Kansas triple crown

I have heard many coaches talk about this toward the end of the season. Is this something that some of the bigger tournaments are looking into. I think we have some of the best tournaments around like, derby, Maize, salina, park city and west kansas classic for the bigger ones. is there not a big tournament on the east side of the state in d1. would be cool to start the eastern kansas classic to. I hope sprawl grows next year. What are everyones thoughts on this.

It should never include invitationals! The ones that should count are folkstyle, freestyle and greco state tournaments.

I dis-agree. not all wrestlers do all that. My wrestler just does folkstyle then takes a much needed break from wrestling and plays baseball, basketball, football and enjoys being a 9 year old kid. I think we could come up with a triple crown that includes just wrestling folkstyle during wrestling season. all those invitaionals are the biggest tournaments in kansas and all produce i would say over 1000 wrestlers and to win those tournaments is an accomplishment. To win 3 of those tournaments would be more of an accomplishment. to win all of those tournaments would be awesome.

The goal is to promote Freestyle and Greco. Folkstyle has a strong center. I know ALOT of studs that can not win all three styles. I know alot of wrestlers that can win the rest of these tournaments pretty easily. Personally I do not like the idea of a series in Kansas.

I think we leave it the way it is. One of my wrestlers has brought home two out of the three state titles just once has has yet to earn the triple crown. Like Beeson said this encourages some folkstyle studs to move over and do FS/GR. By promoting FS/GR and getting more wrestlers involved in those we make our Folkstyle program even stronger. I think all the Studs in Folkstyle already head for the big Folkstyle Tournaments now. Lets keep it as a tool to improve our state's great wrestling system as a whole not just folkstyle.

Andrew Steele

We have one its called folkstyle state tournament.

That is why they give medals at all of those invitationals. To try to make a special award for one tournament only devalues the other tournaments being held on that same weekend. For those that complained about the cancelation of tournaments during this past season, it could be worse!

There already is a KS triple crown, just like there is a national triple crown. As mentioned it's folksytle state, freestyle state, and Greco state and it's a booger to win.

If you want a KS folkstyle series then organize and start one. I agree with Beeson I don't think it's needed, but if it increased participation in some way great.

But don't try to change the KS triple crown that exists.

I think its an awesome idea!
Take 3 or 4 or 5 of the bigger tournament that are spread out over the season and put a point sytem to the placing and give out awards to an over all SERIES points leader or give special awards to those that win all of them.
I have spoken to Hughbanks from Maize and some of the people from Derby about maybe considering something like this.

Consider this..
Take a few of the tournaments that give out awards that are above the average medal.

The Belt from Maize!
The Rings from Haysville!
The GIANT Medals from Derby!
Maybe the big trophies from Sprawl or the Classic?
Maybe the plaques from Salina?

These clubs work together to promote a series point system.
They could also go as far as supporting each other via table workers, satellite weigh ins, mats etc...
They all chip in purchase an overall award (singlets, jackets, bikes, GIANT TROPHIES or ALL THE ABOVE)for point leaders from either each age or weight or whatever.

What an additional and special incentive for our KS wrestlers.
Some of the states around us already do it with great success.
I also think that these tournaments could get even bigger then they already are and start drawing even more out of state tallent then they already do.

Look at JOC..
It is a bunch of clubs coming together and putting on one of the biggest tournaments of the year. We could so do that here in KS.

Consider this....

Most of these tournaments are starting to be too big as it is now. They can barely hold the tournament where they are now without people getting on here and complaining about space and time.

Why do we continue to try and make the awards bigger and bigger? Really, these are just a local tournaments. I think we make them bigger in our own minds then they really are.

Why do kids need an incentive to wrestle? What happened to doing it for the love of the sport?

These tournaments will never draw the out of state talent that we desire because of USA cards.

All of these fancy Jackets, Singlet, Bikes, and "crazy" trohies are gonna cost money. Where does that come from? You are going to have to up the entry fees to $45-$50. Now your not getting the best, you are getting the ones that can afford it.

I still say it is a bad idea. What happens when they get to high school and college and all they get is a 2" medal? Let's be realists...the awards are for the parents not the kids. What do we have left to award them with....Tiara's...Crown's?

Sadly, that is what our sport is becoming, all about the bling.

Chad
I disagree!
I think they wrestle for a bunch of COMBINED reasons!
Incentives, awards, trophies, a tee shirt, to be called "All American", the size of the printed bracket, competition, the love of the sport, cause their parents make them, or whatever...
Everyone wrestles for a different reason.

I guess I don’t think of big awards like other people do! I look at them as a "Congratulations and Thank Yous" from the club that held the tournament. Tell me some one that would rather be at a restaurant where the waitress says "thanks" or they say "Thank You Very for your business, I hope to see you again real soon"!
When you run a tournament you are in the service of others. It truly is a hospitality type event. You try very hard to make your tournament an Excellent EXPERIENCE! The award is just part of it.

Another point...
If you had to spend $35 for an Oklahoma card to go to JOC, Tulsa Nats, the Kickoff plus all the other OK tournaments then you wouldn’t do that? Sure you would!
I’m not trying to sound like Don King but whatever we can do to promote KS wrestling and its WRESTLERS is going to be a good thing somewhere down the road! It just takes someone to step up and be first to try!

"If you do what you have always done then you will get what you have always got"
Ks Wrestling is GREAT! Why not try to be even better?
Some people could jump on here and say well don’t start there, start here, or fix this first. Well lets all just start somewhere!

I like the idea, and I think it would be great to have a Eastern Kansas Classic, maybe in a location like Pitt State where the D1 subs are held. This could be early in the year so it would not compete with the other bigger tournaments. I also like the idea of awarding points for these tournaments and giving All American status to those who place in the top 6. And yes some kids wrestle for the love of the sport but those kids also are pretty proud of the "bling".

Now you are gonna get Cokeley started on the KSHSAA state medals that we've had for the last 100 years............

Are you kidding me? All American status? Salina brings in a few from MO, NE, OK, NE. Maize had a few from Colorado, can't recall where else. Good tourneys, yes, but winning them shouldn't put you in the "all american" category.

Tourneys that should make y ou an all american for getting on the podium:
Cliff Keen kickoff, though not nearly as big as it used to be
USJOC, not as tough overall as it used to be, but still tough
Tulsa Nationals, enough said
Reno Worlds
Iowa Folkstyle nationals. I have seen many times that this tourney was tougher than Tulsa
Schoolboy, Cadet, Junior Duals I believe the undefeated kids are proclaimed AA
Fargo
Liberty, in some weights, is nails tough.

I am sure I missed plenty, but comparing our state's "tough" tourneys to the above is crazy.

Get your kids gunned up for freestyle/greco. Help promote the other wrestling in state and in the country. If you want some great tournaments try the state tournament at the first of May, Southern Plains at the first of June, and Kids Nationals at the end of June. Less pressure, full mats, great fundamentals (don't get turned or pushed off the mat) and you are usually out early.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFPygMNAF8M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfmI0Alym0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riqy6oDR5kw

If that isn't good enough check out the Mango bros. in Greco.

This is what Greco is all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzd_2hmoU70

like i said travis by the time freestyle and greco get here we have moved on to another sport already. 6 months of wrestling is plenty for a 9 year old kid. i would wrestle freestyle and greco if the regular season wasnt 6 months long and didnt run into baseball season. i also agree with doug that you dont get all american status for our local tournaments. i really do like the idea of an eastern kansas tournament and hey if its at pitt then i can go back home to the gorillas. maybe then they can see what wrestling is all about and they can think about getting a college program. never hurts to try. dunston i know you can get that taken care of. i am all for kansas wrestling no matter what happens if we do or if we dont but i can tell you this that maize giving belts is 2nd to none. derby with those big medals, salina with the trophies and haysville with the rings is pretty cool.

That's the problem, people want to be given AA status, they don't want to earn it. If you want to be an AA go to a real national tournament. Don't make up some "series" or "National" tournament. If it's too hard, just make one up....are you kidding me?

In my opinion there are already too many tournaments claiming to give AA status to those who place.

If they want a triple crown go freestyle and greco. This is disipline where you can have the honor of some day posibly joining the ranks of the greats Gable, Brands bros, Sanderson etc. and of course representing the Red, White and Blue. The triple crown to me represents a more well rounded wrestler. Not to mention ITS A BLAST.

As far as All American Status? In my eyes USJOC, Kickoff, tulsa, Usa Nats. But Brute, Liberty, ETC. Are fun but really no tougher than any weekend tournament across KS, MO, OK, IA but not worthy of AA status.

agreed

Doug said it best. Depends on what bracket your in on each tournament. Joc, liberty, or kick off, depends on who is going. saying they are no tougher than a local tourney is crap! You place at any of these you've earned it. Don't demeaning the kids by saying, placing at one of these events isn't any tougher than placing on any given weekend. Want to make them tough show up, don't look for excuses not to go, they all have national status, no matter how you look at it!!!!

Tulsa Nationals is one of the biggest and most highly represented Nationals in the USA. I would hazard a guess that many of the 1st place finishers this last weekend would have been sitting in the bleachers after their second match there.

Get a grip, people don't fly or drive from CA, GA, NY, OR with kids who are wimps to go to these things. They are generally the best of the best or as good as it gets.

I'm not knocking Kansas Kids. I think we have good programs, wrestlers and supportive parents. The problem is we need to step outside the rectangle that is KS and open our eyes to the possibility of wrestling against people who challenge us not wrestle the same set for 7 months. How dreary is that. Weekend after weekend wrestling the same people over and over. Mind numbing and not very constructive. There are like 8 national tournaments within a easy days drive from just about anywhere in KS. Pick one and test your mettle, see what others do and learn to adapt. Hey if you lose out so what, your a lot better off with the experience than if you'd stayed at home and played it safe beating the same kids over and over.

All to often, I hear of the stage fright thing esp with the younger kids. They wrestled little tournaments all year did really well, get to district or state and bomb out. Why, most kids never had to stay overnight anywhere for tournament let alone wrestle two days in a row. Add to it the huge crowd,loud environment and a full bracket with lots of possibilities. They get overwhelmed and stressed out early. You go to big tournaments like USJOC, Big Horn Nationals or Tulsa Nationals your gonna get that experience and learn to deal with it well before state time.

That is the only reason I support having the 6U wrestle up at State, at least they get that type of experience out of the way when they are young so that when they are 8U they don't freak out when it counts. Other than that I really don't support it because it's a money thing and these kids with some exceptions are generally filler and fodder for the 8U group.

I know that if I had money and time we would wrestle every National Tournament possible just so we could get that kind of experience and exposure. Once you do a few of them you see how much they really improve your wrestler and their outlook on the sport.

There are several National Tourney Series or equivalents already. Anything we would do would pale to those. It might be nice to have a series situation like OK does, trying to get kids to at least wrestle in different parts of the state throughout the season would be a good start.

Greco and Freestyle are important and should be supported especially if your wrestler thinks they want to go to next level. The problem I see with that is there just aren't enough kids doing it to make it feel ligit. Aside from wrestling up a couple of age groups, my son prob would never have any competition in this state in his own age group. That means more travel more money and very little support from a club. Not a good formula for success, which is sad because of the experience that could be gained would be invaluable. If the Folkstyle season was about half as long or Greco/Freestyle ran concurrent with Folkstyle you might see an upswing in these other programs. But with baseball, swimming and other outdoor sports in the spring, your looking at a lot of conflicts and that is why those programs are on the short end of the stick. Kids want to be outside and they want to enjoy the weather. I agree these programs should be supported but not with a Triple Crown emphasis. It would be a hard sell to tell people these are the best kids out there when most are just who's available or left. Still a hardcore group and I salute them for their tenacity.

I agree AA status is too common. Lets just call it a series champion and leave it at that.
Sportsfan...
At 6, 8, maybe even 10 the "bling" matters. It might not be all about the bling but any kid that wins a Maize Belt or a Haysville or JOC Ring sure takes pride in their achievement and that why we give awards.

You said: "The problem I see with that is there just aren't enough kids doing it to make it feel ligit. Aside from wrestling up a couple of age groups, my son prob would never have any competition in this state in his own age group. That means more travel more money and very little support from a club. Not a good formula for success, which is sad because of the experience that could be gained would be invaluable."

Some brackets, I agree, but if you don't do it "in state", you don't get an opportunity to go to the likes of the Schoolboy, cadet, or Junior duals, where you WILL have all the "legitimacy" that you want and then some. Try 16 grueling FS Greco matches over 4 days, and two things will happen: 1- your kid will be sore 2- he will be a much better wrestler.

Spexy I was not talking USJOC, TULSA, KICKOFF being just like anouther weekend. But Liberty, Brute etc. For Instance Liberty this 70lbs Gamble, Spexarth, Joint, Jurgens, Lloyd, Trowbridge tough bracket yes but not near as tough as we all saw this year at Cliff Keen. But what about this years Sprawl nationals is it OK to just give your tourny a NATIONAL STATUS

K, give the bling to the 6 & 8 yr. olds and let the rest wrestle for fun and pride.

BLT,

I got an email from Jerry Scott who runs the Series in OK. He already has something set up for us (Kansas) as a series if we are interested. Might be well worth the time to discuss it with him and see where it leads. Email me at troy_fowler@hotmail.com and I will forward that information to you or anyone else who is interested.

doug747 said: Some brackets, I agree, but if you don't do it "in state", you don't get an opportunity to go to the likes of the Schoolboy, cadet, or Junior duals, where you WILL have all the "legitimacy" that you want and then some. Try 16 grueling FS Greco matches over 4 days, and two things will happen: 1- your kid will be sore 2- he will be a much better wrestler.

I agree and would love to wrestle in state. Tell me what am I to do with a 5'8' 200lb 10U HWT when the weight group stops at 140 and we have a 25lb weight spread limit. He wouldn't qualify anyway to move on unless he was the only one who showed up. This is just another instance where the weight/age rules are slanted against a wrestler who might otherwise be involved. I have also made it pretty clear that we will not wrestle up for the sake of doing so. Especially when the end result will be him sitting at home when the big meets roll around.

Sorry for the mix up. We all know tulsa is a beast. But Joc liberty panhandle etc. Are well established tournaments not saying for every bracket the comp is there, but take liberty 10u 70lb lots of tough kids. As for sprawl I would say no. Give it time and it could turn into a Joc or liberty but none stack up to tulsa. Also depends on what side of the bracket you wind up on, it does make a difference, on the outcome.

all I can say is that most maybe not all kids will wrestle a little harder to get that 4 inch medal, that belt, that trophy and so on more so than the 2 inch medal so yes it does make a difference. if thats what we have to do to get these kids to wrestle their hardest and make them better then so be it. i dont see how trying to start a series would not be making kansas wrestling better. sorry if you guys think i am against freestyle and greco because im not. I just know after folkstyle my kid is done and its time to move on to baseball. so for kids like that the series could be a good thing. something a little extra to shoot for and not have to go an extra month or 2 and not miss out on baseball. all i can say is those that dont want or like the series thing dont have to do it. its not mandatory just like i choose not to do freestyle and greco.

also would this not help some of you guys that are involved in dual teams select who you want to wrestle for you. some of these tournaments are tougher than the state tournament. i know nothing about the duals and how the kids are selected so i am not going to throw myself to the wolves but i dont see how a series would not help in that also.

Just wondering,what 3 tournaments in Kansas are tougher then the State Tournament?

Here is something to mull over. If you run a series, it will need to be spread out over a three month period. Divide that by the four Districts, because to have a "TRUE" State Series, each District will need to be involved. That means once a month the "Series" will be in your District and the other three weeks it will be in the other Districts. If your tournament does not get the nod as the Series Tournament you are SOL that year. Every District would only have three tournaments a year. Throw in Kickoff Classic, USJOC, Tulsa, Sprawls, and Liberty, the window for club tournaments closes even more. Having a series will not grow Kansas wrestling it will choke it out. The only Series we should have is the one we have now, The State Championship series. The series tournament you all are proposing does not give you the best wrestler as a champion. It gives you a champion whose daddy can spend the most on Hotels, entry fees, and travel expenses.

Beeson,

I know you know how the OK series works. The series tournaments are the club tournaments with a contract with the series. They simply agree to abide by a few additional requirements. So club tournaments would not be affected. You could do the series with as few as 4 tournaments or 11. Whatever, they decided is right for us. Moving the series tournaments around and allowing the different clubs to host would benefit them as well as the wrestlers. OK clubs don't run from one end of the state to the other for 9 weeks doing these. Some are well attended and others aren't. So it pretty much evens out in the end.

As far as the bigger national tournaments are concerned. They are not well attended by KS wrestlers as it is and I don't think that is going to change next season. I wish I was wrong about that, but no. For that matter, Sprawls, Hays, Salina or Park City some of our bigger tournament could be considered a series tournament if they so choose to be a host or are selected.

There are a lot of possibilities here and it should not be disruptive to anything that isn't already working. We have done the OK series stuff for 2 years now and my son has gotten shirts both years. We are poor and we make do, so the money thing is a bit arbitrary. We go where the competition is not the other way around.

Thanks, Troy

Mull this over...
The tournament schedule is already jammed packed.
If you have a tournament that is 600 kids right now.
It runs the same weekend as another tournament in the same area that draws 400 kids. Why can't those two come together and make one big tournament and be a part of a series.
The cost of one tournament is much lower then two so the profit is higher. Two clubs equal more man power to run a better tournament.
It cleans up the already over crowded schedule.
This thing could work with just a little support. The Oklahoma series has grown into a big deal. I just see more positives the negatives.
This is something we are already seriously kicking around for next year. If you or your club are interested please feel free to PM me.

Couple of more questions.

1000 entries?....most high schools do not have the room. I love Derby and Maize, but every year people complain about space.

If it wouldn't make that big of a change and people will still wrestle the tournaments they always have, why do it? For more Prizes? Last year a kid does well at these tourney's and gets his medals. This year he wrestles the same tourney's and performs the same, but this year he gets.....a shirt, a singlet, a hoodie, a big trophy, and a bike. I don't see why we reward kids for doing what they have always have done. Looks like pampering to me.

Its not big prizes every weekend.
At the of the year we award people that have aquired the points.
Plus1000 kids...
Split format
14 wrestling surfaces
Satellite weigh ins on Friday Night Only
Plenty of table workers
Maybe run 14 year olds on Friday Night

If you can meet those requirements then 1000 should be no problem.

what tournaments are tougher than the state tournament patrick. this is not true for everyones bracket but in my sons case at wichita classic he had 2 tulsa national placers in it. Maize he had a national champion in it. Derby brings several kids from out of state. Salina is just as tough as state due to the kids wrestling in different weights. so in my opinion the state tournament is not always the toughest. It is the most satisfying to win because it is called the state championships.

14 wrestling surfaces sounds like alot of 1/4 mats for the 6,8,10 and some 12.

there are alot of things to think about on the series. beeson has been around along time and has some good arguments but there are also some good arguments as to why to get this started. ask the kid if he will wrestle harder for a ribbon, a 2 inch medal or a belt. if you can get your kid to wrestle his hardest isnt that what makes him better. then if he is involved in a series competition dont you think he will wrestle that much harder. though it might not if the kid knows he isnt in the running for the points. there are alot of ins and outs. good discussion though.

How many of you proposing this series have run a tournament? How many even belong to a club that hosts a tournament?

I agree with chad. These tournaments have already outgrown themselves.I remember 25 years ago when most the metals were no bigger than a quarter, and greatbend was the place to go for the big metal it was the size of a 50 cent piece! The only reason i went to greatbend was for that big metal. As far as all american it kinda takes away from getting that when you go to folkstyle nationals in Iowa, when you have kids getting it at brute by just showing up cause you have three in your bracket.There's plenty of chances to win the tripple crown, trinity award, ect. But the way it is now you have to earn it, i think it would take away from the kids that earn it the hard way . It would be way to easier to win it by winning three invitationals and would take away the prestige from the real triple crown, trinity ect. Just my thoughts.

I have enjoyed reading this thread.

3 years ago I made a proposal to the kids council on having this tournament challenge for the state of kansas to promote folkstyle and give something back to the kids. I had little support for this idea.

I still like the idea and think can work here in Kansas for us, but it has to include all 4 districts and be set up that we are are making our families drive all over the state and spend dollars that we do not have.

I am reading so please keep your ideas coming.

Ned

You can have multiple tournaments as part of your series. Even more then one on the same weekend. You can give points and bonus points depending on bracket size.

On an OPEN TOURNAMENT with a split format session you can run
6 8 and 12 year olds in the morning.
One Full Mat
Six quarter mats
Seven half mats
Start turning quarter mats into halfs and moving matches as soon as you can.

Afternoon session you run three full mats and six half mats.

Everyone headed home by 5 or 6pm
A lot of clubs don't run that many mats cause they can't handle the table workers and other staff.
But by combining small tournament it a win win win for EVERYONE.

You can't have more than one on the same weekend. That no longer makes it a series. People will complain that the one in this District is tougher than the one in that District, and they are worth the same. Bracket size does not necessarily mean that the bracket was tougher. Most will just go where the bonus points are being rewarded. To many human factors come into play with more than one series tournament.

Six mats would be hard to put in most High Schools and still be within USA regulations concerning safety mats.

it's a great idea, but needs all of us to come up with the right stuff.

beeson and sportsfan and others who seem like they are opposing the idea are actually the best resources here. the people who are seeing the issues before they arise, are the people who need to be on the correction of errors committee.

the rest of you need to start coming up with a communication chain and put in some serious thought to a few questions.
who will host/ who want to vs who can pull it off
who has the room- not one high school in ks- few colleges
who has the hotel space- only the big cities
who will be the district scheduling committee
what awards/ points will be given
it goes on and on, and if we want it to happen need to keep asking the tough questions and finding answers (probably the hardest part)

i would love to see it happen and would be glad to help, let me know when the commitees are being formed.

ok guys lets get away from the way things used to be. nothing is the way it used to be. i just heard someone say i went to greatbend for that medal. well its not any different these days but the awards are just that much nicer. the kids wrestle their butts of to get those. thats what we all want. nothing really has to change to run a series except we need to find out what tournaments will be those that keep track of those series points. nobody has to change anything else about their tournament. the one thing that may change is rather than 20 dollars it might be 25 or instead of 15 maybe 20. i dont think we need to give away the farmhouse for it. maybe a nice jacket for each kid would be ok and it doesnt have to be called the triple crown. it could be called the kansas series champion. all i am trying to do is give the kids more incentive to wrestle their best at every tournament. wrestling 2 matches vs. the same kids is not getting them there. my son wrestled 5 tournaments this year that he only got 2 matches. sorry if this pisses off some of those smaller tournaments but i would rather pay 5 dollars extra and wrestle 4-6 good matches than wrestle 2.

The OK series tournaments only take $1.00 per entry and they have it set up where you can see who enters the tournaments as they become available and also list the flyers etc. So if you want to know who's going for whatever reason you can look it up to make that choice. I like that aspect prob the most. You can decide if that one is right for you or if you want to do something else that weekend. You can still use track wrestling or whatever system you want so that shouldn't change anything. Like I said before, you are not changing anything except having a series champ at the end of the season who is hopefully a more rounded wrestler for it. They do hoodies and t-shirts with Div Placers listed on the back, which is not really a bling item but is pretty nice. They also open it up to all comers so that out of state kids can be involved as well. They also do a state tourney series just like we do. So I really can't see why we aren't clever enough to do it as well.

Excuse me if you don;t like all american how about All Kansas then who cares what you call it, if the kids are in the top 6 in points then they have accomplished something. oh yes I forgot there are a few on here that think if you don't win it all you have not accomplished anything.

Top 6 did not accomplish anything unless it was at State.

no one is asking you to change your coaching philosophy chad. i got into some trouble for being a ha, this year too. we agree on some things about winning championships, but there is no real harm, let it happen.

we all know that there should only be one person leaving state happy, the champion. this won't take away from that at all. it will simply do as bockover said (can't believe i agree with him), make some tournaments a little tougher. it won't make every bracket tougher, but it will help some.

i coach a group of kids who have NEVER wrestled at maize, this year they went and won some belts. i was upset at first because they were trophy hunting, i made my position known. then i saw the brackets and the kids that came from all over, and changed my stance. i am proud for their accomplishments, and they know that. i still don't care for the belts, but i am a grown man, with a shoe box full of medals.

when i showed those medals to my 5 year old he loved it. "WOW DADDY THOSE ARE COOL YOU MUST HAVE BEEN GOOD!!" when my nephew showed him the belt "WOW BRANDON THAT BELT IS AWESOME, YOU ARE THE BEST!!" i won't forget that, and will remind him in a few years that only one tournament really matters, but for now, it is what it is. to be the best you have to beat the best, there is always that 1 in 100 chance, so go find the best, and give him your best.

THAT is the point! Yes there is harm, to the other tournaments. It will be a slow death of all but one tournament in this state per weekend, which is pretty much how Oklahoma operates the last I looked. That only lessens the opportunities for clubs and in the end result, the individual wrestlers. Please people, NEVER try to copy what they do in Oklahoma. Each state is different and has different demographics.
I ask again, how many of you that are supporting this idea, have ever run a tournament or even belong to clubs that host tournaments?
This was a bad idea when it was first suggested a few years ago and is just as bad now. Luckily the state body had the good sense to see how it would adversely effect our sport.

i see your point sportsfan, but tournaments are dying now. why because of poor planning on EVERYONE'S part.

the point is we have big tournaments now, what would you propose we do not let them run because it might hurt someone else? there have been some suggestions to coop with another club or two, that would work with some planning.

we have run a successful sub-district tournament here in d1 for many years now. probably the best, big venue, full mats, with the largest population. it wouldn't take anything away from d2, or your area. what it would do is bring in some other competition, break away from wichita see what's out there, in-state. stop going to ok, keep it in-state.

See this is what you would know if you had ever been involved in hosting a tournament. There is NO planning because all of us are limited on dates that we can access facilities. I wish it was as simple as those of you that have never hosted a tournament, make it out to be. It simply isn't!
As to your "full mats", maybe it is you who needs to steer clear of the larger tournaments because there are those out there already offering that. When you exceed the capacity of your facility that is when you have 14U wrestling on half mats and 10U wrestling on quarter mats. Believe it or not, there are tournaments out there right now wrestling on full mats for most age groups.

It will never happen cause honestly most of you wouldn't come to D4. Unless it was Pratt or Hays. Can't see any one of you going to Ulysses or Hugoton.

Another good point!

i guess i dont see how its going to affect all those small tournaments. it might take a few of the better kids that already do travel toward wichita but overall the kids that are that good to be in the hunt for the series points will go to those tournaments. do you really think a kid that isnt in the running is going to go out of his way to go to a tournament just because its involved with a series. if anything it might bring in some out of state quality kids. i think some of you guys are over thinking and are still living in the old days. well this isnt the old days and we have to think of ways to keep improving kansas wrestling not staying like it used to be when we wrestled. kids are lazier these days and the rewards get them off the couch and on to the mat. if thats what it takes then so be it. as long as they arent sitting on the couch playing games all day i am for whatever it takes to prevent that.

