid has no idea to unlock his hands, and the bottom kid has no idea to give up his defense and belly down before he gives up back points. I was told "if you kid has been in the practice room, he should know". Again, I could only smile and walk away....After the fact, I wanted to go and give him a copy of the NCAA D1 finals matches DVD, and have him listen to those refs scream things like "We're neutral guys" or "ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE" on back counting. Apparently, the D1 guys should NOT know, but 6u kids SHOULD.......

I have always told our kids for years that if a ref makes a call that makes them lose the match, well they shouldn't have put themselves into that position that a judgement call ends their day.

I still think that is a good way to think of it.

But with that being said thee are so many 1-2 point matches this time of year that does throw a curve ball into that thought process. We all have been on both sides of the coin with a judgement cal.

This is a horrible thing to happen to a coach/father at this time of the year. Lets all hope that the appeal process works and that many years of USW support and great service is taken in consideration over one call made in the heat of the moment.

I would think there is something to be learned by this incident, but to deny a coach/father from being able to watch his kid(s) at state seem to be extreme for a (I assume) a first time offense.

Just my opinion

I think what you will find is that as the season enters the qualifying tournaments particularly the matches affecting potential medals and advancement, that coaches from around the state tend to get way more vocal, argue a lot more, argue a lot longer, and generally act in ways that they wouldn't typically do during the regular season when the stakes aren't as high. This of course has a correlational effect to the number of ejections in post season.

Should officials take into consideration what is at stake? Sure, I think any good official recognizes that situations heat up as the season comes to an end. On the other hand there has to be a point at which it is no longer acceptable to continue a conversation that isn't going to change a call that was made on the mat (which is almost never). Basically if it gets to the point where an official issues a warning to a particular coach, the is really the verbal cue that the conversation is over, coaches go back to the corner, and the match continues on. Unfortunately in some situations that warning doesn't seem to be enough and a coach continues to try and extend the conversation either about the call itself or the warning they received, and the inevitable ejection comes.

To be perfectly honest, there exists a number of high school level coaches around the state who get away with approaches to the table in violation of the misconduct rule, basically because officials want and need their votes for postseason. This of course is a flaw in our post season assignment system, but my point really is that some people seem to think that officials are mean, nasty, and overbearing, when in fact if officials around the state truly assessed the penalties exactly by the book, you would be absolutely amazed at the number of team point deductions and possible coach ejections at the high school level that would occur year over year.

At the kids level officials tend to be even more lenient towards coaches. This happens basically because of the recognition that kids level coaches are universally unpaid volunteers, and as such may not in fact be as cognizant of the rules as their high school counterparts. Also factoring into play is the unsaid and unwritten notion that ejecting coaches and competitors from kids tournaments may lead to that club not attending said tournament in future years, and therefore much effort is made to avoid this situation if at all possible.



I'll quote for you a passage directly out of the KSHSAA Sportsmanship manual



In other words, by making the action you described, or by verbally or physically counting back points to an official, yelling things like "make the top guy work" or any number of other such acts, that person has ceased to be a coach, and has now decided to assign himself the responsibilities of the official which is clearly not his role. Generally speaking, most officials will ignore or brush this off as just spirited or excited coaching. In some cases it clearly goes beyond that.

I don't think there is a coach in the state that would really appreciate it if an official decided during the course of a match to take the whistle out of his hand or mouth, look directly at the opposite competitor of that coaches wrestler, and tell him what move to do next like "Hey red, shoot a double leg, good now run a half nelson" In other words, coaches wouldn't like it if officials were coaching up the wrestlers, so why in the world would you think its okay for a coach to tell an official how to officiate?

Anyway I apologize for the long winded rant, but sometimes things need to be said, and the berating of Kansas officials on this site really gets annoying and old as the season wears on, particularly when most of it is generally unwarranted.

What about when it is warranted? Like in this instance.

The problem is that the tournaments don't always follow the rules and have a grievance committee like they are supposed to, that allows some of these officials to over react like this.

