Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship

These posts where from 2005

As a parent and a coach. I say no to the 6 and under state tournament. A two month season and 20 matches is plenty for that age division. I personally would like to see these kids wrestle in high school and not raise their expectations at such an early age. I see enough tears from this age group daily at practice, regular tournaments, and their attention span is very short to begin with. That is just my two cents worth. I was against it 12 years ago and I am still against a 6 and under state tournament this year. This topic gets voted on every other year by the club representatives at the state meeting. I guess you know my vote. It is a BIG NO!

Coach Sean

I still believe that a 6 and under state championship is to young for baseball, football, basketball, tennis, track, boxing, or whatever.

Coach Sean


I had to go back to the 2003 Archives (when the talk forum was just beginning) to get some info on this very same topic. Here it is and there was a whole bunch more.

Member Member # 21 posted April 03, 2003 09:30 PMApril 03, 2003 09:30 PM This topic has been discussed at great length for the last four or five years and it has ran off people from coming to the state meeting because they would argue about it for so long. District II has been pushing to add 6&U at state the other three districts have been apposed.Now not everyone in district II is in favor nor are all the people in the other districts apposed. But last year we voted for 6&U at state and it got turned down 70% to 30%. This year was the first state meeting without discussing it and it was nice.The main reason everyone used was it put to much pressure on the 6 yr. olds to wrestle at state.


smokeycabin Member Member # 17 posted April 04, 2003 04:53 AMApril 04, 2003 04:53 AM 6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-americans. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will never vote for 6 & under state. We do not need to put false expectations into these young childrens minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was an pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eigth grade. I have seen it all to often that a parent is trying to create a national/olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So lets stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your childs eyes.I have seen parents way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people.The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!

It is not my intention to eliminate opportunities for these youngsters. If a few of the parents around the mats for 6 & under would act like the majority of parents IN THE STANDS. I call it "The Grizzley Sow Syndrom" Where Moms and Dads are initially there to protect their cubs, but then end up fighting with other Moms, Dads, Grandparents, Coaches, Refs, and even Kids from the other team. It is very hard to coach and help someone's child when a parent is screaming in my ear quit crying, get up, get mad, etc. These verbal coaching techniques are not in the books on coaching wrestling. I have heard MUCH MUCH worse than the above mentioned but I'll keep that out of the forum. Have you ever seen the number of coaches per kid at the eight and under state tournament in each corner. Some of those coaches have a camera, camcorder, - some (1/2 or more) of those in the corner do not have a coach’s card. Could you imagine the 6 & under. I hope that day does not come. Some parents have "Press Passes" - I did not know Kansas had that many local papers following kids wrestling. I do not want to get into any personal attacks or discussions about any specific kid, family or club. 5 and 6 year olds - yes 1/3 to 1/2 half of their life they have been in diapers.

Coach Sean

I know a lot of other kids that want to drive a car when they are 10, 12 years old - they need to wait their turn. KSHSAA - High School doesn't have a JV State tournament.

Why kids ditch youth sports
• Email
• Facebook
• Twitter
• Newsfeeds
• StumbleUpon
• Delicious
1. Print this page
"Fun" is a key element of good youth sports programs
Kids join youth sports programs in droves -- and drop out in droves. Twenty million to 30 million 6- to 18-year-olds participate in youth sports programs, but around 80 percent opt out by the age of 12.
Coaching and the "fun factor" contribute to this attrition rate, say Indiana University coaching experts. Kids join such programs largely to have fun -- and they drop out when it's no longer fun. Pressure and competition need to take a back seat to the development of fundamental skills and enjoyment.
"In this country, we often use a 'warm body approach' in youth sport coaching," said David Gallahue, dean of IU Bloomington's School of Health, Physical Education and Recreation and co-author of Understanding Motor Development: Infants, Children, Adolescents, Adults (McGraw Hill, 2006).
In other words schools and recreation programs in the U.S. frequently resort to taking what they can get, often turning to well intentioned but ill prepared parents with little or no coaching experience to work with young athletes. Countries such as Canada, Australia and Great Britain require youth coaches to have certain levels of certification. If no certified coaches are available, no teams are created.
Coaches and parents should take as much pressure off of the kids as possible, because undue pressure can drive young athletes away from the sport prematurely.
"Parents and coaches should not attempt to live out their own fantasies and shortcomings through their children," said track and field expert Phillip Henson, who helps coordinate the coaching minor degree program in HPER's Department of Kinesiology. "The primary purpose of youth sports is to have fun."
Gallahue, who has advised USA Gymnastics and U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association on coaching education, and Henson, who directed the field events at the 1996 Olympic Games, offered the following suggestions to parents and coaches:
• Parents should look for the narrowest age range possible, with two-year spans being preferable. Kids who are closer in age get along better. They have similar physical, social and cognitive development levels, although their skill levels could vary widely.
• Very few sports require athletes to specialize before the age of 10 to be really good. For sports such as gymnastics, figure skating, diving and alpine skiing, early specialization may be a plus. Just about everything else requires no such early specialization, Gallahue said.
• The primary focus in youth sports should be on developing skills, not just on competition. Children do not automatically acquire basic skills such as swimming, throwing, bouncing and balancing -- skills that can lead to more specific sport skills, such as throwing a baseball or dribbling a basketball, Gallahue said. They need the time and space to practice, as well as quality instruction and positive encouragement. The bulk of youth sports, even at the middle school and high school levels, should focus on developing skill and tactics, he said, with a growing proportion of the time devoted to actual competition. In the early years, for example, 80 to 90 percent of the practice time should be devoted to skill development, with this decreasing to 40 to 60 percent in the later years.
• Helping children find success is key to making youth sports fun. Parents and coaches should help kids set realistic goals -- such as achieving a personal best -- that do not hinge on winning or losing a match.
• Children should not be treated like miniature adults.
• Attempt to take as much pressure off of the children as possible. This includes pressure to win, or to "be the best." Value needs to be placed on the needs of the children not the performance.
• New coaches can find coaching resources at Human Kinetics (http://www.humankinetics.com/), a publisher of sports and physical activity media.

How to Decrease the Dropout Rate in Youth Sports
By Caroline Carter, eHow Contributor
updated: May 6, 2010

Getting kids to stay in sports.
The National Alliance for Youth Sports states that of the roughly 40 million boys and girls playing sports in America, approximately 75 percent will drop out by the time they are 13. According to a University of Maryland critical survey on youth and sports in America, every year the attrition rate is 35 percent, and by the age of 11 most of the better players will get channeled off to select travel team opportunities. Other players drift to different interests as they approach adolescence. Bad experiences also contribute to kids dropping out of sports, but there are a few things parents and coaches can do to keep kids interested in youth sports.
Difficulty: Moderately Challenging
Instructions
1. 1

Focus on fun.
Take away the focus on winning and replace it with skill development and fun. Cut down on the amount of games and tournaments played. Set adult expectations aside and figure out what it is that the children need from playing organized sports, and then start serving those needs. Seek out low-cost, no-travel house league programs.
2. 2

Seek professional assistance from those who can help you make a difference in your community.
Access professionals who can help you set up action committees in your area. For help, look up helpful websites like Bobbigelow.com (see Resources). Bigelow is a former NBA player who helps communities restructure their sports programs. He believes that the current focus on adult sports models for kids is not in kids' best interests, and he is a proponent of learning new skills, participation, fun and properly managed competition.
3. 3

Change up your kids' play.
Decrease the grueling hours committed to the sport. Limit the burnout factor for young players by encouraging other interests, whether it be in other sports, music or art. When the time devoted to your kids' sports starts to interfere with them just being kids, pull back the reigns a bit and let them enjoy simply playing in the driveway with friends. Kids can pick up a lot about sports by creatively playing on their own or with friends, unencumbered and with no coaching


Read more: How to Decrease the Dropout Rate in Youth Sports | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_6163082_decrease-dropout-rate-youth-sports.html#ixzz12EtwZBMv

Unless I am mistaken, we already have an unofficial 6U state. What is the difference? The current 6U state tournament is IMO much more grueling than a recognized elimination format like we have for other ages. In addition, we allow 6U kids to wrestle up in age for the current qualifiers. Unless we are willing to ban all kids under the age of 7 from participation there will always be opportunities for the 6U crowd!
I am more in favor of encouraging all clubs to look after their own kids and protect them from over-zealous parents, regardless of the age. Until such time as we ban the 6U kids, I say let them have their own state! Not having a qualifier for the 6U group is another one of those "feel good" ideas that is just silly.

That is the current motion....to only allow 7 & 8 year olds to participate in subs and for 6 & U to have their State. I'm uncertain with what's wrong with their State right now? The T-shirt says 6 & Under State Championship. They all get to go & wrestle out their 20 or 30+ man bracket!

I don't understand WHY we need to add 6 & U State to the current series. The kids are only 6 for pete's sake K & 1st graders! I don't understand why it's constantly re-emerging as a topic.

Some one enlighten me. Very good points made Coach Sean.

For one, we never should have allowed any club to use the word "State" in the title of their tournament. The word "State" should be reserved for only those tournaments sponsored or held by the state body as a whole.


So explain the logic of not holding a true State tournament when one is already being held again. We say we don't want a State tournament when one is already in existence? A true State tournament that would not have 30+ man brackets and thus would eliminate some of the stress on the kids!


The only ones who should not support a true 6U State tournament are the members of the Ottawa Wrestling Club!


I think I just did.

I don't think the current motion is to add the 6u to the state series. From what I gather, it will be it's own series. Each district will have a qualifier the Sunday after H.S. regionals, then the 6U state tournament will be the Sunday after H.S. State.....site to be determined.

At first glance, I thought that the 6U kids would have the option of wrestling either in the 6u series or the March series, but I think I was wrong. I think this motion would eliminate 6u wrestlers in March.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right Pelland. It would allow the 6 & U's to have their "own series" & eliminate their participation in subs.

Sportsfan you're "so enlightening"!

I hope the discussion is short on this topic at the district and state meeting. It is Yes or No. If we as a state body are trying to DEVELOP Kids over time - a 6 & under state tournament is not my idea of developing them - just my opinion.

I understand what your saying, but explain to me what the difference is. Either they wrestle in the "STATE" series, or they go to Ottawa. Either way they are wrestling. Actually, the way it is today, they can wrestle both. The proposal would actually be better if too much wrestling is bad.

Personally, I don't know what stance to take.

I understand what your saying, but explain to me what the difference is. Either they wrestle in the "STATE" series, or they go to Ottawa. Either way they are wrestling. Actually, the way it is today, they can wrestle both. The proposal would actually be better if too much wrestling is bad.

Personally, I don't know what stance to take.

Ottawa tournament is run by one club. The state tournament series would be run by each district and the state organization.
I do not have Ottawa on our schedule and I will not have a six and under state tournament series on our schedule.

Same here on the discussion for Sunday. Where are the Proponents for supporting the 6 & U state? Are we attempting to eliminate Ottawa's 6 & U State stronghold?

Altogether this should be within the Novice umbrella as these wrestlers are Novice falling into < 2 years of experience. Then again our low wt's in 8 and under (4o# or so) when the class's top weight is 125#. I would be interested in knowng how many 7 & 8 year olds truly weigh 40 lbs and is this class filled primarily of 6 & U's?

Let me be the first but I am guessing there are over 2,000 others who are right behind me. First off I really don't want to make this about Ottawa. Rick has done a fine job running an unofficial but sanctioned event. However, that event in itself became problematic. The brackets were too big, the travel was lengthy, and it is too late in the season.

The proposal is to have District tournaments conducted on the Sunday after HS regionals. The top four from the four districts will qualify for state in Salina the following weekend which is the Sunday after 4A State. This will be a USAWKS Kansas Kids State Tournament. The qualifying will be standardized and the age division will be defined just as the other recognized groups who will be wrestling later in March. This will end the season for 6U wrestlers in February. It will limit the brackets to 16. The event will be in a large arena instead of a high school. The awards and brackets will be the same as the other age divisions wrestled in Topeka. The drive will be four hours or less for ANYONE who lives in Kansas. It will end at a decent hour allowing these kids to be home and in bed for school the next day.