The best way to improve Kansas wrestling is to get more kids involved in Freestyle and Greco. Just my opinion. That is what the Kansas Triple Crown is all about. The kids folkstyle season already has plenty of tournaments within a days driving distance. Going to AAU Nationals, Kickoff, Tulsa Nationals, Amarillo, Salina is plenty of a series. Let the local clubs benefit from the open weekends. Then support freestyle and greco the state did it right and moved state up a month. If a kid is that interested in getting the "bling" they will make the time away from other sports to concentrate on wrestling for one more month.

So the series would be just for a select few? The first couple of tournaments in the series would be huge. But if a kid is no longer in the running they will just quit. So the remaining tournaments will be smaller because only the kids that have a chance will participate. What is that teaching the kids?

Sorry Scott, I just dont see how this will help Kansas Wrestling. It will only help the clubs that are part of the series. The rest of the clubs will not have the funds to operate. Clubs will dwindle, and Kansas wrestling will be worse off for it.

this is just a way to make up a reward for kids who don't want to do freestyle and greco? I see no reason for KANSAS WRESTLING to get envolved or support it. Kansas has a triple crown if a wrestler wants it he should earn it.

Ok, here's an idea and shoot me if I am wrong, because I really don't see any other positive way to get Greco or Freestyle to have a chance to grow in this state.

There are a bunch of small tournaments in this state that either because of their location and or competition with other larger tournaments have low numbers in attendance. I would suggest that you begin incorporating the opportunity to wrestle those other styles as well as the folkstyle. You could offer 2 styles or all three in the same day. If your really bold you could run a two day tourney and do them on separate days if you didn't think it could all be done in one day. I have never ran a tournament so I have no idea of the logistics and realities of how this would work, but I do know that exposure and opportunity are the only way the kids are going to get involved. If nothing else someone who has the skills and the foresight could at least put on a few clinics at these things to show the kids what it's all about.

As it stands most kids let alone parents have no idea what Greco/Freestyle is about. Everything is geared towards Folkstyle and once the State series is done so are they. I would bet most parents don't even know it's available unless the coaches tell them or perhaps as I do follow the message boards.

What I am saying here is don't wait till March to start trying to recruit. Get out there from the get go in Nov and start exposing people to this opportunity. Give people a chance to see and do these things early on so that they know what's going on and get some interest built up. It's like anything else different, some people will shy away if they think it is either too difficult or doesn't have merit. You got to make believers of them and show them that it is something that will help their child be a better wrestler and offer more opportunities.

Thanks, Troy

I choose not to do freestyle and greco cause the wrestling season is already too darn long. We start football in august, sept., October and partially in November. Wrestling for us starts in October so we are already over lapping that. We also play basketball during wrestling then baseball starts in march through the first part of July. That gives my kid about a month off from sports to just be a 9 year old kid. I let my kid do all these sports just in case in the future he decides he doesnt want to do the other ones and has something to fall back on. I feel sorry for those kids that are forced to wrestle 10-11 months out of the year because if they choose not to wrestle or dont have a highschool program at that time what do they have to fall back on. I will support freestyle and greco if my son ever decides he wants to try it or it doesnt conflict with everything else. I have 5 kids and have to make room for all of it. Those of you that do freestyle and greco thats great and hope you enjoy it. That really doesnt have anything to do with what the series is about. All the series is doing is giving the kids that little extra thing to wrestle that much harder for. I cant see why thats a problem. I watch some of you on here not wanting it while your coaching and you coach competatively so why would you not want that little extra effort from your wrestlers. lets see put a big steak out in front of you coaches then put a hamburger out there. which one are you going to use the extra effort to get. thats the point.

I have two boys that play football from July into Nov, Wrestle from Nov into Jul (all three styles) play baseball from April into July and one runs track in JH. School. The both do this with the wife and I trying to get them to take time off. I guess what I'm trying to say is if the kids want the triple crown and play other sports it is possible. We don't need to make up another award for the Moms and Dads to push thier athletes into going after.

Andrew Steele

I think having some freestyle/greco mixed into our folkstyle tournaments is a great idea.we should brain storm some of the logistics involved with this sort of project. Such as teaching different styles during the folkstyle season, getting tournaments set up in split venues.Does anyone think this is possible? I think this would spark interest to wrestle different styles.

A few points:
1. I love the idea of combining styles at one tournament. If you go on Track Wrestling you will see that a lot of other states already have tournaments with combined styles. These are very popular and very successful.
2. A lot of people have got on here and defended the current Triple Crown series in Kansas.
I think Bockover was originally talking about a series type of events or combining some of the bigger tournament with a points system. There is only ONE Triple Crown in Kansas and that won’t change.

IMO
This series idea has a lot of potential and merit. I understand ALL of Chads points here. And some of them are very legit concerns. But we are already seeing some serious concerns with our sport. So many tournaments are having to cancel or reschedule, the entry fees going up so people are doing less tournaments, clubs really having to do some out of the box ideas for fundraisers to stay a float.
We have a few choices...
There are only so many weekends in a season and sometimes we have as many as 7 tournements in one weekend.
Either lenghten the season so more clubs can schedule tournaments for funding ( I really dont want to do that).
OR
Find ways to combine tournaments and let clubs work together and reap the rewards. This will also create much larger and stronger tournaments. Plus it will result in more profitable and better staffed tournaments. And if giving points and additional rewards to wrestlers that go to multiple BIG tournaments and consistently do very well, well I dont see whats wrong with that.
If we want to spread it over the whole state or one district wants to step up and do it, then so be it. I know some of these kids would love to go to tournaments week in and week out and see more then just the same 3 kids. Either your club travels more extensively or you do something to draw competition to you.

PLease keep all the comments coming! Positive or Constructive!

sorry, but sometimes you try too hard to be the voice of opposition, that you come across sounding silly. this doesn't make sense.

read your statement: "there is NO planning because all of us are limited on dates we can access facilities"- there has to be some planning, to fit in the limited date. if we all throw our hands in the air and believe it's going to fail, it will.

when did anyone say there was only one tournament with full mats? why would anyone steer clear of larger tournament because of that? believe it or chose to fight tooth and nail to be a doomsayer, there are more tournaments wrestling 14u on 1/2 mats and 10u on 1/4 mats, than there are running full mats. again having trouble following you through all this.

if it was a tourney series event they would, another way to promote the sport STATE WIDE! great idea, we need to spread the boundaries.

If you do 3 styles in one day on full mats you would have to rent the expo center to do it. I have been doing the trackwerstling at rossville tournament for 3-4 years. We run 6 mats & cut entrys to 400 just so the gym is not to crouded & people can get home at a decent hour.

We have built another gym at rossville so I hope we will have bigger werstling surfaces & can accomodate more wrestlers this coming year.

I'm sure it doesn't to some, which would include you.


I don't need to read it, I wrote it! No planning is required that pertains to this silly idea and moreso, none that anyone who has never run a tournament or belongs to a club that doesn't, would understand.


Where did I say that anyone said that? Rather, someone said that one of the benefits to this idea was larger wrestling surfaces. I simply pointed out that there are tournaments out there already wrestling on full mats. You just have to look for them instead of the bling.

You seem to go completely off track when you can't find a supporting point for your arguments. Please try to stay on point! Again, several people support exactly what I am saying but you choose me to argue with?
There are a couple of things which I can tell you and the other supporters of this idea.
1. Most clubs have one or two dates (at most), that they can access their facilities for a tournament. There is NO planning, that is what it is. If a nearby tournament has the same date then one of you could be in trouble.
2. There is no "co-opting" because there is not enough money in it. Money is what makes our tournaments work. Take the money out of the equation and there will be NO tournaments!

well sporto you need to change your name to negative -o. everytime someone has an idea all you ever do is say it wont work. do you sit in your practice room and tell your coaches and kids no that wont work. instead of tearing up everyones ideas why dont you sit on that butt of yours and think of ways to make others ideas actually work. then maybe everyone on here will think your such an idiot all the time. I am going to say this one last time. Adding a series to the equation is only adding maybe 5 dollars to 3-6 tournaments that already run every year. those other tournaments will still have a chance to run theirs cause not all the kids will go to the tournament just for the series. I think those that already dont like the idea will be the ones. I guess im not sure on why you think it wont work and all your negative attitude toward this but like i explained before. you put the big bling in front of the kid you get him to wrestle harder in return makes him better in return hopefully makes the other kids better. you throw out something small and you dont get his best every time. you can argue about the freestyle and greco is the way to go. well if it was earlier you would probably get more kids involved in that as well.

If it is the "bling" which makes your wrestler work harder, you are doing a very poor job of coaching.

When my children were eight and under they all thought the McPherson Invitational Trophy was great, until each had won one and the "bling" was off.

When my children were ten and under it was the competition which was important and the "bling", with the exception of the USJOC sweatshirt, never entered their mind.

i'm not arguing with anyone, sportsfan. i just couldn't follow your point. where i think you are mistaken is thinking that i/we haven't hosted a tournament. we hosted 3 this year a novice, an open, and subs. we had small turn outs at our novice and open for the reasons you state, NO planning. that doesn't mean that we should never plan again, or strive to do better.

i have thanked you plenty for coming up with the opposing views many times, however i saw no supporting facts with this one.

i'm not asking for any tournament to change from their one or two dates. all i am saying is take one or two of those dates and work it out so you don't conflict with someone else's one or two dates. it is simple, some just make it difficult

communication- call your neighboring club presidents and share information, it's NOT HARD. work together instead of alone, it's called TEAMWORK. the fact is we've done this in SEK FOR YEARS, and it worked the last few years clubs have gone away from this concept.


give me the facts to support your last statement- how do you know there is no $$$ in co-oping? have you tried it? seems like if two tournament have lower #s and lower $$$ a coop tournament isn't going to take anything away from that. i don't know we have never tried it, but you haven't given much as far as facts go, just the same IT WON'T WORK excuse.

the facts i showed were that there are always ways to improve, and it takes ideas from all sides to make something work. another fact is people fear change, it's not a character flaw, it's human nature.

what's that cael sanderson quote about learning, changing, and evolving.....and learning a quick and painful lesson? if we aren't willing to work together, and willing to make changes for improvement, WE WILL FAIL.

i'm not saying, if we don't get this done, ks wrestling will fall, i'm saying we need to continue to brainstorm and come up with ways to improve. i don't understand why you oppose this suggestion, like i've read from you many times "IF YOU DON'T LIKE A TOURNAMENT, OR HEAR IT'S NOT GOOD, THEN DON'T GO TO IT."

sportsfan no one is asking for your approval here, and if you don't want to be a part of the series then don't. keep in mind though if it works out and you ever change your mind, we will let you sign up. btw i'll let you know next year when our tournaments are, come by and let us know what you think.

lastly: get over yourself.... i quoted beeson too, and he didn't take it personally or take offense. just differences, get used to it.

I agree 100% with Richard. If your kids are wrestling for the "bling", something is wrong. They should be wrestling for the love of the sport not because of the trophy. If your kid is wrestling for "the bling", they are in for a rude awakening in High School and College. "The Bling" just isn't there. While I'm on the subject, I hate it when parents tell a kid they will buy them a singlet or a sweatshirt if they win. The kid needs to learn to be motivated just for the competition.

The only problem with having two or three different styles at the same tournament. You have to have full mats for Freestyle and Greco. Even for the 6U and 8U.

Well Richard I will have to dis-agree with you. Sometimes that bling is what motivates my kid. So I guess he won his state championship by bad coaching or what. I have the problem of my son is a good basketball player to and if its the bling that keeps attention to wrestling then so be it. Yes I understand the competition but not all 9 year olds do. guess maybe I am a bad coach and parent because my 5 and 9 year olds dont understand anything but the bling. You guys need to realize that times have changed since you wrestled so catch up fellas or maybe its you that will have that rude awakening when your kid gets bored with wrestling. Maybe the will maybe they wont but dont tell me im a bad coach because my philosophy for my son is different than yours.

Bockman,

Whatever works for you and yours should be enough and the truth is it does work for a bunch of kids. While I don't like the idea of bribing them to do a sport, I do see that some kids are def drawn to the awards as opposed to getting nothing at BB or other winter sports. Of course we all pay for that stuff in the long run w/ entries and such. Funny, if all the State series turned out was little quarter sized medals instead of the plaques I bet people would go elsewhere. Which is also kinda sad too.

As for us, we like some of the bigger awards like the eagle trophies and rings, but we have tons of medals from just about everything you can imagine. Karate, Swimming, Baseball, Football, Track, Scouts, Soccer, Highland Games, Scholastics etc.. I tried to teach my kids that it's not the award but the title and the experience is what is lasting. Nobody can take that away from you. When you get older those ribbons, trophies, medals etc.. will be sitting in a box somewhere gathering dust while your trying to get your own kids theirs. However, the fact that you were the xxxl champ of something in 1885 it will be there forever. I for instance have AAU T&F records myself that are over 30 years old and I am pretty darn proud of that.

The one thing my son really likes and this is mostly an OK thing. If he wins down there they give him a nice big T-Shirt from the tournament that says Champion on the back. He could care less about the medal/trophy at that point. The t-shirt consequently gets worn to death over the next year so he actually benefits from that more than any medal.

Bling, is and has being bandied about quite liberally and inaccurately here. Part of the problem with the current system we have here is everyone is trying to outdo each other on awards to draw in the kids. That is either because there are 5 other tournaments the same weekend or they are trying to entice out of state competition. So from my perspective what everyone who has been dogging the KS Series about, is really already being done and with bells on anyway.

The series system they use in OK does not have weekly bling. Just a hoodie and or a t-shirt at the conclusion of the series if you wrestle in 3 or more of the series comps. It's up to each of the tournaments to decide what they give to their champs. Most give medals, bracket and t-shirt, some give Trophies no different than us. They rotate who hosts each year to give the clubs a chance, some choose to host some don't. Tulsa nationals gave away Bicycles to Div outstanding wrestlers and such but not the series. If you take the time to look at what they do then you would understand it better. OK has just about as many tournaments a season as we do. I guess they are just better at doing things than we are??? To blast it because it is being done in OK and they are just different is just wrong and your guilty of being close minded.

I am really tired of everyone thinking that way as it costs people time and money and our kids opportunities because people think they got to do things differently than everyone else or they don't own it. It's kids wrestling, not a political party. Nobody owns it we all own it and it's wrong to let a few people dictate how and when we do things to the degree that we stagnate. KS has a long history of good ol'boy and nepotism locking stuff up all the time, don't want to change or grow. Lots of special interest groups and lobbyist keeping things "status quo" for those who already have the power and money. Look at where we are from it in Topeka today. Things aren't looking so hot for the State of KS are they. Guess what, that ain't about to change soon either. Look for more schools to close, more programs to get cut and taxes to go up.

I really hope that someone can get a series going in this state, if for nothing else the Novice kids. Maybe that would help foster growth in some form or another. From the looks of things Novice tourneys will continue to be on the decline. One thing about having a tight economy is it makes for some hard core wrestling.

You guys prob get tired of me rambling, but I don't really care. Lots of other parents see this and they might gain some understanding from it or maybe can connect some dots that I am not thinking of. Let people decide for themselves what is right or wrong by giving them information to reflect on. Everyone has opinions and opinions are like belly buttons everyone has one or at least had one. Maybe someone will share something with a Dist Rep that might be of some use or advantage for us.

Happy Easter, Troy

Ok. If its not about the "bling" then do away with multiple brackets at tournaments. Give kids more matches for the money. Saves on number of bling you give out also. Too many brackets, not enough matches is what is hurting some tournaments, imo. You should either be a "novice" or an "open" wrestler. Then you would have the best of both worlds, good "bling" and great competition... just some food for thought.

I have always said, "Put everyone in the same bracket and wrestle." I am not a fan of Novice. I see it as a necessary evil. If your kid is doing it for the "Bling" they are doing it for the wrong reasons. The Series is a bad idea in my opinion....Kansas wrestling will suffer.

its not all about the bling for me but that does make a huge difference to the kid. its kinda funny how the biggest and best tournaments in kansas give the best bling and have the toughest wrestling. so say its not about the bling but to the kids it makes a difference. Chad you and I know that its about the competition but the young kids really dont understand that like we do. Yes you can sit there and say you teach them its not about the bling. So next year ask your kid if he wants to go to another tournament the same weekend as one of the bigger tournaments. tell him what the awards are and tell me what he says. All I am trying to say is the series will help alot of kids wrestle that much harder because it is about the competition. That kid will not want another kid to beat him out in points. That in return will make for better matches and the kids get better. Why is that so hard to understand. Chad explain to me why you think Kansas wrestling will suffer. Like Spexy said it suffers because its a too darn long and half the tournaments you go to you get stuck wrestling 2 matches.

bockman, we have explained it over and over. Saying it more, obviously won't make you believe what we are telling you.

It will give the series tournaments a monopoly. If you are not a series tournament your tournament will suffer. The club will not make money. Without money there are less opportunities for kids. Smaller clubs will wither up and die. This will make Kansas wrestling weaker.

As far as the Bling, they become dust collectors.

I don't think we went to one tournament this year where we did not get three matches. That is a 16 man bracket with a bye. We do not need bigger brackets. Most schools cant handle more than 700 participants. If you want more or different competition, go to Oklahoma before our season. Go to a different District every week. There is plenty of competition, you just have to go where it is.

so starting a month earlier and making the season would be the answer. Football runs into november these days and its going to make it harder to do that. I really dont think the series will affect the smaller tournaments because alot of those kids would probably opt out of doing it. not all but most. I dont know the answer to it but somehow oklahoma does it and they are still one of the top states in the country in wrestling. they have large and small tournaments weekly just like kansas. i honestly dont think it will affect most of the tournaments. guess without at least trying it then we wont know. if we try it and it doesnt work then we just go back to the way it is now. How long has oklahoma been doing it. I see kansas kids wrestling down there for that series anyways.

Starting a month earlier is what Oklahoma does. They also end a month earlier. So if we want to be so much like Oklahoma and have a series, then we need to start and end a month earlier also.

If most kids will opt out of the series, like you state, then why do it? Are we only having the series for a few of the kids? How will that improve Kansas wrestling as a whole? You are contradicting yourself. I do not believe we need to make up another "TITLE". State Champion should be enough.

Chad
I want Ks wrestling to grow as much as the next guy. I love this sport and I am very thankful for what it has given back to my sons and the awesome relationships that it has given me.
I am more then willing to be a team player. When I first started kicking this idea around last year my purpose was to help struggling tournaments grow. Use the series idea to draw people to the smaller tournaments. Be kinda like the Robin Hood of Wrestling. lol
Then I tried to look at it from every side and thought that it just wouldnt work for some of the smaller tournaments. Some of them are break even as it is. Could they afford to chip in to final prize pool and I also want this to go over big so I was also looking at some of the better ran tournaments.
My idea was to start out by taking some of the bigger D2 tournaments and get the ball rolling there and then once it was rolling the right way start to spread out.
The one thing that I see that is choking this sport is all these tournaments stacked up on the same weekend. You can wrestle a good tournament almost every weekend and never leave your own district. I also want to use the series to maybe motitvate people to get out of their little box and travel to other districts and see new competition. I know everyone can't afford to travel every weekend and that's ok. But let's try to give people some incentive to do that.
Anytime you get a few strong kids from different districts in a SUPER bracket it creates buzz and excitement for our sport.
That is a good thing.
I know I know...
There are some true hard core wrestlers out there that would wrestle for bubble gum. But they are the minority. We cherish those kids and those are the ones that usually go on to bigger and better things. But for our sport to flurish we need to appeal to the masses.
I don't want to take away from any club that holds a tournament but the truth is if we don't start seeing clubs Co Op their tournaments that they will start to choke out and die anyway. Look how many people canceled this year.

a few times now i have heard co-oping as an answer to changing the current trend of over scheduling. i haven't heard any solution or possible change from some of the opposing voices. i have always been told "if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem". sportsfan/ chad/ others.....we all agree that over scheduling and issues with profits are both a problem. do you have any suggestions to help fix it? again i'm not saying, the triple crown or a series is the end all answer, i'm just trying to think into the future.

The soulution is simple, but it is going to hurt alot go egos. There are too many clubs. District 1 has at least 18 clubs that should join together with other clubs, bringing the total club count to around 62 instead of 76. District 2 has about 17 clubs that should join together with other clubs, bringing the total club count to around 32. District 3 has 7 and District 4 has 4. I am guesstimating on District 1, 3, and 4. There could be more.

If District 2 had a club count of 32...2 clubs from the District could have a tournament each week. Take out 3 clubs for Subs and Districts and there would be more than enough weekends to go around.

The problem is people can't get along and divide off into way too many clubs. I believe that the more wrestlers and coaches that are in a club, the stronger the club. Examples; Brawlers, East Kansas, Garden City Greater Gold, Goddard, Derby, TOHK, Ark City, Salina, Bonner Springs, and SEK Jr. Comets. Those were the top 10 placers at State or the top 5% of clubs. These all have a good number of kids in the room with Coaches that get along.

If we want Kansas wrestling to get better, we need to quit dividing good wrestling partners and good coaches up into so many clubs. Bring them together to make each other better. So what if your kid is not the best in the room. Don't divide off so that he is, be grateful there are kids better in the room to push him. As East Kansas motto goes, "Steel sharpens Steel".

Tournament gets to big it will have to be a two dayer if you follow the rules. As for D4 having 4 clubs that can combine WHAT????? Out here off the top of my head I can only think of one county that has two clubs. That would be Finney with Greater Gold and Southwest Grapplers. Ulysses combined this year so were do you get 4. To go to another club would be at least a 25 mile or more drive.

Look up the clubs in District 4...there are 2 more.

You SAID IT brother! Someone doesn't like the way we do things, well "screw that", we'll go off and do our own thing. Doesn't matter how it effects everyone else's kid, rather just my own. Of course we use the ruse of saying "it's best for the sport or the state". Everyone is for "raising the entire state up", that is, until it's their time to actually pull.

here are my ideas for making kansas a better wrestling state. Start at our normal time of the year. kids state needs to be done the week before highschool state so those little kids can actually go watch the highschool state and that would generate quite a bit more money for the highschool programs. then after highschool state the freestyle and greco could get started and i think you would get more kids to start doing those 2. i for one would do freestyle and greco if the regular season was shortened up. I think the series is a good idea but has lots of questions. I really dont think it will change the way we run tournaments right now. All we do is get 5 or 6 tournaments to be ran as the series. I dont think a tournament every week needs to run part of the series because yes that would probably kill a couple tournaments each week. those big tournaments are where the kids are already going so i really dont think it will hurt any of those other tournaments if its not already doing that. Clubs just need to watch that they try not to get too close to those big tournaments on that same weekend. These are the tournaments that would be a good choice and shouldnt hurt anyones numbers. Derby, Maize, Sprawl, Salina, West kansas classic and Park City classic. Then if someone on that east side would get the east Kansas Classic that would be great. You dont have to add it as a tournament but just change the name of the tournament you already run. I still state that Pittsburg state would be a great place to have it. surely someone in the Kc area could find a place to have it. As far as having several clubs run a tournament. Chad is probably right about not getting along because some people just have that ego and do not listen or want to be told what or how to do something. I do like the idea of getting the kids in the same room at times. other times I like the small club we have cause we have 5 coaches and 15 kids. that one on one is great. I would also love to be able to travel out of state as team kansas and not 20 kids all from different kansas teams.

I give up!

These tournaments are already well attended, with great competition. Making them a series will not make a difference. All it will do is give another AWARD or TITLE. Let's not make up an award just for the sake of giving out more awards. Would you rather be a State Champion or Series Winner? Either way you are lessening the State Championship. A kid can say well I didn't win State, but I was the Series Champion. Is that what we want?

well you have a good point on that one. So now I am done. Now lets get the season shortened up so the kids can watch the highschool state and get freestyle and greco started earlier so more kids can compete at these tournaments and make Kansas overall a better wrestling state. You are our d2 rep and you have the power to help do this. I dont think starting a month earlier like Oklahoma is the answer because football already goes into wrestling. I dont want to be like Oklahoma. My goal is to beat the crap out of Oklahoma. When I wrestled Oklahoma kicked our butts. At the highschool age I think they still do but from what I saw this season at the Oklahoma tournaments and Nationals Kansas is holding their own.

Lets leave it the way it is. Yes some kids want more "bling" and other kids don't care about the "bling". The State Tournament gives all kids a chance to go and get the Title. Parents who can not afford to travel the state would be left out the of the seris thing. IMO this would hurt Kansas Wrestling. I know plent of families that budget the trip to Topeka into the budget but don't have the money to travel all over the state like some of us are fortanate enough to do for the whole season. Lets keep Kansas Wrestling a cheap as we can. It's expensive enough not.

I do agree that there should be more mixing of clubs during practices. Here is an idea. Neighboring clubs rotate an open room one night a week for the two or three club within 20 or 30 miles. This would really help make better wrestlers.

A. Steele

Scott
IMO the reason OK starts to run away from KS is because they have less strict rules at the MS and HS levels. Their MS/HS kids can still go into the kids club rooms to work out and assist with coaching and can wrestle kids club events even during the regular season. So the JV kids that are not dueling or in a tournament can still get great mat time and wrestle on the weekends. The HS/MS coaches can also coach them at these events. They get way more mat time in a shorter season then Ks.

Ok Beeson I found Pratt and Finney counties with two clubs who am I missing? Maybe you are thinking some are closer than you think let me know.

bling blang. I'm just pi$$ed the season is sooo short. 5-6 months is just not long enough. Can't we just go 10+? Screw that, how about year-round? Don't know about anybody else, but after reviewing expenses for the season, I am left wondering if I've spent enough on gas, hotel rooms, and concessions. And can we get more tournaments with the Salina Bicentennial Center/Topeka Expocenter type full-body cavity searches!