Well knowing the official who is the subject of this topic, I think the word overzealous is completely off base. In fact said official is one the good ones in his area that I have recommended for kids tournaments many times over the years. He knows his stuff and generally isn't subject to rash decisions and fly the by the seat of his pants ejections. As a matter of fact this may have been the first ejection he has given in a several years.

I also have complete faith in Mark Stanley and anyone whom he would select to be part of his committee which includes Denny Hensley who has not only officiated countless National tournaments and Kansas Kids State tournaments, but will also be the head official of this years State tournament. If these guys felt the the ejection was warranted, then I would say there is a truly good chance that things may not have been as innocent as they were portrayed to be here on this forum. This is part of the reason why the bickering that goes on about officiating on this forum is tiresome, because almost no one gets the whole story and no one is privy to the context that surrounds a particular situation

Wow
Then wouldn't it be funny to see video of these refs actions put on a site like youtube and then links posted on here. You can do the samething for coaches. I don't care. Over the last year or so I here is what I have seen
Refs put their hands on coaches or wrestlers. Grabbing of the arm or finger pointing to the chest.
Refs advising a wrestler during a match.
The smell of alcohol on a ref.
Numerous counts of profanity to coaches and even table workers.
Have I seen coaches do the exact same thing...
Well all except about two of them.
But my point is there is a checks and balances system for a coach or a wrestlers behavior.
Where is that for same system for a ref.
When a ref behaves like this what action can be taken from our end.
I did hear of one tournament this year where a ref was asked to leave but I don't know for sure.
I know everyone can get passionate even a ref but couldn't it be argued that they should be held to an even higher standard then a coach or a wrestler.
I'm not saying all refs are bad and I understand a guy can have a bad weekend.
But shouldn't there be some sort of checks and balances system or a way to hold these people to a standard and be able to provide HONEST feedback to them without the fear of not being able to coach your team the following week cause a ref is a little to pridefull to admit he made a mistake.

Well then that settles it. wrestlingspectat. If you know the guy then the coach must be in the wrong. Please forgive me I was not aware that you knew the official which of course to be repetative means Cody was wrong and should have been ejected. Now I get it. By the way, who are you??

I see what you mean here and I don't completely agree with you, but that is part of coaching in every sport. The coach has to at some point have some interaction with the ref. Now how he does it will be the difference of its effectiveness.

Can you honestly say in a scramble you have never stood up and said thats 2 thats 2. I don't think anyone that has ever sat at matside can answer no to that question.

I don't think any coach tries to assume the role of the ref, they are just trying to help the kids get what point might be owed to them.

I had one match this weekend a kid had another pinned three different times, stacked completely. The ref was slow to get in position and although counted near fall but no pin was awarded. I didn't go goofy and yell and I didn't even challenge the ref, but I did go to the 2 refs taking a break at that same mat and asked them what they saw just to make sure I wasn't being to biased. They both said wow that kid was pinned three different times. I asked them to go talk to the young official to help coach him through being in the right position and they looked at me like I was crazy and didn't do anything.

Watching the same mat later that day almost the exact same thing happened with the same ref. That coach did go crazy and a big battle at the table kicked off. I heard the ref say "every call I make is the right call because I made and that is it" I just laughed and walked on.

I witnessed the whole thing and Cody Reynolds didnt do a damn thing or raise his voice at all!If anything the ref threatened Cody by raising his fist when he gave him the warning.

I'll try to answer these in the order received.



I of all people realize there are some officials across the state that do not measure up to the standards which are asked and required of them in their position. The NFHS, KSHSAA, and even USAWKS are very clear about every issue that encompasses the officials in this state. To be perfectly honest is bothers me very much even to see an official not wearing the correct uniform. I've seen guys out there with wind pants on, wrestling shoes of neon green to bleach white color, and everything in between. It is really not in my capacity to tell these guys that they do not conform to the rules set forth for them.