The 6U group CANNOT be added to the existing event. The existing event is already too large for the arena and city it is held in. (We run out of quality hotel rooms every year, wrestling on partial mats for 8U, 10U, and 12U is just not good!) The Pros FAR outweigh the cons.

I hope that everyone will JUST SAY YES and make this happen for the 2,000 plus 6U wrestlers we have buying USA Wrestling Cards. I don't have a 6U wrestler but I will be there to help and see the smiles on their faces!

If this passes do not add another weekend date - I already go to about 16 to 20 tournaments during a folkstyle season - that is between Novice and Open tournaments. I will still vote NO either way - from a district and state viewpoint on the importance of having a 6 and under state tournament.

The proposal eliminates the Sunday date now used by Ottawa as the 6U season will be basically over. The two Sundays we are proposing are now used by clubs for Novice tournaments so the proposal doesn't really ADD a date. But, that said, Smokey, you don't have to go and STA doesn't have to send any 6U to the district or state tournament. This is an idea that the good far outweighs the bad.

I guess I would like to understand WHY you say NO.

How many other sports (baseball, softball, soccer, etc.,) in Kansas have a 6 & under state tournament? I do not know. Also how long of a season do these other 6 & under sports last?
And I will not go to a 6 & under kids wrestling state series tournament. We may lose a few six and under signups - but that is OK also.

4 & under state next year and diaper nationals the following.

I am still not seeing HOW an option to compete and be measured against your peers is a BAD thing? It basically appears that you are saying VOTE NO BECAUSE SMOKEY DOESN'T LIKE THE IDEA.

They should be involved in the Novice division. i.e. NOVICE Championships. I echo smokey's viewpoint.

Ottawa by the way has done a very fine job of creating this tournament...why the Yank now?

I realize the centrality of Salina & the nice facility but do you really think the draw of a 6 & U State (160 kids) with 16 kids in each of the classes 37 lbs - 66 lbs & HWT = approx 10 wt. classes. 16 (wrestlers providing filled bracket) + approx 10 classes (37# - 66# + HWT. classes) x 10 fans at each wt. door admission same as USAW - Kansas wrestling fees? Will really exalt the child into further love of the sport with ultimate aim to wrestle HS & further? How would this amount offset facility fee; referee expenses, awards expenses? The Math just doesn't inch towards the black too well.

So, approximately altogether a State Tournament ran with USAKS funds for 160 6 & U wrestlers. Each of those 6 & U participants paying state fee's ($20.00 x 16 x 10 = $3200 for entry fees providing all brackets are full 16). Top 6 get awards (similar/identical to the State awards). (expense unknown).
Each 160 wrestler's bring 4 adults to watch and approx 2 student equivalent of approximate ($4.00 = Adult (> 13) ==> $2560 if possible; ($2.00 gate fee for each wrestler's chilfren 5-12) ==> $640...So, approximately $3,000 in gate fees.

I am unsure of Ottawa's prices.

As well, with 6 & U's being "over after" (District: Feb. 20 & State: 27 2011)--The following clubs having already scheduled their tournaments would have to eliminate 5 & 6 y.o.'s OR would you allow them to wrestle providing they wrestled in the 8 & U division? (Douglass Jr. Open & Ellworth County Open).

So a few questions...
Will wrestlers get the choice of wrestling either tournament??
And what about all the lower weightst at 8u that are made up mostly of 6U...
Will those be revisited or eliminated in order to have fuller brackets or to save a little time at the state tournament?

No choice. 6U will become an official age group and will be treated like the others. No bumping up. We will see what happens to the participation level in those lower weights and make necessary adjustments after this year.

"We will see what happens to the participation level in those lower weights and make necessary adjustments after this year."

That is assuming the proposal passes or stays the same.

10. Add a 6 & Under State Championship series with the following provisions:
a. Each district holds a district championship on the Sunday following Kansas high school regionals. Four qualifiers from each district advance to the state championship.
b. The State Tournament Committee shall establish a location and procedures to be followed at the state championship, which will be held the Sunday following the Kansas high school state championships.
c. Competitors are limited to 6 &Under wrestlers who were at least four years old under Section III Article I. Rule 4-4-1.
d. The 8 &Under division shall be renamed the 7 & 8 division.
e. 6 &Under will be added as a division. The weight classes for this division shall be the same as the current 8 & Under division, with the addition of 37 lbs.

37, 40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 55, 58, 61, 64, 67, 70, 73, 76, 80, 88, 95, 110, 125

19 Weights is 304 wrestlers. The tournament will break even or make a little. When you consider how much they contribute to through card purchases finances are not an issue.

Ottawa is NOT centrally located. The brackets are too large and it is not an OFFICIAL state tournament.

Only the Wichita Classic (and other smaller tournaments that weekend) and the 6U Ottawa Tournament have 6U after the proposed dates. Nothing is stopping them from continuing that age group. We are not looking to MANDATE the end of the season only schedule the state series earlier.

I promise that this proposal has been well thought through and discussed. It is the right thing to do for these wrestlers.

Sean, you are starting to sound like One Big A. Mistake America. It is an OPPORTUNITY, not a mandate. This would make the 6U season basically 8 weeks in Kansas. Why would you DENY an opportunity to 2,000 plus wrestlers who paid their $35? No one is saying, ALL 6U WRESTLERS MUST GO TO DISTRICTS AND STATE. It is a choice. Sport0 and I TOTALLY agree.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com


From one Big W to another,

I would not keep throwing out the 2,000 number. What percentage of that number went to Ottawa and what percentage decided not to go. How big of a tournament would each district be? We do have a percent or number of parents in that 6 & under division that are not in favor of a 6 year old state tournament. That age group (6 & under) is probably the largest particpation number in every sport acrossed the nation. I know every sport acrossed the nation does not have a state championship for six year olds and I also know some states do offer such opportunities. Attrition weeds them out and then they begin to learn the sport or activity of choice and wait their turn to go to the big dance.

Good healthy discussion - I hope the district and state meeting have a time limit and they vote - No or Yes.

The districts and state will be 6U only. Small tournaments that can be easily run in a very timely manner. One of the biggest knocks against wrestling is too much time in the gym. This proposal addresses that issue as well as creating an opportunity for these wrestlers. I am not sure how I am going to use any number other than 2,000 as we don't have any until we actually do this. I know that some of the brackets in Ottawa were 64 wrestler line brackets.

Sean, you still aren't saying WHY you are opposed or what is BAD about this proposal.

Why rename 8u? If you rename 8U you might as well rename 10u, 12u, and 14u. Leave it 8u. Everyone knows what 8u is, just like everyone knows what the other age groups are.

It was 8U because we allowed 5 & 6 year olds to wrestle. Now we will not.

The age groups and weights below were taken directly from the bylaws.



8 & Under
40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 55, 58, 61, 64, 67, 70, 73, 76, 80, 88, 95, 110, 125
9 & 10
52, 55, 58, 61, 64, 67, 70, 73, 76, 79, 82, 85, 90, 95, 100, 110, 120, 130, 150, 170
11 & 12
64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 130, 140, 150, 165, 190, 215, 240
13 & 14
75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155, 160, 165, 175, 205, 235, 265
High School
100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155, 160, 165, 175, 185, 215, 250, 285

Sean, you still aren't saying WHY you are opposed or what is BAD about this proposal.

Give me supporting data on 6 and under sports where a state championship series is the norm. I need supporting data from other state organizations that says this is the right way to develope young children in these activities.

Jay Coakley's - Is this guy a distant cousin with a different spelling.


Youth Sports - From 2005
Quick Facts

Age in which children first have the capability to understand social dynamics of competitive sports: 8 years old

• Average stint in one sport : 5 years

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

• Number of kids ages 5-19 in U.S.: 61,446,112
• Number of kids ages 5-18 that competes in 61 top sports organizations: 38,259,845

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

Youth Age Divisions

Youth competitions typically take place in two-year age divisions. These age divisions provide young athletes the opportunity to compete with other athletes of similar ability. The age divisions for competition year 2005 are as follows:

Age Division Year of Birth
Bantam (10 & under) 1995+
Midget (11-12) 1993-1994
Youth (13-14) 1991-1992
Intermediate (15-16) 1989-1990
Young (17-18) 1987-1988


2005 Divisions
The Junior Olympics is divided into six divisions for boys and six divisions for girls. The athlete's year of birth shall determine the division in which the athlete shall compete. With each succeeding year each division shall be adjusted. Listed below are the 2005 divisions (NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):
Sub-Bantam: Born 1997 or after
Bantam: Born in 1995-1996
Midget: Born in 1993-1994
Youth: Born in 1991-1992
Intermediate: Born in 1989-1990
Young: Born in 1987-1988

(NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):

Hockey players are separated into levels based on their age.
• Mites--This is the youngest age group for youth hockey. There are two groups of mites, silver mites and gold mites. Silver mites consist of six year olds and younger, while gold mites consist of seven and eight year olds.
• Squirts--Squirts are between the ages of nine and ten years.
• Pee Wees--Pee Wee is a turning point in a hockey player's life for two reasons. One, it is the first year that body checking is introduced and allowed. Second, it is the first year in which a slap shot is allowed. Pee Wees are eleven and twelve years old.
• Bantams--Bantam is the age where competition and skill really begin to take over. Bantams are thirteen and fourteen years old.
• Midgets--Midgets are the oldest age group before adult or amateur hockey. Midgets are fifteen and sixteen years old.



This is another post from back in 2005

Any parent can start their own club and pay the CLUB FEES and then they get to vote. One vote per club at the state meeting in Salina - that is the way it works. We typically take 2 or 3 coaches from our club to the meeting and only one of us gets to vote. If our club and their parents and all other clubs parents show up we would need the Expo Center. The agenda is sent in advance to club representatives so we know what topics that needs to be voted on. When I need to get an EXPERT opinion - on kids, I ask our parents and coaches. One of our coaches is from a family of 15 kids and the other coach is from a family 14 (not experts - but they have a pretty good field lab). A couple other families in our club have large families with around 10 kids. I consider myself - from a family of 6 kids (novice) and have around 100 cousins on my dad's side and around 100 cousins on my mother's side. I get a bit of insight from my parents. My father was a social worker in the public school system and my mother -well you know her job. One of my brothers is a head high school wrestling coach and elementary teacher. This by no means makes these people or ME EXPERTS on today’s young children. I have left that up to the people who do the studies. I am sure the board members keep tabs on the forum and all the topics - but I doubt they get into it as much as I do. I have been involved with Kansas Kids Wrestling Since 1992. We have come a long way since then.

Coach Sean McCarthy

So, you think it is bad for wrestling because we are burning out kids?

How to Coach Tee Ball Without Going INSANE : FAQ
TEE BALL AGE
Q: Although my son's still tee ball age, I think he's ready to step up an age group and play machine pitch ball with the older kids. What do you think?

A: Why hurry? Your son's probably only 6 or 7 and has plenty of baseball ahead of him. Let's remember that only part of the reason you had your son play tee ball was to give him a sport to play. The other part of the reason you had him play tee ball was to expose him to the game of baseball in a way that had him focusing on the basic elements of what is arguably the most difficult skill to master in baseball: hitting. Remember that professional baseball players were hitting baseballs off of tees long before the first tee ball team was formed to improve their swings. The tee and the game of tee ball are, first and foremost, instruments to aid in player development. The game of tee ball develops good habits and some degree of muscle memory in players before pressure and the relative absence of maturity force them into bad habits while doing whatever it takes to put the bat on a pitched ball, whether that ball has been pitched by a machine, a coach, or by another player. I'd leave him in tee ball with his peers.