I have no solution, I think Kansas wrestling has apretty good setup right now. If the season is too long don't wrestle every weekend if its too exspensive dont wrestle every weekend if your kid doesnt want to go cause the awards suck dont go.
I think one bracket per weight per age division is great.
If you are worried about 25 miles to drive move to pa we drove 58 a night one way to practice.
so i guess i ultimately have two opinions

1. this sport is about the kids growing and learning and having FUN
2. if its too long, exspensive, not enough bling, not hard enough
don't do it

sorry forgot my name is mike pirl
Also went to Brute this weekend got two quality matches spent at least 500 but had a blast. my kid and i had the time of our lives
had a chance to wrestle more but didnt care wanted it to be fun with no pressure
exspensive yes
worth it yes again about the kids not me or my ego

that happened along time ago! IMO!

agree with your thinking 100%, but still don't see a solution here. what are you going to propose that each district is only allowed a total of 64 clubs? you are absolutely right there are too many clubs trying to run tournaments, but there is an easier solution than trying to limit the numbers. its communication, and cooperation. i urge the district reps to take charge and provide a schedule of events at the first district meeting of the year, challenge clubs to get their dates in on time, so ALL clubs can have the same opportunities.

calling it a series championship, isn't any more a ridiculous idea than tulsa nationals, big horn nationals, dixie nationals, brute nationals, folkstyle nationals, or liberty nationals, etc. do you really think those are a true national tournament? are ALL the toughest kids in the nation there? are they hurting wrestling? i really don't think so, but some might think so.

why does anyone go to those tournaments. FOR THE COMPETITION. i don't see the harm in expanding tough tournaments throughout kansas. i think park city, salina, are good, as well as hays, we need a big tournament back in topeka and the four districts could be covered, and should have plenty of wrestling space, motels, etc. it's not that different than what it is now. call it what ever you want, you are making too big of a deal out of this.

Read the rest of the posts. I'm not making too much out of this, those wanting the series are trying to make a big deal out of nothing. Quit trying to give away meaningless awards to make the kids feel better about not winning state. And Yes, Tulsa is legit.

Come on rough you didn't enjoy those searches. Thought they were kinda fun. LOL

I agree with you Mike. I think the season is fine as it is, and if you want to make it shorter, well I had a suggestion on that a while back and didn't get much feedback. Ditch the Subs, have four District tournaments, two Sub-States, and State. As far as the after State season, the ones that do freestyle and greco, I applaud them for sticking with wrestling that many months of the year. They will likely be the wrestlers that show the most improvement the next season. As for my son, Jr High track and club soccer now, baseball soon, and on to trying to make the High School soccer in the fall. As I have said before, and I am a wrestling junkie, he will probably not be the best High School wrestler in the State, but he should hold his own.

One more thing on his plate, continuing to get straight A's in the classroom (the thing that I am most proud of). As far as the day when he gets his first B, or heaven forbid a C, he will not fall into that category of kids that can't cope with not being the best. I believe that wrestling has already taught him that, as well as the other sports he has been involved in. Until then, he has been a State Champion in the classroom, but has never placed in State in any sport.

I dis-agree on the meaningless prize. It would be something that a kid won over a period of 5 or 6 matches not just one tournament. Your right state is tough but not the toughest. I still think there are good things and bad things. If it happens I will stand behind it if not then no different then the last 5 years.

I've watched this topic for several days and I really don't know what to think about any of it but do have to agree with one thing and disagree with another. First of all, we did go to at least 4 tournaments this year which my son only had two matches, so don't know what the answer is but would be nice to get more matches after driving 2 hours. And yes we could go where there is more kids and yes we do know where those tournaments are but as much as anything I try to teach, being there for your teammates and coaches and sticking together is one of the biggest lessons we can teach our kids in this great sport. Yes you can look at it as an individual sport but "team" is a much bigger part of it and will be as they go through Jr High and HS. So I will not preach this to my son and then take him to a tournament while the rest of the team goes to another as a "TEAM". What bigger lesson can we teach our children than loyalty to family, team, friends or whatever.
Now, as far as State being "not the toughest" may be but I am NOT going to tell my son that he was 2nd at the STATE TOURNAMENT but it wasn't the toughest. In my opinion, it is the toughest tournament you will find with only Kansas kids. Sure other big tournaments may draw kids from other states but the STATE Tournament is exactly that, the best of the best from our State and I am extremely proud of my son and his two "teammates" who placed at STATE. You have to earn your way there over the course of 3 weeks and then wrestle your heart out for two days, with thousands of people watching you (sure it feels like that) and knowing that all the sweat and tears to get here rely on what you do THIS match, then you have to do it again, and again, ect....Ask the kids when the season starts and they will tell you they want to win STATE, not Hays, Park City, Salina. STATE is what they look at as the biggest. I do agree the bling is a very big part of some kids goals. Others is the bracket. I know my son was thrilled more to get a bracket for 2nd place that the plaque. I hope nobody is taking this as me braggin on my son, it is far from what I am saying, which is we don't want to do anything that takes away the prestige of the STATE TOURNAMENT, cause it is what the kids want. I will always remember the tears of joy that lasted about an hour after my son won the semi-final match. As he said, "now I have a chance to get my goal, I wanted a chance".

see thats what im saying there are lots of good and bad points of the series. I honestly think it will take away the prestige of the state tournament as Tony said you ask the kids what tournament they want to win and from day one the coaches set the goal of winning state and so do the kids. guess I have mixed thoughts on a series.

heres the solution to the "Series" since its a split on, in favors and agianst.. i say just make it Personal. have someone come up with a design for the Elite 5 tournaments,, put it on the front of a T-Shirt for your Kid,, If you know you are going to go to all 5 tournaments, then buy the shirt, and have it at each tournament,, and just have the Placing put on the back of the shirt,, that way by the time wichita classic rolls around youll have 4 placings on the back of the shirt from the other 4 "elite" tournaments... that will let the kids check out each others placings while they play around while at wichita,, somone can get all the shirts printed so everyone has the same one and he can take orders and payments and have them printed, and mailed. that would be all the organizing you would need, and it would save you from feeling like you have to buy a T-Shirt at all 5 tournaments, saving you around 100 bucks!!

this way if you want to be a part of it you can if not then you dont have too, at subs youll see kids wearing the shirts with 5 placings on the backs,, No personal Recognition but jsut somethings kids can talk about with their buddies!! that shouldnt take anything away from Being STATE champion, which i agree the Series thing would take a little away from!!

These tournaments are already well attended, with great competition. Making them a series will not make a difference. All it will do is give another AWARD or TITLE. And Yes, Tulsa is legit. [/quote]

so where's the harm? we agree on tulsa, but what about the rest of the "national" tournaments? middle school state? now we're going to have 2 class 4a brackets. look chad i'm not trying to push for this, i'm just sayin' these guys are trying to come up with ideas. if we don't like them, we need to come up with something else to continue to grow the sport. it's too darned expensive, and now we have too many clubs and too many tournaments. how do we fix it?

NO, we are not!


So the solution is, create more expensive tournaments which in turn put the less costly tournaments out of business? OOOOOOOK

still haven't heard a proposal sportsfan, beeson came up with one. cut out clubs, equally as crazy as calling existing tournaments a series. how do we keep from running the little guy out of business?

in case you haven't figured it out i really don't care if there is a series or not, i want competition. in the past few years it (competition) has dwindled to only a select few tourneys.

i never said create any more expensive tournaments, and only saw one proposal to raise entry fees.

again you mis-read.

what i am looking for is people who are complaining, to offer up some suggestions. my son is 5 and i don't want things to be screwed up too bad when he is 12.

i have done this now for about 15 years and seen ups and downs. but this year was by far the worst for tournaments being cancelled.

so how do we fix it?

bringing up the same old excuses, just doesn't cut it for me, sorry, it never will.

give me some suggestions, i have a few of my own, but am looking further. please offer up some positive feedback.

btw i put the whole 2 4a classes thing on there to make people realize what happens when they think things are great the way they are. when you sit back and get complacent, someone who is not will come and catch you by suprise. this should be a wake up call to those you are sitting back and thinking everything should be just the way it used to be. it's not and never will again, realize someone out there is working harder than you, and will sneak up and upset you. it doesn't always have to be for the good, some people think alot different than we do. they came up with this silly proposal while we were all thinking man things are just great. i don't care if it's in just one sport or all sports, it's crazier than any series, big/ expensive tournament, or even cutting clubs like ha president beeson said. so those of you who want to sit back and do nothing different, will have nothing to complain about when things go south. when more and more tournaments cancel because we did nothing, someone will do something you don't like, but it will be too late.

keep coming up with ideas, keep playing devils advocate, keep brainstorming, keep evolving, keep learning. it's the nature of the beast.

ok sporto who said anything about coming up with more and more expensive tournaments. you keep saying that but nobody has said anything about adding tournaments. the proposal was to take 3-6 existing tournaments add maybe 5 bucks extra and thats it. stop dicking with everyones ideas and come up with an idea to help make it better or better yet keep your flapper shut cause you never have anything good to say.

As long as you and others are ONLY interested in looking for the "competition", there is no answer. People of that ilk will continue to take their wrestlers out of state or in some cases just out of district, to the detriment of the rest. There are other ways to find "competition", as we have noted, like wrestling up in age or weight. But the fact is, the trophy/bling hunters would never consider those options. And when I say "hunters", I'm talking about adults. You will never make me believe that most kids are motivated by trophy/bling unless it's a learned thing. Like I said, some people are all about raising the bar. Right up to the point where they are asked to pull.
This is no different than the people who complain about the length of the season but yet are out there competing week in and week out from October till April. Then they ask us to regulate them from doing that. I don't need to have the season over by the high school state tournament because me and mine will always be there watching the big guys wrestle, regardless.

The tournaments mentioned are already some of the most expensive in the state. In some cases more expensive than the state tournament. So adding "5 bucks", will only make them moreso.

again you misread, i am the one who said i was upset with the kids in my club for going to maize. they went for belts, and found competition. the second part i can live with, and trust me we wrestle up in age so much, most people challenge birth certificates when we show up to subs. i am not only interested in competition you seem to have a bad case of selective reading.

give me a solution to the dying tournaments.

if not you are the problem so we will pass you by, actually it's probably already happened. you are in denial.

Talking to each other like that ain't going to help anything. We are looking into having a combine tournament with a couple of clubs that are close by. May open up a date or two but comes down to ego's ours and theirs. That is one big problem ego's a little is ok but some are just crazy. Find solutions in your area if it works then let others know. Start with the pieces of the puzzle then the big picture comes into view.

Well I just gave you one solution BUT, I am not part of the "sky is falling" crowd. I think as Beeson said, there are too many clubs and as a result too many trying to host tournaments. Left to it's own devices it will work itself out, as it did this year. Did any kid miss wrestling in a tournament this year due to the cancelations? This year was just an anomaly and I believe many clubs learned, or should have learned, a lesson about just how many tournaments can be scheduled in a district in one weekend.
To me, the state of wrestling in Kansas has never been better and will continue to improve if we control our greed. By that I mean, greedy parents wanting a bigger and better trophy for Johnny and greedy tournament directors taking more entries than their facilities can handle.

i don't think any kids missed any tournaments, however i think some clubs are struggling, finacially. maybe next year will be different, keep your fingers crossed. i hope more will put their egos in check and search for solutions, coop and combine, 1/2 the money from a touranment is better than 0, from a cancelation.

i agree with your greed statement, add to that learn to communicate with each other and i think you did just what i asked come up with something. thank you.

Ok, I did a little research and we are not as bad off as everyone thinks with tournaments cancelling. For most clubs, the season doesn't really start until January.

Dec 5 - 2 Tournaments 1 cancelled

Dec 12 - 3 Tournaments 1 cancelled

Dec 19 - 8 Tournaments 3 cancelled *2 would have a makeup date

Dec 26 - 2 Tournaments No Cancellations

Jan 2 - 8 Tournaments No Cancellations *USJOC Weekend

Jan 9 - 7 Tournaments No Cancellations

Jan 16 - 8 Tournaments 1 cancelled

Jan 23 - 9 Tournaments 4 cancelled *Tulsa Weekend

Jan 30 - 9 Tournaments No Cancellations *Salina Weekend

Feb 6 - 9 Tournaments No Cancellations *2 previously cancelled held makeup dates on this date

Feb 13 - 8 Tournaments 1 cancelled

Feb 20 - 5 Tournaments No Cancellations *1 previously cancelled held a makeup date on this date *High School State

Feb 27 - 7 Tournaments 1 cancelled *1 previously cancelled held a makeup date

Mar 6 - 6 Tournaments No Cancellations *2 previously cancelled held a makeup date

16 Tournaments cancelled their first date. 9 held makeup dates later in the year and held a tournament. 7 tournaments that were cancelled did not makeup the tournament.

It looks like Kansas Wrestling (Statewide) does not really get started until January 1st. Except for the week of Jan 23 which may have been an off week for alot of clubs, tournaments did very well in Kansas after January 1st.

The one thing that this does not show is the clubs that decided to stick it out and ended up losing money or just breaking even due to low entries!
Or the damage to the reputation of a tournaments level of competition due to lack of numbers. In other words clubs go else where next year.
That can have effects that last for years.

This doesn't say how many tournaments overbooked and ran too long, effecting next years turnout either. My point is, the sky is not falling. Kansas wrestling is doing great. After January 1st there were ten weeks on which to have a tournament. Six of those weekends had seven or more tournaments, two weekends had six, and two had nine. Some of those tournaments like having low numbers or 150-200, it works for them. It raises the funds they need and they get some mat time. Others would like to see their tournament grow, keep putting on good tournaments and that will happen. It doesn't happen in one year though. Finally there are some that are too big for their venue and need to set a cap on their entries. Those who do not get into "the big ones" will flow into the tourneys that are looking to grow. It will all even out. A series or Monopoly is not the answer.

How do you feel about clubs holding a tournament and a qualifier or two tournaments?
Is that a lost opportunity for other clubs?

Not a lost opportunity, because the qualifiers are voted on. I don't think a club would be very successful trying to run two open tournaments in the same year. I also don't have a problem with a club holding an open and a novice on two different weekends, or on the same weekend. I am saying give a choice. A series takes the choice out of equation. This is the tournament you have to attend.

now we are getting somewhere. i think it would be unfair to punish a club for hosting an open and a qualifier. it would be impossible to look up the tourneys that broke even or lost $$$.
i don't think anyone said the "sky was falling" yet everyone on this post agrees that tournaments have cancelled at a higher rate than before. i agree with those that overbook should cut back, sometimes easier said than done, and you have to overbook sometimes to know what overbooked is.

So like Bishop Carroll holding their tournament and districts and Derby does their open/novice tournament and novice state, that’s all OK in your book? That’s not a "Monopoly" in your book?
I think if a club wants to step up and do an open and qualifier then its ok. Yes it would be nice for a club without a tournament to be able to do one of these but someone’s got to step up and do it?
I’m asking so I can get an understanding of what people’s definition of monopoly is.
I mean people can choose not to go to Subs right???

Definition of monopoly is: A situation in which a single company or group owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. By definition, monopoly is characterized by an absence of competition.

So Subs and districts? Is that not a monopoly?
Novice State? Is that not a monopoly?
6U State? Is that not a momopoly?


I’m not saying it is, I’m just trying to understand your definition.

Just like people would have a choice not to attend a series tournament. A series might just be the next step in the evolution of our sport. Remember about 3 years ago when Team Haysville started letting trusted clubs do home weigh ins and that kinda evolved into satellite weigh ins.
Everyone feared it! OMG!!! People are going to cheat the process and that is not in the tradition of our sport and blah blah blah.
Now its one of the things that is helping our sport grow.

I would ask that you being the D2 president not to be so quick to come on here and shoot things down so quick. You carry a lot of pull and that is why I am so very glad that you hold the position that you do. All I ask is that see the whole picture before you gun it down.

in my opinion those tournaments that had to cancel need to look at hosting a novice tournament this year. i like the open and novice splits but would rather see less small tournaments on saturday and keep the bigger ones we already have. novice needs more mat time than ever and probably will not travel out of state like some of the better kids. maybe there should be a novice tournament every weekend since that mat time is the most important thing for those kids. im not saying the series is going to be the best thing but for the best kids i think it would be another way to get the best of the best wrestling against each other more than just every now and then. then we can start taking more and more better kids to cliff keen and tulsa. thats where people notice how good kansas looks as a state.

I would just like to put this out there for you all to mull over a little bit. There are certain tournaments out there that my boy and I are not gonna miss ( kickoff, tulsa nationals, joc ) nomatter what. Now with that being said we also took off more weekends this year than ever and it had nothing to do with lack of competition or bad tournaments, it was all due to money. I am self employed contractor and have been pretty lucky to stay busy but when you get layed off and are only bringing half of what you used too, wrestling isn't as important as food or a roof.
I wanted to protect my funds and attend the biggest tournaments i could so we stayed home from the smaller ones, I am sure that people just were nbot wrestling as much this year because of money. Kansas wrestling is pretty good, if we could just get single brackets for all ages and weights, I say don't jump the gun on cancellations when half the state is layed off.

just an opinion Mike Pirl

blt makes some good points here, where does communication come in to play, when scheduling these tourneys. when is the deadline to set your tourney in stone. $$$ is very tight these days for everyone and everthing, more and more decisions are based on $$$ alone. i appreciate chad's honesty, and his willingness to participate in this discussion. let's keep working it out and come up with some good groundwork for next year.

The reason for some open tournaments and qualifiers is you have to keep the weekend with your venue or the next year you may not get it. So you do two tournaments so the next year you have a venue for one.

The "best" do not need to be wrestling each other every weekend. The pressure on the kids is incredible when they have to wrestle monster matches every weekend. How do you think 8 and 10 year old kids feel when everybody in the gym comes up to them and tells them how much they are looking forward to their match. PRESSURE, and then it becomes no fun. If your kid is one of "the best", take them to JOC, Tulsa, and other tournaments to find out. They don't need to be tested every weekend. They need to have fun most weekends.

If I personally do not agree with something I am going to voice my personal opinion. I am adamantly against this. I have given numerous reasons; Hurts local tournaments, belittles the State Series Tournaments, gives false achievment, will cost to much money, and most tournaments can not support a 1000 entry tournament. That is enough of the picture for me to believe it is bad for Kansas wrestling.

it will not cost too much, it will not change entries by that much, does not give false achievment because a kid wins over course of 6 tournaments rather than one tournament, so I will agree on it might belittle the state tournament. why does everyone think its adding more tournaments and changing things a ton from the way things are now. it might sway some of the better kids from other districts but overall it will be the best kids going for the series and thats what I want is for my son to wrestle the best competition and not go to a tournament and get a bye, then a match against a novice wrestler then a decent wrestler. That was my experience this year and thats why i am for change but if its going to change the meaning of being a state champion then I have to think differently.

If you are looking for tough competition for your kid here is a schedule for you:
Amarillo Nationals, Kickoff Classic, Park Hill Tournament, Park Hill Duals, JOC, AAU Winter Nationals, Tulsa Nationals, Salina, Liberty Nationals, Wichita Classic. None of these tournaments fall on the same weekend. If you win all of them you are pretty darn salty. For fun you could add in the Monster Match Nationals or Rocky Mountain Nationals in October for fun. Finish the year up with USA Nationals in Iowa.

i thought it was about saving money. i really dont think that is about saving money. I did the cliff keen, tulsa and missed salina due to a wedding. will not go to liberty or brute until they decide to charge a decent fee and not give the coaches all the bling. I dont go to tournaments for the hospitality room or to pay 90 dollars to coach then get a jacket or a shirt. will probably try the cotton bowl next year and probably go back to tulsa. I have 5 kids and 2 play on a travel basketball team so i have to spend wisely. 5 dollars extra for 5 or 6 tournaments is alot less expensive than all those tournaments you just named. if kansas is the way everyone against the series talks about then we should get that competition as my son will be at the bottom of 10 under next year. now if you want to sponsor a team kansas where we dont have to pay for all the travel expenses to those big tournaments then i am in.

How would travel be cut if we did a series of tournaments? Unless of course the plan is to have all of them in KC:)

you just add it to the tournaments that are already running in place. that has been the idea from the start. you take the tournaments like derby, maize, salina, wichita classic, western ks classic and one somewhere on the east side of kansas. that has been said from the get go. i dont have all the answers but those that are planning on starting the series hopefully do. you cant knock it til you try it and until we try it and it fails or succeeds i dont have a problem trying it. majority of the best kids in kansas go to those tournaments anyways. it would only draw a few other good kids from other areas at the same time maybe drop a few of the borderline good kids that could wrestle in the smaller tournaments to help those numbers. like i said i have no idea how it will turn out and how the final stages would be and dont think anyone else can say it will succeed or fail until it is put in place and attempted. yes kansas kids wrestling is good but not the best and hopefully thats a goal of those that do all that traveling. i want to be able to go to tulsa and have everyone else talking about kansas. i dont want to be like them i want to beat them.

Three of the six tournaments would be in District 2? The other three Districts would hold one tournament. That sounds like a lot of travel for the other three districts.



Then you need to go where they are: The Kickoff, Tulsa, USJOC, etc. You can't beat them if you don't wrestle them.

Oklahoma's series charges $1 per kid, and it is pooled together for the end of year awards. They have 10-15 tourneys on their schedule that take part. Most of the time the best kid in the age and weight doesn't win the end of year award. It is the kid that goes to the most tourneys, there by accumulating the most points. Winning that Oklahoma series points title is nothing to get too excited about. I don't think a Kansas series would be any different.

I was about to puke this weekend when the words "All American" were used about 500 times at Brute. Brute is a fun tourney, cool venue, way too expensive, but most brackets are average AT BEST. There was only one other kid in my son's Brute bracket that could have placed at my son's KS Kids State bracket, so our State tourney was MUCH tougher than his Brute bracket.

I am all for keeping a kid interested by encouraging him when he does well. BUt at the same time, I am TOTALLY against all of the false smoke we blow up kids' rears with the All American talk that they hear at tourneys like Brute that are no tougher (in some brackets) than your local tourneys. And even if it is tougher than your local tourneys, and has some out of state kids, that shouldn't give it the "right" to call itself a tourney that grants AA status.

Giving out these big awards for this series is silly talk as well. What we need to concentrate on is WHO they are wrestling, not WHAT they are winning. I believe you learn more from a loss to a tough kid, than you do beating an average kid. The problem is most parents are not very anxious, or willing, to watch their kid get his butt whippped. A good mix of local tourneys where they can excel, and several tough tourneys like Tulsa to keep 'em humble is what I think is best. I made several of those 0-2 drives to Tulsa early on in my son's "career"!! Then you move up to winning a match or two, then the agony of just missing the podium, to getting on the podium, etc. There is no instant gratification in this sport. It takes time.

The above is my thoughts on making Kansas wrestling better as a whole. Some people choose to not get as "serious" as others. Nothing wrong with that. I just haven't ever learned how to show a kid how to have a good time when he is getting whipped every match. You can only talk up the "small wins within a loss" so much.

Hey my kid is a brute all-american darnit lol he asked me what the certificate was for and i told him it would make a tremendous paper airplane, so thats what we used it for when we got home.
People need to realize that we are training these kids for the future and that we are not wrestling these matches that we want them in every weekend. Ask your sons or daughters if they want to wrestle 2-1 or overtime matches every week. My son strives and wants to be the best but also wants to go to some locals and get some good fun matches in. Tulsa every weekend is way too much for any kid to handle.
Also if you want your son to keep improving don't just wrestle the big tourneys on your up year, We were on the bottom this year and traveled to all the same toyurneys as our up year and did just fine. he didn't place at all of them but we were competetive and learned.

just my opinion Mike Pirl

chad I did say i went to cliff keen and tulsa. went 0-2 at cliff keen. placed 5th at tulsa. placed first at ted anderson that also had several of okies best. so yes my son has been there and beat an oklahoma state champion at the wichita classic. I didnt say anything about what tournaments have to be set in stone for the series. those were just some of the tournaments that i can think of that the best kids travel to. I also think one of the tournaments on the east side of the state could turn into an eastern kansas classic then we have west, central and east covered. why not have most of them in the center of the state where its a fair drive from all directions to save on that expensive gas. i will be making the trip back to some of those big tournaments next season as I will have 2 sons wrestling and both on the bottom side of age groups. i cant speak for everyone else but for me the series sounds like it would be worth a try. if it works then great. if it doesnt then will it kill kansas wrestling in one year. if it hasnt killed oklahoma in how many years they have been running it then i cant see it killing it in kansas. first off nobody even knows if those tournaments would even say yes to be part of the series anyways. im sure that would be the first step as to getting what tournaments would even be part of it.

This is not set in stone so don’t freak out...
The details are not exact either but it gives an idea as to what we are looking for.

To be a part of the Kansas Series a club would have to do a few things:

1. Part of every entry would go into a fund to pay for the end of the year recognition. Some clubs let their own wrestlers wrestle for free at home events. They would still be responsible for paying the series fee. Oklahoma does $1 per entry. I think we would try to shoot for the same amount.

2. All results must be accurate and would have to be turned into USAWKS and the series coordinator within 72 hours of the end of the tournament.

3. All series points’ brackets will have to be single brackets. No multiple brackets per weight unless you are running a novice tournament as well.

4. All series events must offer a 14U division.

5. All series events must offer all weight classes for each age division. Yes weights can be combined but only if they follow allowed weight difference guidelines.

6. Be a part of a preseason tournament scheduling meeting to try to maximize dates and locations throughout the state. A weekend can have more than one series tournament on the same weekend if they are far enough apart.

We will also look at rules about the number of certified refs per tournament.
We would also like series clubs to be willing host and allow satellite weigh ins.
We would also like series clubs to be willing to assist other series tournaments with table workers or other personnel if needed.

There would also be bonus point criteria available:
We would also like tournaments to offer an Outstanding Wrestler Awards for each age based upon a consistent series criteria.
We would also set up a weighting system based upon size of bracket or number of matches wrestled or if it is a bracket that has wrestlers from multiple districts.


Please look these over and provide any feedback you can. ANY suggestions on tweeking or adding criteria is welcomed.
I think all of these criteria strengthen the credibility of a series tournaments and awards wrestlers for seeking and wrestling tough brackets.

So... isn't it already a "series" if those tournaments are attracting some of the best kids in the state?

Not sure those tournaments can handle more numbers anyway.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. Seems you are concerned with cost (as is everyone else), but don't want to travel far, but want good competition for your sons (admirable,...we all do.) Why not just look on Track Wrestling at the end of the season at your son's profile. There's your series. It's called a season.

More than one series tournament per week? You just took any validity away from a series. So already we are seeing greed come into the picture. This will not be a five or six club series. Anybody that wants to be part of the series can. All you have to do is make sure you pay your dues.

Extra points for weighted brackets and OW? Who decides which brackets are tough? How will the OW be decided? Most are decided by fastest pin, which doesn't teach wrestling. It teaches Headlocks, Snakes, Twister's and all the other muscle moves that retard a wrestlers growth.

Single brackets? That just shot most of District 1 out of the water as they are huge fans of multiple RR brackets for more mat time.

What are you going to do about size of tournaments? I don't know if Maize and Derby are even interested, but they have been brought up. They are near capacity right now. I would think there could not be a limit on wrestlers to a series event. We need to make sure everyone has a chance at the points. So what happens when a "series tournament" can't handle anymore entries?