The list which you provided to me, does not come as a shock to me at all. If an issue comes up that you feel strongly about concerning an official comes up then you should perhaps take it upon yourself to bring the matter to the attention of the people whom it is relevant. At a kids tournament, that would be the tournament director and then to the State, at a high school tournament, that would be the tournament director or the athletic direction, and if no joy there, then the next step up is KSHSAA. Serious issues like alcohol use, tobacco use, and physical assault are things that really should be brought to attention, and yet for some reason they are not, and where does the responsibility for that lay? Answer: on the people who choose to stay silent about it.

Understand that the serious issues I was talking about are not the same as just generally being upset at a call that an official made and then coming here to blast them. If an official blatently disregards the standards which they are expected to be held to then by all means, bring it up and make it known, if an official makes a call on that mat that is questionable, this really shouldn't be the place to come and whine about it.



Now I did not say that Cody should have been ejected because I myself was not standing there listening to the conversation. What I did say was that he was ejected, and the committee which was composed of some highly respected individuals both from the officiating perspective and the direction of tournaments perspective, felt strongly enough to agree with it, I would say that is a good indication that what did happen was warranted. I doubt very much that this group of individuals are going to stake their reputation on an issue like this and then go in the back and pop a bottle of champagne while bragging about how they are infallible. Now as far as who I am, let's just say that you know me quite well.



As I stated, a coach just being excited and being caught in the moment yelling out things like "back points" and "watch the knee", is commonplace and frankly is harmless, and understood. What we are talking about however is those that take it upon themselves to direct the official in his duties. Utterances like "you gotta make X wrestler work" or "he has to take him back down to the mat" aren't really in the same realm. Those types of statements are directed solely at the official and not meant for advocation. Certainly you can understand the difference.



LOL, Lord forbid if an official actually gives the correct signal for a coach misconduct (Arm raised 90 degrees to the body with a closed fist in in fact the correct signal for coach misconduct aka warning). As for him not doing anything wrong... if he was questioning a judgment call, then that would be clue #1 that he was in fact doing something wrong, #2 would be to continue a conversation after a misconduct warning is given.

Look it's fairly simple. There are new officials, bad officials, mediocre officials, ok officials, good officials, great officials, and outstanding officials. I tend to believe that there tend to be more officials on the okay to great side here in Kansas than there are on the bad and mediocre side. The job of a wrestling official is far more challenging than most people who've never done it could understand. Wrestling doesn't have a replay system and it really wouldn't help even if it did, because the judgment aspect of wrestling is somewhat unique compared to most other sports. The definitions of a variety of situations simply cannot be put down in black and white like they can on other sports. The nature of the judgment lends itself to situations where one person sees something one way and another person sees it completely opposite.

I stand by my statement which is that this forum should not be the place to come and bag on officials for calls they make which are in most cases completely in line with and according the rules set forth. As far as a checks and balance system is concerned, it's actually pretty simple, if an official doesn't measure up the standards expected of them, then the blame for having him at a tournament falls #1 On the coaches whom through their actions have either run off the good ones from the kids level into high school where they don't have to deal with this, or #2 The person in charge of getting and hiring the officials for their tournament. Your checks and balances come from your active feedback to tournament directors saying "Could you please try to get (insert name here) to come work this tournament"

The one last thing I will tell you is that kids tournament directors have a heck of a time finding well qualified officials to do kids work anymore. Ask yourself why this might be the case? I'll give you a hint: many officials don't want to put up with the abuse they take from kids level coaches, have their name dragged through the mud on this website, or have videos of them showing up on Youtube. Be thankful the group of officials who still do come out week after week to do this, because the $125-$150 most kids officials get paid for a weekend can't really make up for that, those still out there do it for the love of the sport just like the coaches, competitors, and fans.

... End Novel

Who the hell is wrestling testicle anyway!!I wanna word with him Saturday.

So you are saying if you kids that you are coaching get taken down and gets a 2 on 1 put on him and get the back leg hooked and the other kid sits on your ankle for a full period with no warning for stalling being issued, then reverses you and does the same. You pick down and half way through the third he finally gets a warning for riding your kid the same way and then time runs out.

You wouldn't say one word about him stalling to the ref?

I don't buy it.