© 1998-2007 Bullhorn Media Group. All Rights Reserved.
www.insanebooks.com

19 weight classes is Outrageous for 5 & 6 year olds in comparison to the following tournaments & their 6 & U classes. I cannot fathom that there are (16) 5 & 6 y.o. that weigh 125 lbs in the State. Your talking about complete 16 man brackets.

Tournament examples:
6 & U Only
USJOC: 37-66 + HWT (only 1 in HWT): 5 entries in 66 [10 classes]
Tulsa Nationals: 37-60, LT HWT 61-70; 71-Up HWT [10 classes]
Rocky Mountain Nationals: (Monster Match) 37-74 [9 classes]
Big Horn Nationals: 35 - 40 - 45 - 50 - 55 - 60 -
65 - 70 - hwt.*
[ 9 classes ]
I guess I could keep searching but realistically the 8 & U weights are not suitable for the 6 & U wrestlers.

Moreso interesting would be the identification of the attrition within the 6 & U group that does not make it past 1 month of practice because its not WWE or how many only go to Novice tournamnents throughout the season. The $$$ cannot substantiate the potential loss within this group. More review apparently needs to be done in regards to the weights as I'm sure most of the 40#'rs in the 8 y.o.'s are truly 6U.

Pushing too hard too young
Take away the fun factor in sports and kids can burn out Advertisement | ad info
. F.Birchman / MSNBC.com By Jacqueline Stenson
MSNBC contributor

msnbc.com msnbc.com
updated 4/29/2004 11:23:55 AM ET 2004-04-29T15:23:55
Share Print Font: +-Intense training schedules. Pressure to win and be the best. Painful injuries. Given all these factors, it’s not surprising that some athletes simply burn out on their sport. But what is shocking to many in the field are the young ages at which this is increasingly happening -- sometimes as early as 9 or 10.

The scenario often goes something like this: Eager to nurture the next A-Rod or Michelle Kwan, parents enroll their 5- or 6-year-olds in a competitive sports league or program. Over the next few years, training intensifies and expands to the off-season, making practice essentially year-round. Youngsters may join more than one league or a traveling team. They may have to sacrifice other interests and give up most of the down time that allows them to just be kids.

Soon the stakes get higher because many parents and coaches play to win. Winning means recognition and that could lead to lucrative opportunities -– high school championships then college scholarships and perhaps a shot at the pros.

“Kids sports have become much more competitive,” says Dr. Jordan Metzl, medical director of the Sports Medicine Institute for Young Athletes at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City.

“And in general, high-level competition for young kids is not a great thing,” says Metzl, co-author of “The Young Athlete: A Sports Doctor’s Complete Guide for Parents.”

With more kids than ever in organized sports, an estimated 30 million of them up through high school, Metzl and other experts in sports medicine and youth athletics say they are increasingly concerned about the pressures put on some children to excel. Not only are these youngsters at risk for emotional burnout, they may also develop injuries that plague them for a lifetime. Some will turn to steroids or other performance-enhancing substances to try to gain an edge. And some may give up on sports -– and exercise -- altogether.

'It's not fun anymore'
Kids with a strong internal drive may thrive on the competition. But the pressure can be too much for others, particularly grade-schoolers who aren't as equipped to deal with the stress as older athletes.

advertisement | ad info
Advertisement | ad info
Advertisement | ad info
.And the goals of sports for young kids can differ dramatically from those of their parents and coaches, says youth fitness researcher Avery Faigenbaum, an associate professor of exercise science at the University of Massachusetts in Boston.

“Most children would rather play on a losing team than sit on the bench of a winning team,” he says.

When Faigenbaum asks kids who've quit why they're no longer interested in sports, their typical response: "It's not fun anymore." They wanted to have a good time, make friends and learn something new, he says. But make the game all about hard-core training and the final score, and many kids will sideline themselves.

“They’re getting turned off of sports at a young age -– and that’s a sad tale,” says Faigenbaum.

There’s ample evidence that sports participation can have important benefits for kids, including improved physical health and emotional well-being. Hopefully, they’ll also learn life lessons in teamwork, discipline, leadership and time management. But kids can't profit from these benefits if they're quitting sports early on.

A new ball game
While parents may have spent much of their early childhoods riding bikes around the neighborhood, playing pick-up games of baseball or basketball with the local kids and maybe joining Little League, today’s youngsters often fall into two disparate groups: those who sit inside playing video games and those who participate in organized competitive sports like soccer, ice hockey and basketball.

A big difference today is that kids involved in sports play harder and younger than ever, says Steve Marshall, an assistant professor of epidemiology and orthopedics at the Injury Prevention Research Center at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. And with dreams of college scholarships and multi-million dollar professional contracts, the competition can get out of hand, he says.

“Youth sports have become about more than kids having fun," says Marshall. "Frankly it’s beginning to get out of control. It’s almost a national obsession.”

Certainly coaches who treat young athletes like military recruits can be a big problem. So can athletes who take the game too seriously and play when they’re injured or, as they enter the teen years, turn to performance-enhancing substances that they hear of their idols in the big leagues using.

Parents the prime culprits
But experts in the field mostly point to parents as the prime culprits in promoting a competition-crazed environment in youth sports.

"Parents tend to think everyone’s going to the Olympics,” says Patrick Mediate, a physical education teacher and coordinator of the strength and conditioning program at Greenwich High School in Greenwich, Conn.

Of course, many parents are a positive force, supporting their children and making sports participation possible by taking the time to drive kids to and from practice and games. But parents who live vicariously through their children can be problematic, experts say. It's one thing for kids to dream of Olympic gold medals or Super Bowl rings and to work toward those goals. But it's another matter if parents are pushing their kids to do something they don't want or pressuring them to succeed in a way that’s hurtful.

advertisement | ad info
Advertisement | ad info
Advertisement | ad info
.Marilyn Enmark, a youth soccer coach in Detroit, says she’s seen her share of overbearing parents.

Recently, one of her players, a 7-year-old boy, hit the boards during an indoor game and was holding his head. His father, a former soccer player himself, went over to the boy but rather than asking him how he was feeling, scolded him for playing poorly. A week later, his mother called him over after a play and she, too, sharply criticized him. “He was sobbing,” Enmark says.

Parents -- and coaches -- who push too hard too young, particularly when they emphasize winning above all else, can easily wipe out a child’s motivation to play, says Dr. Henry Goitz, chief of sports medicine at the Medical College of Ohio in Toledo.

“They may be preventing the next Michael Jordan from coming to be,” says Goitz, a team physician for the Toledo high schools and a former team doctor for the Detroit Lions. “They can take the heart out of a kid.”

But not all pushing is bad, says Michael Bergeron, an assistant professor of pediatrics at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. He acknowledges, however, that there's no good answer on where to draw the line.

“You need to know your child,” he says. If kids truly hate a sport, then let them quit. But maybe they just need some encouragement. Some 19- or 20-year-olds may wish their parents had pushed them more to stick with sports when they were younger rather than giving up, he adds.

Injury toll
Aside from the psychological pressures that young athletes may experience from intense training and competition, physical complaints are a growing concern, sports medicine specialists say.
One of the most comprehensive surveys to date, by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that from 1997 to 1999 sports and recreation-related injuries were more common nationwide than injuries from traffic accidents. Americans ages 5 to 24 were most likely to be treated for sports-related injuries by health professionals. Kids 5 to 14 had the highest injury rates of all -– 59.3 episodes per 1,000 people. That’s slightly higher than the rate for people 15 to 24 (56.4 per 1,000) but substantially greater than the rates for those 25 to 44 (21 per 1,000) and 45 and up (6.2 per 1,000).
A fifth of kids lost one or more school days a year because of their complaints. Strains and sprains accounted for the most injuries overall, followed by fractures. Among kids 5 to 14, bicycling was associated with the most injuries, followed by basketball, football, playground equipment and baseball or softball. In those 15 to 24, basketball and football were linked to the most injuries.
Greater sports participation, particularly among girls in recent decades, is one reason injuries appear to be rising, experts say. A study published last September in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that over the last 30 years in the area around Rochester, Minn., forearm fractures, many of them resulting from sports and recreation activities, increased 56 percent in girls and 32 percent in boys, mostly among kids in the preteen and early teen years. Also on the rise are knee injuries known as anterior cruciate ligament, or ACL, tears that are more likely to affect girls, often those who play basketball or soccer.
Another factor that contributes to sports injuries is the couch-potato culture where kids lounge around all summer watching TV, for instance, and then jump into a sport in the fall when they’re woefully out of shape. “The musculoskeletal systems of boys and girls may not be prepared for sports,” says Faigenbaum. “They’re an absolute set-up for injury.”
On the flip side, too much training can lead to overuse injuries such as "Little League elbow," which results from repetitive throws, and stress fractures.
advertisement | ad info Advertisement | ad infoAdvertisement | ad info.Metzl diagnosed a pelvic stress fracture in one 9-year-old girl who had been playing soccer two to three hours a day, five to six days a week. But in kids like her, diet could also be a contributing factor. Too much soda and not enough milk can weaken bones. So he now orders bone density tests on young athletes with curious stress fractures and tracks the kids over time.
Early specialization questioned
A big issue, many experts in the field say, is the push for kids to specialize in a single sport very early in life –- well before puberty.
“This has backfired in our faces,” Faigenbaum says. “It truly doesn’t work.”
Kids may hone certain skills in a particular sport with early, intense specialization, but they can also burn out emotionally and physically. And they may not necessarily be achieving the goal they or their parents hoped for -- becoming the best athlete they can be in that sport, he notes.
“When you play different sports, you use a variety of motor skills -– jumping, running, twisting –- that can transfer to a lot of sports,” Faigenbaum says. But if young kids focus on just one sport, they may not reap these benefits.
“There’s absolutely no evidence that says that if a [child] athlete plays just one sport that will guarantee success as a teen or adult,” he says, adding there’s actually more evidence that if they diversify they’ll play better. Ask most pro athletes what they were doing at age 10, he says, and most will say they were playing two to three sports, not just one.
Focusing on a single activity also puts all of a young athlete's eggs in one basket, says Metzl. If kids don’t try other sports, how do they know whether or not they might like those sports more -- or be better at them?
And even top-notch athletes can tire of their sport because of what it takes to win. At Greenwich High School, the boys' swim team program has been hugely successful, losing only one meet in the last 25 years. But just a handful of the athletes have gone on to swim in college, says Mediate.
“They have double practice sessions -- morning and night –- almost every day for 10 years,” he says. “So it does add up. It’s burnout.”
© 2010 msnbc.com Reprints
.

Problems In Youth Sports
Bookmarks this Article
Email Article to Friend
Tell a friend about this article by entering their email, your email, and an optional personal message.

Recipient Email:


Your Email:


Personal Message: (Optional)


Sending email...

FamilyResource.com respects your privacy, and does not store any email addresses entered in this form — Privacy Policy.


By: James White and Gerald Masterson, Ph.D.

Can participating in competitive sports at too young of an age have a negative effect on our children and their future in sports? Starting ages for youth in competitive sports have lowered dramatically in the past two decades. Andrew Ferguson (1999) estimated that 40 million children are involved in competitive sports. It's not just the numbers that are staggering, but the manner in which kids are playing. Children who get involved in organized competitive sports at a young age may find themselves tired of the game they once loved. Young athletes are becoming increasingly stressed because of the pressure they are getting from their parents and coaches. They are traveling further, playing more games, and spending less time just being kids (Ferguson).

Children in today's era find themselves with a variety of competitive sports to choose from at earlier ages. The Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) boys and girls basketball, baseball/softball, soccer, football, volleyball, start as young as nine, while Little League Baseball and softball can start as early as five with tee-ball. Pop Warner, which is the nation's oldest football organization, starts at five. The American Youth Soccer Organization (AYSO) has kids competing at the age of four. While winning may not be the focus of these leagues it can be the focus of the parents.