If a series is started, there will be an entry fee increase within 3 years. The "awards" will get bigger and bigger and they will have to pay for them somehow. Your entry fees will go up.

The more thought people put in to this series the more this topic is dumbing me to death. I've yet to see a benefit for kansas wrestling. Its just seems like a kansas wrestling version of Goverment health care. Something select few are trying to jam down our throats


913-314-4529

beeson your right there are alot of things that need to be figured out before it is set in stone. as to my sons profile i didnt put that on there for you to perk up at. i put that on there cause someone said i needed to go to those tournaments after i already said i did. im not 100 percent on board with the series i would like to give it a try as i have given several tournaments within the state a try. some good some bad. if it doesnt work its an easy fix and its done. nothing hurt. my only concern is if it really hurts the credability of the state tournament. i also agree with beeson on ow cause if your pinning every kid with a headlock in 10 seconds that isnt learning how to wrestle cause come highschool time your not going to pin many good kids with a headlock period. i have given my ideas on this and i am moving on to my baseball season. if those involved make the series happen i will back it. if not then i will still be wrestling just like i did this year.

First off I said these were ideas...
And not to freak out



Second: Yes more than one per week. Cause some clubs will never change their weekend. Park City and Western Ks will always be on the same weekend. I wish it wasn’t so but...

Where do you see greed here? You have used that term over and over and I don’t see it. Just like your Monopoly term! It’s not like someone or a club will be taking money as an admin fee. It’s just a way to help create stronger tournaments and make people get out of their sand box and wrestle better competition INSIDE of Kansas. Maybe even draw competition from outside of KS. Wouldn’t it be nice if all the strong OK kids came to us instead us to them?



This is like saying the sun is going to set! You are going to see entry fees start to climb over the next 3 years anyway. That has nothing to do with wrestling it our economy!

So are you saying you are against OW awards?


1st We don’t need MOST of district 1s tournaments to make this work but we do need a few. I encourage mat time and RR as much as the next guy but in cases like these, one bracket is the way to go!

You know I’ve heard a lot of people get on here and criticize other people for not stepping up and TRYING to make a difference. Maybe thats why not very many people do. But we agree that change is needed. Isnt that why you got involved as a D2 rep?
So Ive heard all the reasons why this idea supposedly isnt going to work. What are all of you going to do next year to try to leave our sport better then you found it or are you just going to sit back and think you are doing your part by finding fault in everyone elses ideas?
Thats not promoting change or breathing life it to our sport!
Thats just dying slower!

Lance Tracy

I like kansas wrestling the way it is. I dont want to be like oklahoma or any other state. We have tournaments from dec-may. If you kid is not getting enough tough matches WRESTLE UP IN AGE GROUP!!! I am tired of hearing how great oklahoma wrestling is. People not happy because we dont do it like Oklahoma. We have our own state & our own way of doing things. I wrestle kansas because thats where i like it the best. Dont change a thing Kansas you dont have to copy another state. I am not saying KS wrestling cant be improved, just saying we dont have to copy Oklahoma to do it.

Ok
I understand your point here! And I am not saying OK or any other state is better then KS. But you can look and see somethings that other people are doing good and incorparate into what we are already doing great...
But tell me why when people get on here and talk about ALL these big bad tournaments its always OK, OK, OK, Mo and oh ya by the way the Classic is pretty good too...
We are still second fiddle and until we are on top then why stop trying unless you enjoy the view!

Because they have a distorted view of things. People always think the grass is greener on the other side. My boys (& most of you know who they are) never have a problem finding a kid that can beat them right here in Kansas. Complaining & wrestling in other states is not good for Kansas wrestling this I am sure of.

Until Oklahoma requires USA cards, Kansas will not draw a huge number of Oklahoma kids. Why should they come wrestle in our series when they have their own?



They do not have to increase in the next three, five or ten years. Too much bling is what makes entry fees increase. Let's keep it affordable.


Yes! Even though my club gives them out, I am personally against them. At least in the since of fastest pin.

Its not about them wrestling in our series its about them coming to OUR tournaments for the great compettion, big brackets, and yes the BLING!

No they don't have to increase over the next few years but neither does the cost of a gallon of milk but you are a fool to think that it won't.



Well I have never heard you get on here and talk about how stupid you think the AC tournament is for giving OW awards. Is it greed for your club that keeps you from doing that?

You know Chad
When we started kicking this idea around we made a little list of people we thought we would have to have on board to make this thing work. You were on that list! So Im not giving up on you!

This is not the place for me to voice my opinion to the board members of my club. I do that at the meetings. I never said I was adamantly against O.W. awards. There are differring degrees of disagreement, O.W. awards although I disagree with, I can live with. This series idea is a totally different monster.

As for the awards for the 6-8 unders & kids new to the sport it does matter. My youngest son started wrestling when he was 4 ys old & wrestled over 30 matches & won 2. The next year he started winning about 80% of his matches. We decided to go to the Beloit round robin & they had trophys for first only. I told him & he was very happy about the idea of wrestling for a trophy. At the tournament he wrestled very good. He was not leaving without that award!! He won & on the 2 hour ride home I looked in the back seat & there he was sleeping still holding his torphy in his lap with both hands! This is one of many good memorys I have of Kansas wrestling. Now that they are older they really dont care about awards any more. We have left several tournaments without getting the awards because they did not want to wait in a long line.

"1st We don't need MOST of district 1s tournaments to make this work but we do need a few. I encourage mat time and RR as much as the next guy but in cases like these, one bracket is the way to go!"

You don't need District 1's tournaments to make this work? Or all of them anyway? How does it support or improve KANSAS WRESTLING. Shouldn't it need support from all districts? That statment in itself shows exatly the good ole boy system this idea appears to come from. Not that I really care, I see no way it improves Kansas Wrestling thus will choose not to praticipate. Rewards or not just hit the tough tournaments like always. And see quality competetion like normal, And this idea will go away. I would accually like to see how single sided this is lets put a pole counter on it and see if I'm wrong Lance.

What I was trying to express is we need all the clubs in District 1 to support this but we don't need every tournament in District 1 to be a series tournement.
If District 1 loves RR then by all means go for it. But in order it get good coverage we would need some of District 1's tournaments to step up and be a part of this. And that would mean that tournament would have to step away from the RR format if there is less then six kids in that weight.
You know if we could get one to three clubs from each district to try this out the first year. I think it would show its potential.
The entries in those tournaments would be up.
IThe level of competition would be up.
And people would get to see some new faces that they normally wouldn't see.

All of those things are positives for KS Wrestling.

Three clubs from each district would be 12 tournaments, and that is just to realize the potential. I thought this was just going to be 4-6 of the best tournaments. Start adding the extra gas, hotel stays, food, extra vacation days for all of the travel, and the entry fees to pay for the awards. Are you seriously going to try and have a Salina weekend, every weekend? That's what is nice about Salina, it is a tough tournament once a year. Get out your wallets boys, if you pay enough you could buy earn win some fabulous prizes. How is this helping Kansas Wrestling?

Chad
When did you finally figure out this sport isnt cheap?

Why don't you look at it from a different point of view.
With these tournaments you are paying for the increased competition and they will throw in the increased bling for free.
Would that make you feel better?

We get all of the competition that we need. We don't need increased competition. Here is Ark City's schedule from last year.

Nov 7 Morrison Ok
Nov 14 Blackwell Ok
Nov 20 Cliff Keen Kickoff
Dec 12 Ark City
Dec 19 Derby
Jan 02 USJOC
Jan 09 Goddard
Jan 16 Winfield
Jan 22 Tulsa Nationals
Jan 30 Salina TOC
Feb 06 Maize
Feb 13 Haysville
Feb 20 Douglass
Feb 27 Mulvane
Mar 06 Wichita Classic
Mar 13 State Series Starts

All of the competition we NEED, and the Bling is pretty good also. Why does my club need more? That is about as competitive as it gets and can still be fun.

If you cant find tough matches on this schedule going to Oklahoma or Missouri or Timbucktu aint gonna help!!!

Just a little insight to another state. Three years ago my son wrestled in Pa where they run a top 100 type of series. This is the top 100 kids regardless of age or weight in the state. I was distorted into thinking that this was some kind of incredible achievment until I realized that the top 100 were the top 100 families with the best jobs.
I was initially for a series in Kansas but just cannnot seem to find something positive that it will bring. If bringing false feelings of greatness to mediocre kids is what we are looking for than I say forge ahead!!!! I don't ever want to put down the hopes and dreams of any child great good mediocre or poor, but I also do not believe in false hope or false awards.
Too many awards are already being given out in Kansas Wrestling.
Top 3 at weekend tournaments and top 6 at state and nationals is plenty. I have left awards at tournaments as a result of not winning any matches, if you don't win you can't EARN an award.

looks like a tough schedule, doesn't look much different than ours. except we leave our own district more than you, to seek ks competition. i think most people on here wrestle a schedule equally as tough. i think the point is trying to bring the competition together more often, in the state. you leave the state 5 times, yet don't wrestle in district 1 or 4. only see district 3 at salina. it doesn't make it a bad schedule or good schedule, just a different way to look at it.

look like i have said before i don't agree with more "bling", all american awards etc. i even think the cliff keen all american status is more about a pocket book than the best wrestlers. but i also think there is SOME good in this.

i don't think it should be more than 6 tournaments, and i don't think the entry fees should be any more expensive, even $1 is too much. the bottom line is this if you don't want to support it don't, if you like it work on it. until then seek out all the competition you can, in state. because i promise it's just as tough here as anywhere else. if you don't want to wrestle multiple matches agains ks opponents to avoid to much familiarization, then don't. it is what it is, do what you want to do.

In fairness, 3 of the times we leave the state, Kansas is not wrestling yet.

Seeking out competition in the state is harder than just going to tournaments in Kansas. I wrestle my kid up in weight and age but when you have 37 brackets at that same age and weight it becomes difficult to get good matches.

Here is an opinion, stop separating brackets, if you wrestle the same moderate kids every week all year you are still going to be moderate at the end of that year.

ever heard of the saying" steel sharpens steel " well great wrestlers make other great wrestlers. stop worrying about the kids losing they will catch up or find that this may not be their sport, but allowing them to realize that it isn't their sport after 5 or 6 years of kids club when they are getting killed in highschool is doing a disservice to the kids also....

just an opinion Mike Pirl

Why should you care. According to the schedule you posted
(and it is a tough schedule)!!
But isnt it funny how 1/3 of that regular season schedule is out of state and they only leave district 2 once for Salina. Maybe the other three districts are willing to travel cause its the only way they are going to get to see the studs from AC cause they sure don't go to them!




I see that rule applies to the OK competition but where is all the travel around KS? How does all your travel south and not North East or West improve KS wrestling?

Now just for the record...
Our clubs schedule looks very similar!
But Im telling you that is what killed the 10u 110 D2 kids this year at state. If I had to bet I would of said that all 4 of them would of placed. But instead we ran into Hanzlick and Boman from Hosington and Liberal.
They were no where on our radar and Boman destroied EVERYONE.
Spencer and Jasean ran close with Hanzlick but in the end he was better that day.

Next year, Im getting out of my box and Im going to find the tournaments that those far away kids are going to.
AND
Im going to try to find a way to intice some of them to come to us as well.
I would hope that a series would intice EVERYONE in KS to get out of their own sand box and walk around the yard (KS) a little more.
Is there a cost to it? Yes! But thats the price of our sport!

Ha Ha
I was posting and walked away from the PC to come back and see Head Ups post.
Funny!

If a series intices all the best kids you still would wrestle the same best kids every weekend. I think it is good to travel around your state as well as other states close to your neck of the woods. We make trips to Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, Oklahoma and Kansas. Makes your kids more diverse to different styles and lets them know that the world is bigger than "your own back yard" check out the neighborhood. Travel to any of these places is the same for me as it would be to go to a tournament in district 1 (Pittsburg), District 2, District 3 or District 4. About 2-3 hours any direction or more and hotel stays.

Looks pretty dang stout to me. That is a very competitive schedule from what have heard about these tournaments.

not contradicting anything on here as again we wrestle in ok, and mo quite a bit we are close as well. but i know in a few brackets we have been in the last few years in wichita we have faced off against the same ok, and mo kids. same at kickoff, and tulsa natls. yet we have only faced out in state studs one during the year. those ks kids were as tough as any, but then again maybe it's best to only face them once, keep the scouting out of the equation. again do it or don't it won't hurt. imo.

You know BLT I just have to laugh being from D4 I watch Chris wrestle all year and saw Hanzlick quite a bit. Then I would get on here and wonder did you guys even know about these D4 boys apparently not. I am sure some dad's were wondering where Wilkerson from Plainville and Thomas from Scott City came from also. that would be 10 and under 120 and 10 and under 67. Come visit us out here we are waiting.

I had seen their names but had never seen them wrestle. I did see the scores they had against similar opponents and they were close to what we had done but that in no way did it do them justice! Especially Boman!
In my opinion Spencer Tracy and Hunter Hanzlick took it to the limit in triple OT! Very close match that could of went either way. Hanzlick was a beast that was just too big and too strong for Spencer to keep down. Hunter was the biggest kid in that bracket and Spencer was the smallest. Up until that point, that was the best match I’ve seen Spencer wrestle all year! I was sweating bullets the entire match. Hanzlick's corner was too!
That is part of the reason I am pushing for this series. The fact that these kids never seen each other until state is a shame. Seeing this level of competition (win or lose) a few more times a year only makes for stronger wrestlers. And that in return makes for a stronger state series and THAT is good for KS wrestling!

And I am very aware of the Willy Wilkerson’s and the Kane Hutchinson’s out there in D4! We wrestled both of them over the last 3 years. They have just out grown my boy!
But I also coach Zach Bowen and he’s their size! I just wish we would get to see these guys more throughout the year. I don't call it scouting! I call it competing!

BLT I watch the D4 boys get overlooked on this forum all the time. You just don't see many kids from other districts travel into D4 to wrestle with the exception of the Western Kansas Classic.

I totally understand. That's why I'm in favor of the series idea. I hope some people will chase the points and the competition and the series schedule will force them to have to get out around the state more. This will encourage more kids out to D4 at least a couple more times a year. That is great for D4 and really gives those kids more opportunity to see some different talent without having to leave the state.
And that is great for KS wrestling.

Really? I don't know about you but I don't like to be FORCED into doing anything. Wow, let's force them to spend money. Don't give them a choice. Make them have to go to these tournaments. Not for me thanks.

Not that much of a different drive from say goodland D4 to center of kansas as Kansas city D1 to the center. Seems to me I see D4 wrestlers at all the tough tournaments Salina, Park city, Hays. I you drive 3 hours whats 5 hours same boring scenery. Seems you just have an issue with people wrestling out of Kansas? Looks like going to FORCE some to leave more often Jamming this CRAP down the throats of everyone. Seems your the only one pushing for this

Did you read whole post or just pick out the one word you could find to disagree with. lol
It said if you were going to chase the points and if you want the best competition throughout the state then yes your are FORCED to get out of your own back yard.
Like it or not...
Its a fact

I have been giving this some thought as I am sure many of us have and haven't put our two cents in. I can understand why some would want this series, but Chad makes some very valid points that can't be overlooked.

I would like to add this...When our club goes to a tournament, we go as a team with one exception...Salina. We split and have our less experienced kids go to Hoisington. That particular weekend is a nightmare for our coaches. One of these two tournaments (Hoisington or Salina) will not have enough coaches to adequately handle the number of wrestlers signed up. Additionally, some us dads/coaches have to miss our kids tournament to coach the other tournament.

If we have several weekends where we (the entire wrestling community) are FORCED to choose the series tournaments over what we normally choose to attend, I think possibly we will have parents of kids who aren't ready to attend these "toughter" tournaments get discouraged because they might feel like their kid is getting over looked. I think it's quite possible that clubs might split because of the hard feelings this may cuase. Just a thought...this might be a little extreme.

I don't see what is funny about that. What I do find sad is you putting a spin on this to make it look how you want. 1/3 of our regular season is out of state? Did you notice that 3 of the 5 tournaments you are crying about are before there are any Kansas tournaments.

As far as leaving District 2 only once for Salina. I'm sorry, but we believe in supporting the clubs that support our Tournament. The clubs of District 2. I guess if you would like we could miss Haysville next year and travel out of District on that date.



Except for a few clubs I did not see alot of traveling from the other Districts either. They were doing the same thing, supporting their Districts. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You can travel as much as you want or as little as you want. This schedule works for us.



And I will choose where I spend that money. I can guarantee it wont be on the series. Our schedule will not change much next year. We will probably add "Sprawl", and exchange another Districts tournament for Haysville. Just trying to walk around the yard, and I know you are for that.

I dont see how you can count tulsa kickoff & nationals & usjoc & two oklahoma tournaments BEFORE KS SEASON against them?? I see this as a loyal KS club. The roller tournaments are true national tournaments. They are the toughest kids tournaments in the nation!! I can understand why people go there, to see how they do against the best in the nation. We dont have that in kansas or any other state. This is a reason to wrestle out of state.

Greg Pelland does bring up a good point. Clubs would have to split coaching duties making it difficult for the club. I know when some of the team goes to Tulsa and USJOC the rest of the team goes to Valley Center and Bishop Carroll. This did make it difficult having enough coaches for both tournaments.

I still don't see how chasing the "points" For your award is going to improve KANSAS WRESTLING. THATS YOUR ARGUEMENT YOU WANT TO IMPROVE KANSAS WRESTLING BY HAVING A SERIES. Now how is your your series improving Kansas Wrestling.
LIKE IT OR NOT...
IT DOESN'T AND THATS A FACT

it improves it by having the best kids at the same tournament within the borders of kansas. thats how it helps kansas wrestling. enough with taking a small part here and a small part there to try and tear this thread up. when i first heard about the series i was all for it. now after all the discussion i have mixed thoughts on it. like head up says how the hell can you say it will not work if you have never even attempted it. if you dont want to do it then dont but dont sit there and say it doesnt work because its a fact that other states have done it and made it successful. those are the same states that are ahead of kansas at the highschool national level. im not saying that the series is the reason for that but there are some people that are trying to make a difference and others bitching about everything instead of doing something about it. if your with it then i say help out with your thoughts. if your against it then just dont do it. its that simple. but to say it will not make kansas wrestling better by putting the best kids together and giving that little something more to wrestle that much harder for will make it better. traveling 2-4 hours and getting 2 matches that may or may not be tough is not making kansas wrestling better. i am finally finished with this topic. i will still wrestle the same tournaments as we always have because the series probably wouldnt change that anyways.

ok this will be my final thought on this. i have talked to several coaches that like the idea and dont. one thing we have all agreed on is its not about the touraments and bling that make kids better. yes it pumps them up maybe a little bit. its the practice room and partners and structure that makes your kids that much better. going to tulsa and losing 2 matches every time does that really make you better. have a nice summer and cant wait to see you all next season with or without the series. i will not stop going to a tournament just because i dis-agree with someone on a certain topic.

Hey, here's a thought........ASK THE KIDS!! We can't because they are out playing, being kids, while we get on here and argue about things we don't even know if they want. Remember, it is about them and HAVING FUN!!
This is not directed at any one person, just thought everyone should take just a second and remember what this sport is about at this level....having fun. JMO

Wow Chad...
I didn't think when we PMd each other the other day that we were going to take this personal. I get the impression that you have.
I will say this...
If you think that you can find a tournament the same weekend as Haysville and you think that is best for your club and your wrestlers then I encourage you to do that. Just don't be petty and do it cause you disagree with someone over a talk fourm issue.
Again this is just something we would like to try to put together and wanted to get feedback on. If it happens or not is yet to be seen but if not I hope that someone steps up and does something cause I am a little concerned about some of the warning signs we are seeing.

BLT hate to tell you this but Kane Hutchinson is from D3. He is a Junction City boy. In our club we had kids at Park city, Hutchinson, Manhattan,Mulvane, Salina. Only district we didn't hit was D1. So we do travel we really don't hide out west. The series should be a choice. Some of the boys in our club won't travel far for what ever reason mom says no, money, time or even because they no the ability and do want the competion to each his own you will never get everyone to agree on this. BLT if you want it bad enough you will have to find a group of other people that do and fight for it cause it will be a fight. As for D4 most of us have to drive at the least 30 min at the most 4 hours just to wrestle in our own district. With that kinda drive time you can see why sometimes we don't travel out of district.

We already have a series that brings great kids to a series of tounaments. Wrestling season Some weekends are tougher than others? Everybody knows in the past the tougher tournaments Salina, Park City, Hays, Maize etc. We all go and every year we go hoping to do well like everyone else. What are you changing by calling a group of tournaments a series? You want some these tournaments to agree to this so you can create some sort of award? Being lucky enough to place of even win is enough of an award for us, especilly at these bigger tournaments. Now if your goal is to get these tournaments to work together so we don't have conflicting dates ie. Hays and Park City. Couldn't that be solved with a couple of phone calls? Wouldn't tournament directors want to get the best bang for there buch. But as we said before in this forum if Park City and Hays were on differnt days can Either place hold the capasities it might generate?

As coaches you want to make Kansas wrestling better continue your wrestling education. Go to clinics support camps and summer wrestling Get your kids involved in in summer wrestling Freestyle Greco. Teach you wrestlers to admire and inspire others by continuing to enjoy the sport year round. the other states that were always talking about Kansas is behind are the same states that start in oct have state in feb. And Freestyle and greco til april. And on any day of summer wrestling practice in OK, mo. Go in there and count the kids not busting thier butts but keeping it fresh and having a blast wrestling year round. We have practice every thursday optional And 1 Sunday a mounth for six hours the parents bbq and the kids take several breaks and have fun enjoying the time with all thier friends and team mates. Thats the key to making Kansas a better wrestling state

Jon I totally agree with you on that post. I have been saying that from the start. I would do freestyle and greco if it was sooner. I want my son to enjoy other sports as well. I would practice all summer once a week even with other clubs if he chose to. I would really like to be able to drive out west and wrestle the western kansas classic, wrestle the park city classic and an east kansas classic. im sure with the right people involved it could happen. might have to change a few things here and there but anything will work if the work is put into it to help make it work.

If there is a match you want your kid to wrestle, call the other kid's coach or parents and ask where they will be, what weight, and enter that tourney.

Sorry to use Oklahoma as an example again, but that series did NOT draw the best kids to each tourney. It drew the kids that the tourney was most convenient to.

Every year we went to any of the series tourneys, we had kids that were in the top 3 in points with us, that my kid NEVER WRESTLED!!

I really don't think the series would draw the kind of numbers you might hope for.

I agree with trying to get the Wichita and Western KS Classics to get different dates. But I don't agree we ought to give out ANOTHER award to the kids that accumulate the most points between the two, or 4, or 6 other tourneys that become part of the series.

My two cents worth. I don't think our club's schedule would change because of a series.

This being the case what I hear is we need to implement a way to influence communications between tournament directors to figure out a way to schdule tournaments to optimize club praticipation. If this is what we need maybe we could start a comitee of people by district to try to work with other districts to achieve the best schdule by working with each other.

I know thats easier said than done. As most tournaments are set in weekends that run around all school functions. But as we do it now, its every man for themselves and clubs just hope for a great turnout but maybe by cooperationing we can firgure out a way to fix some of the cancellations due to poor entry numbers? Which only hurts the clubs bottom lines. Which directly effects the kids due to money issues these clubs rely on.

Sorry, I just needed to get your attention. After I said we might schedule another tournament on your date, I called and let one of your coaches know that I had every intention of going to Haysville next year. My point is, which tournament would I have to scratch off of our schedule to chase the series points? Would that be fair to them, just because they weren't part of the series? How did you feel when you thought we would be dropping your tournament? Your feelings were hurt and you knew your club was going to miss out on our entry fees. This is one of the reasons why I am against the series. If your not part of the series, your tournament will suffer.

We will be at Haysville next year. No hard feelings big guy. Just wanted you to see what a series could do to tournaments and friendships.

there is hope here yet. wether its in the way of a series or other ways at least some of you guys are giving your input and trying to figure something out rather than say nothing will work. now we just have to figure out how to make it work together and show up in numbers at the nationals and let kansas make a move forward and not stay the same or take steps backward. you guys can say its because those other states wrestle year round all you want. if thats the case then so be it for them. its up to us to come up with something to beat that. i dont see my kids ever wrestling year round competatively but will practice throughout the summer some. would love to try freestyle and greco but its after a long folkstyle season and have already started baseball tournaments by that time. wrestling cant be perfect for everyone but we as a state need to come together and out do the rest. if your goal is to be in the top 10 then great. my goal is to be number one.

First I just want to say that my reply to your post was a honest one. I would NEVER fault you for taking your club or kid to a different tournament if you honestly did it for the betterment of the kids. I understand your point Chad. I undertsand all the points made on this issue. I just think that we have a group of highly motivated people in some key spots in this organization and maybe now is the time to try some new things and push some new ideas.
I can only speak from what I know... I'm not saying Haysville is Louis and Clark but we have been some of the first clubs to try new things for the betterment of our sport.
Five or Six years ago someone asked Haysville to try laptops at each table. They did it tanked and chased away a lot of people.
Then they asked Haysville to try a split format. At first people complained now its the standard.
Then we tried satellite weigh ins and seems to be catching on.
Last year we tried a girls division and it didn't work out that well.

Point I'm trying to make is sometimes someone needs to step up and try new things. If you want a district scheduling meeting then we will help. If you want to run a series we will help. Mat side weigh ins I don't know maybe we can talk. If someone has ideas then let them fly. But its always people gunning down everything and never attempting to suggest anything. It makes people not even want to try. I just think the sport needs to evolve and I just don't see it happening.
I won't give up on this. I'm going to listen to ideas and maybe tweek it a little and keep pushing change.

Change is not always good...it has to be positive change. We don't need to change just for the sake of changing. Some of the ideas you talked about "tanked", and the damage is hard to overcome.

By the way, alot of change happened this year. The High School Division was added, remote weigh-ins took off, Sprawl was added, and the Wichita Classic moved out of the barn. Lots of positive change, and more to come next year.

no harm seen here, if you don't want to don't, but don't try to tell me how to spend my money. no one would force you to do anything, your competitveness would take care of that.

blt i say find 3 other clubs (1 from each district) and start it up, if it works without beeson,luellen, trowbridge, sportsfan and others so be it. if it doesn't so what, those who stand around to tell you " i told you so" get their day in the sun. so what.

don't forget about track wrestling, it seemed to work out well. change is necessary, no matter what you are doing. you cannot deny it.