And the comeback saying the ref would take care of it holds no weight. There is only about 25% of the refs that would handle that correctly. The rest just issue warnings late in the third.

everyone who thinks we have bad refs in ks needs to take the test, and referee next year. everyone on here post your name, i will keep a list and sign you all up next year. i agree with most of you we need a grading system. but the main thing i think everyone is missing here is don't argue after a warning. right or wrong i don't care you can't fix the damage done. you can learn 1 thing for this weekend, DON'T ARGUE AFTER A WARNING!!! after this weekend, step up work as a ref, and help implement a grading system. by some of the comments on here i can tell that cody's group of friends would be way more at fault, of siding with a good ol' boy, than the committee accused.

nice language, nice maturity, come on people.

referees:i was told something this year by a long time ref: he tells referees when he is head ref. "sell your calls, give an explanation, and sell it" "talk respectful, if you want respect, you had better give it" " if you do those two things, and a coach is out of line, give 1 warning, then boot" it's pretty straight forward stuff.

coaches: i was told this a long time ago by an old coach we all know: " don't argue a judgement call, first reason is you can't, it's like arguing balls and strikes in baseball, automatic ejection, second reason is, IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD." " if you want to talk to the referee, invite him to the table and calmly ask him to explain the rule on the situation, always be respectful." pretty straight forward stuff.

BE RESPECTFUL.

Wasn't he a Greek wrestling god?

He was nutz about wrestling....

Plum giddy. He always had a ball when he was out wrestling on the stacked hay (no mats back in those days).

I have told many people, including standingup at the state body meeting, and asked this question: "Why can't officials have names on their shirts, instead of numbers?"

I can picture a dozen GOOD officials, and I don't have any idea what their name is. And I have NEVER taken the time to write down his number and look up his name. I can also picture 5 or 6 officials that I think are complete idiots, but have never taken the time to look them up either. There are some that I know names of, on both sides of the fence, but there are more that I do NOT know, than those that I do know.


I just don't think we are asking too much for them to put names on their shirts.

This would make it much easier on coaches to make knowledgeable recommendations for state officials.

just ask, most will tell you who they are.

Actually the by-laws were amended this year to strike out language saying that Kids officials should wear numbers on their shirts. This was done for a variety of reasons.

#1. Many officials weren't wearing the numbers to begin with, particularly the longer tenured officials who tended to do more middle and high school work than kids, and he didn't want to maintain several different shirts.

#2. Many coaches never took the time to use the numbers UNLESS they had a gripe about an official which not surprisingly most often came from a judgment call situation they witnessed.

There are other reasons, but the point was they simply weren't needed, and I don't believe names on the shirt really are either.

It seems pretty straight forward to me, that if a coach would like to know what an officials name is, they could simply ask said official in a polite manner, and I'm reasonably sure that most of them would freely give it.

More than that, perhaps if people were truly serious about getting the best officials they could both for their own tournaments and the post season tournaments, that they should take the time to approach the officials that they truly believe are doing a good job and have a conversation with them, and get there name. I promise you most officials won't bite you, they are people and fans of wrestling just like you. I know from personal experience that there are few things more satisfying to officials than to have a complete stranger come up to them and thank them or complement them on the job they are doing. I also know that many officials are more than happy to discuss rules and concerns that you may have, if they are in a position to do so, such as they are off the mat on break.

How many coaches have actually read the rule book from the NFHS, I mean Kansas Kid's adopted the rule book as their rules with a few modifications. It clearly states in the book what coaches misconduct is...

Rule 5, Section 5 "Coach Misconduct"
Art. 1 . . . Coach Misconduct occurs when a coach improperly questions the referee.
Art. 2 . . . When a coach requests a conference with the referee regarding a possible misapplication of a rule, and it is determined there was no misapplication or when, during a conference, the coach questions the judgment of the referee, coach misconduct shall be called. The coach misconduct penalty shall always be charged to the head coach.
Art. 3 . . . Coach misconduct results in the following:
a. First offense - warning;
b. Second offense - deduct one team point;
c. Third offense - deduct two team points and removal of the head coach for the remainder of the day. The penalty sequence starts anew each day. (See penalty chart)

"Improperly" is underlined as it is underlined in the rule book. I know it's everyone's favorite term, but "improperly" is also a judgment call as to if it was properly or not for the reason it was stopped, how the conference was asked for (or wasn't), or probably even the way (demeanor) it was asked could be construed differently.