When considering sports participation one should take into account the developmental age as well as the chronological age of a child before competing. Paulo David, author of Human Rights in Youth Sport: A Critical Review of Children's Rights in Competitive Sports, found that children don't always understand the concept of competition until age of six or seven. Children under nine may be incapable of differentiating between the concept of effort and that of ability. This means that they believe winning is achieved by how hard they try and that losing means they did not trying hard enough (David).

Sports knowledge development in children at a young age is essential. In the Primary grades children should be taught the rules of games and the structure of the game. Training for these children should be informal and playful in nature (Slentz & Krogh). With little or no emphasis on wins or losses which can often leads to emotional distress and long term refusal to be involved in competitive sports. Sports should be designed to improve a child's self concept in the early years (Essa).

In the book Why Johnny Hates Sports?, the author Fred Engh states "that if kids are competitive at early ages, then they may not be trained in how to fail. If all the focus is on winning, kids may be scared to fail and make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the learning process and it's how one improves. Failures can result in success, if we are teaching kids to learn from mistakes. If kids are never allowed to fail and are yelled at, pulled out every time they do something wrong then we are training them to be afraid to shoot or try. They are not going to want the ball for fear of making a mistaken and being taking out or humiliated in front of their peers. Allowing children to try and fail diminishes their fear of their parents, coaches, peers, and of humiliation because they are encouraged to try (Engh).

Too much competition too early may cause burnout. The term "burnout" is a relatively new term with children in competitive sports. Burnout can be defined as "the athlete's natural response to chronic, ongoing stress." By age thirteen burnouts begin to manifest and children start quitting their given sports (Lawrence). Burnout in kids' sports can be caused by a "play at all costs" attitude by the parents and coaches, by overtraining and excessive travel.

The problem starts when the sport becomes more like a job than play. These coaches and parents believe that by playing all the time it will translate to winning and possible visibility and then scholarships. We believe that parents no doubt want what is best for their kids. But with this win and play at all costs there is mounting evidence parents are cheating to give their kids an edge. They even lie about their child's age to gain an advantage and get more exposure. Parents are looking to prepare their child for Division I athletic scholarships or a professional career.

To gain an advantage parents insist that their children practice and play year-round to insure they have the best skills necessary to compete and be a starter in high school and on their club teams. Training and traveling all year round takes its toll on children. One report, noted that forced participation in competitive youth sports by parents can constitute as a form of abuse by parents because they are taking the childhood from the child. They want their children to specialize.

A study done by America Sports Data Inc. found that, in youth organized sports, 69% of all parents want their children to play only one sport. If the child is between six and eight years old, 79% of those parents want their child to play only one sport. Of all the sports organization in 2004, 44% of the children stated they only wanted to play one sport (Maher). If the child and his or her parents want the child to participate in only one sport, than the coach is more than happy to accommodate. To avoid burnout Children should wait until high school before specializing in a sport. In the book by Joel Spring, Making Athletics a Positive Experience for Your Child: 101 Ways to be a Terrific Sports Parent, he explains that children are not even physically capable of handling competitive sports. Most young kids are not capable of handling vigorous practices or games that are required in specializing of a sport. If children don't specialize in sports at a young age, they will be better suited learning how to develop a variety of motor and athletic skills that transfer from one sport to another and can't be developed by specializing (Fish).

There is no doubt that youth sports have become a huge force in society. Today's forms of youth sports, which are competitive in nature, are hurting the future sports of involvement for many reasons.

First, the age and nature of youth sports begins at too early. Second, children are being burned-out of sports at a young age. Third, the specialization of sports has dramatically affected participation in other numerous sports and the development of transferable skills. Finally, children are being pressured by parents to participate early to gain an advantage over their peers. With these factors affecting our youth, the future of high school sports might be in jeopardy. The trend is still so young that we don't know the long term societal effects of early competition on future participants but many are quitting. We need to remember that these are just games and should be fun and enjoyable to those who participate in.

ReferencesFerguson, Andrew. (1999). Inside the Crazy Culture of Kids Sports. Time. 1-8.
David, Paulo. (2004). Human Rights in Youth Sport: A Critical Review of Children's Rights in Competitive Sports. Nashville, TN: Rutledge.
Essa, Eva.(2002). Introduction to Early Childhood Education, 4E. Stamford, CT. Thomson Delmar Learning.
Slentz, K & Krogh, S. (2001). Early Childhood Development and its Variations. Florence, KY. Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.
Engh, Fred. (2002). Why Johnny Hates Sports. Garden City Park, NY. Square One.
Lawrence, Jean. (2004). Stress of Youth Sports. WebMD Feature. 1-2.
Wolff, Rick. (1997). Good Sports: The Concerned Parents Guide to Competitive Youth Sports, 2E. Champaign, IL. Sports Publishing, LLC.
Taylor, Jim. (2002). Positive Pushing: How to Raise a Successful and Happy Child. Hyperion.
Susani, D & Stewart, C. (2007). Specialization in Sport: How Early?...How Necessary?. Retrieved on February 12, 2007, from website: http://www.coachesinfo.com/article/7/
Maher, Charles. (2005). School Sports Psychology: Perspectives, Programs and Procedures. Binghamton, NY. Haworth Press.
Fish, Joel. (2003). 101 Ways to be a Terrific Sports Parent: Making Athletics a Positive Experience for Your Child. New York, NY. Simon & Schuster, Inc.
Votano, Paul. (2000). The Trouble With Youth Sports: What the Problems are and How to Solve Them. Philadelphia, PA. Xlibris Corporation.

ABSTRACT
Top
Abstract
Introduction
References

Participation in organized sports provides an opportunity for young people to increase their physical activity and develop physical and social skills. However, when the demands and expectations of organized sports exceed the maturation and readiness of the participant, the positive aspects of participation can be negated. The nature of parental or adult involvement can also influence the degree to which participation in organized sports is a positive experience for preadolescents. This updates a previous policy statement on athletics for preadolescents and incorporates guidelines for sports participation for preschool children. Recommendations are offered on how pediatricians can help determine a child's readiness to participate, how risks can be minimized, and how child-oriented goals can be maximized.

INTRODUCTION
Top
Abstract
Introduction
References

Participation in organized sports can have physical and social benefits for children. However, the younger the participant, the greater the concern about safety and benefits. The involvement of preadolescents in organized sports is a relatively recent phenomenon. In the early 20th century, physical activity was a more regular part of life for the average child. Sports and games provided an additional outlet for physical activity and were characterized by play that was generally spontaneous, unstructured, and without adult involvement. Participation in such sports and games allowed for development of motor skills, social interaction, creativity, and enjoyment for participants.

During the latter part of the 20th century, "free play" or unstructured games primarily gave way to organized sports. The starting age for organized sports programs has also evolved to the point that infant and preschool training programs are now available for many sports. Organization of sports has potential benefits of coaching, supervision, safety rules, and proper equipment but can also create demands and expectations that exceed the readiness and capabilities of young participants. Organization can also shift the focus to goals that are not necessarily child oriented. Clearly, the nature of the organization can determine if it has a positive or negative influence.

This statement is an update to a previous policy statement on athletics for preadolescents1 and incorporates guidelines for sports participation for preschool children.2 Recommendations are made on how pediatricians can help determine a child's readiness to participate in organized sports, how risks can be minimized, and how child-oriented goals can be maximized.

ORGANIZED SPORTS PROGRAMS: LIMITATIONS AND RISKS

The effects of organized sports participation on growth and maturation have come under question, as have the effects of growth and maturation on the ability to participate in sports. Because children are beginning to train and compete at earlier ages, there is increasing concern about potential negative effects on growth and maturation. Reports of gymnasts and divers with short stature or ballet dancers with lean body types or late menarche have contributed to such concerns. Despite such reports, it is unclear if these characteristics were a result of intensive training or other factors, such as dietary practices, psychological and emotional stress, or selection bias for the sport.3

The effects of immaturity on sports participation are more obvious. When the demands of a sport exceed a child's cognitive and physical development, the child may develop feelings of failure and frustration. Even with coaches available to teach rules and skills of a sport, children may not be ready to learn or understand what is being taught. Furthermore, many coaches are not equipped to deal with the needs or abilities of children. Basic motor skills, such as throwing, catching, kicking, and hitting a ball, do not develop sooner simply as a result of introducing them to children at an earlier age.4 Teaching or expecting these skills to develop before children are developmentally ready is more likely to cause frustration than long-term success in the sport.5 Because most youth sports coaches are volunteers with little or no formal training in child development, they cannot be expected to correctly match demands of a sport with a child's readiness to participate. Educational programs are available for youth sports coaches, but most coaches do not participate. Nonetheless, coaches may still try to teach what often cannot be learned and blame resulting failures on shortcomings of athletes or themselves.

Parental or adult supervision of children's activity is usually considered to be desirable. However, in organized sports, inappropriate or overzealous parental or adult influences can have negative effects. Adults' involvement in children's sports activities may bring goals or outcome measures that are not oriented toward young participants. Tournaments, all-star teams, most valuable player awards, trophies, and awards banquets are by-products of adult influences. Despite good intentions, increased involvement of adults does not necessarily enhance the child athlete's enjoyment. The familiar image of a parent imploring their 5-year-old to "catch the ball," "kick the ball," or "run faster" is a reminder of how adult encouragement can have discouraging effects.

ORGANIZED SPORTS PROGRAMS: BENEFITS

In contrast to unstructured or free play, participation in organized sports provides a greater opportunity to develop rules specifically designed for health and safety. Organization can allow for the establishment of developmentally sound criteria for determining readiness to play. Organization can also allow for a fair process in choosing teams,6 matching competitors,7 and enforcing rules. Rules specifically targeted at younger athletes can reduce injuries. Recommendations have been made to limit dangerous practices, such as headfirst sliding in baseball8 and body checking in hockey.9 Safety accommodations associated with organized youth sports can also include smaller playing fields, shorter contest times, pitch counts for Little League pitchers, softer baseballs, matching opponents by weight in youth football, and adjusting play for extreme climatic conditions.10 The availability of qualified coaches in organized sports can be a key factor in providing safety and a positive experience.

In this regard, the effects of organization provide positive environments for young participants. Unfortunately, not all youth sports participants have access to all known safety measures. Furthermore, a great deal remains to be learned about safety in youth sports. Additional resources are needed to study injury prevention and ensure that all participants will benefit from existing safety measures. The prospects for additional development and implementation of safety measures are far greater for organized sports than for unstructured free play.

Despite many potential benefits of organization, there is no consensus as to the overall value of organized sports for preadolescents. A return to the days of free play has been suggested as one means to eliminate negative aspects of organized sports. Unfortunately, the days when children had the time, opportunity, or inclination to play in neighborhoods or local parks have passed. Today, there are more demands on a young person's time, more options for free time, diminished requirements for regular physical activity, and fewer opportunities for free play. School-based physical education programs have also been reduced throughout the years and can no longer be relied on to provide adequate levels of healthy activity.11

Regular physical activity can help reduce the risk of many adult health problems, including diabetes, obesity, and heart disease.12 However, with less time dedicated to free play and school physical education programs, the result may be lower activity levels and lower levels of fitness for children. There is a greater need to protect opportunities for structured and unstructured physical activity for children. Organized sports may not provide all physical activity needs but can be a viable means to increase activity levels in children and, hopefully, lead to the adoption of active lifestyles as adults.