Thats your best advice "piss on those guys BLT" go get'em Tiger you can do it. Sounds like that friend you know the one. When you get caught in a dark alley is the first to run and find help but doesn't stay to help. AWESOME

You know...
Here are my problems now!
1st of all I have never heard nothing but common sense from Head Up so until I’m in that alley and until he turns and runs I won’t pass judgment and welcome any positive advice or encouragement!
2nd of all the views given by the list of leaders above are taken very seriously among the wrestling community. To try to start something like this needs all the support it can get. I hope the damage hasn’t already been done!
I think this idea has merit and I plan to work on it in the off season. I might not get all four districts the first go round but it won’t be a valid series until I do!

You are right and some didnt! But we wouldnt know any of that if no one wouldnt of tried it!



I agree but there were was still some important things slip thru the cracks!
1. We are still in Topeka! lol
2. There is still an issue with the upper and lower weight classes!

Cause if they are "Chasing the points" that means that wrestler will have wrestled at least 1-2 times in every district in the state. That kind of competition cycling throughout the state certainly cant be bad for Kansas Wrestling can it?

Lets do some math on mileage, gas and hotel cost only. I will use Ark City as a reference point, just because that is where I will be coming from. There are towns closer and farther away but this will be a good measure. Lets say these are your series tournaments: Haysville (2 hours driving, there and back one day), Garden City (8 hours driving, one night hotel), Salina (4 hours driving there and back long day), Olathe (6 hours driving, one night hotel), Maize (2 1/2 hours driving, there and back one day), Colby (10 hours driving, 2 nights hotel stay), Manhattan (6 hours driving, 1 night hotel stay), Paola (6 hours driving, one night hotel stay). That would be for just 8 tournaments in the series, you are wanting 12. So in two months we will have had to stay in a hotel SIX nights at a cost of $360.00. We will have driven for 44 hours which is roughly 121 gallons of gas costing $365.00.

If I stayed in District 2 like I do now, in the same 2 month period I would have driven 9 hours and spent $120.00 in gas. There would be no added cost of staying in Hotels.

I am saving $605.00 not chasing the points. And I am still getting Great Competition. Your series leader will not be the best wrestler, he will be the kid who can afford it.

Bingo!

I can assure you that if you are not freestyle and grecoing, being number one is not gonna happen. If our FS GR numbers don't increase, we can't get there. Plain and simple. We do well at all of the styles, but to take another step upward, we have to get more kids to FS GR.

I have to agree with Doug.

Then next year I will chase the points
See the best KS has to offer from ALL OVER THE STATE.
Skip Brute
And just about break even and get tons more matches.
Thanks Chad.
That's the kind of great advice I knew you were capable of.

And can you really add in Salina Maize and maybe Haysville if you go lol.
I mean you were already going to those anyway right.

I forgot the other cost. I would have to tell Goddard, Winfield, Valley Center, Bishop Carroll, Douglass, Mulvane, and probably Haysville that I could not attend their tournament because it was not a series tournament. Your District 2 Tournaments would have to be Derby, Maize, and The Wichita Classic. I would have to tell all those clubs that I would rather chase the series points instead of supporting them. Sorry, that is a cost I and Kansas Wrestling can not afford.

Just a question- has any of you guys that are posting on this thread had kids that wanted to win the oklahoma points series championship? and why don't we have several of our kansas tournie's involved in their series to start with? maybe to get some okies up here wrestling? can't hurt us at all? and im sure jerry scott would be glad to help us? could be kinda a dual state thing - I know he would help us, I've spoke with him about it. Some kids like to chase the points thing. The series thing is not a bad thing - you can partipate if you want, but you dont have to play either. Seems like if you only wrestle in kansas you see the same faces every weekend anyhow. And just for beeson - my kid liked the hoody and stocking cap they gave out for the winners. He liked the bling! What kid wouldn't like it. We had no issue paying one dollar more for the entry fee to a series tournie, whether or not my kid won. The series is an incentive for SOME kids - but it doesnt mean you'll be a state champion @ the end of the season.

Are you from Kansas? How many Series Tournaments in Oklahoma did you attend to get your bling?

Are their tournaments USAW sanctioned?

Jr High - 7 weeks (21 matches)
Kids - 14 tournaments (49 matches)
Total matches (70)
Different opponents (49)
Weight classes wrestled (2 - kept growing during the season)
Number of matches against the same opponent (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Kids tournaments wrestled outside of D1 (5 - Salina, Lindsborg, Manhattan, Pratt, Chapman)
Matches wrestled outside Kansas (0) - until today (Middle School National Duals - Indianola, Iowa)

i guess if freestyle and greco are the only way kansas will take steps forward then maybe we should start looking at how to get that to grow. if its after a long 6 month season of folkstyle its not going to happen. those numbers will grow maybe at a small pace but i doubt kids that play football and baseball are going to want to do it for 7-8 months competatively. yeah you will have a few but alot would be better.

I don't think that we can really say the season is 6 months long. For a select few it is, but for the majority the season is about 3 months long. Look at tournaments, they really don't get into full swing until the 1st of January. Freestyle and Greco state was moved to May this year. So if the majority of the kids wrestled all three styles they would have a season of 5 months.

I think Doug is on the right track here. Improve Freestyle and Greco numbers. That is the way we need to be improving Kansas Wrestling. We need to make the Triple Crown more competitive.

most of the kids that would be wrestling freestyle and greco will be the ones starting practice in oct. and wrestling the oklahoma tournaments in early november.

trust me i wouldn't run. my advice is if you want something done then do it, it can be a success with or without you. sorry if i struck a nerve. i'm saying that the opposing views are great for proactive decision making, but the same points keep getting brought up, the same few keep saying the same things over and over, there really no new info, coming from the opposing voices. so my advice is yes go ahead and give it a shot. i suspect when it goes we will see you there. again no harm.

Chad, something to keep in mind is that USJOC requires USA cards, so a lot of those Okies do buy one, but only use it at USJOC, so that may not be as much of a deterrent as you might think. So as far as the KS series we are talking about, I still agree with you that I don't think it improves KS wrestling as a whole. No doubt the kids like the bling, but we are really after making kids better wrestlers. Someone earlier asked about "asking the kids". What do you think a kid is gonna say when you say "would you like to get a great big trophy for winning the Kansas Series?"?? He is gonna say yes of course. But is it going to imprve the sport in Kansas? I know BLT is really trying to do this to make it better, but too many others just want another award to hand their kid.

Here is something else to think about when you are talking about bringing kids in: once the first few tourneys are wrestled, kids are going to realize they are OUT of the points race, and not show up, and the numbers will thin out as you get deeper in the series.

If I were to back anything like this, it would have to only be tourneys like Salina, Western Kansas Classic, and Wichita Classic, after those two are split up. No offense to Maize, or other tourneys, but OVERALL I think the three tourneys above are the toughest. I know certain brackets at certain tourneys might be tougher, but overall, that is my opinon.

Chad, you and I might not agree on splitting the team up some weekends. If there is a kid or kids in our club that are not getting beat, he needs to go somewhere to test himself against different competition. We split up quite a bit during the season, but more times than not we are together, building some team spirit. There is plenty of time for that, so I think it is counterproductive to INSIST that the team all goes to the same tourneys.

Doug,

Last year was the first year that the Okies did not need a USA card for USJOC. Talking to some of the guys in charge down there, they will not need them in the future for this tournament either.

I agree about splitting up the team every once in awhile. Kickoff, USJOC, Tulsa, and Salina. That is four times when the hard core kids seperate, while the others are at local tournaments.

Something I could back also, but I sure don't want to call it "The Kanasas Triple Crown" or make up some ridiculous award. Maybe a T-shirt that says "The Big Three" or something. Let's not reward for doing what alot of kids have always been doing, seeking out good competition.

I did some research. Kansas has around 85 local tournaments to choose between during the year. 7 Cancelled this year, or 8.25% of the tournaments. Kansas basically has 14 weeks of tournaments.


Okalahoma had 40 local tournaments to choose between during the year. 4 Cancelled this year, or about 10% of the tournaments. Oklahoma has basically 17 weeks of tournaments.

I do not know how many tournaments that Oklahoma had before the series was implemented, but I would bet it was more than 40. They only had 36 local tournaments make this year. I can also say that the one series tournament we attended this year only had about 450 kids. The other Oklahoma tournament we went to had about the same numbers.

Kansas averages around 5.6 tournaments a weekend, or about 1 in every district. Oklahoma averages about 2.11 tournaments a weekend, or a series tournament and one other. To me it looks like the series is taking over in Oklahoma. If your club is not a part of the series, your club better find another way to fund raise, because you wont do it with a local tournament.

That is some very interesting info!!!
Do you mind if I ask where you got your Oklahoma numbers

I got the information off of the Oklahoma Website, there is a link under our calendar. I did not count Novice Tournaments, only Opens. I also did not count The Kickoff, Tulsa Nationals, or USJOC. Rollers make the money from The Kickoff and Tulsa and the OKWA makes the money from USJOC. USJOC is actually a series tournament, which would help my point rather than hurt it. I did not count it eiher way though.

I counted a little different...
Cause I went to Okseries.com
I took from Oct 17th to Feb 6th!
That’s 17 weeks of wrestling!
NOT INCLUDING THEIR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES!!!

I went through and omitted all the out of state tournaments that list on their calendar.

I counted over 50 individual open tournaments!
I counted around 20 individual novice tournaments!
Of those 70+ tournaments
I counted 4 tournaments that canceled! One of the 4 that canceled was a series tournament!
That gives them about 70 tournaments in a season.
11 are series points tournaments!
That’s about a 6% cancelation rate!

They avg of about 4 tournaments a weekend


In Kansas we had OVER 100 total TOURNAMENTS. That’s individual tournaments. Open or novice! NOT INCLUDING OUR STATE SERIES! That also does not include any OK tournaments that we regularly attend.
That was from Dec 5th to March 6th. That is 14 weekends!
We also had 10 tournaments that canceled! That’s about a 10% cancelation rate!
That is an average of 7 tournaments a weekend not including the ones that canceled or our state series.
Obviously we counted very differently so if someone would like to double check our math please feel free.

But if my numbers are right….
That is a HUGE warning sign!
And series or no series….
SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!

Lance when you count Kansas Tournaments, if they were rescheduled they will show up twice. Once with a line through it and once without. So our numbers were not as high. I believe my count of 85 opens is pretty accurate.

Oklahoma also posts Kansas tournaments. You may have counted some of them. After a recount I have Oklahoma with 45 Open Tournaments. Did you count Roller Tournaments and USJOC?

Point is Kansas wrestles three weeks less and has almost twice as many tournaments. If we go to a series will our tournaments start to wither away also?

I don't see a HUGE warning sign with Kansas holding 5.6 open tournaments a weekend. Three weekends hold 9 tournaments and none of them got cancelled. Kansas Folkstyle is going STRONG and will do fine. We need to work on Kansas Freestyle and Greco, to take the next big step forward.

one thing to keep in mind on the numbers is this. no one has be in favor of more than 6 tournaments for ks, ok has like 15 for the series right? fs and greco need to be more accessible, seems like it's still, a "secret" society, just kidding, it's just more travel, and harder to find a local club. again with the money thing. oh well.

This is a minimum of 4 tournaments in the series and a maximum of 12. That is just to show its potential. Potential to me, means it would grow.

i have stated before that i think any more than 6 is too many. it would be too watered down. here my thoughts on which tourneys should be series tourneys. hays, salina, classic, topeka. that's 1 in each district. if we add any more it would lose some luster. i would like to see it to get some more folks to d1 and d4. potential actually means it might grow. plenty of things/people have potential yet never pan out.

chad if those four tournaments were in a series, you know you would be there. as would the rest of the top kids in ks. competition is good, and yes you can find it in a number of places, including out of state. but aside from topeka these tournaments are already estabished, and attended by many of the states best. topeka used to have a big tourney too, and could easily handle to size, and still be central. the only way this would take away from the state series is if we let it. keep the bling to a minimum. maybe regular medals and a page listed as all-state in the program.

I can honestly say my Schedule would not change.



They already do that, it is the State Placers from the previous year.

I Know I keep fighting this, but I don't see why we should reward kids for seeking out competition. Your reward is a better wrestler, and a State Championship or state placing.

you're absolutely right, what's another page. and i also agree you will be rewarded for seeking out competition, simply by being a better wrestler. but why shouldn't they be rewarded? what one page going to hurt, i mean really.

and if your schedule would not change, my feelings won't be hurt, HONESTLY. i wish you would be on board, but you don't have to be. i don't even know if i can get my club on board, but i will get a few. we go to those tourneys already, except hays. we came close to voting that one in this year, i'm sure next year we will have some make the long trip.

HONELSTY would your feelings be hurt if they do this? really, one page? let me ask you this. why do you go to usjoc? tulsa? kickoff? salina? classic? for the competition, is going to be your answer. what does it hurt? honestly, you are going to argue over one page? this has gone beyond constructive criticism.

so if choose freestyle/greco, what are the age groups and weight limits?

Chad
I did count Roller and JOC!
I also counted Novice only tournaments in both states.
If there was a novice/open I only counted it as 1 tournament.
I also went and took out every KS Tournament on the schedule that had the lines drawn through it!!!

Just off your numbers (No Novice)its over 6 tournaments a week in KS and under 3 per week in OK! And series tournament are only about 1 every other week so they do not control OK wrestling!

They wrestle for 17 weeks. The series has 12 tournaments (USJOC is considered a series tournament). That leaves 5 open weekends. There is not a series tournament on Halloween, Thanksgiving, or Christmas. Tournaments just don't seem to do real well on these dates. We are now down to 2 open weekends. The series also does not have a tournament on Jan. 16th which is YMCA STATE. So basically there is a series tournament every weekend except for one.

If we are averaging 6 Open tournaments a weekend and they are averaging 3, why are we wanting to mimic them if we want to grow?

We have a page to recognize State Champions and placers. We have a page to recognize Triple Crown Winners. It takes away from the real acomplishments of these wrestlers.

It is not like there are going to only be a few winners like the Triple Crown. There will be a winner in every weight at every age. Then we are going to have to have a Series Team 2 and a series Team 3. Where does it stop? Everybody wins. Why don't we put a page in there of everybody that started the season also? Let's stick to real accomplishments; State and Triple Crown.

we have team pictures in the program too, does that take away anyone's state championship. no one can take it away, no one. for being such a ha, you are starting to worry me with all this, diminished accomplishment stuff.

As simple as I can put it. Going to 4 seperate tournaments in 4 seperate Districts does not qualify you as an All State wrestler. It is no kind of accomplishment what so ever. It is nothing worthy of an Award, a Title, or a qualification for being on The Series Team.

The Series Champion would just be the wrestler that went to the most tournaments. Lets score by points like Oklahoma; 10 points for 1st, 8 for 2nd, 6 for 3rd, and 4 for 4th. Wrestler A could take 3rd at every tournament earning 24 points. Wrestler B could take 1st at Two of the tournaments and only earn 20 points. Wrestler C could take 1st and 2nd at two of the tournaments and earn 18 points. Wrestler A would be the "Series Champion", even though he did not win one of the Series tournaments. Just because his daddy could afford to send him to every series tournament. That is not an accomplishment! Why should we recognize him as an "All Stater" or "Series Champ".

If it is that important that the kid feels good, just buy them an Award at State. There is a vendor there just for that reason.

HA

Isn't that how WOW, and The Mat.com do it as far as rankings? 3rd at all of Rollers stuff in a year is seeded higher then a Reno Champ or a Tulsa Nat. Champ at one of there events. Or am I mistaken?

You are correct. Not saying that I like the way they do it either. I think your Tulsa National Champ is the real deal, but they will give it to the All-Star every time.

Yes they both use a similar point system to do their rankings.

If we do end up having a series, I hope we can get Danny Hodge to crush apples at all of the tournaments.

I was thinking of an exhibition match between Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley.

In which post did you ever hear me say ALL STATE wrestler or being part of a series team????

That is so awesome to watch him do!
lol

And performed to at least some extent.

And isnt there something to say for the wrestler or the team that consistantly travels the state going to tough tournaments seeking out good competition and being committed to supporting KANSAS wrestling.

so isnt the actual triple crown winner that because he decided to wrestle another month when half the other kids are out playing baseball. now your taking credit away from those kids by saying that about the series. i would say you have to win every tournament of the series to be called series champion.

Do you really think they deserve a Trophy for that?

You know Scott I'm still unsure as to which way to go on that.
On one hand I say run a points system...
On the other say win it all or nothing but after the first tournament most people would lose interest.
I say run the points but I'm open to suggestion.
That's what this post has turned into is a collection of imput.
Good and Bad

That at least would give it some validity. But the tournaments would get weaker and weaker. If you lost one tournament why should you continue, except to keep someone else from getting it.

now you're getting somewhere. HA. i don't care who wins, if it ain't me, and it ain't my rival. lol. the tulsa champ is the real deal, does the all american status take away from that?

All State and All American has been thrown out there, just look bach through the thread. Maybe not by you but it has been said.

If the series was implemented, it would not take long for the everybody is a winner group to start adding a second team and a third team.

I like the idea of winning every tournament to be the champ in some aspects. you would have other kids trying to spoil it and then you dont have to spend all that money on those prizes. maybe hand over any left over money to the freestyle and greco kids to help them get more kids involved in that.

Chad
FYI...
That is not my vision of this idea!
Maybe "Series Champion" or "Series Points Champion"

Also, please understand my son coming off of the Elementry School Duel Experience, but if we start seeing a trend of tournaments going to a duel format (Park Hill, Roller, Etc) maybe we could use this point system to help put together teams. Just an offer or a suggestion NOT SAYING ITS GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!

I really like the points idea but if they won EVERY TOURNAMENT maybe throw in a tee shirt stating that accomplishment???



Where as this whole idea is about promoting KANSAS WRESTLING I think it would be awesome if this got big enough to do donations to the state freestyle and greco kids or maybe New Clubs or struggling clubs or the state tournament or a scholarship fund or kids going to Sr. Nationals!
The options are endless!!

What about the kids that play baseball (or other sports) and do GR/FS trying to get the triple crown. I know of a few. Don't take anything away from these athletes that are going over and above and beyond. The award for the kids who travel all over looking for the best competition is the improvement the get throught the year and winning the state tournament. Let's not create awards for the sake of giving more kids awards.

Andrew Steele

You are on target.

1st. I take the award for sake of awards comment the wrong way everytime. I just don't see it as that! Call it a prize or a title or an award or whatever you want. The intent is to incentivize wrestlers to get out into our state and find the good/new competition more regularly. Good kids wrestling good kids makes great champions! Not all the kids in this state are the die hard beast that we want them to be. A majority of them love the recognition and awards! If they were all the beast we wanted them to be then we wouldnt need medals or tournaments for that matter! We would lock them in a padded room for 3 months and let them out to wrestle a 168 man bracket at state and call that kid the champion

2nd. If the parents are the medal mongers that you say they all are then this series idea is a no brainer and will work like a charm.

I listened to a few of you about asking the kids and I did that. Ive been seeing wrestlers from different clubs around the ball fields and I have NOT had one kid say that this is not an awesome idea. Wait... take that back!!! All one kid said was "Ya that would be kinda cool".

1st - It will be a made up Award. No matter how you look at it, you (BLT) are making up this award. As of now it does not exist, you are wanting to make it up.

2nd - Parents as medal mongers/working like a charm. Sounds like a carnival act.

3rd - Let the kids make all the decisions. They know what is best.

This is your reasoning?

so I take it that the triple crown wasnt ever made up. tell me how many kids that went to state are actually playing baseball and freestyle and greco. those numbers drop off dramatically so does that take away the achievements for those kids. why call it a triple crown if half the best kids in the state dont even do freestyle or greco. just a handful. i say lets do the points series or make freestyle and greco at a time that all kids can enjoy it and not have to take time out for other sports. I dont take time out of my wrestling to do all these other sports. Like I have said before you have to let your kid learn how to be a kid at some point in time and doing 3 sports all year long doesnt seem to give that kid enough time to learn how to be a kid. Yes I have tried not to post on this again but I guess I dont see some of your points your addressing by saying freestyle this and freestyle that. How many colleges wrestle freestyle. Do you get a college scholarship by wrestling freestyle or folkstyle. I had a coach that has been around along time tell me that my kid should wrestle folkstyle through the freestyle season and see what happens. Not saying freestyle is not good but I dont see it as important as folkstyle.

What do they wrestle in the Olympics? That should be reason enough to do Freestyle and Greco. That is what makes it important. Most college scholarships go to Freestyle wrestlers.

your right but what percentage of wrestlers actually make the olympics. now what percentage of highschool wrestlers advance on to college wrestling. All im saying is those of you that keep saying there will be no credability to the series cause its made up. well somebody made up the triple crown and if your going to knock the credability of the series which is in the middle of folkstyle season where the best wrestlers are then how can you not knock freestyle which is after the season when half the kids are done and not wrestling. I would like to try freestyle and greco but not the way its set up now. maybe i can convince my son into not playing baseball in the future and give it a whirl.

You just have to see what happens to kids that wrestle Freestyle and Greco in the summer. I'll give one example, and there are many more like him:

Bradley Little, Derby, who probably has no idea who I am, was borderline fish not too many years ago. I remember watching this red headed kid out there taking his lumps at every FS GR tourney I went to. But he kept coming back. These last few years he has emerged as one of the top tier kids in the state. If Bradley is out there reading this, I hope he doesn't take offense to the fish comment. All kids have been there at some point, I use h im as an example because he proves that it is "never too late".

The physicality, the technique, the grueling, "if there is no action we start over" facet, is paying off huge dividends for him, and many others, including my son. If you have a kid that has a problem with "roughing people up", have him wrestle FS GR, and his whole style will change. Have him "survive" a trip to Schoolboy, Cadet, or Junior duals, or Fargo, and he will feel so much better about himself, knowing that he is making himself better, whether he is winning or losing his FS GR matches.

There are several great FS GR clubs around town, so being close to one isn't an issue, at least in the Wichita area.

I agree Doug. Isn't it funny how we need to do something to improve Kansas wrestling, but the answer can't be to get involved with Freestyle and Greco. The answer must be...A Series. Why is the series the answer? Because there is no real sacrifice. The kid doesn't have to dedicate more time into the sport. They just need to go to different tournaments, tougher tournaments. Yes that will make them champions. Not wrestling in the summer that would cut into baseball and @#$%^!ball.

If you want to get better you have to Freestyle. This is Jake's first year and he loves it. He is playing baseball on a traveling team also. It can be done....it just depends on how badly you want to make it work.

We do need to keep in mind that not all kids are going to wrestle to become great at it. Some parents have their kids wrestle for the life lessons. Nothing wrong with that. But the problem comes when those parents want their kids recognized for "just wrestling". Wrestling is a great sport for your kid to participate in, but obviously it is a lot funner, like any sport, when you win. However it is whole lot LESS FUN when you lose than other sports. I want us to find ways to get more k ids to participate, which increases our chances of finding that kid, who may not have wrestled, that turns into a stud. But like Chad says, let's not create awards for kids that haven't paid their dues. In ANY sport, there are going to be the top tier kids, middle tier kids, and lower tier kids. Don't create awards that make the lower tier kids feel like middle tier kids, or awards that make m iddle tier kids feel like top tier kids. Call the awards what they are, as they are.

Yes, I'm sure it can work also, but as Scott said, the kids need time to be kids as well. In the smaller communities, sometimes the baseball team has to have you on the team every practice and game because without you they don't have enough for a team. Same with all the other "team" sports. And the problem with "it just depends on how badly you want to make it work" is (not saying you) that in a lot of cases, the parent wants it a lot more "badly" that the kid. Again, Scott said it best, the kids need time to be kids."

ok so you take a kid who may wrestle 6-8 months of folkstyle and then you take a kid who wrestles 4 months of folkstyle and 2 months of freestyle and greco. which is better for they type of wrestling they will be doing in highschool and to get a college scholarship. somebody made up the award for the triple crown didnt they. it didnt just jump out there on its own. so while you dump on this series thing and try to make freestyle and greco out to be something more than it is I really dont think it has any more credability than the series. half the kids arent doing it while the series would be during the season and with all the normal kids involved. Like I said im not knocking freestyle and greco im knocking the fact that you guys keep saying the series is just another award and has no credability. same can be said about freestyle and greco triple crowns. I hope in the future my kid decides to do it but for me I have 4 other kids to put into that equation and other sports so the way its set up now I see no way for that to happen and find time for my kid to be a kid.

Just know that I think doing FS/GR year in and year out is more important to someone wanting to be the best or go wrestle at the college level then anything else.

FYI...
We tried freestyle a few years back and did not like the club and at the time there was nothing else close to us. Then my son got the baseball bug. I would do it differently but it is what makes him happy.
I dont know what it would take to promote FS GR more in this state. But I do think a series would promote folkstyle.
And its not something I am just making up. Its something already being done SUCCESSFULLY elsewhere and I thought we could use that template and add a little KS to it and make it even better. MAYBE I AM WRONG!


I think YOU were the one that said kids dont need to wrestle the best every weekend...
If the series worked like it was intended then you would be wrestling the best of the best every weekend, you would have to dedicate more time to the sport to stay on top and ALL of that is considered sacrifice!

Scott I don't think anybody is dumping on this series thing they are just saying Kansas folksyle wrestling is fine without it but we need to grow kansas freesyle and greco wrestling. Time after time on this forum you have said how you want Kansas to be dominant on the National Scene and growing our freestyle and greco programs in this state is a big part of getting to and or staying at that level. Winning a state title in one style is a big accomplishment winning all three styles is huge and deserves to be recognized.

can we all agree to disagree on views and whys and let this go for time being. sometimes when one is in the mud its not the best thing to keep spinning the tires

WE ALL KNOW, SUMMER WRESTLING MAKES WINTER CHAMPIONS. what i find really funny here is that you are so close minded to think that, THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. there are alot of different things that go into making a champion. there isn't alot of fs here in sek, when there is it's not very organized. doug hitchcock and i have talked about opening the room on sudays, just to roll around and keep wrestling in their heads.

but it's funny how chad brings up $$$, when in the summer when most kids play baseball, it is fs and greco that take the "extra/ unplanned" $$$. yet trying to do something "in season" is ridiculous.

IT'S ALL IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPETITION. it's kinda funny how things are different with different sports, in ark city they are the top in wrestling and believe the only way, is the way they know. i used to be the same way with football, if you wanted a football state championship ANY CLASS you had to beat a sek team to do it. heck even PSU was better in the day than k-state/ ku. now i see things differently, things have shifted, football as a whole has changed. we wrestled to be in better football shape. now we wrestle to compete, to win state championships, we seek out the best and test ourselves. just like we used to in football. BUT THAT ALONE IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH ANYMORE. we played 5a (equal to 6a in ks) teams in missouri for about 2-3 games a year, before we played any ks teams. we beat ark city on the way to one of our state championships, they were the only ks team outside of the sek to come close. that simply isn't good enough anymore. things have been tough for football teams here in the sek for a few years.

my point is you have to continue to grow and look for ways to improve. there no other way. no one has ALL the answers. i'm so glad, there is alot of passion on this subject, as well as many others.

your right darren. in the sense that I want to be on top. Im not convinced that freestyle and greco is better than wrestling more folkstyle though. Like I have said before I will continue to do what I have already done. If the series happens I will do it to. If they ever decide to move freestyle and greco up a little bit I might even give that a try to. If not then I will continue to practice folkstyle the way we have been.