Now for the kid's modification on ejections...
Rule 8 An official ejection will follow an official warning, except in the case of flagrant misconduct. Anyone officially ejected from a tournament must leave the building, and will not be allowed to participate in and/or attend any other sanctioned event or activity. This sanction shall be effective for:
1st occurrence – 8 days
2nd occurrence – 24 days
3rd occurrence – one calendar year from date of ejection

I don't know about you, but I am more worried about getting my tail to the next match I am coaching, rather than asking a ref who he is. Especially one that I had a disagreement with. What do you think he is thinking? Wanting to look up his address so I can teepee his house? You know what happens when you tell a ref you don't like him.

"Hey ref that I just debated why it took you 3 seconds to get down on the mat and start the backpoints count, would you mind me asking your name, I'd like to send you a Christmas card"

I'll take it a step further. Make coaches where name badges also. If the refs would like to know who we are, that is fine with me.

It seems to me that if you are polite and conduct yourself as a gentleman without cussing or yelling then no problems should arise. I have read this post and can see both sides ::refs being yelled at all day equals quick judgements and bad calls :: coaches getting bad calls and kids not listening all day equals quick tempers:: the only difference is most coaches are not being paid for their time or efforts. Refs are paid to be in charge of the situation and in that aspect should be able to control their emotions and demeener. I do believe that there should be a point system in place for refs after every tournament one coach from each school should rate each ref on a scale. Everybody makes mistakes and loses thier cool we are human but plain incompetancy should not be tolerated and this type of system would weed that out

mike pirl

I understand what you are saying about getting to know the ref and building a mutual respect. But I can tell you that some refs get very defensive when asked their name. I had a very bad experience with a young ref at the Mulvane. We had a conversation about a call.
I called him to the table and said:

"Sir, can I ask you in your opinion what made that move potentially dangerous. The reason I ask is cause you were in a better position then I and I want to be able to explain it to my wrestler so it does not happen again."

His reply: "COACH, if you are questioning my judgement then I would suggest you walk your happy self right back over to your corner and stop wasting my time!"

"I am not questioning your judgement and I am not argueing the call. I am asking what made that move dangerous."

"He had the arm in an unsafe position."

"Really?"

"Really!"

"OK!" Said sarcasticly

"Coach! Get back in your corner and shut the hell up before you piss me off and you end up looking like an ass!"

"REALLY?"

"Really!"

After the match everyone shook hands and I walked out to the ref and very calmly said. "I notice you dont have a number on your shirt, can I get your name?"

"Why?"

"Cause I think you were totally out of line with your attitude and profanity and I want to make sure that my club never uses you at one of our tournaments!"

"Thats it coach! Thats your warning! One more word and you are gone!"

I smiled, turned and walked away! I have his name and my only action againest this guy is that we will NEVER us him and he was not on our list of refs submitted for state.
Yet Im the bad guy and I had to be treated that way in front of my wrestlers and parents.

I know this is only one example of so very many but long story short...
Please put names or numbers back on the shirts cause that is one of the only courses of action that we have as coaches to let some of these guys know that they can not treat people like this and they should be held accountable!

Lance Tracy

I want to clear some things up! I wasn't coaching this match. I had two coaches in the coaches square and I was standing a few feet behind them ( common practice and the excepted standard at kansas wrestling tournaments). In fact when I was warned the ref in question said, and I quote " your not even involved in this match, warning." How can I appeal to the table if I wasn't even coaching the match. Furthermore you can't bring a ref to the table for a judgement call only a rules infraction. How many of you as a fan of a football game ever trashed a ref and been thrown out. or been to a D1 basketball game and heckled refs. It doesn't happen. Are we not allowed to voice our opinions on the sidelines as long as it's with in reason ( keep in mind I never raised my voice or cursed.) You can even ask the head ref beacuse he was standing 5 feet from me when this happened. He even said that i wasn't loud and out of control. Heck I felt like he was the only one who had my back. To address the hand in the air with a fist, that never happened. I was holding up two fingers to indicate a takedown should have been awarded.

you're making it too difficult. just ask! if you don't feel comfortable asking the ref ask around someone knows them.