Organized Sports Programs: Optimizing the
Benefit-to-Risk Ratio

If organized sports are going to be safe, healthy, and beneficial for children and preadolescents, there must be reasonable goals for participation and appropriate strategies to attain these goals. Reasonable goals for children and preadolescents participating in organized sports include acquisition of basic motor skills, increasing physical activity levels, learning social skills necessary to work as a team, learning good sportsmanship, and having fun.13

Organized sports sessions should be tailored to match the developmental level of participants. Most preschool children have short attention spans and are easily distracted; therefore, exercise sessions should be short and emphasize playfulness, experimentation, and exploration of a wide variety of movement experiences. A reasonable format would consist of no longer than 15 to 20 minutes of structured activity combined with 30 minutes of free play. Concentration will be maximized if instructional sessions take place in a setting with minimal distraction. Instructing younger children using a show-and-tell format with physical demonstration may be more effective than with verbal instruction.

For children and preadolescents, factors such as fun, success, variety, freedom, family participation, peer support, and enthusiastic leadership encourage and maintain participation, whereas others such as failure, embarrassment, competition, boredom, regimentation, and injuries discourage subsequent participation.14

Pediatricians, as experts in child development, can help parents and coaches determine readiness of a child to participate in organized sports. Readiness is often defined relative to the demands of the sport. Because different sports and even the same sport may vary widely with respect to demands and expectations, pediatricians must understand these demands to help determine if they are appropriate for the physical and cognitive maturation of participants. Preparticipation examinations are typically not mandated until junior high and high school. However, annual examinations for younger children afford an opportunity to promote physical activity and address issues of readiness as they apply to organized sports.

Pediatricians can further advocate safe sports participation by promoting better education and training of youth sports coaches. Standards for coaching competency are available, and certification for youth sports coaches should address these competencies.15 In addition, pediatricians can work with sports administrators and coaches within their community to share relevant information on child development, injury assessment, first aid, and injury prevention. Pediatricians can also take an active role in developing safety programs while ensuring that existing safety measures are observed. A pediatrician may be one of the few adults who can objectively determine when pressures and expectations of organized sports become excessive for any individual or group. Finally, pediatricians can serve as role models for appropriate sideline behavior and can help parents and other adults remember the reasons children want to participate.

SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS

Organized sports for children and preadolescents provide an opportunity for increased physical activity and an opportunity to learn sports and team skills in an environment where risks of participation can potentially be controlled. Unfortunately, when demands and expectations of the sport exceed the maturation or readiness of the participant, benefits of participation are offset. The shift from child-oriented goals to adult-oriented goals can further negate positive aspects of organized sports.

To optimize the safety and benefits of organized sports for children and preadolescents and to preserve this valuable opportunity for young people to increase their physical activity levels, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends the following:


1. Organized sports programs for preadolescents should complement, not replace, the regular physical activity that is a part of free play, child-organized games, recreational sports, and physical education programs in the schools. Regular physical activity should be encouraged for all children whether they participate in organized sports or not.

2. Pediatricians are encouraged to help assess developmental readiness and medical suitability for children and preadolescents to participate in organized sports and assist in matching a child's physical, social, and cognitive maturity with appropriate sports activities.

3. Pediatricians can take an active role in youth sports organizations by educating coaches about developmental and safety issues, monitoring the health and safety of children involved in organized sports, and advising committees on rules and safety.

4. Pediatricians are encouraged to take an active role in identifying and preserving goals of sports that best serve young athletes.

5. Additional research and resources are needed to:

a a. determine the optimal time for children to begin participating in organized sports;

b b. identify safe and effective training strategies for growing and developing athletes;

c c. educate youth sports coaches about unique needs and characteristics of young athletes; and

d d. develop effective injury prevention strategies.

Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness, 2000-2001

Reginald L. Washington, MD, Chairperson

David T. Bernhardt, MD

Jorge Gomez, MD

Miriam D. Johnson, MD

Thomas J. Martin, MD

Thomas W. Rowland, MD

Eric Small, MD

Liaisons

Claire LeBlanc, MD

Canadian Pediatric Society

Carl Krein, AT, PT

National Athletic Trainers Association

Robert Malina, PhD

Institute for the Study of Youth Sports

Judith C. Young, PhD

National Association for Sport and Physical Education

Section Liaison

Frederick E. Reed, MD

Section on Orthopaedics

CONSULTANTS

Steven Anderson, MD

Stephen Bolduc, MD

Oded Bar-Or, MD

Staff

Heather Newland

Committee on School Health, 2000-2001

Howard L. Taras, MD, Chairperson

David A. Cimino, MD

Jane W. McGrath, MD

Robert D. Murray, MD

Wayne A. Yankus, MD

Thomas L. Young, MD

Liaisons

Missy Fleming, PhD

American Medical Association

Maureen Glendon, RNCS, MSN, CRNP

National Association of Pediatric Nurse Practitioners

Lois Harrison-Jones, EdD

American Association of School Administrators

Jerald L. Newberry, MEd, Executive Director

National Education Association, Health Information Network

Evan Pattishall III, MD

American School Health Association

Mary Vernon, MD, MPH

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Linda Wolfe, RN, BSN, MEd, CSN

National Association of School Nurses

Staff

Su Li, MPA

FOOTNOTES

The recommendations in this statement do not indicate an exclusive course of treatment or serve as a standard of medical care. Variations, taking into account individual circumstances, may be appropriate.





REFERENCES
Top
Abstract
Introduction
References
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Organized athletics for preadolescent children. Pediatrics 1989; 84:583 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Fitness, activity, and sports participation in the preschool child. Pediatrics 1992; 90:1002-1004 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
Malina RM Physical growth and biological maturation of young athletes. Exerc Sports Sci Rev 1994; 22:389-433
Branta C, Haubenstricker J, Seefeldt V Age changes in motor skills during childhood and adolescence. Exerc Sports Sci Rev 1984; 12:467-520
Stryer B, Toffler IR, Lapchick R A developmental overview of child and youth sports in society. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin North Am 1998; 7:697-724 [Medline]
Kamm RL A developmental and psychoeducational approach to reducing conflict and abuse in Little League and youth sports. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin North Am 1998; 7:891-918 [Medline]
Roemmich JN, Rogol A Physiology of growth and development: its relationship to performance in the young athlete. Clin Sports Med 1995; 14:483-503 [Medline]
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Risk of injury from baseball and softball in children. Pediatrics 2000; 107:782-784 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Safety in youth ice hockey: the effects of body checking. Pediatrics 2000; 105:657-658 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Climatic heat stress and the exercising child. Pediatrics 2000; 106:158-159 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Sports Medicine and Fitness Physical fitness and the schools. Pediatrics 2000; 105:1156-1157 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
US Department of Health and Human Services. Physical Activity and Health: A Report of the Surgeon General. Atlanta, GA: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; 1996
Martens R, Seefeldt V, eds. Guidelines for Children's Sports. Reston, VA: National Association for Sport and Physical Education; 1979:1-47
Rowland TW. Clinical approaches to the sedentary child. In: Exercise and Children's Health. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics Books; 1990:259-274
National Association for Sport and Physical Education. National Standards for Athletic Coaches: Quality Coaches, Quality Sports. Dubuque, IA: Kendall/Hunt Publishing Co; 1995:1-124

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pediatrics (ISSN 0031 4005). Copyright ©2001 by the American Academy of Pediatrics

Seriously Sean, you are killing the desire to read an learn from the forum by bombarding us with information. A simple link to the article would suffice.

No one wants to read these lengthy posts.

Seriously Will,

Provide me a link, an article, and or data that supports your position. I have tried to find one - not many out there.

Sean

Truth hurts sometimes - I am trying to find information to make an objective decision.

Why not support the opportunity. If it doesn't work it won't be renewed. There is nothing lost by trying something new and letting the market determine whether or not it should exist. If no one attends and the weight classes are empty we will go back to drawing board. I really don't think that will be the case but I don't think it is right for us to decide what is best for the kids, that is the parents job.

The costs are not that great. I managed the middle school state tournament last year and we only had 220 wrestlers but made a profit even incurring some first year costs. If 150 wrestlers pay 20 then that is $3,000. That will cover the arena and officials. Cost is absolutely NOT an issue.

What doesn't support my position Sean? They are wrestling right now on those weekends? They drive all the way to Ottawa two weeks later and wrestle. I am trying to move the date back, provide a safer drive, put the event in a better facility, and hopefully a bunch of these kids will attend 4A state the night before to support high school wrestling. Your arguement doesn't hold water because the parents and wrestlers are already doing it. You want to eliminate 6U from wrestling period. That is a whole different arguement. I could care less about t-ball, tiddly winks, badmitton, soccer, football, hockey, or curling. This is a wrestling forum. The numbers speak for themselves. The kids buy the cards and wrestle in the tournaments. If 6U's are wrestling 8U at state we are going to fix that. If 40lbs isn't attended this year then we will remove it as a 8U weight class. We need data not speculation. I am not going to google the internet all day looking for PHD's to back up a proposal that already makes common sense.

Sean, you have NO arguement against this tournament proposal. You are arguing against having 6U kids involved in sports at all. That is a different debate for a different time.

Cost should not be the issue!

Seriously Will,

Provide me a link, an article, and or data that supports your position. I have tried to find one - not many out there.

Sean

As easily as you googled "anti kids sports", I supposed you could google "pro kids sports"??

What do you want me to prove? Why do I need to find an article by some gurus that states points countering your barrage? What does that prove? Missouri has a 6U Kids wrestling state. Does that help? There are 6U age groups at National Wrestling events all over the country and people attend, does that count? What do you want? What are you against? What is your proposal?

The attendance and participation speaks for itself. You are trying to create a different debate. Come to the state body meeting and propose "NO 6U TOURNAMENTS SHOULD BE WRESTLED AND NO 6U KIDS SHOULD BE BUYING USA CARDS." and see where you get to with that. The proposal is solid and the market will speak for itself.

I think Ottawa's numbers prove that they will come.Put it more central in the state and it can only grow.
It's up to the parents to contemplate the morals of weather a 5 or 6 year old should wrestle a State tourney.

Right on! I think I said that somewhere in the barrage of thesis papers.

It is up to the clubs to vote on - Yes or NO 6 & under state tournament series. It is not up to the parents unless they start their own club, get sanctioned and pay their fees as a USAWKS
sanctioned organization. I believe it is great to get kids exposed (a few tournaments during novice and then they are done)to the sport at 5 and 6 years old, teach them the fundementals, let them grow into the sport and wait for their opportunity to go to a state tournament. If all the decisions were strictly left up to the parents to decide then there wouldn't be any need for coaches, club directors and the state body. If the parents want to make a big change they had better be willing to spend a several hundred hours a year helping out with tournaments, practice, and going to meetings. I can except either vote - I just do not believe we are doing the "Right Thing" for the sport or the kids long term.

I can't fathom the central KS wind breaking even on this one. (The Ottawa tourney & it's inclusiveness---allowing all who sign up have a good idea)....when it comes to the bottom $.

Are you certain there will be 80 6 U kids weighing 80# and more across KS that make it to STATE after wrestling in FULL brackets in Districts to completely fill the next 5 weight classes @ 80 & above?

Another miconstrued notion battling this wind is that families with 6 & U's are going to spend more $$ while entering a H.S. State Wrestling tournament Series of 4 A studs when their parents could save a load of $ by taking them to their nearest Chuckie Cheese. Besides what do most 6 & U's do at most tournaments? (Run & Play with their Game boys)...

This motion has been poorly substantiated by any verifiable data that is supportive of the details.

This vote should be NO by all means let these kids wrestle Novice Championship. Their day will come if they stick it out & don't think they're sitting on top of the World as a KS State Champ @ 6U in the 90# division amongst perhaps 2 others in his State Bracket.

K, i been reading all these posts, minus the googled articles!
im trying to understand what the argument is here!

is the vote for NO 6&U wrestlers at all? or is the vote for the restructuring of the 6&U state championship that is ALREADY going on?

I like the proposal of making the 6&U state championship more centrally located to draw more kids, And a Bigger Venue and shortening the season for 6&U that way they dont get burnt out. and they would have to qualify thru 1 round to make it to state,, should be nice practice for when they have to qualify thru 2 rounds in 8&U.

i really dont see the Negative about this?? except for Ottawa losing out on hosting this tournament.. which they have done an Awesome Job everytime i been there for it!!