I think it is more important to grow partcipation in FS GR than it is to create another award for folkstyle.

Just to give an example, and not to bag on middle school duals, because that is a great tool for our kids: You go to Schoolboy duals, Cadet Duals, Junior duals, and Fargo, and you see the BEST OF THE BEST. There are more STUDS at those FS GR duals than there are at the middle school duals, which is folkstyle. The reason is that a lot of states are ALREADY doing FS GR while we are still having our state folkstyle tourney series.

It is what lifting weights is to football. FS GR makes you a better folkstyle wrestler.

Again, let's do things to get better numbers in FS GR, we do not need to do anything to increase the number of awards for folkstyle wrestling.

Now Doug those states that are doing fs and gr are they starting earlier than we are for folkstyle. If not then why are we finishing so late and not starting fs and gr earlier like they are. Are those states that are doing that beating our kids at the national level. If so then I agree lets get the kids state over and done with the week before highschool state and lets get fs and gr started and finished earlier. I dont think fs and gr make folkstyle better more so than wrestling folkstyle the entire time. I dont rule out fs and gr but it would have to change for alot of kids to get started in it.

Scott-In answer to your question wrestling Freestyle will make you a better folkstyle wrestler, than simply wrestling more folkstyle. Freestyle wrestling teaches you a much better awareness of your body and amps up your ability to wrestle at a higher level. My son went up several levels when he started wrestling freestyle. If you ask him it's the #1 reason he is good at folkstyle. It teaches a different awareness and attitude. Plus it doesn't hurt that he starts off almost every match ahead 2-0 in folkstyle because freestyle has made him very tough on his feet. The final thing freestyle teaches to folkstyle kids is creativity. Watch any good freestyler scramble or get out of a tough situation. It's much different and very effective.

JMO

thanks badbo I will keep that in mind when they move the season up a month or so. Im glad there are so many people getting involved in this topic and it has been a good one and views from lots of different angles. It would be interesting to see if the state voted on how many kids would actually do fs and gr if the moved the season up and made room for it and not have to go an extra month. I know my son would be there and I can think of an entire club that would be there. Just a little hint.

fs & gr is fun if people would just try it. My sons play baseball & wrestle fs & greco for the last 5 years. you dont have to go to every tournament just hit a few & state. But the important thing is practice fs & gr. It gives the kids new things to practice. It helps aviod burnout by practicing different techniques, most can be used in folkstyle. It keeps kid on the mat longer. To say that fr & gr does not help a wrestler in folkstyle is just wrong. Again this is just a personal opinion, but seeing is beliveing. I see many fr & gr wrestlers during the season & they are very successful in folkstyle. Leave the ks season the way it is we dont need to be like oklahoma. I agree that more awards is not going to help.

Shortening Folkstyle season has been talked about for years, but it never happens.

Don't take offense to this, but it almost sounds like you are talking yourself happy about the path you are taking your kid down. I've done the same thing, only to figure out later I should have listened to advice that I ignored. I am not saying you are wrong about letting him play baseball/ letting him be a kid. The relaxed atmosphere at FS GR practice will not burn him out. The relaxed atmosphere at the tourneys will not burn him out. You wrestle what you weigh, so for most kids, the weight management is taken out of it. The stakes increase at state, Southern Plains, but most certainly at the duals and Fargo, which your son is a long ways away from. I AM saying you are wrong about FS GR not helping folkstyle. And I understand why you might feel that way, because you haven't seen what it has done to kids that you have followed for years like myself and many others have. I can also point to MANY HS kids that, going into HS, you would have sworn were locks to win a state title, or multiple state titles, that may have gotten complacent, and didn't do FS GR, and left their senior years without that state title that looked so achievable when they entered HS.

I was stating that those for the serires don't want to put in more time (summer wrstling). The series people just think going to tougher tournamnents is the answer. I do not think the best should wrestle each other every weekend. It is too much for these kids.

I for one do not think that our folkstyle season needs to be moved or shortened. I thimk that fs/gr should go longer than it does. This is my kids first year in it and he loves it.
If we are talking about letting kid be kids than why aer we not thinking about the kids that only wrestle and love it. We want to gripe and complain about length of season and my kids burning out, shorten the season move freestyle. It is all crap. If your kid wants to play baseball more than freestyle so be it, maybe he just doesn't love it as much as dad, but to talk about changing the entire setup to please those few that enjoy other sports more is crap.
My son is a wrestler by choice and in freestyle by choice, he starts in october by choice and wrestles almost every weekend by choice. I love the sport but I love HIM MORE. I do not push him into anything, it is his decision. Stop trying to take away and shorten what so many kids choose to do for the few that "burn out' just my opinion Mike Pirl

You know Chad...
I might be willing to wave the white flag on this series thing if you can address a few of my concerns and give me a brief preview of some of the things you plan to do next year to improve the sport (especially in D2). We talk about making KS wrestling better but these are real issues that make me shake my head every year. I’m not calling you out, I’m asking you because I know you will shoot me straight, you took your position to make an impact and we are friends.

1. I feel the tournament schedule is so jammed packed that a lot of the tournaments competition is diluted. How do we address this? CoOping smaller clubs? More novice events on Sundays? Trying not to have clubs hold 2 or 3 tournaments in the same season? Have a district tournament Coordinator?

2. I think someone should try to get Park City and Hays on different weekends. This would help people travel to other districts and see the best the whole state has to offer. Is there anyone (including yourself) willing to try to approach these people and see if this is do able?

3. There are issues in some of the weight classes. The bottom weights of 8U is filled with 6U kids but every year we are turning away good wrestlers that can’t wrestle their own age and weight class because they are too big. There are more true 8U kids that could fill a 140 pound Heavy Weight bracket then true 8U kids at 40/43/46 pounds.

4. How do we improve FS/GR numbers? I got to say that I dont think we could shorten the folkstyleseason any more then it already is. If we did it would add 2 or 3 more tournaments to every week of an already over crowded schedule!

Number 1 and 2 are my biggest concerns and motivation for pushing a series. Number 3 will always be my biggest pet peeve and number 4 is an issue that I think this thread has done a great job of shedding some light on to! If someone could give some ideas as to how to resolve these then maybe we could put this series idea on hold. If not, then either you are saying these are not real concerns OR maybe you would have to step back and try to support a series because doing something is better than doing NOTHING!!!

In District 2 it is not as jam packed as you might think. Starting Dec. 12th, District 2 has one tournament a week except for the following dates: Dec 26 (0), Jan 23 (2), Feb 6 (2), and Feb 20 (2). Two of those weekends the tournaments are about 2 hours apart. I'm not really sure there is a problem here.

There is not much one person can do here. I agree it would be great to get these two great tournaments on different weekends. I would suggest having everyone that wants to see this happen call both Tournament Directors and ask them to work together. I will be more than happy to call, but 100 calls would do more to help the cause.

Someone who has a personal interest needs to care enough to submit a proposal to the state. For three years this has been talked about on the forum, but not once has a proposal been submitted. Sometimes people need to take the bull by the horns and do something for themselves.

I think that it would be great to have Park City and Hays on different dates but do see a big problem. Don't know about Park City, never been there, but Hays cannot handle many more people. The coliseum is huge but it is still nearly full on the upper level. They can't put the seats out in the lower level without losing about 6 mats. (3 full mats divided in half). Can't imaging Park City is any bigger. Unless they move some of the age groups to the back gyms in the Coliseum they could never hold the crowd they would get. JMO

dont dis-agree with you mike but I think you have it the other way around. there are more kids that like to play other sports and a handful of kids like yours. just look at the numbers from the amount of kids that wrestle throughout the season and are done after state and not wrestling fs or gr. that number drops down a bunch so you may choose to wrestle but the majority of kids dont because they choose to do other sports. majority rules majority of the time.

Bockman You are right The number of kids doing GR/FS are way down compared to the number doing Folkstyle. Mike is also right the kids that do GR/FS and another sport are way ahead of the kids that stop wrestling after States. I have a kid who has only wrestled 3 and 1/2 seasons and been a state qualifier for the past two seasons. and He owes alot of his success to doing 2 years of GR/FS. He also plays baseball during the GR/FS season. We only hit tournament every other weekend or so and then states and Southern plains. I think if we really wanted to improve Kansas wrestling we need to push GR/FS and get more kids wrestling those styles. Plus the laid back enviroment in GR/FS practice and tournaments is a good relief after Folkstyle and most of the kids really do it to have fun and enjoy the mat time. I know as a coach and a dad the GR/FS season is alot of fun without the stresses that are seen in Folkstyle (overcrowded gyms, long drawn out tournaments, parents crowded around the matside so you can't see and so on).

Andrew Steele

I agree with you guys but in my case I have 5 kids total. They all play several different sports throughout the year. I have to make time for those other kids at the same time and therefore dont have the time to do fs and gr the way its set up now. I know im not the only one in this situation cause there are alot of catholics out there with large families. I would love to have the time to be able to fit it in but it wont be fair to the other kids on his baseball team to miss practice for that to go to fs and gr practice. thats just my situation. I am all for those who can find time for it. most of those that do it dont have the same situation as i do. Im happy for them and wish them the best of luck. My son was a state champion and he doesnt do fs and gr. He also played basketball in the middle of wrestling season and missed quite a few wrestling practices. The sky is the limit for my son and its up to him to decide when he will do fs and gr. But for now he asks me to take him fishing, dad lets go camping, dad lets go ride go-carts. thats whats important to me and he is having fun being a kid and enjoying his time off from wrestling. Once again that is just my situation and not everyones.

Very well said Scott. My son was 2nd at State, lost to Scott's son in finals and he is the same way.....let's go fishing!!!! So, until he asks to do FS/GR we prob. won't. But as soon as he decides to do it, we will find practices and go. Agree that it can only help him but I WILL NOT push him into it. He feels that wrestling season is long enough and was ready to start fishing bout 4 hours after we left the Expo-Center. Plus he has 8 other kids counting on him for baseball, or there is not enough for a team. That's just the way it is in many small communities. You play the sport in season.

I also look at it like this. What if my son chooses not to do wrestling at all. At least he has other sports to fall back on and enjoy. Those kids that only wrestle what do they fall back on if they choose not to wrestle. You might say we will deal with that if that ever comes. For me its already in place with the other sports. Im sure not everyone will agree with me on this but thats ok with me and Im ok with it. someone said i was smiling and proud of the path we have chosen for my son. well your right i am very proud of all 5 kids and what they have chosen to do not what I have chosen for them. by the way im very proud of them with their manners and behavior and honor rolls at school. I guess those things are the bling.

I think a split session like Wichita Classic would ease the crowding problems. Even Tulsa, Reno, etc. do the split sessions now

I do understand the with large families and other sports and fishing, camping and so on. Of my two boys only one does GR/FS and he would rather do GR/FS than Folkstyle. He does a very nice job of working with the other 9 players on his baseball team. Wife and I had him work out a plan so he would not hurt his baseball team by wrestling. The small town comments are justified but alot of us in Kansas have the same problems with having the enough kids or driving to play sports weather its wrestling, baseball football or what ever. Right now by two boys don't even play for the same small town in baseball (one plays in our town and the other plays in a town 25 miles away). To tie this back into wrestling and the series; when I can drive two hours and find tough competition (The Witchita area, Salina, Hays I don't see the need to create a seris where I have to drive further to wrestle in series tournaments or tell my wrestler no you can't compete in the series. How does do this help Kansas wrestling? Yes I know my son is not a state placer in Folkstyle but is a past state champion and state placer in GR/FS (the two styles he prefers) does that mean he should not be included? and how would creating a series help make him better in Folkstyle?

I just have one question, who called the Truce? I have been following this thread since its inception.

I haven't been participating much because we have been a little busy (High School track for the oldest, Jr High track and club soccer for my second oldest not to mention competing as an alternate at the MS Dual Nationals, youth soccer and a music concert for my 6 year old, and chasing the 3 year old wherever he goes). Just finished 5 1/2 months of wrestling Jr High and Kids (78 matches). Oh, and I forgot, my job driving an hour each direction and my wife running her daycare, taking kids to school, picking up from track practice, taking to soccer practice (twice a week in the same day after school), going to the track meets if we can fit them in, and so on, and so on. This weekend, baseball try outs for the second son. T-ball soon to follow for the third son. Still chasing the 3 year old wherever he goes. Almost forgot, the oldest two getting their homework done so they can continue to pull good grades. Almost forgot, oldest son competing in High School soccer and marching band in the fall/winter season.

Would my son be a better wrestler if he did Greco and Freestyle during the summer? I know that he would. Do we have time for him to do it? I don't think so. Will he be a solid High School wrestler? I think he will compete very well. Anyone who knows anything about wrestling knows that Greco and Freestyle would make a wrestler better. The reason they have not grown, at least in my opinion, is because families are stretched to the limit already. Having a kid wrestle year around is also a grind, if you have that option. For us, and I am sure many others, that is why we don't compete in the Greco and Freestyle season. I love wrestling, I wish my son could be the best, but I realize that our family has commitments to all four of our boys, and we need to be involved with all of them as much as we can.

If this thread sounds like it goes on and on, non-stop, chaotic, rambling, rumbling and bumbling, well that is what our lives feel like 24/7, 365.

Beeson and BLT. look here. I am personally involved in the weight classes that are not right. and another thing, Robert King choosed freestyle/greco for a reason.He is tough and wants another chance to go to state next year. Beeson, we picked you for district 2 for a reason. we thought you represent well and get things done. pm me and we will talk.thanks.Charlie King/ Wi chita Aztecas

i noticed that #4 was not answered. why? why do we keep shortening the fs/gr season? if nobody in the organization wants it, why not let fs/gr go on their own? we only have 4-5 weeks this year and not one tourny in the area. we will be traveling to dist. 1 and dist. 4 for tournys. I know that district 2 is better than that. come on, throw the kids that want to wrestle in the summer a bone and give them a little support.

ReDPloyd - Yes we are all busy. I only have two kids but right now they are active in 4 different sports, The wife and I both work (I only drive 45 minutes one way) then there is city council, school board meeting, city improvement commity meetings and qualility family time. As a parents the wife and I find a way if our kids want it and it is possible. We could compare everyone's schedule but let talk about the orginal Post... How does having a series help Kansas wrestling when we have an award for those that wrestle all three styles. We don't need to create any more awards for kids who wrestle Folkstyle and can travel all over the state during folkstyle. We already reward those wrestlers who seek out the best competition to improve them selves with a State Championship series at the end of the season. Or does your life slow down enough during the winter so you can drive 6-8 hours in the winter to wresle in every corner of Kansas? Mine doesn't.

My observation… throughout this thread, the intention has been to help Kansas wrestling become stronger and more competitive. I am indifferent to a series and simply see it as an honest attempt to do something for kids. It will not influence our decision on where to go on the weekends, but it may others. I guess I see it as no harm, no foul, JMO.

Throughout this thread, it’s been expressed over and over that the way to strengthen Kansas wrestling is not through a series, but rather the increased participation in FS/Greco. It seems that whether a family can make it work or not, the timing of the season is tough for many. We competed in several tournaments and state last year, and are trying to fit practices in this year. So yes, I am biased and it is a struggle for us this time of the year. I'm not complaining as we chose to make it work last year and are simply choosing to make an attempt this year. Shortening the season by a month, as odd it may seem actually hurt us, but it’s not about us, or any other individual family, it’s about strengthening the participation in these styles.

I guess, my question, if we agree that it will help Kansas kids, how do we strengthen FS/Greco? We know one obstacle is when the season occurs, are there others? Are there things that can be done to sustain the current participation, while bringing in some of the others?

Not sure of the etiquette, so if I need to move this to another thread, please let me know.

Michael Doud

The one thing that I see stressed over and over is that the State Series is enough and we don't need a KS Series. To me this gives the state series way too much credit. Anytime people are being excluded from participation from such an event then it is not entirely legitimate in my opinion. Granted nothing is perfect and people are doing the best they can, but still some things are glaringly obvious here. Go to a couple of National Tournaments and you start to grow up a little bit. KS has some great wrestling going on but if you think the state series is tough then you are mistaken and misguided.

Aside from that there is money or the lack of it. I would much rather travel and spend money on an event where I know I am going wrestle in my own age group and in my own weight class as to travel somewhere and just hope that someone shows up and find out 20 min before the tournament starts if I'm going to be bumped up an age/weight group or not. Not all of us have deep pockets and can take a chance like that every weekend. This is why I think the series would be beneficial. It is more likely to draw people from different areas of the state or out of state who might not otherwise get a chance to wrestle thereby creating more matches that would not be available otherwise. Thus saving people time and money in an otherwise expensive sport. This is the reality of a series. You can have as many club meets as you want and crowd up the weekends with 7 tournaments all across the state, but the kids who want to wrestle against the tough kids and have some matches will be at the Series Tournaments where the real action will be if they want to get better.

I can see why some of the club tournament directors would be shy of wanting a series to happen. They'd have to admit that their tournament wasn't the best one to be at that weekend. Big pill to swallow I guess. That is why everyone should be making strides to ensure that when the Series becomes a reality that they get their house in order and make it happen for their club. Otherwise, they will be losing out on a great wrestling day.

FS/Greco, we would love to do it and would prob be successful at it as well. We aren't doing anything right now sport wise till AAU track starts up. Problem is that we have to travel an hour one way to practice with anyone and we really can't afford that. So unless someone wants to sponsor him or find a different way to get in some practices. We are just plain stuck. I really don't think we are all that different from most people out there. There is a will but the way is either too difficult or unrealistic for the common man or for those who live outside of the big cities. That is why I advocated running the season concurrently with Folkstyle in some way. That way you'd get the best of both worlds and still get it done in a timely fashion using the facilities that are already being utilized.

Thanks, Troy

O.k. I've read all the posts on this and all are great points. My boys play ball; so to say they won't advance in folkstyle if they don't do freestyle is wrong. They never have done freestyle and still have great sucess. Kids should be kids no matter what sport. Take a look at yourselves who really wants this, the kid or the dad. If your kid can multi_ task then more power to him. Lots of running on the parents part. But do not say freestyle makes a great wrestler. Hard work and determination make a great wrestler. Imo.

Hey Folks
Sorry I took a little break from the thread. As I stated I would be willing to raise the white flag if you could address what your plans were on some of the issues.
Here is what I heard...

One Not really a problem in D2 and if the good kids want to come to us we will let them sooo.
Two Hey good idea. I will make a phone call. You should too.
Three Not my problem. I have heard about this for a few years and people talked to me about it this year and I agree that if it effects YOU then maybe YOU should do something.
Four Chirp Chirp Chirp that's the crickets I'm hearing.

All four of these are valid issues inside if D2 and all of KS. If you disagree then say so.
You were elected to Rep D2 and the state on issues weather they directly effect YOU or not.
I hope someone steps up and does something.
If it isn't a series that will resolve this then fine. But if you are going to shoot down my idea then I would hope you have one of your own.
I'm going to continue to move fwd with this series idea. Maybe it will happen or maybe not but at least I can try to do something.

I don't think anyone said that you can't be a successful folkstyle wrestler without wrestling freestyle. There are many kids who have won multiple state titles in folkstyle and never wrestled freestyle but wrestling freestyle will help you improve in folkstyle and that is all anybody on here has said.

So in essence, you are saying 'do something, even if it's wrong'?

How can you say its wrong if no one has tried it.
The biggest wrong is no one doing anything.
I would of rather tried and failed then not to of tried at all.
And what's even worst is those people who just sit back and do NOTHING and then talk down to people who actually tired.
To me that's a COWARD.

Lance Tracy

Well first you would have to be naive enough to think, that there aren't people working everyday to make Kansas wrestling better. Just because you do not see or know it, does not mean it isn't going on! Even if we assume, as you do, that little to nothing is being done currently to better Kansas wrestling, does that mean we have to accept any hair-brained idea that comes along?

i'm not sure if it's wrong or not, a few think it would be wrong, a few more think it's the right thing to do. i guess the point is if it's not for you, don't do it (fs/gr included).

i think the biggest problem i have seen is this.

people who are against the series have these things to offer as reasons why:
just another award
$$$$
kill the small tourneys
fs/gr is a better way to build

people for have offered these solutions:
no award/points/ small/nop medal
plan / communicate/ save the small guy
build competition
can't solve $$$ issue

people who are for fs/gr:
it's proven- do it
it will build ks wrestling
can't do anything about $$$

people with problems about fs/gr:
$$$$
lack of opportunity (practices/coaches)
overlaps into other seasons
is it proven?
the rewards are for those with time and $$$

fs/gr supporters solutions:
???????

we can't change the $$$. but how do we grow fs/gr acrossed the state? how do we grow competition?

BLT and others have tried to address every concern with a solution. yet i haven't seen many solutions to the problems with fs/gr other than just deal with it. then when i or blt say have a series, just deal with it. trowbridge calls me a coward, sportsfan calls the idea hair brained. wow.

come on, grow up. we are all passionate about this sports, tha't obvious. we all know that people work for this year 'round, and appreciate the job they do (even if the negativity comes out more). we have to focus on the issues and concerns and search for ways to improve.

personally i think fs/gr is great for wresters, to make them better. but question it's availability, to ALL OF KS KIDS. the time and money to travel is tough to find. the way it stands needs improvement, to show it's POTENTIAL to grow ks wrestling.

i think the series would be great, to grow competition amongst ks kids. but question the availability, to ALL OF KS KIDS. the time and money to travel is tough to find. the way it stands needs improvement, to show it's POTENTIAL to grow ks wrestling.

i see both sides, they are almost identical. now let's take the next step and move forward.

Sportsfan
I understand people are involved in this sport year round and are working to make it better.
But the four issues I asked are important ones and like Chad even said the weight class one gets swept by every year.
Does the weight class issue effect ME or MY CHILD. NO but it has effected wrestlers that I coach and other good wrestlers around the state. I think it is a valid issue and I try to support it getting resolved.
The series idea has already been proven to work. It has created some of the biggest or TOUGHEST tournaments that OK has to offer. Yes I know the WOW series are the kings of OK but you look in JOC and Mustang and those are some good tournaments in its self.

I could just throw my hands in the air and walk away from this but I feel like it is our duty to try to give back to the sport that has given so much to us.

If the series idea happens it is one that is open to participation or not. Its not something that will be forced down your throat. If it works then eventually you will feel compelled to go cause that's where all the best competition will be but it will be you choice not to.

Here in the weeks to come there will be another thread with the details of the series idea. That thread will be looking for feedback as well. I really think that if we work together we can make a series that can benefit the whole state.

That is a subject for another thread but I can tell you, the issue will never be resolved in a manner which will suit you! Because I can't see our organization going back to unlimited heavyweight groups. We've been there and done that. Anyone that was truely interested in the "competition", would have to feel the same.


Yeah, I'm sure Oklahoma has some good little tournaments. Then again, so does Kansas. The thing Kansas has more of is, the smaller tournaments. Those exact same tournaments the series will put out of business if it was established. Now we can argue about this back and forth forever but that is the opinion of myself and others. You guys can glorify Oklahoma and all it does in wrestling but I believe our state is superior, particularly at the youth level.


Just because your first idea gets shot down doesn't mean you have to quit giving back!


Of course nobody would be forced, and it hasn't been suggested that they would be forced. Instead it will happen by natural progression and totally unintended, but it will happen none the less. If a club is not able to host a tournament it has greatly reduced it's sustainability. A club tournament, besides raising needed funds, serves as the glue in many cases, that hold these groups together.
You can go ahead and turn wrestling into the "traveling" team mentalilty that so many other youth sports must endure, and it will only lead to our demise. We can make this a sport of the parent who has the money to travel all over the midwest or maybe the U.S. but you will only be reducing opportunities for kids. If the clubs fold, the supply of kids folds which creates even more need to travel. We need the mom and pop wrestling club in Podunk Kansas as much or more than we need any regional, national or "series".
Has the "super-sizing" of anything, ever been good for us the consumers? I say leave our tournaments alone, don't try to "super-size" them.

Okay here it is, the key to "fixing" Kansas wrestling. We give every kid entered at every tournament a trophy with no placing on them so everyone is equal and everyone wants to keep wrestling.
The series idea is not a good idea: Reasons : False sense of accomplishment : Another award for little or no effort:gives wrestlers false sense of superiority

If you want to make Kansas wrestling better: tournament directors make only 1 bracket per age and weight: Reduce awards to top 3 only for weekend tournaments:
If you want to copy another state then make it the most dominant state like pa, no novicedivision, no b,c,d brackets, and no awards for participation
just my opinion mike pirl

Please explain how b brackets & novice tournaments hurt kansas wrestling?? I know other people feel the same way but I just dont get it. Both my boys have placed at tulsa so they are A-AA-AAA or whatever. I dont want my boys wrestling novice wrestlers. Its a waste of mat time in a tournament. I do agree with all the other points you make. Also I agree with all the points that sport0 made in his last post.

I also dont think that bracketing a novice wrestler in a bracket full of experienced & skilled wrestlers is good for the novice wrestler or kansas wrestling. I do belive that at open tournaments it will & can happen. If it can be easily avoided why not?? dont get me wrong here if you enter a open tourny expect to wrestle a open class wrestler. but if the novice kids can be seperated without jacking up the bracket i dont see the down side.

ok, I should have been a little bit clearer, Open tourneys should not have more than one bracket, have all the novice tourneys you want to, I believe that you have got to wrestle better kids to get better and staying in novice or the "b" bracket is not gonna get you any better.
Thank you Luellen for pointing out that oversite on my part "sincerely" Mike Pirl

1. I DO NOT want to see an unlimited heavy weight class!
There is a much needed readjustment of the heavier weights. We are leaving good KS kids at home every weekend because they are too big. A few of them are some of the best in the country in the national tournaments. We can pool the kids at the heavier weights. If there are enough kids in the allowed weight differential to fill a state bracket more than half way then I say let them wrestle.



2. I’m not glorifying Oklahoma at all! They have something that works and we can copy and make better! Plus, I have already proven in this thread that KS has too many tournaments and it is diluting the competition week in and week out! We need to have some clubs not do multiple tournaments! We need some of the smaller ones try to Co-op! We need some to switch from a small open to a Sunday novice!



3. All you do is shoot down ideas! How do you consider that giving back? You have a lot of wrestling knowledge but until you post your name and stop being negatives ALL THE TIME... You have no credibility!