Here is my two cents...When I officiate I could care less what is being yelled from the corner. When I am in the corner I lobby hard for calls and for my wrestler. My opinion is that coaches should do that. Watch the NCAA wrestling tournament, watch the NCAA basketball tournament. The officials job is inside the circle unless the coach is using profanity or steps into the wrestling area. If the coach tables an official, the official then should listen and not argue. The less the official says the more likely the coach will be defused. I thank the coach and tell him that I am sticking with my call and I go back to the circle. An official should NEVER take anything said during a match personally. They are paid professionals and should be held to a higher level of conduct than our volunteer coaches. A good officials doesn't listen to the corners, doesn't argue, and leaves his emotions in the car before he walks in.

It sounds like the official got personal and took it personally. He should have never gone to the corner and engaged himself in the discussion.

WELL SAID Mr. Cokeley !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what do you want to bet? the official has thought about what happened and probably has thought about what to do differently.

there should be a committee dictating what to do differently, but there is not.

sounds like the official was disrespectful, many have explained that they didn't feel the coach was.

how many coaches are disrespectful each tournament? how many officials are disrespectful at each tournament? how many officials fall into cokeley's "paid professional" status? how many are doing it for extra cash? how many coaches really know the rules? how many are "paid" volunteers? how many officials have been officials more than 10 years? how many coaches have wrested/ coached for more than 25 years? how many times have you said "if i were the ref i would toss him"? how many coaches want to see "certain coaches" thrown out, yet are apalled when it happens to them? how many of us have "BAD DAYS"?

how many of you warn your kids? how many ground or punish after 1 warning?

WOW there is A lot of hows in that on.

I think All coaches yell.I think all refs have bad days.I just think the 2 had a run in at A bad time.

i think you are right, it's unfortunate and i'm sorry it happened the way it did. i just think some folks are making it seem like, every ref is bad, and coaches never make mistakes. i have been on both sides of this fence, and can tell you both are very frustrating at times, but no one is perfect.

I couldn't Agree with you more maybe we missed my point in this post. The Ref was not wrong i just think he was tired, having a bad day what ever. the point of this post is explain to the upper powers who have a change to right this wrong that alot of us saw what happened and that it was blown completely out of porportion. The ref is not a bad ref not at all but the coach in question handled himself in a manner that didn't warrent be thrown out of any tournament let alone the biggest of the year thats obserd. And ts not to late to correct it.

Well it goes both ways just like coaches! Some that are over the top great and some that just get over stressed( I won't say bad because there is no way I would call a volunteer coach or any ref bad considering what they go through every weekend!) I have seen refs that get angry even when a coach simply asks for a clarification on the score. A lot of heated arguments are due to table workers also. Don't think however I am knocking the tableworkers either becuase I have been one and it is super tough! That leads to the next point, the awesome refs. The first time I worked a table the refs were completely wonderful and made sure that we did not miss one point! As with EVERYTHING else in life there is good and bad! Everyone should be accountable for thier actions also though. Heck I have seen some really aggressive, i rate, out of line coaches also. Maybe coaches and refs should both wear either name tags or numbers. Maybe then complaints could be handles as they should be by a third party who is not in the heat of the argument. If this was the case then maybe we wouldn't have coaches who are trying to advocate for thier wrestlers missing the state tourney due to thier passion for the sport and we also would not have refs attacked for thier every call! I know that we have a deal that the coach lets the wrestler calm down before discussing the match for this very reason! Emotions are too high during the match! I know that resolving in this mannor will not provide for an immediate solution to a bad call but how many refs overturn a call in the heat of the match anyway?!? Not very many.