Benelli
Member

Registered: January, 08 2007
Posts: 85
Loc: S.E. Kansas As easily as you googled "anti kids sports", I supposed you could google "pro kids sports"??

"Anti kids sports"

That is why I have been doing it for over 25 years.

please correct me if im wrong, but my understanding was that Ottawa stepped up and started this 6U state championship when no one else either wanted to or was willing to. In my experience, they put on a great tourny with some space issues. The last time I was there was 2007, my son's last year at 6U and they weren't running both gyms at the time. I believe Rick opened the second gym the following year. The brackets were huge and i can tell you that they youngsters in our club were excited to be going. It may make for a long season but the coaches and parents should be structuring practice and involvement for kids that age, as i have been learning over the years with my son, to keep their interest in the sport over the course of that season. I know a couple of years ago that there was a competing state tournament with Ottawa. How did that go over? I guess my question is, does this topic come up every year for vote? Every other year? Why not make the state series 7&8 year olds and let Ottatwa continue to run the 6U state tournament? Why would we vote this tournament away from a club that wants to do it? The bracket sizes show that people are willing to drive to attend this tournament.

Wasn't meant to be an insult. Maybe I should rephrase-

As easy as it was to find negative articles, I would imagine it would be just as easy to find positive articles.

Don't forget the other 75% (kids and parents of current 7-18 and year olds) and coaches who have been around for a long time who make the opportunites possible for 6 & unders to be introduced to the sport and develop them. That 75% plus group is the backbone of USAWKS - who have put in thousands of hours to develop kids from one age group to the next. There are also many, many people that no longer have kids involved and still give of their knowledge and time. How many people have particpated in a 6 & under state championship(any type) in their lifetime - young and old? How many people can look back and say -boy I wish there was a state championship when I was 5 or 6 years old?

Great statement bloomy6.

One last discussion on this proposal.

#1. Ottawa stepped up and allowed "all that want to go" attendance at this age...they build comraderie from within their little group of 40/50 kid bracket as well as the parents---no seeding---just show up & wrestle the "luck of the draw". If we were to have a District in each District and then a State -- I can just see the teeth & growling @ the Seeding Meeting & the "who entered what wt. & placing they received within their District" so the logistics can be set up for a placing @ State. Do we realistically think we'll have FULL 16 man brackets in each wt. class in 18 or 19 wt. groups? Counting on 80 kids sailing thru the State finals that weigh 80 lbs plus @ 5 & 6 years old. Previous reviews of National Tournaments have identified very FEW 5 & 6 year olds weigh 125 that wrestle! Where are the District 2 folks that propose this motion?

2. The 5 & 6 year olds have less than 2 years of Wrestling! Whats wrong with simply keeping them @ Novice level Championships & let them State Place @ 7 & 8?

3. Monetarily it doesn't make much revenue sense & during 'the economic times' most kids I'm sure that get 4th place @ District will decide that a 16 man bracket may yet be too big for them when they've been wrestling <5 man RR's thru the season & forego "State" and go play at Chuckie Cheese or get a new Wii game for the cost of travelling. And yet we think that the family will go watch 4A State Championships costing major $$$ perhaps not knowing anyone wrestling--these parents @ this age are interested in little Eddy!


These little guys & girls are just not ready for the Intensity that is relative to the need & gratification of the parents @ this age. NOVICE, they need to learn & have FUN without PRESSURE!/. Perhaps on another note if little Eddy is the Stud take him to a National competition & let him [color:#FFCC00]SHINE[color]!

--The research clarifies that 5 & 6 y.o.'s are not mature enough for "competitive sports"--yet each child matures at their own pace emotionally & physically. I can't find anything PRO without stating they hope the kid doesn't fold to "pressure" & this relates to a 6 y.o. soccer phenom.

Another Fact: We are trying to grow the sport long term.

If children are started in COMPETITVE sport before they are emotionally or physically ready they are likely to experience disappointment and stress and may give up playing altogether.


Here is a request for a link instead of a long document.

http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=301&id=1872


Sport for children

Contents
• Importance of sport
• Starting sport
• Mixed sex sport
• Sport safety
• What parents can do
• Resources and further reading
• References


Starting sport
The National Junior Sport Policy recommends that children should generally not play organized competitive sport until 8-10 years.
If children are started in competitive sport before they are emotionally or physically ready they are likely to experience disappointment and stress and may give up playing altogether.

This battle was fought and lost several years ago. The number of card buyers in this age group increases every year. The total number of wrestlers is growing as well. More and more tournaments are adding 6U. Sean, give it up. If you don't want your 6U's to wrestle then don't take them but the fight you are picking has been over with for some time. The best thing we can do now is educate parents and coaches in hopes that they reduce the stress for this age group. I nicely ask you to refrain from introducing this lost cause to the post that is just the facts about the proposal. If you want to continue your philosophical crusade lets keep it right here, on your thread.

Will please stay in your own topic. I am sorry no one is allowed to debate you when you have an idea. I do not totally agree with you on the topic of one or two public schools for all of Western Kansas either. You want kids to car pool or bus from 3 hours one way because "numbers or low enrollemnt" in agricultural regions of Kansas - don't those kids deserve an equal opportunity for education also. Kids 5 & 6 years old have to take music first before they can be in the band. So it is all about numbers and dollars and not the development (physically, emotionally, technically, etc) of the entire age group. I believe about 20-25% (maximum - 500 kids and their parents) of that age group have participated in late season tournaments. I would have to get historic numbers - maybe you can provide that in your presentation this weekend. It is not a dead topic - it is a proposal that is going to be voted on by clubs at the state body meeting October 31, 2010 in Salina.

Sean McCarthy

Will,

I do not mind being called:

phil•o•soph•i•cal
rationally or sensibly calm, patient, or composed.

I am not a big name caller of others but I appreciate the compliment.




Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley
Member

Registered: September, 28 2001
Posts: 2323
Loc: DeSoto, KS This battle was fought and lost several years ago. The number of card buyers in this age group increases every year. The total number of wrestlers is growing as well. More and more tournaments are adding 6U. Sean, give it up. If you don't want your 6U's to wrestle then don't take them but the fight you are picking has been over with for some time. The best thing we can do now is educate parents and coaches in hopes that they reduce the stress for this age group. I nicely ask you to refrain from introducing this lost cause to the post that is just the facts about the proposal. If you want to continue your philosophical crusade lets keep it right here, on your thread.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

I openly welcome debate that is "ON TOPIC". Please debate why you should vote no to the new proposal. Why is it NOT an improvement to the situation we have today? Voting NO to this proposal is NOT going to stop 6U kids from wrestling and putting themselves into "pressure" situations. Your debate is off target.

By the way, I never said I wanted kids to bus or car pool three hours one way. I said there are prime opportunities for school consolidations that should be explored because it simply does NOT make sense to have 228 school systems educating the same number of children that 17 school systems educate. Talk about twisting my words. Are you a democrat? I hope you are not related to Bill Maher?

Please debate why you should vote no to the new proposal.

Does there have to be a 6 year old State Championship to provide opportunities? Please no politics or religion.

There is and will continue to be an unofficial event that is not the answer. Why wouldn't you want to improve that situation for our customers instead of playing like an ostrich?

And the "unofficial" tournament should reduce or limit the size of brackets A,B,C,D,E,F.......... The state should not sanction the tournament if the brackets are to huge for 6&U 8&U etc.The number of matches for kids in a day should be regulated. Round Robin format gets more kids at that age more matches 3 to 5 per day. Or if the brackets are to big - single elimination, no wrestle backs, there you have it 6 & Under State Champion. The kids that go 2 and out and get a bad draw - wouldn't round robin be "better" for more opportuniities to succeed. Don't call it ABC brackets - call it blue, white, red.

Smokey's BBQ in Wellsville. Awesome BCS ranking - Burnt End Dinner - rank 10. I will be in Wellsville again today for the D-1 meeting. I highly recommend Smokey's BBQ. Maybe Will and I can do lunch there. There was even a few pictures of Wellsville HIGH SCHOOL wrestlers on the podium for KSHSAA High School State Tournament on the wall in Smokey's BBQ - just above the booth we sat in. As we ate this wonderful lunch - I asked one of my former HS wrestlers HS placer and college wrestler) and his Dad (now he has grand kids wrestling in Kansas) how important would it have been or will it be for Kansas to have a 6 & Under State tournament for the former wrestler, or his cousins, or grand son in wrestling. The college student/former HS wrestler said "I wish I had started later - are you really serious". The Dad/Grandpa had a comment - it was a bit philisophical - but it was along the same lines as "are you really serious" - I asked them both how they would vote if they were club directors and/or coaches. It was NO. So there we were 3 people with at least 60 combined years in the wrestling world - and 3 Not in favor. It was a great lunch.

Maybe it was because of the former wrestler's parents and coaches.

I have told you over and over that I tend to agree that maybe it is too early but we don't get to make that call. USA Wrestling allows you to buy a card when you are in that age group. EVERY single open tournament offers 6U, national tournaments offer 6U, and there is 6U unofficial state tournament that is overcrowded with brackets that have too many competitors and the tournament lasts way too long. Your stance and opinion have been duly noted, documented, explained, backed up by Phd's and experts. You now have 60 years of experience saying that we don't need 6U wrestling. We get it.

The problem is that train left the station a LONG time ago. Get in front of it and you are going to get run over. More than 2,000 kids in that age group purchased USA cards from our state last year. It is our single largest age group! So the solution is a compromise. Create a series with small tournaments for this age group only. Limit the state bracket size to 16. Start the tournaments at 9:30 and be done just after lunch.

So, if your parents all tell you that they like the idea and you vote no what does that say?

That will really be the issue. Old school club directors who want to say that they know what is better for parent's kids. Move forward because if you try to stand still you are going to get passed by. If the market demands the event we should listen and make it a positive experience. Kids at every age level are going to quit the sport. There is NO holy grail answer to that issue.

I can see that we could debate this issue until the cows come home and you are going to be stubborn and unyielding. I post something and you basically ignore what the proposal is all about and continue your crusade to attempt to make Club Directors the "We know whats best" police. Please listen to the idea and understand the merit it has and set aside your bias for this age group. The proposal is a compromise and I don't read any attempt on your part to understand the real issues and find some middle ground. You are a great guy and a passionate supporter of kids wrestling. This cannot be questioned. That being said, lets look at present day STA HS and see where the failure to adapt to the changes that are taking place all around you has gotten this program. Sean, being able to adapt and change are critical to the success of ANY business, program, team, group, cause, etc. Think outside of the box and figure out new ways and new ideas to bring greater good, listen to hard facts and be ready to accept that yesterday is gone and today is a DIFFERENT day.

Eventhough you already said the tourney would break even, I think we could save some money by awarding Taco Tico coupons instead of medals. Gentzler can print up coupons in varying degrees of value:

Champion-All you can eat Taco Tico, plus a roll of toilet paper
Runnerup-Half dozen combo burritos, plus a roll of toilet paper
3rd-4 sanchos, half a roll of toilet paper
4th-2 sanchos, and the other half of the 3rd place roll of toilet paper
5th-2 tacos, 6 squares of toilet paper
6th-1 taco, no toilet paper required at the restaurant, you should be able to make it home before needing any........

What is the big change of heart Will. Here is one of your post from 2007. Are you planning on hosting the 6 & under district?
You mention declining card sales???

Cokeley
Member

Registered: September, 28 2001
Posts: 2332
Loc: DeSoto, KS Why do we have to stay away from 32 and 64 men brackets for six and unders? The periods are short, the kids don't exert themselves enough to be exhausted, six year olds have more energy than most parents can possibly harness, etc. Focus on the problems:

1. The season is FAR too long for six year olds.
2. There is not enough mat space now so we can't add an age group at state.
3. There aren't enough hotel rooms for the state tournament in its current status so we can't add an age group.
4. The pool of qualified officials is being tapped by the existing tournament.