4. All you are saying here is that the series idea will work and it will drive all the best competition to its tournaments every week. I’m saying we won’t have a series tournament every week to leave room for the smaller guy. We are not talking about adding tournaments. We are talking about taking existing tournaments and using them as a part of the series. If they continue to grow then they can Co-op with smaller clubs and become 2 day events! This is what one of the Sprawl organizers told me they plan to do this year! They will let smaller clubs come in and use them as a fundraiser in return for their support and man power!
And don’t start yelling about the cost of 2 day events! Clubs do 2 or 3 of these in OK each year. Maybe they can skip one and support KS wrestling. Maybe all those OK kids will start coming here instead!

I promise this award will be earned!



This is what we are talking about! Series tournaments will only have one bracket per weight class! If a novice kid wants to jump in here then all the power to him but he needs to know what he's in for! Awards for top four! Points for the top six!
The only participation award is the awesome wrestling competition that you see every week!

What is your ideas on what needs to be done?

I see that 8U goes to 125lbs with 13 wrestlers in the bracket. I guess they could add a 140or50 I think the bracket would be half full at best.

10U goes to 170 with 8 in the bracket. I dont see what can be done here. If they add a heavier weight I will assume that the bracket will be a 2-5 man RR at best.

12U goes to 240 its a three man RR. If they add a heavier weight I will assume the bracket will be empty or just handing a award & state championship to a kid that did not win a match.

14U goes to 265 its a 4 man RR. Adding a heavier division here wont do any thing positive for Kansas wrestling either.

It seems to me that Kansas is trying it best to get heavyweights involved in the state tourny.

8U and 10U are where I see the biggest needs. Some of those kids had to cut to make that weight and we did leave some kids behind.
Also if you look at the numbers of the TRUE 8Us in the lower weights you will see that those numbers are way lower then the heavy weights. Its just that they have 6U kids to fill those brackets.

Luellen
Why not pool bracket these heavy weights like you guys do your tournament in Rossville.
If there are not more then NINE kids signed up in the subs combined then we refund their money due to lack of competition.

I think that expanding the weight ranges could be helpful. What are your suggestions on that. Remember you have to stay in ks weight difference guidlines.

Been away for a few days, so haven't finished reading the thread to see if anyone else said this: USJOC wasn't always a series tourney was it? The series is not waht makes Mustang a decent tourney, the location is. Central OK. Ted Anderson tourney has been around a long time,but the series didn't make it great, its location and timing, pretty early in the year for KS gets quite a few KS kids.

And by the way, I believe, way back early on in this thread, it was hijacked. I think back to that post by some mom that said "great idea, and let's call the winner an All American".

I reacted to it as did many others. If we focus on BLT's attempt to get KS' best kids together more often, we might like the idea a little more. If I were to support it, it still would have to be just a small 3 tourney series, so the little tourneys didn't get swallowed up. Again, I have had many of our kids win that OK series, but more often than not, if you go down and win 3 or 4 tourneys, you don't have to go anymore, you have the points wrapped up.

Yes we could look to expand and add more weight classes but take those top two weights and make pools of kids that fit inside those difference guidelines.
For example instead of having a 190 class at 10U you could have a class that runs from 182 to 202 if you pooled those weights. And with the new trackwrestling profiles its a little easier to get an idea as to about what kids are weighing so If I was a 201 pound kid and I could see that I might want to lose about 6 pounds coming close to around state time to make sure is was within the limits of all the other profiles I've seen that are close to my weight.
Again these are just ideas. We could also look to expand a few weight classes but I think this would be a more cost effective way of doing it.
JMO
I don't claim to have all the RIGHT answers but I do ask good questions and always try to offer some sort of solution.

If we are, that is because they refuse to wrestle up in age, which makes me have no sympathy for their plight.


You are everytime you insist there is something lacking in Kansas and put the Oklahoma series up as proof. The fact is, none of us really know just how effective that series is. Is it a money maker for all the clubs? Did it, or is it still, killing other tournaments not associated with it? I don't know and really don't care because that is Oklahoma and this is Kansas. The grass is always greener!


Well, the bad ones anyway.



So, if I go along with you on this series I will suddenly be less negative? Let me think about that and get back to you.


YES! I have been saying from the start that A series will take kids away from other tournaments. The problem is never how many kids this "all star" tournament or that takes away, it's the one's that should be wrestling elsewhere that go along with the flow because they heard some fool on a message board say "it's totally about the competition".
I come from the school that it's more about the numbers and participation and having fun. I believe the cream will always rise to the top regardless.


Now THAT'S what I've been talking about, and for a long time! I say those kids who REALLY need the competition, to go do Tulsa Nationals and USJOC and forget the rest! When you start supporting what's already here, then you get back to me about making Kansas wrestling better.
By the way, I've thought about being less negative and I just can't do it. Your idea about a series still sucks. But that still does not mean your next one can't be a homerun.

Maybe all those OK kids will start coming here instead! [/quote]
No, no they won't. Not in any numbers, as others have told you already.

Okay here is another concern that I have with the series. There are 76 weight classes from 6under to 12under. 76 awards times 20 dollars each is 1,520 dollars that is just for first, say 15 dollars for second 1,140 dollars, say 10 for third and fourth thats 1,520 dollars. total on awards for top 4 in series 4,180 dollars. If you only have four tournaments in the series 1 in each district and charge 1 dollar more per entry, you will not make enough money to buy the awards. Average attendance 900 x 4 3600. This is going to end up a nightmare, if you charge more you are going to get the "what are they doing with all the money" if you dont charge enough your broke. just something to think about

Another thing would be if your gonna do it you need to advertise advertise advertise. I honestly think the problem with Sprawl Nationals was lack of advertising and promotion!!! If you want to draw other states and competition you have got to get it out there on websites ,flyers whatever to promote it. We didn't hear about sprawl until the season started.so i'm just saying promote it get it out there as much as possible

Mike Pirl,

I agree promotion is the key to a successful tournament of National caliber. They did promote it fairly early as we were talking about it before the season started.

Do you run a tournament are these the numbers you use to buy awards with? If so then power to you. Most tournaments in OK just give out awards that they can afford they are not dictated to award anything special just because they host a series tournament. Before you start going nuts on stuff you don't know anything about you should probably try to research it first that way you don't put out info that is incorrect.

Read about it here: http://okseries.com/cgi/seriesindex.cgi

Oh, and Sportsfan02 still can't post his name and most of what he says is out in left field in relation to what is really going on. Just another thing that OK does better, they require everyone to sign up for the message boards so that there is no anon posters.

Thanks, Troy Fowler

Mike
There is only series Champion.
No second third forth.
We might throw in an extra tee shirt if he sweeps the series.
So we could spend thirty or forty dollars per award and donate the rest to freestyle or a club in need in return for man power help or mat usage.
The idea is to not pull a profit but promote and give back to the sport.
Good Looking Out Though

Troy Fowler,
Before you run your mouth about which you know nothing. I wasn't talking about tournament awards smart guy. I was talking about series awards smart guy. and the peopele who i was referring it to got it smart guy.
As for the sprawls deal you needed to be promoting in April to get interest for November A national tournament is not something that you hear about on monday and travel to on Friday.

This is the problem in Kansas People like you that know all and are unwilling to let people in or hear what they have to say.

Mike Pirl

Sounds like you will fit in well with the okies.
I do wish kansas had the same rule but I dont think I will turn against kansas wrestling because of it.

Luellen,

Being that we've been more or less forced to wrestle down that way for the last few years. I might just be a little inclined to agree with that sentiment. Would rather wrestle closer to home but the KS rules push us away. Who's fault it that??

OK, ain't perfect either but they do offer us a level field and more competition. Frankly, we were told to wrestle in OK a few years back right here on this message board by several people whom I felt had a better outlook on the sport than I did. So guess what we actually followed that advice and it has paid off big time. So we didn't turn against KS wrestling on anything, we did what we were told.

Mike Pirl,

At this point there isn't any steadfast rule on what would or could be done with awards one way or the other. Might just be a nifty certificate, who really knows. That would placate the "Bling" haters, I guess. Sponsorship could play a role in that. So throwing out figures at this point is not really doing anything but trying to scare people off the idea in my opinion. I viewed your post as being extremely antagonistic so I am sure others saw it that way as well. You may have some legitimate concern in that regard, so I apologize if I am wrong.

I do think OK has a good model for a series but feel we should not copy 100%. We should make an effort to develop our own goals and criteria for what we think is beneficial to the development of the sport in this state when the series is being implemented. That will be decided by others and not by me. If we don't like it we will just wrestle in OK as we've been doing.

I agree w/ Lance that this shouldn't be about the money. At best it should break even and or could be a fund raiser for something else. National Teams, Middle School Duals, Freestlye/Greco. Who, how, when and why hasn't been decided, so it is all sorta wait and see at this point.

Now on the Sprawls, they have already begun the process of promotion as they have already announced their change of dates this April, so I guess that's really a dead issue. I am not affiliated with them at all, so where they go from here is on them. I truthfully hope that they will get this event to a level that it will rival the WOW series, as that would be a benefit to KS wrestling. Thanks, Troy

What is the rule that causes you to wrestle in Oklahoma? I know that at our tournament I try to bracket the hvy weights for max # of matches. most years i will have to call the clubs the hvy weight wrestler is in & give them thier choices.

example-- do you want to wrestle up in age or do you want a 2 man round robin?

example-- do you want to give up weight or wrestle a two man rr?

When your 10U and weigh in close to 200lbs in KS you are forced to wrestle up an age group in all but a few tournaments. The 25lb spread rules and weight limitations applies here and doesn't elsewhere. We had two tournaments in KS this year the rest were out of state(OK & NV). We can go to OK wrestle in our own age group in our own weight class with 7 plus boys in a bracket. Can't say all tournaments in OK are loaded with HWT's that way, but since they show who's going ahead of time in their series sign up system, we can choose to go where we get the most matches. Why so many HWTs in OK? They top out at #285 not #170 like KS and they encourage the bigger kids to wrestle and make a place for them not like KS. There were several boys that were even bigger than Nate to wrestle down there. So instead of 5 kids spread out across the state like in KS they have 15-20. Also, we live 15 min from OK border so the math is simple.

You have to understand the we've been dealing with this since he was a 6U, we did wrestle up for a few years in KS and learned it just wasn't doing anything for him except getting him beat half the time which is what you would expect if you have to wrestle up an age group against kids who were sometimes 3 years older. Maturity is a lot harder to beat than skill in my opinion especially with the younger kids. Learning to lose has already been taught, so we decided to take the advice given here and wrestle elsewhere. The other side of that was competition in KS, there just wasn't a whole lot of kids even wrestling up an age group to wrestle due to the rules, same kids over and over. Why because if your a big kid then you've probably moved on to another sport because the rules work against you in KS and you get left out or are forced to wrestle up. Also, there seems to be a mentality that if you can't go to the State Series in KS then you get treated like a leper. My feelings are that when he gets into HS he will have to wrestle older boys and I am cool with that, but then again so will others in his age group. Then it will be a level playing field for all of them.

We've had a good season this year:
20-0 record all pins. Most were State Champs i.e.. OK, WY, OR, MT, KS, etc... Many hadn't lost a match all season till Nate wrestled them let alone get pinned. Some were even State & previous National Freestyle & Greco Champs as well.

2010 USJOC Champion and Outstanding Wrestler Div#3
2010 Tulsa Nationals Champion
2010 Reno Worlds Champion and Outstanding Wrestler Div#3
He is going to be named to the Worlds All-star team and the list goes on.

So I ask where did we go wrong here? We took him to some of the toughest competitions in his age group that the country has to offer at great expense to us and friends just so he could wrestle the best there was to offer. We had a very limited budget this year for wrestling so I feel we did about as good as you could get under the circumstances. Would have loved to do more National Competitions this year but there was just wasn't the money or the support to do that. We did wrestle in a few tournaments in KS and we were very excited and grateful to be able to do that. But on the whole, it just didn't make sense to wrestle up an age group at home when we did have better options abroad. We move up to 12U this next season and hopefully he will get at least one year in KS before he is over #240lbs, depends on his growth. I am guessing he will be 6' tall and about 220lbs by his 12th birthday in Dec. Time will tell.

That answers my question. OK has more 10U hvys in your sons age. It seems to me that you should wrestle up in age any way. He won tulsa- reno- joc. I cant belive that there is 10U in OK or kansas that can give him a decent match.

Hey Hossus would you like to move to Wichita. We could use a football player. lol. now that should get the recruitment arguement started. All I can say is everyone has an idea what they want. Now its up to those people to do what they want. Its too bad when someone steps up to try and make a difference you have others that want to shoot it down without even giving it a chance because it wasnt something they thought of. I think we all want the same thing and that is our kids to be the best they can but dont think everyone wants to put in the effort to make it happen. yes fs and gr would be good but not every kid can wrestle that due to other sports. those of you that do fit it in awesome for you and i bet 4 out of 5 of them only have 1 or 2 kids. Yes Steele you have however many and you might be the exception. Keep up the good work Lance and hope you guys make this happen and make it successful that way whoever said it wont work can pat you on the back and say they were wrong. only way it wont work is if everyone keeps talking down on it.

When we are talking about fitting FS and GR in, we have to take advantage of one another's willingness to give a ride to your kid, or vice versa. Not just FS GR either. Lots of carpooling and hotel room sharing goes on with my kids (7 of them by the way) and their sports.

My next statement is in no way trying to stir the pot, but you made a statement about your kid doing well without FS GR. You are right, and most kids that age (less than 10 yrs old)are able to. What you'll realize, as they get older, is that FS GR is very important. Remember, noone but you and your kid is gonna remember who won the 2009 10u whatever weight class at Ks Kids State. But they'll remember the HS state champions........That is where it counts.

Alright i got a question! If the series thing happens,, What -if your 2 series tournaments in to the season and your club goes to register for the 3rd series tournament but is turned away because they are full,, what are you supposed to do then?

Iam Undecided on the series thing,, have seen many pros and cons for the series!

Some one said GR/FS doesn't make great wrestler that hard work and dedication does. Well wrestling into July and playing baseball sounds like hard work and dedication to me.

Doug, I agree with you just this past weekend I had kids from Abilene, Manhattan and Herington carpooling together for the tournament. If the kids want it the parents can find a way to make it happen. But I guess thats not dedication.

Andrew Steele

Like I said before Doug. I know you have been around for a number of years. I do think fs and gr will help but I also think a series will to if it works the way it is supposed to. The series is better for me as its during wrestling season and I still get to be a dad at home with my other kids. Im not saying that at some point my son wont wrestle fs or gr but until its either moved up sooner or he just doesnt want to play baseball its not going to happen. I think there are a ton of other kids that feel the same way. It comes down to time, money and family to me. My family time with all 5 kids are far more important than a fs or gr wrestling. Those of you that have sacrificed things to do it then kudos to you but thats not what i am going to do.

Like I said, if anyone's kid wants to FS and GR, please, as parents, don't let the "I can't be there because his sister has a ball tourney" excuse keep the kid from wrestling. Plenty of opportunities to carpool. I know we all feel like we are imposing on people, but we typically tend to remember when people helped us out, not so much when we helped other people out, so it evens out in the end.

thats not the only reason. Brady has practice 2 nights a week. he usually plays 2 games a week. that only leaves 1 day to practice if that. we usually are playing tournaments on the weekends so you see its easier said than done.

Jake practices Baseball 4 nights a week and Freestyle 3 nights a week. Wrestling starts at 4:30-6:00. Baseball 6:00-8:00. So it is just as easily done.

I have been trying to let this die, but as I can see it will not. The good news for me is that this forum or at least the guys posting on it do not represent the majority.

It kills me that those that are wanting the series, "to make Kansas Wrestling better", are the same ones that cant find a way to Freestyle. You don't want to start the season early, because it will interfere with football. You don't want to extend it into the summer, because it will interfere with Baseball. You want Kansas wrestling to get better, but you don't want to make any sacrifices for it to become better.

Oklahoma starts in October and ends in February. You series freaks want to be like Oklahoma with the series, but not with their time frame. Maybe you preceive them as better because they are peaking at a different time of the year then we are.

Most of you that are for the series, aren't really looking for competition. The competition can be found. What you guys are wanting is a false award. How many of you only go to Tulsa when your kid is at the top of the age?

well Chad glad you got all that off your chest. Now last year was our first year at Tulsa and will be going there again next season at the bottom of the age group with both of my boys. I also do not want to be like Oklahoma but would rather beat Oklahoma when my sons are in Highschool. We do start early but havent played football yet as that starts next fall for us so yeah that might interfere. Football lasts how many months. Baseball lasts how many months. Wrestling lasts how many months thats the problem. I guess I also want to beat other states in other sports to. I also want my other kids to know that I am there for them to while they are traveling to Kc and Oklahoma City for Basketball, Volleyball and Track. Yes its hard to sit here and watch this topic because each of us are different and want different things. Guess maybe I will look into what I really want for all my kids and not just 1 or 2 as I have 5. yes thats my fault but wouldnt change a thing.

I agree there is plenty of competition right here in Kansas. The only times we left the state were for Big Horn, The Kickoff and Tulsa Nationals other than that my son found plenty of great competition right here in Kansas without a series. Looking at this years results from state my son wrestled 12 state placers 6 finalists and 2 state Champions and that is not counting multiple matches against some. If you are willing to move around in age and weight the tough kids are there waiting for you.

I fully understand that everyone is busy and some have multiply kids do other sports than wrestling. Just tell me how the seris will make Kansas wrestling better without taking away from the current triple crown award. I do not want to see an award that takes away from the FAMILIES that make GR/FS work for their kids who are trying for the current triple crown. If you explain that then I will let everyone else fight this out without my two cents.


Andrew Steele

why would it take away from the triple crown. your stuck on the name that i referred it to just to start the talk about the triple crown. Lance has stated several times that it doesnt have to be called the triple crown so thats been out for a while now. What takes away from the fs and gr triple crown is the fact that it doesnt involve as many kids as the folkstyle does and half the kids are off playing baseball. I support the idea of fs and gr but dont see anyway for me to fit it in right now. I do hope that in the future if they make some changes that i can get both my boys in fs and gr. the series idea was supposed to be about bringing all the best kids together but things just kept getting added and added. the biggest thing I see people talking about is the fact that we are adding just another award. That is just like adding the triple crown award. isnt that just another award.

How bout calling them what we always have, Tournaments, or even Open Tournaments. Triple crown, Trinity, Ultimate Dominator etc. are awards that are handed out to kids that make incredible accomplishments in this great sport. I can't see winning Park City, Salina & Hays in that same category. Most kids that win these prestigious titles will find little resistance at these very tough Kansas tournaments. There are exceptions to the rule but not many. WE play baseball on Tuesday & Thursday, wrestle on Thursday, Wednesday & Sunday & Xbox on Monday & Friday. Saturdays are for baseball games or freestyle/greco tournaments. I can't believe this topic has gotten 18 pages. WOW!! Hey, it's Monday, NOTHING going on, yard work & Xbox for the kids.

Kudos to you Patrick. you must want that wrestling dad of the year award. I will vote you in. I am going to say this. If the series was set up with the right tournaments it would be much tougher than the triple crown. The series champ would have all the best wrestlers included. The triple crown doesnt.

Oh by the way Patrick if you were to win that what do you want to win. You can choose from a big nice steak or a small old cheeseburger. Choose wisely cause i wouldnt want anyone thinking your just in it for the BLING!!! LOL

Patrick, this is an award for those who can't win the Triple Crown, Trinity, or Ultimate Dominator. If you can't win the Big ones make up an award you think your kid might be able to win. I'm going to get Winfield, Ark City and Central of Burden to make a series and call it the Cowley County Cup. Jake will feel a sense of Accomplishment and I will be a Proud Pop with a cool Trophy. I hope it will make him feel better for not winning the Trinity or Triple Crown this year.

jmo, but the triple crown is just what most people are complaining about. you mention the FAMILIES that make gr/fs work, and are trying for the triple crown.

i have heard that this proposal will be for those who can afford it,... isn't that the same?
i have heard that this proposal will be for trophy hunters............. isn't that the same?
i have heard that is won't be "the best" because not all kids will attentd.......... isn't that the same?
i have heard that you don't want anything to be taken away from any kid............. isn't that the same?
when not all kids do fs/gr doesn't the current triple crown take away from a kid who only does folkstyle?
i really don't know how to vote on this, but i do know that all of you keep saying the same things for both sides of the argument.
i think the kid that wins the classic, hays, and salina could very well contend for the current triple crown, does that take anything away from the kid who won all three of those?
we all want to be HA, but don't want to hurt any feelings at the same time? i just don't understand.

really i like the discussion, good points of view, and am just trying to play devil's advocate.

My son just picthed his triple crown jacket in the trash & put his tulsa nationals eagle on top of it. He is gearing up to go for the Cowley County Cup. Beeson your a genius.

Just to be perfectly clear, I have no problem hurting feelings. Especially if it hurts Kansas Wrestling.

We are not taking anything away from any kid...we are rewarding those who wrestle Freestyle and Greco.

Again, NO. It does not take anything away from them. It rewards those who wrestle Freestyle and Greco.

I hear ya.

I just want to say that in no may do I think a Ks series would ever compete with the Triple Crown or Trinity.
And Chad I look forward to supporting you and you Cowley County Cup!

If the best kids are NOT wrestling FS and GR, tell them to show up this summer and prove that they can beat the kids that are wrestling FS and GR, at FS and GR. It is easy to sit there and tell everyone that your kid could beat the kid that is FS and GR'ing, but to do it is another matter. .......it is a different beast, so show up and prove how versatile you are..............

I'm not badmouthing your kids playing baseball. My kid could hit a homerun EVERY AT BAT off of your kid, if my kid was playing. There we are even...........

Why don't you say who you are really directing this towards?
Cause it don't apply to all of us series freaks!
We tried freestyle! Didn't like the club so we have not been back.
We start wrestling before football is over and plan to practice thru the summer and attend camps! Even yours!
Have never complained about how long the season is!
Top or bottom we always go to Tulsa!
You tell me what other sacrifies you need me to make?



I dont want to be like them. I really like the series idea that they have and think we could use a form of it to promote wrestlng tournaments through out the whole state.



Chad
Our club has almost the exact same schedule as yours.
This year when we got to state there was 16 kids in our bracket and 10 of them we had never seen, 4 were D2 that we saw all year long and 2 we seen at Salina and Park City.
That tells me that we need to get out more!

Here was Jakes bracket:
Strait, Zachary Con-Kids
Dryden, Boo Boos` School
Bollinger, Derek East Kansas Wrestling
Perez, Kaj Greater Gold GC
Barnts, Austin Republic Co
Goans, Christopher Renegades
Page, Bryant Andover Jaguar
Green, Levi Trailhands Wrestling Club
Younger, Bryce Ellis
Withington, Tate Goodland
Hopkins, Triston Jr. Viking Wrestling Club
McGivney, Tanner Abilene Wrestling Club
Weber, Chase Brawlers
Priddy, Jordan Silver Lake Wrestling Club
Martin, Cole Hugoton

Now tell me honestly how many of these kids did Jake see THIS YEAR BEFORE STATE.

I am directing it to whoever it applies to. If you fall into that group, then yes, I am directing it towards you.


Then get out more. No one is stopping you.


Two of the kids from District 2 we did not see until Regionals, so I guess I don't see your point. Personally I don't want to wrestle the kids at State more than once or twice a year. We wrestle up in weight during the year. We did wrestle more than half of the kids in the 64lb. bracket.

You are wrong here!!! We are looking for it! I would say we are looking for it even more then others! And, the competition can be found! We are the ones trying to encourage the best/stronest brackets possible every few weeks!




Does this make you the same or worst then us "series guys"?

agreeing on about 75%, not bad.

i don't know that it would HURT ks wrestling as bad as you think, but i'm on board with it if that' what the majority would vote.

can't take anything away from anyone who has earned it. simply reward those who make sacrifices and wrestle fs/gr. OK down with that.

not OK to drive competition state wide and push our youth to challenge themselves in folkstyle by making sacrifices??? the series would not take anything away from anyone who wrestled fs/gr or any state champion, it would simply reward those who chose to seek out ks best competition, and those who happened to win.

but don't worry about my feelings they're not hurt, by any means. we just see things differently, diversity is a good thing. where i struggle is this. where are the suggestions on how to grow fs and gr, in ks?

look on the fs/gr forums there was a post from sek (maybe chanute) asking where to find fs in his area. the reply is from travis mcburney at santa fe trail. wow. i am not by any means trying to defend any series over fs/gr on developing ability. i'm just looking, seeing, and listening for ways to improve. thanks.

If that is true why did you see the same kids every week? I would definately say you were not looking for it more than others.




I don't think we wrestled anyone, even in D2 more than 3 times. We were looking for competition. Whether it meant wrestling up or going to Tulsa, USJOC, Kickoff, or Okie Tournaments before the season. You can do the same thing.

Bockman - I will concede that a series may not take away from the current Triple Crown but I would just like to know how a series would help (and I will rephrase the question) Kansas Folkstyle wrestling? Kids and Families that want to wrestle the best can now and the State Championship series is the prize at the end of the road. Why do we need to add more and more awards along the way?

Headup

have heard that this proposal will be for those who can afford it,... isn't that the same? NO it rewards kids who wrestle in the other two style and are also studs in Folkstyle.

i have heard that this proposal will be for trophy hunters............. isn't that the same? You are right unless the kid is wrestling during the summer to get better for next winter. I heard somewhere that summer wrestling make winter champions.

i have heard that is won't be "the best" because not all kids will attentd.......... isn't that the same? Last year my son wrestled two different state Champions in his bracket. Maybe all the best won't be there but there are some of the best doing it. If you want name PM me.

i have heard that you don't want anything to be taken away from any kid............. isn't that the same? The current triple crown rewards wrestler who wrestle year around not just Folkstyle. If a kids earns an award no don't take it away or create another one just to create one.

when not all kids do fs/gr doesn't the current triple crown take away from a kid who only does folkstyle? The only way it takes away from a kid that only does folkstyle is the kids who wrestle GR/FS may get more mat time and a chance to improve during the offseason.

Andrew Steele

If you want to wrestle the best competition then go find it. My youngest son traveled to different tournaments than our club to find the best in the state. He had either wrestled or watched everyone in his bracket at state wrestle. We did not drive for more than 2 and a half hours for a tournament except for one (Pratt). If you are not finding the toughest competition then you are not looking in the right places

Good Catch there Chad!!!
I should of been more clear!
With the idea of the series driving more competition, we are looking for more competition NOW! You are right. With our schedule (very close to yours) we didnt get to see the best on a regular basis. It was our schedule and the lack of people traveling outside their own walls that made us see the same kids over and over.