When a coach is given a warning by the referee, the coach has two options; stop the activity which he was warned about, or continue and suffer the consequences.

When a coach with the required coaches band on his wrist is standing mat side yelling instructions or questioning the referee the coach is attempting to affect the outcome of the match. If I am standing matside hollering "that is two" I am attempting to get the referee to see my point of view and affect the outcome of the match.

The same could be said for a participant, or a fan that is sitting matside are you gonna warn a fan for holding up there fingers indicating that two points should be awarded. Coaches sit mat side all year long. theres usally coaches all around the mats yelling all kinds of stuff within reason. Would you kick a wrestler out of a tournament for doing the same. How bout a mom of a kid. How many moms do you here screaming stuff at refs at tournaments. Do you see them get kicked out! Furthermore I didn't scream or raise my voice. Also how can I stop the activity if the ref never told me what I was warned for in the first place. He didn't say, " you have a warning for so and so." In fact if I would have asked what the warning was for he was gonna kick me out. I tried! He kicked me out before i could get on word out of my mouth. This whole incident stemmed from a previous match. Mine and other matches. It was his way of getting even. Where in the rule book does it say if you open your mouth after a warning you get tossed. What if I was saying I'm sorry. He wouldn't have know!

Little by little more details have come out during this thread to shed light on the whole incident.

I don't understand what's stopping this from being resolved by friday.

It has been resolved.

Always looking to be the monkey wrench aren't ya sport0? I'm with you CJA. The powers that be need to do the right thing.

i don't think we are thinking long term here. you can't re-do what's been done. then the next time, when it is something sooo serious that none of us can believe it happened and we DON'T "sweep it under the rug"/ "do the right thing", then it's discrimination.

"i just raised my voice a little", "i only said 1 bad word", "i didn't say THAT! i said "achoo"!", "i wasn't talking to you mr. referee" where do you draw the line? i don't know.

cbr is right worse infractions happen every tournament, and the violators always believe in their own innocence. i'm not saying what cbr did is right or wrong, nor the official. i'm saying you can't set the precedent by letting it go, just because "it could have been worse"

maybe the ejection should stand for the coach, and be lifted for the DAD.

This rule never seems to apply to the team of hard knox!!

There is a process in place to handle this and we will follow the process.

We have spent way to much time focusing on this, not enough on what a great weekend we are going to have.

Ned

Yea Ned besides isn't it funny how everyone has such wonderful cure all's the week of state! Some how state just brings out the creative side of everyone!! I agree!! LETS WRESTLE!

I'm still trying to get past the spelling and grammar in the original post! Come on.... I know A LOT of you were thinking the same thing!

Huh? The original as in 4 pages and 4 days ago? Have no opinion on this one way or the other as I wasn't there. Thought this is a good time, however, since I know he is prob checking this topic, to tell CBR thanks for something he did at last years State Tournament. My son had just wrestled his son and immediately following the match, he approached my son and had some very nice and supportive words for him. Don't know exactly what was said but my son remembers this to this day so obviously it made an impact. So, a year late, thank you CBR for your high level of sportsmanship that day to a kid who you had nothing to gain, but showed you do know it is about the kids, wherever their from.

If you continue to be a member of this discussion forum, you are going to have to understand one thing: not all wrestlers, wrestling fans, wrestling coaches, wrestling parents, or wrestling officials are Ernest Hemingway. Many of them are not even close, but that is alright. Every one of them is passionate about the toughest sport that an adolescent or young adult can compete in. I do not grade them on their writing skills, I grade them on their loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity and personal courage. These are the seven core army values, and as long as they emulate these values, I am appreciative of their service in the sport of wrestling. Some of us stray at times, I know that I have, but in the end, there are few communities of practice that emulate these values in a manner that the soldiers of our military could be more proud of.

Most of us are real paople,we do not look though the forums to look for misspelled words or how they say it.

It is sad when people try to judge some one off spelling.

There was a coach ejected from D2 Districts and it was made right.
Why can't we make this right.