Right now we should be focusing our attention on the decline in overall card sales. Why are the numbers dropping? Could it be because parents expect too much out of kids who are not ready for one-on-one competition? Who knows. I do know it is insane to think it is feasible to add six and unders to the existing format.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
January 7, 2007

Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

“I agree with Furches and McCarthy. I am not a big proponent of putting too much emphasis at too young of an age”

Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Not really seeing a change of heart here. This post is about adding 6U to our current format which we would not be under this proposal. This would also end the season 2-4 weeks earlier for those 6U who currently are wrestling in the 8U division fro the qualifying series.

Published on August 10, 2009 by JonnieWall in Sports
Competitive sports can be a positive tool in the development of children. However without careful guidance by the adults involved a child can suffer life long problems.

Comments (2)|33 Liked It
It is that time of once again when children are preparing for another school year. While backpacks, pencils and notebooks are being purchased, many children are also buying sports attire and equipment. Competitive sports are now as much a part of back to school as parent’s night and school shopping. Each year parents, educators and childhood specialist question if the amount of emphasis put on competitive sports is a positive or a negative for a child’s emotional, physical and mental development.

Emotional

Negative: Competitive sports put a great deal of pressure on children to win and to be the best. It reinforces the winner vs. loser idea on a daily basis. Competitive sports also quickly separates those who can from those who can’t. A child who is less athletic than his or her peers will learn the emotional implications of not being as good. A low self-esteem early on in life can have an impact on an individual into adulthood.

Positive: When a child participates in competitive sports he/she learns the value of teamwork. They learn at as early age that many obstacles in life do not have to be weathered alone. They learn to rely and depend on other for their successes. Learning at an early age to trust others allows for a higher level of trust in adulthood.

Mental
Read more in Sports
« The Steroid Question
Fitness Training: Skipping »

Negative: To often the competitive sport takes precedence over a child’s education. A talented athlete may discover that being an athlete is all the adults around him/her expect. They may find they no longer have to worry about learning or grades, as long as they perform athletically at a high level they will be successful in school. They learn to challenge themselves physically yet never mentally

Positive: Studies show that physical activity stimulates the brain. A child who gets regular physical activity is more likely to grasp and retain new ideas. When a child participates in sports their problems solving skills increase along with their ability to read and react quickly to situations.
Physical

Negative: Young bodies are still in the growing process. When a child participates in competitive sports the repetitive movement required by many sports can cause long-term injuries. Joints, ligaments and muscles are still growing well into a child’s high school years. Early overuse can cause joint and tendon problems as well as early life arthritis as well as back and neck problems.

Positive: We live in a society that struggles with obesity. Studies have shown that adults who were active as child are far less likely to suffer from obesity or other over weight issues. Competitive sports give children the opportunity to move. Children no longer know how or are not allowed to simply play. Children who are not involved with competitive sports are more likely to be sedative. Children who competitive in competitive sports learn how to use and appreciate their bodies, they learn the benefits of being fit, limber and strong.
Competitive sports can be a positive addition to a child’s early development. However, as with all things relating to children it is the responsibility of the adults overseeing the child’s physical, mental and emotional growth to insure the safety and well being of the child.


Read more: http://sportales.com/sports/the-pros-and-cons-of-competitive-sports-on-youth/#ixzz12f6QChU7

I am trying to educate our parents, state body, coaches, myself, and others who will vote on this proposal.

Children And
Competitive Sports
Social Study
BY
Jon Patrick Orum

http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/fabe/acs...niv%20Paper.pdf

These are the age & weights that USA Wrestling our National Governing Body used for Folk Style Nationals in the Spring of 2010 - in Cedar Falls Iowa. That is a fact - so lets stick to the facts on this topic please. I do believe the toungest competitor was 7 years old. There were no 4, 5 or 6 year olds allowed last year or any of the previous years.
And guess what 6 & unders nationwide - a portion of the card fees go to the Colorado Springs Headquarters and the Olympic Training Center.

Divisions


Bantam: (Born 2002-2003) 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 75+ [15 LB Maximum Difference] (7 & 8 year olds)

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Intermediate: (Born 2000-2001) 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 87, 95, 103, 112, 120, 120+ [20 LB Maximum Difference]

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Novice: (Born 1998-1999) 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 112, 120, 130, 140, 140+ [25 LB Maximum Difference]

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:30, 1:30
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Schoolboy/girl: (Born 1996-1997) 70, 77, 84, 91, 98, 105, 112, 120, 128, 136, 144, 152, 160, 175, 190, 210, 265

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:30, 1:30
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Cadet (Born 1994-1995) 84, 91, 98, 105, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285

Championship Bracket Periods 2:00, 2:00, 2:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 2:00, 2:00

Junior (Born September 1, 1990 & after, plus enrolled in Grades 9-12) 98, 105, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285

This is old card membership fee distribution from 2007/08
Not exactly $75,000 goes to our state organization it looks like about 1/3 (33.3%) of our fees stays in state.

$30 membership fee for the 07/08 year was allocated would be as follows:
• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office



• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office
These are rough averages, since there are other items of revenue and expenses that go through our organization, but it should give a general picture of where the money is going.

The annual financial report is available on this website (www.usawks.com/financials08.pdf). A general summary of how the $30 membership fee for the 07/08 year was allocated would be as follows:
• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office
The fact that everyone needs to understand is that a USA Wrestling Card is only $20 for a coach and $21 for a competitor. The additional $15 and $14 go to USA Kansas wrestling. In effect, you are paying for a USA card and a Kansas card but it is delivered as one. Given this, we will pay,

Who will pay for what? $14 is $28,000. The tournament budget will be under $5,000. You are grasping at straws Smoke. I told you that if the STATE tournent loses money I would pay for it. Enough said. The districts will be up to the tournament managers. If managed properly they will be profitable.

Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

“I agree with Furches and McCarthy. I am not a big proponent of putting too much emphasis at too young of an age”

Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Over time, more and more 6U wrestlers have joined our sport. I am merely adapting to change. Without change there can be no improvement. If you think "It ain't broken, then don't fix it" then you are standing still and getting passed by. I do agree, still, that too much emphasis can be placed on WINNING. If you make it about fun and the experience then it will be a positive experience.

Don't get all philosophical on me know. Why are we proposing a stand alone 6 & under tournament? Or why 6, 8, & 10 together. Won't we (the statebody) have the same problems/questions - but only by a larger group - "How come our kids can not wrestle a entire month longer with the 12, 14, 16 & up? That will be considered not equal opportunities. Maybe each age group should have a stand alone tournament. We could call them 6A, 8A, 10A, 12A 14A and 15A&over. Or Should it be 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A, 10A, 11A, 12A, 13A, 14A, 15A, etc. I still want historical numbers on Kansas Kids age groups and I am waiting. I would like to also know overall state numbers and participants by age group for every USA Wrestling state and which states offer a six and under stand alone state tournament. I prefer to be called Sean or Smokeycabin not BIG A.

Sean McCarthy

If YOU (Smokey Sean) want to know these numbers no one is stopping you from calling Colorado Springs or every State. I gave you examples of states who host a 6U State tournament. I have given you so much information and there is a proposal that in many ways improves our current situation. You will NEVER change your mind. Your post regarding how you operate your club (STA) spelled it all out. It is the Smokey Way or the highway. This is my last counter to your attacks. Our club is voting yes. The proposal is NOT perfect but the pros outweigh the cons. It is a start and a foundation that can be built on. Good luck finding the information you want. I do not nor have I ever had what you are looking for.

Will Cokeley
State Freestyle/Greco Director(SFGD)
1225C E. 23rd St.
Lawrence KS 66046


(708) 267-6615 [cell]
Willcokeley@gmail.com

Mr. SFGD you are one of our top dogs in the state organization now. Along with your title - comes responsibilties. And if I - "Big A" or whatever you want to call me - Who happens to be a club coach in Kansas (most likely longer than you) has a question about a proposal that you wrote I would think you would be a little more diplomatic in your responses - Mr. State Freestyle/Greco Director. Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter.

Respectively Yours,

Sean McCarthy

Will, why do you want to eliminate the 6 and unders from competeing with the 8 and under kids? There have been several who can compete(Kale Pappan). If you want to say that it is because they all pay the same amount of money THEN TREAT THEM ALL EQUAL!!!!! Make them part of the REAL STATE TOURNEY or leave it alone!!!!

"Good luck finding the information you want. I do not nor have I ever had what you are looking for. "
_________________________
Will Cokeley (SFGD)
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Mr. SFGD,

I can not believe that you do not have access to the numbers that I am looking for - you are a numbers guy. You want positive change for the sport - you have made some good and bad suggestions for Kansas wrestling. I am aways looking to improve Kansas wrestling as well. I would like some answers to your current proposal and had a small data request about it - I just want some transparency. Someone has to keep an eye on the fox when the farmer is not harvesting the eggs from the chicken house.

Sean McCarthy
STA Wrestling

I don't understand why there is a decision to make. This will shorten the 6U season for the majority of the kids. With the majority not wrestling the remaining 6U season will automaically be shortened. I wish the season would have been this short when Jake was in 6U. He was ready to be done in Feb. but we kept him in it mid-March just to finish with "State". Preach all you want about being the parent and knowing when to stop, but it is not always that easy. This helps the decision process by taking it away.

The reason so many 6U drop off is because you have to buy a USA card to practice. Alot of these kids buy a card, practice a few weeks or a few months and decide that this sport is not for them. This is a rough sport and it is not for everyone. I don't think they drop out at 8U because they were pushed as 6U. They drop out because it is a Tough Sport, and the majority of kids are not tough.

This is good for the sport, I will be voting for it.

O.k. agree with Chad on the majority issue. But what about those who are?? Why not let them have their moment?? Look at the numbers even if 1/2 drop off you still have plenty wanting their shot!!! My son made it at 6u in the 8u division got butt kicked but loved being part of the, "BIG BOY CLUB". That's what brings them back for years to come,,,a SHOT at being in Topeka!! Just some food for thought.

http://salem.momslikeme.com/members/JournalActions.aspx?g=503488&m=947756&source=stream_rail

215 posts
by 1son on Oct 12, 2010 at 02:07 PM

Be sure to read the second paragraph. Amazing!

Appropriate Age for Competitive Sports

My son is only 8 and I cant says has competed in any "true competitive" sports. He has played basball for 2 years, basketball for 2 years and in his 3rd year of football (tackle 2years). While we are finding that most leagues are not competitive yet he tends to make them way himself. He is always asking about winning and losig and if we dont tell him he figures it out. We have talked to him after each game for all sports about what needs to improve on both teams and what each team and him did right. Always end it on the positives.

OH I was wrong I guess he did do Karate semi competitive from age 4 to 6.5 but we dropped that after he started other sports and had a very bad experience at a tournament. He was sparing and in a level with older and high belt kids then him - doing very well until they had some issues with him competing on the high lever and tried to pull him out (because he was winning) - director came over and told them to let him continue as he was doing ok and when he left the "judges" started to make bad and incorrect calls that cost him the win. No I am not a biased mom on this I have video to prove it. We were told after "based on this video he won" however we are not going to change the calls or overturn any of the placings. Left a very bad taste for my child as he came away crying saying that "they called a hit and he didnt touch me and i hit him but they ignored it. Why Mom" what could we say ????

At the request of: SFGD

I have only included portions of research and some articles and the links to the entire article to help educate parents, coaches,
and administrators. Anyone who cares how we develope kids from recreational to competitive athletes may read this inormation. There is no doubt my goal is and has been to grow the sport of USA Kansas Wrestling and on to KSHSAA HS wrestling. These 4,5 & 6 year kids - their time will come soon enough for a shot at a State Title. They have 7-10 more years before they reach High School - So some of them will have a shot at 11 to 12 folkstyle state titles if they start the state championship series at 7.