Were we looking for competition at the tournaments we went to???
Weighed an avg of 105 pounds
We wrestled
10U 110 for most of the year! At this weight we had multiple state champions and state runner ups each and every week.

12 110 when we double dipped in a few KS and OK tournaments.

10U 120 a few times plus we also had a few combined brackets. Giving up over 15% of your body weight can be tough!

12U 105 got to see Jaymez Turner! That was a butt whooping!

10U 100 towards the end of the season TF the state runner up!
Pinned the kid that took 5th. So for state we moved back up to 110 and weighed in at 102 at state cause in our opinion thats where the toughest competition was.

We looked for it and we found it from time to time! But it was the lack of travel within our own state that hurt us in the end. We didnt go see the D1 and D4 kids and they didnt come see us. Crossing those district lines a few more times a year will only make for stronger wrestlers.
I hope that the series would encourage that.
Thats the main focus behind the series. Motivate, encourage, entice, reward (you pick the word) kids and clubs to seek out the great competition with in KS on a more regular basis.
I wish we would all just do it on our own but we can't and we don't.
WHY DON'T WE????
We try to stay loyal to the clubs close to us so that when our tournament rolls around hopefully they are loyal to us!
There is the cost of money and time that is involved in travel.
Plus there are some kids that consistantly take 1st within their little area and why would they want to venture out and risk that?
The series is that incentive!

Are you talking Colton Steele???

So we need incentive to find competition? If I don't get rewarded for trying, why should I try? The reward of having a good match isn't enough?

Sorry still not making sense.

Here is my problem. If I am wrong, then all we do is not give out an award for traveling the state.

If you are wrong, tournaments suffer and clubs get smaller or even die out. Remember Oklahoma averages 2 tournaments a week, Kansas averages 6. Kansas wrestling will suffer if you are wrong, at worst it will stay the same if I am wrong.

your all right. the series is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. Its just no good for anything. All it is, is just like the triple crown and that is just another award that would be awarding those that do it. Im glad im over this cause now I dont have to listen to all the close minded people that just have their own idea and if your not with that then you must suck. Lance I say good luck trying to get this started because with all the negative your gonna need it.

Maybe the interpretation is going astray here. Most clubs in KS don't send their entire club to Hays, Park City, Salina, Derby, etc.. as these are considered tough tournaments. Some do but that is because it is either close for them or they have a part in it.

Most clubs send in what they think would be their toughest kids who can compete to these tougher meets. A lot of clubs out West send some of their studs to Wichita to get in some serious mat time way before state time. That's not by accident, that's by design. Why shouldn't we encourage the same to go to them. I bet Ulysses or Liberal would love to host a series tournament and have some Wichita or KC area kids come their way once in awhile. Do I see entire teams going out there, absolutely not. But at least they would get some people to come and give them a hard time in their backyard. Right now there is very little incentive to go out there unless your just curious or are going to wrestle someone specifically.

Lets face it, wrestling teams are stratified as far as the competition goes. Not everyone on your team is high caliber and not everyone is novice. Some kids need a challenge every week to stay motivated or improve, some don't. But if you send your entire team to one tournament a week then some of your kids are being robbed of better matches somewhere else.

I know a lot of parents are perfectly fine never wrestling outside of the Wichita City Metro area until state time rolls around. If that's what they want then fine, but that's pretty narrow minded if you ask me. Of course Kansans can be pretty narrow minded sometimes, me being a cheer leader myself possibly. KS is a darn big state and the wrestling doesn't stop in Wichita there are lots of places to go and support wrestling in this state if your inclined to do so. Why should Wichita be the end of the line for everyone else.

If the series thing goes ahead, look at it this way. It will encourage the higher caliber kids to attend, doesn't mean they will all be high caliber but the emphasis is there. It also doesn't mean you have to send the entire team to everyone of them either. Take your kids who are still developing to the local tournaments let them duke it out with like kids. Nobody on here ever said don't support your local tournaments, I encourage that and have done so when it was appropriate for us.

I know for a fact that not all the series tournaments in OK are packed to the hilt, some are well attended some aren't. Most have limited entries etc.. just like we do. Not everyone goes to Lawton, OK for example. They usually have enough of them though to get decent coverage for the state and more involvement. There is no pressure to attend them and teams still put on plenty of their own local tournaments. The difference is the competition is usually a little higher caliber at the Series tournaments but that is also a matter of debate even among Okies. We only do a few of them ourselves, mostly due to our finances and availability. Got some nice T-shirts for our involvement and that's it. Nothing bright or shiny or heavy.

Here's something else to consider. There were a lot of cancelled tournaments this year for one reason or another. No series involved by the way. Did the clubs that were to host those tournaments all fold up and die? No, they didn't. They have had to make changes and adapted, just like everyone else has had to do. Attrition, is something that happens all the time. Sometimes it's a terrible thing and sometimes it leads to better things. I don't think anyone has a clear enough crystal ball at this point to say what would happen one way or another if a series were added. There are a lot more factors involved in how clubs, tournaments, and people will deal with things in the future, regardless of there being a Series in KS or not.

More fodder for the thread that would not die. Ha ha Troy

Here is the difference, Folkstyle State, Freestyle State, and Greco State are recognized by the State of Kansas. The Triple Crown is an Award recognized by the State of Kansas.

The series is not.

Come on Scott, your not over this. You have posted your last post on this subject at least 10 times. You will post again.

Sorry Bockman, your vote doesn't count. There are only 2 votes that count, my 2 boys.

Its funny cause in Oklahoma, the series has been such a sucess that the OKWA is trying to incorparate that into their schedule as a recognized event.

No one is stopping you from moving to Oklahoma. Just remember if you do, you will only have the option of two tournaments a week instead of six.

And what do you mean they are trying, either they have the votes or they don't. As a wise Jedi master once said "There is no Try, only do or do not."

[
If you are wrong, tournaments suffer and clubs get smaller or even die out. Remember Oklahoma averages 2 tournaments a week, Kansas averages 6. Kansas wrestling will suffer if you are wrong, at worst it will stay the same if I am wrong. [/quote]

Beeson, I agree with most of what you are saying-I dont participate with our team in the series, for various reasons. But, go to the link
(http://okseries.com/cgi/calendar.cgi) there are very few weekends in Oklahoma with only two tournaments. The series tournaments are, of course the toughest for the most part, but not the only place to find tough matches. I think even if the series disbanded, those tourneys would still draw the competition because of facilities, history, etc more so than the sweatshirt they get at the end.

Does Kansas need to copy what we do in OK? NO! But, I can see the point of getting out of your comfort zone 2 or three times a year, whether it be with Tulsa Nats, Kickoff, whatever.

Since we have been making up all of this stuff about FS GR (summer wrestling) making you better, without seeing it first hand with our own kids, other clubs' kids, etc., I looked around to see if anyone was as good at making this stuff up as I am, and I found this from one of the Team USA coaches. He is so full of Sh&t, how can he keep a straight face while telling us this crap?;)

March 3, 2009--Zeke Jones Team USA

WHAT WILL FREESTYLE WRESTLING DO FOR YOU?



1. Freestyle wrestling is fun. It’s exciting, creative, and dynamic because you can score points from almost anywhere. You will receive more points for a spectacular throw, five points, than you do a normal takedown, one point. Freestyle rewards wrestlers for taking risk which creates more excitement and as a result takes less control of your opponent to score. Take the risk to flip him to his back, without even controlling him and get two points. The great thing about freestyle wrestling is you can even throw a guy over your head, which is legal, and if you do it with proper technique, style, and flair and the referee will reward you with a five point move. Many wrestlers that we have spoken to love freestyle because it’s fast, exciting, and it was easier to score points. Most freestyle matches also are mostly on your feet in the neutral position. Everyone loves to go takedowns. That's 80% of freestyle wrestling.



2. If your goal is to be a city champion, league champion, state champion or state placer, (or a great referee or coach) and a lofty goal I might add, freestyle increases your chances dramatically. If one wrestler is getting 40 matches a year in the high school or junior high season and another wrestler is getting those same 40 matches plus 30 matches in the freestyle season whom do you think is going to get better at a faster rate? The wrestler with more matches. More competition will give you more opportunities to improve your technique, skill, and mat strategy. More minutes on the mat = more wins. Are your high school, junior high or elementary opponents going to freestyle tournaments? If they are and you’re not, then your competitors are getting ahead of you. Don’t let them. The best wrestlers in the state are going to these tournaments. You should too.



3. Freestyle wrestling is for everyone. Whether you’re a beginner or an advanced wrestler, boy or girl, big or small, five years old or seventy five years old there’s a freestyle tournament that is right for you. There are many novice freestyle wrestling tournaments all over the nation that will give you an opportunity to try freestyle for the first time. Are you really good and looking for a challenge? Go to the biggest and the best tournaments in the world in your age group. Tournaments like the Cadet or Junior Nationals attract the best wrestlers in the United States.



4. If you’re a good high school wrestler, freestyle wrestling will increase your opportunity to earn a college wrestling scholarship. Many of the NCAA Division I college coaches travel to USA Wrestling’s Junior and Cadet Nationals to watch the best wrestlers in the nation with the goal of attracting the best high school wrestlers to come to their university. Unless you are a multiple high school state champion from Pennsylvania, Ohio, New York, New Jersey, or California, you will need to wrestle freestyle to receive the exposure so college coaches will believe you can compete at a national level. Beat a state champion from Pennsylvania, Ohio, or New York in a freestyle tournament and you will receive strong consideration for a college wrestling scholarship. In other words, if you are a state champion in a smaller populated state your chances of getting a wrestling scholarship are minimal to none.



Wrestle freestyle and increase your chances of earning a scholarship dramatically. College coaches need to know that you can compete against the best in the nation before they will feel comfortable offering you scholarship money. College coaches get excited knowing that when a wrestler comes into their program that they might become not only an NCAA Champion but also a World and Olympic Champion. Dream to become a World and Olympic Champion.



The time is now to learn freestyle wrestling. Whether you just want to improve your wrestling technique and skill, become a state placer or champion, or even want to become a World and Olympic Champion, freestyle wrestling is mandatory to become successful. If you have high wrestling goals, freestyle wrestling must be a part of your yearly wrestling plan.



We are committed to helping you learn freestyle and you, we're sure, will find it exciting. We look forward to seeing you at a freestyle tournament!



Sincerely,

Coach Jones

Wow unbelievable! If you think I am going to spend my hard earned money and spend my valuable time driving my kid around the country doing freestyle you are crazy. That USA coach doesn't know crap. If my son can win the Cowley County Crown and maybe place at Salina, then he should be good enough to go to the next level. Doug, can you take him to St. James Saturday. Thanks in advance.

I have one of those platforms that slides into my receiver hitch on my truck, I have some ratchet straps that I think will hold him down. He can ride there. I know the little SOB will eat Taco Tico Friday night just to stink me out of the truck...............

BLT -
Yes I was talking about Colton Steele from Herington not the other Colton Steele who wrestles 12 & U

WOW I have loved reading all 38 pages of this post. I have a few thoughts on this.

First when I came to the Kids Council with the idea of a Kansas Triple Crown it was to promote Freestyle/Greco. At the time we started the KTC we were looking for ways to promote summer wrestling.

Second, a couple years after that I came to the Kids Council with the idea of creating a Kansas Series. It was only suggested to reward and spend some money on kids who wrestle folkstyle. The Kids that wrestle folkstyle make up the majority of our spending dollars in Kansas and I wanted to find a way to give back to them in a fun way during there season. It's not about wrestling the best tournaments, or finding the best wrestler, or trying to cut out the litttle tournaments that we need to have. It was about coming up with a award for the FOLKSTYLE WRESTLER.

Just my thoughts.

Ned Price

exactly Ned, well said. sometimes we have to ask the "kids" what they want and where they want to wrestle. So yes, sometimes it is about the "bling". Is that a good reason to do stuff in wrestling? for the super duper serious ones probably not, but for the vast majority its what the kids want. If they want to go to a tourny for the "bling", then we go. If the bottom line of what I have read throughout all the posts at times, its about keeping kids in the sport. The best part of this sport is the life lessons they get. Hard work and determination leads to success. If that means chasing "bling" then so be it. The more wrestlers invovled will also lead to more competition. Which is what the non"blingers" want. Both sides can be ahppy. Can we all just get along.

If it's in the spirit of giving back to the wrestlers, maybe we need to look at those wrestlers who take second or third week in and week out. Those are the wrestlers that may need just that little extra drive (like winning some special "bling") not the studs that win the big tournament. Maybe we should come up with a way to reward the wrestler who bust their butts and always come up just allitle bit short. IMO these kids are the ones that have more of a chance of getting discouraged and leaving the sport. It might help if we could find a way to get them a little extra "bling"

Andrew Steele

I can't stop you all from making up some phony award. Have fun, give the kids whatever they want. Apparantly the kids are running things, not the adults. Andrew is right, its not the kids that win every weekend that get discouraged, its the ones that don't. Those are the kids that are staying in for the right reasons, for the love of the sport. Not because they get the bling. Take the bling out and do it for the love of wrestling and lets see how many of you champions stick around.

My son falls in the category of wrestling hard every weekend but usually not winning 1st. He is a tough kid that gives it his all and makes whoever he wrestles work for a win. For three weekends after state, the boys that knocked him out of 1st place asked him to come spend the night/weekend with them. One of them actually thanked him for making him a better wrestler. I think every kid he has met in the last 2 years is on his facebook page. I read it every day, and you know what. Not one of them talk about wrestling, bling, belts, rings, jackets or 6 ft tall trophies. They are talking about fishing, girls, baseball, football, and camping. He may not ever win a belt or jacket that he will eventually grow out of or lose. But he will have friends for the next 50 years that he met on the mat. Who knows, one day they might all be on these forums talking about things that didnt matter to them as a kid, but for some reason mean so much when they have kids that wrestle.

Paul,
Our son is the type wrstle we should give an award to (if such an award were to be made up). It's these type kids that make Kansas wrestling what it is, not the studs winning tough tournament. It's these kids that keep the studs on their toes and keep them working hard. They deserve more credit than they get.

Andrew Steele

Keep them exicited and working hard. I went from only qualifying for Kid's State once to being a two-time finalist and one-time champ in High School. It was all due to having the drive to improve and the work ethic that my parents instilled in me.

I like the twist that this thread has taken down the stretch. The kids that work their tails off, but haven't reached the top of the mountain. Yet, they love the sport and continue to drive on. I would throw my son into that category.

He got invited as an alternate to the Middle School National Duals although he didn't even qualify for Kids State this year (probably heard this before, but his District bracket had to be one of the toughest in the State). I told him to have a great time, but to understand that it would be extremely tough. He did have a great time, and I think he represented Kansas very well going 7-1. He wrestled five alternate matches (5-0) and three team matches (2-1, losing to a State Champ from North Dakota). He came home a Middle School National "Alternate" Champion, gold medal and all.

I asked him if he made any friends outside of the kids that he already knew. He said that he did make a new friend in the alternate room with John McNabb from the Salina Kids Wrestling Club. I have to say, I think that was one of the best things he got out of this event.

I know for a fact that awesome practice partners make great wrestlers. I also know that awesome competition makes great champions!

Let me use Brycen Schroeder as an example!

If I greatly miss quote anything in here Scott Schroeder can chime in and correct me!

Mom is a teacher and Dad is a firefighter!
Very noble professions but don’t pay a million dollars a year!

The kid travels the state this year and wins every tournament!
Did not lose a single match to a KS kid this year.
He had a goal to win the Trinity this year.
This kid travels the county looking for the very best competition in the country in the WOW series!
Last year he was pinned in the first 30 seconds of the first period by Dylan Burnoski from Illinois
They knew they were going to see him again this year. They could of ran up or down a weight but they didn’t. The kid beats Brycen in Tulsa and the Trinity quest is over. But Brycen isn’t satisfied! He trains and trains and fundraises and trains and fundraises and makes a trip out to Reno for another shot at this stud. He goes to Reno, sees this kid in the finals, and BEATS HIM!
Did Brycen win the Trinity? No!
Did Burnoski win the Trinity? NO!
But Brycen earned his points and was named to the WOW All Star Team and the 8U Outstanding Wrestler.
To me, this is what I hope the KS series would be like, but on a smaller scale. I would like to see Kids from all over our state, traveling to see the best competition and using that competition to train harder to be better. Who knows, maybe if a kid gets beat over and over but has no quit in him (like Brycen this year) it might even drive him to take up freestyle! But, come state time these kids have seen each other, they have trained harder, they have learned from their mistakes or developed new tactics and then at state we get to see what kid has grown the most throughout the year and that makes him the very best.
To ME this is the perfect example on how a series would make KS wrestlers better. And this in return this grows and makes KS Wrestling stronger!

Beeson has been right on this topic the entire time. His points about the possible affects such a series could have on Kansas wrestling have not been successfully disputed by anyone. He gave numbers and facts and everyone on the other side gave their emotions. Remember the triple crown we have now, was designed to increase interest in Freestyle and Greco. The numbers appear to show we have plenty of interest in folkstyle now, so why the need?? In fact, we already have a series - its called, subs, districts and State.

Owlbacker excellent post. It gets to what really separates wrestling from most other sports - our kids to know kids (and become friends with them) from other schools and towns. The friendships mean more than any award will, at least I hope. Everyone should go back and read the last sentence of your post and think about it.

BLT nice story - but, did Brycen do this for any awards, or for the competition. I assume he is just a competive kid - as such, no triple crown is necessary. All the triple crown idea is about is an award so the parents can brag. Remember when most of our kids go back to school after a weekend tournament most of the other kids in the school would have no idea what our kid just went thru or really care. In the end, its all about self-satisfaction from doing your best and being able to see friends you only see during the season and on facebook.

John
Beeson did give numbers but so did I. They were very different. I'm not saying his were wrong and mine were right but we must of counted differently cause there was a large varience.

As for Brycen...
Ya he did it for the Trinity award and the recognition that comes along with it but never was he afraid of the awesome competition that he knew the Wow Series would genarate.

As for the triple crown...
It kills me that has even been brought into this topic. Bockover misworded what he was saying in the begining and this was always a series topic.
The reason it kills me is because the Triple Crown is an award that is all about bragging rights because it is one tough mother to win. Only the very best and most dedicated wrestlers win the triple crown.

And come Monday...
Our community supports or wrestlers. So after winning OW at liberty or winng Tulsa or placing at state or winning Reno the school has our wrestlers bring in their awards and they do a small feature on the morning school news program. They talk about where they went and how many kids were in the bracket and how they train and etc etc etc.
And for the whole day the kids at Nelson Elementy are talking about wrestling. And our little guys are walking around promoting the sport of wrestling in Kansas.

I just want to say that it saddens me to see all the push back this series idea has gotten. I really don't understand why people feel so strongly againest this.
We are really just talking about taking tough existing tournaments throughout the state. Promoting a very tough single bracket per weight. And rewarding the kids that travel the entire state and face the best competition throughout the season and do well in these tournaments.
IMO
This will only make our state series that much tougher cause these really good kids will of already wrestled in a series tournaments and will of had to go back and practice harder to be ready for these kids come state time.

This also promotes unity and communication across all the districts. It could allow some tournaments to CoOp with smaller clubs that do not have tournaments or non profitable ones. This would clean up our over crowded schedule or allow smaller clubs the chance to fundraise by helping a larger tournament.
These tougher tournaments could continue to draw more competition from across the country.
If the series produces extra money it could be used to award more kids. Maybe award the second and thrid place kids or maybe even help out by donating to the freestyle programs. Or maybe even help struggling clubs with new singlets or a donation towards much needed new mats etc etc etc.
All I see this series doing is supporting and strengthening the wrestling in our state by giving back.
Why would anyone not be in support of the ideas listed above.

Beeson is right - he is always right - he knows what is right- (when you say right - I think of Beeson)or @ least we can say that because beesen does the most posting, he THINKS he is right., Hail Beeson.
It doesn't look like the series has hurt oklahoma wrestling at all. FYI BEESON - As someone who has played the series - my kid and the group of kids we wrestled the series with all had fun chasing the points, and getting the bling if we won - the series tournies were tournies, thats it! - we went where we thought the most wrestlers in our bracket would be, and if that just happened to be the series tournaments, all the better. The series drew us to oklahoma for fun and competition and I bet it would draw some okies up here-(more competition). I promise I wont' wrestle a series tournament again because beeson is against it.
P.S. I didnt see Beeson @ St. James wrestling freestyle this weekend.
But of course I wouldn't have been @ St Sames either if there had been a series tournnament.HA!HA!
Again I say "cut weight to motivate" at least 9 pounds in the 6/u and at least 12lbs from there on out. "If your not cuttin- your losing to those who are" -
And remember "remote weigh-ins always alleviate ringworm"

I am assuming that I must have beaten you in High School. That was 20 years ago....let it go.

No Beesen, I never wrestled here. I find it funny that you would bring up something 20 years old though. Maybe YOU need to let it go. What either one of us did 20 years ago is irrelavent. My point is, everybody has an opinion - but that doesnt mean they are right-or wrong. From what I read on these forums, it appears that if someone doesn't agree with you, they are wrong.

Again I say "cut weight to motivate" at least in the 6/u (FYI beeson thats a joke)and remember remote weigh-ins seem to cure ringworm

LIGHTEN UP BEESON! You don't have to go to a series tournie or wrestle freestyle/greco.... if YOU don't want to... thats your choice.
I know why you don't go to them anyhow - it's because your running! (FYI-again a joke) I'm telling you its a joke, because I just dont know how smart you are - seems to me a person in your position should listen twice as much as they talk. Is kinda like poker - you don't always have to show your hand.
We still love ya though! Least your doing something - even if it is "only running your mouth".(Again thats a joke - Hope you can handle it, you gotta admit its a good bust) especially when we see how you dish out your opinions.

Birddog- Since you know who I am, make sure you come up to me at Rose Hill and run your mouth telling me a good joke. (FYI-not a joke) I don't think you will but wanted to give you the opportunity, I will just look for the Birddog with its tail between its legs.(FYI-again, not a joke)

Beeson, if you should run into Mr. birddog & you do have a confrontation, make sure Tom Richards isn't there & it doesn't go the to disciplinary committee. Believe me from first hand experience it can get ugly & the whole story isn't always told.

No confrontation....just an introduction.

Nevermind....I know who Birddog is. No introduction will be needed.

Birddog - Klaus Schmidt- Eureka, Kansas. Aren't you the district II director? I would hope a person in your capacity wouldn't feel intimidated by posts on the website, disagreing
with your opinion. Because it sounds like you want to kick my ... You are validating what I wrote in my earlier post. If someone doesn't agree with you "they are wrong". So now If things don't go your way - you start kickin ..., Could there be some truth to to what I wrote? Most poeple don't get their buttons pushed that easily.

Klaus, some are worth kicking...others aren't. Your safe. I know there are alot of idiots on this forum, I just never took you for one of them....guess I was wrong. See I can admit when I'm wrong.

There is NO WAY I am going to read all of this but my opinion is: We are a USA Wrestling state. USA Wrestling's triple crown is winning nationals in your age group in Folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco Roman. Three kinds of wrestling thus the TRIPLE CROWN just like what we have set up for winning State in each of the three styles. If you want to have three other tournaments in a series in KS lets call it the Triceratops and give out a dinosaur head statue for winning the three tournaments. A few years ago we were talking about giving out a I70 Challenge trophy if you won Hays, Salina, Topeka, and Mill Valley. Somehow the idea died off.

Will my boys be able to wrestle in the Triceratops & the Cowley County Cup? If not we got a tough decision to make.

I am waiting for the Township trials!

Beeson,
Tou-che" - It appears you are a man of wit. As a constituent of yours in D2 along with many others on here, I would hope that you would represent not only your opinion, but all of ours (with respect!). By the way, if you would look on the oklahoma web site you will see that oklahoma has more than 2 tournies a weekend (as you have previously stated) and their series tournaments are not always the most attended ones.
I don't understand how a series, challenge etc,... whatever you want to call it, would interfere with or hurt - the Kansas Triple Crown, freestyle/greco or folkstyle. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't - it seems to have helped oklahoma youth wrestling - It brought some kansas kids in. (not just us)
Beeson lighten up: Everyone has an opinion - ours count just as much as yours. If and when a series or whatever you want call it, should come up, I hope you see and represent the fact that their is a group of poeple & kids who just might like that kind of thing.(and the bling)

Oh Yeah - (my motto) "cut weight to motivate" & remember cut the most weight in the 6/u, especially when trying to win your third novice state title. And for those of you who get ringworm - remote weigh-ins seem to get rid of it.

Beeson in regards to your idiot comment. "It takes one to know one" > Tou-Che" back to you! - Klaus

Real quick, the only reason I do so much posting is because some of you don't read what has been posted before and keep asking the same questions and making the same remarks.

Okies do not need a USA card for any tournament they wrestle. Until they become a USA Wrestling State we will not draw the numbers of wrestlers to our tournaments as they do to theirs.(Already Posted)


I said they average 2 tournaments a week, and Kansas averages 6.(Already Posted)

It's the third time you have posted your motto...we get it.

In fairness when this thread started, there was talk of All American Status, seris tournaments every weekend, extensive travel and costs, and all sorts of outlandish awards. If someone wanted to get Salina, Hays, The Classic, and a tourney in District 1 together, and the kid with the most points got a t-shirt, I would be more on board. But lets not get all excited and make this bigger than it really is.

Beeson - I would agree with you about being more on board if Hays, Salina, The Classic and a D1 tournament had a point system and give out a t-shirt but I don't think we need to make it a huge deal. I think with a point system the kids that look for the tough competition and take 2nd or 3rd instead of winning gets something for keeping the top dogs honest.

Andrew Steele

I said they average 2 tournaments a week, and Kansas averages 6.(Already Posted)

Dang, it sure is fun to watch all the talk, and everyone arguing with Beeson. Dont know him, sometimes agree, sometimes dont. But saying 2 tournaments a week is hogwash. Must be that average thing, because if you throw out the earlybird October dates, and Christmas, and the weekend of the state tourney, there are normally 4-6 tourneys a weekend to choose from.

The series will not hurt wrestling in Kansas. Yes, it will cost some extra to travel, but just like here in Oklahoma, you dont have to participate, and sometimes kids both need and want to get away from the same old same old, and the series gives them a chance to do that.

At the same time, it will not necessarily help wrestling in Kansas that much either. The elite kids will find the competition, the second tier will have a mixed schedule, and the rest will find tournaments that fit their needs, whether it be tougher competition or a couple of winnable matches for confidence.

Isnt the idea to keep as many kids in the sport for as long as possible?

If you throw out our earlybird December dates, Christmas, and the weekend of the state tourney, there are normally 6-9 tourneys a weekend to choose from in Kansas. These do not include Novice.