Speling? Wat are you tacking abuot! Rasslers, and, Wrastling fans undurstend that not aveeryone can spel korrectly. We except and expect it. Its like goin on the mat. It's just you and your pensil, or tiperiter, in this kase. Sure mistackes are going to heppin, butt you lirn from thim and try to do bitter nix time. Seddle dun and engoy the furem.

Different situations require different results. We don't know what circumstances surrounded the issue in D2.

Madman, why don't you be a man and sign your name. Hiding like a little coward behind a screen name that you use one time. Shame on you!

Come on Beeson, thees are sinsativ timz and their is no reazon to bee pickn on Nix. By the way Nix, you are one of my favorite all time posters. I hope little Nix is doing well.

WOW!Some of these people think this is Facebook.Let's just put all our info here.I want Beeson to put his criminal background and his employer before I give out any info.

Too funny

Shawn Bloomfield
IWC

I believe that there is some validity to Mr. Beeson's comments. I also realize that some individuals do not sign their names because they haven't figured out that part of building their individual profile. BLUF (bottom line up front), if you know how to sign your name to your profile, you should. No one will ask for your social or your date of birth. I originally did not have my name signed to my profile, because I didn't catch it when I built my profile. I am glad I figured out that I missed it, as I have no problem posting my thoughts, right or wrong, and my name stands behind it.

here we go!

No they will just run a background check on you and post it to the board as has been done!

No Criminal Background and Currently Unemployed.

I have NO problem with people posting thoughts and opinions without signing their name. I DO have a problem with someone attacking a child, coach, or club without signing their name.

Now that I have given what you have asked for, what is your name? I wont hold my breath.

People don't realize all you need is a name to find out EVERYTHING.So why take the chance of being harassed or put in danger because someone don't like your post.Don't make sense to me.TK Dist 2 all the way!!

I agree maybe not reinstate the coach, but def the dad. Let him at least go and watch, but maybe not coach. I can't imagine not bein there, and yeah if we like it or not we have all been there.Being so caught up and doin something we regret, I def have been, at least let him go watch!

Exactly!!
This act right here set the precedence for allowing this person back in either as a coach or a spectator.
No matter what the circumstances were...
There was a person OFFICALLY ejected and later allowed to return and will be at state!
We should not be allowed to treat this person any differently!

Just who is this Ernest Hemingway fellow? And what weight does he wrestle?

This person most likely went through the appeals process and won his appeal at whatever level it got to. There was nothing stopping the coach of this conversation from following through with the prescribed methods of appeal all the way up to the State body.

They pretty much unzipped my fly when they ran my background for my security clearance. As I expected, they didn't find anything:).

Born in Oak Park, Illinois (1899)
Favorite Hobby - Writing (started his career at the age of 17 writing for a newspaper office in Kansas City)
Wounded in WWI after volunteering for the Italian army as an ambulance driver
Nobel Prize in literature in 1954
Favorite Band - Metallica ("For Whom the Bell Tolls")

All true, except for the last part, but he was well known for one of his most famous novels "For Whom the Bell Tolls".

As to your second question Jerry, I think he wrestled paper weight.

I want to know what does getting any have to do with this and how would you know?

This is from the "Forum Rules" link at the bottom of the page:

There are just two basic rules that are necessary to keep in mind. First, remember that this is a family oriented forum, and is regularly viewed by young wrestlers. Second, "cheap shots" will not be tolerated. If you are going to post a message critical of an individual, group or idea, you must give your true name and/or email address. Be willing to stand behind your comments, or keep them to yourself.

YEAH for "for whom the bell tolls" classic ACDC Hey wrong FORUM you wanted the WRESTLING MUSIC

Hemingway also got a 1 pound allowance because he wrestled in district Saturday and. 6 and under state. Sunday!

Jon,

ACDC did have their bells tolling alright, just a little further south, and from what I have been told, it is real hot down there.

thats it beeson i am changing my last name to nicks.

thanks redployd, little nix is fine, hope to see you all next year and good luck.

I was replying to CJA's comment about the ref not getting any posted on mar 22. I thought it was inappropiate for this forum also.

My email address is tgaymo@yahoo.com