I have provided information below if you would like to be informed. People say who cares - I do!


Foundations of sport and exercise psychology
http://books.google.com/books?id=5oVkn20...rts&f=false

By Robert Stephen Weinberg, Daniel Gould


Part VII Starts on Page 514


Facilitating Psychological Growth and Development






Athletic & Psychological Perspectives for Young Players
http://www.trenton.k12.nj.us/Columbus/coyne/athletic.htm

Posted on Wednesday, February 12 @ 17:28:05 EST
From: Childhood To Champion Athlete, by Tudor Bompa

The first experience in a sport is critical for the ongoing development of any athlete. If the experience is positive, the child will likely continue participating. If the experience is negative, the young participant may drop out of the sport, and lose interest in physical activity.

Many children now have their first sporting experience in organized competition. Children, as young as four years of age, often participate in structured leagues, or Mini Soccer tournaments where there are formalized rules and referees, official team kits, and winning is the primary objective.

There is a great deal of support, from a variety of adults, for organized competitive sports for children. Many individuals believe that it is important for children to experience winning and losing, and that organized sports provide a forum for children to develop values and skills that will help them later in life. Although there is some merit to this perspective, there are many psychological demands on children, which can have an adverse effect on their growth and development, and may prevent potential world champions from optimally developing their talent.

This article will address some of the controversial issues surrounding highly organized competitive sports programs for children.


PUTTING WINNING INTO PERSPECTIVE
Children love to compete!

This is a known fact for anyone in child education, including physical education and sports. The influence of sports on their daily lives is profound. Children are greatly influenced by their coach, who often may become their role model, as well as by top athletes in their sport, who are their heroes. Therefore, the influence sports have on children is not to be taken lightly.

Children are very athletically minded, and as such, many of them participate in sports. According to recent studies on the topic, 45% of 10 year olds participate in sports! However, as they grow older, almost half of them drop out of sports (at the age of 18 only 26% stay active).

One of the most frequently asked questions about children and sport is:

"To be a world champion, is it important to win a lot during childhood?" The answer is, 'NO'.

To expect potential world champions to be winners from an early age, is like expecting a business to be extremely profitable from its first month of operation.

Similarly to business, if a solid foundation is not developed during early years, the chances of being successful for a long period of time are drastically reduced. If winning is emphasized, there is much more likelihood that a solid foundation will not be developed, and that children will experience a variety of problems, both physical and psychological. Top

THE PROBLEMS WITH WINNING
Discrimination Against Late Maturing Children

what is wrong with you smoke? dang i listened to you for the first few pages, but whe you got here to page five... "your not helping them, your hurting them!"

Are we losing kids at a faster rate on the older end even though our numbers show we are gaining them on the younger end.

I did a quick look at the 2000 & 2009 District 1 State tournament series.

At the District 1 tournament in 2000 we had 164 participants
in that same series in 2009 we had 147 in the 14 and under division.

For the same time periods 2000 & 2009 at the District 1 tournament in the 16 & under division we had 145 participants in 2000 and we had 115 in 2009.

The number of brackets in 2000 14 & U had 23 and in 2009 14 & Under had 23 brackets

In 2000 16 & under had 20 brackets and in 2009 it had 18 brackets.

Note: In 2000 the 14 & U 70 pound bracket had no wrestlers and the 16 & U 95 pound bracket had no wrestlers.

I guess I just do not understand it if we are adding more kids at younger ages but our numbers are declining on the upper end.

Will and I both want the sport to grow - we just disagree on how to grow the sport.

Total state USA Kanas Kids Wrestlers in 2002 & 2009

These are the years I could find on totals. I excluded 2009/2010 because we adder over 16 years old last year.

2009 - 8,861
2002 - 7,623

Therein lies the question. How much does burnout, due to 6U participation, contribute to the declining 15 and over divison? In my opinion there are several other reasons that have a greater impact.

I think more kids are wrestling other "tougher" National tournaments in the 14 and 16 division, instead of State. Another factor is that society as a whole is not as tough. If it is hard or the kid is not winning, the parents and the kids just quit.

Oh good SFGD has got his public relations department involved. Chief you are confusing recreational 6 & Under particiaption and learning vs competitve and a state championship series. I am still waiting on the simple data request.

Amazing. I can't even comment on this thread without being marginalized as his PR department. That's one way to deflect criticism. Adding the state series to the question doesn't change the answer.

True!

That data is anything but simple. The subjectivity of it alone will make your head spin.

One more factor in the decline of the older groups. Kids have other interests at that age. Girls, other sports, relaxing because they just finished the High School Season, vacations with the family, or maybe a kids title is just not that inviting to them. Burn out from wrestling when you are 5 and 6 will not change these other factors.

The data is coming in Sean. Write these down!

Thanks Chief - it is coming in. I am up to Missouri 11 states that do not offer a 6 & Under state tournament and only 4 states do offer 6 & under state. Some states have a tournament with no qualifiers and they call it a state tournament/open tournaments.

Arizona Wrestler
No 6 & Under
The Arizona chapter of USA Wrestling is starting a Folkstyle wrestling league starting the 1st weekend in October-January. The schedule will include at least ten folkstyle tournaments around the state and a state tournament. The age groups will include Bantam-Schoolboy. During October the age groups will also include Cadets & Juniors. In January, we will have a AZ USA Folkstyle State tournament for age groups Bantam-Schoolboy.


California USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under at State
Bantam | Bantam Girls | Intermediate | Intermediate Girls | Novice | Novice Girls | Middle School | Middle School Girls


Colorado
Colorado USA Wrestling
No 6 & Undert They follow USA Wrestling National Weights


Connecticut USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State tournament
• 2/28/2010 - State Championships
o Middle School
o Novice
o Intermediate
Florida Amateur Wrestling Assn
FLORIDA TOURNAMENTS: Feature ALL AGE GROUPS unless otherwise noted on the event posting. Pee-Wee (5-6 years old), Bantam 7-8 years old, Intermediate (9-10 years old), Novice (11-12 years old), Schoolboy-girl (13-14 years old), Cadet (15-16 years old), Junior (grades 9-12th), Junior Women (grades 9-12th), Senior-Open (18 years of age and older).

AGE DIVISIONS: 6yrs & Under, 8 yrs and Under, 10yrs & Under, 12yrs & Under, 14yrs & Under, High School Div. and Open


Georgia USA Wrestling
Georgia Does Offer 6 & Under State

Illinois
Illinois USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State – They follow USA Wrestling Age & Weight


Indiana USA Wrestling

Yes 6 & Under State
2010 Folkstyle State Finals Results
Pee-Wee/Novice
Pee-Wee (77) - Bantam (210) - Intermediate (263) - Novice (293)
Total Participants = 863


Iowa Wrestling Federation
No 6 & Under
Iowa Kids State Folkstyle Championship
March 27-28, 2010


2010 AAU KIDS STATE PLACEWINNERS

A GROUP (3RD & 4TH GRADE)

B GROUP (5TH & 6TH GRADE)

C GROUP (7TH & 8TH GRADE)



Louisiana USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State

Maine Amateur Wrestling Alliance
No 6 & Under State
Massachusetts USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State

Michigan USA Wrestling
Open Tournament No Qualifiers
One State Wrestling Tournament for all of the 7 different youth, grade school and Jr high school leagues/associations in Michigan. No memberships required. No qualifiers required. Open to any Michigan resident.


Minnesota USA Wrestling
Yes 6 & Under State Tournament

Missouri
Missouri USA Wrestling
State Brackets

No 6 & Under
8 & Under Brackets
10 & Under Brackets
12 & Under Brackets
14 & Under Brackets
Note: Missouri has an open tournament in Saint Joe


New Mexico Junior Wrestling


New York Wrestling
North Carolina USA Wrestling
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Oklahoma Amateur Wrestling
Oklahoma High School Wrestling
Pennsylvania Youth Wrestling
Rhode Island Wrestling Assn
South Carolina Wrestling
Texas USA Wrestling
Tennessee Wrestling Federation
Virginia Wrestling
Washington State Wrestler
West Virginia
Wisconsin Wrestling

Out of this list of 30 states 20 (66%) states do not offer a 6 & under state. The other 10 states that do offer a 6 & under state tournament - for the most part they are an open tournament - anyone can sign up there is no qualifying series. If you add Kansas in that is 21 out of 31. I need to look up New Jersey, Ohio and a few other states still.



Arizona Wrestler
No 6 & Under
The Arizona chapter of USA Wrestling is starting a Folkstyle wrestling league starting the 1st weekend in October-January. The schedule will include at least ten folkstyle tournaments around the state and a state tournament. The age groups will include Bantam-Schoolboy. During October the age groups will also include Cadets & Juniors. In January, we will have a AZ USA Folkstyle State tournament for age groups Bantam-Schoolboy.


California USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under at State
Bantam | Bantam Girls | Intermediate | Intermediate Girls | Novice | Novice Girls | Middle School | Middle School Girls


Colorado
Colorado USA Wrestling
No 6 & Undert They follow USA Wrestling National Weights


Connecticut USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State tournament
• 2/28/2010 - State Championships
o Middle School
o Novice
o Intermediate
Florida Amateur Wrestling Assn
FLORIDA TOURNAMENTS: Feature ALL AGE GROUPS unless otherwise noted on the event posting. Pee-Wee (5-6 years old), Bantam 7-8 years old, Intermediate (9-10 years old), Novice (11-12 years old), Schoolboy-girl (13-14 years old), Cadet (15-16 years old), Junior (grades 9-12th), Junior Women (grades 9-12th), Senior-Open (18 years of age and older).

AGE DIVISIONS: 6yrs & Under, 8 yrs and Under, 10yrs & Under, 12yrs & Under, 14yrs & Under, High School Div. and Open


Georgia USA Wrestling
Georgia Does Offer 6 & Under State

Illinois
Illinois USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State – They follow USA Wrestling Age & Weight


Indiana USA Wrestling

Yes 6 & Under State
2010 Folkstyle State Finals Results
Pee-Wee/Novice
Pee-Wee (77) - Bantam (210) - Intermediate (263) - Novice (293)
Total Participants = 863


Iowa Wrestling Federation
No 6 & Under
Iowa Kids State Folkstyle Championship
March 27-28, 2010


2010 AAU KIDS STATE PLACEWINNERS

A GROUP (3RD & 4TH GRADE)

B GROUP (5TH & 6TH GRADE)

C GROUP (7TH & 8TH GRADE)



Louisiana USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State

Maine Amateur Wrestling Alliance
No 6 & Under State
Massachusetts USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State

Michigan USA Wrestling
Open Tournament No Qualifiers
One State Wrestling Tournament for all of the 7 different youth, grade school and Jr high school leagues/associations in Michigan. No memberships required. No qualifiers required. Open to any Michigan resident.


Minnesota USA Wrestling
Yes 6 & Under State Tournament

Missouri
Missouri USA Wrestling
State Brackets

No 6 & Under
8 & Under Brackets
10 & Under Brackets
12 & Under Brackets
14 & Under Brackets
Note: Missouri has an open tournament in Saint Joe

Nebraska USA Wrestling
Nebraska – Does offer a 6 & Under PreK-K division – No qualifier (Open tournament)


New Mexico Junior Wrestling
No 6 & Under State Tournament


New York Wrestling
No 6 & Under State Tournament
Kids Grades 5-8
JV 9-10
High School

North Carolina USA Wrestling -
Yes 6 & Under Tournament – Open tournament
No Qualifier for state tournament
Pairings Done for youth – just grouped

North Dakota
No 6 & Under State Tournament

Oklahoma
Oklahoma Amateur Wrestling
Yes 6 & Under State Tournament – Not sure if their Regional’s are a qualifier or if it is an open tournament.


Pennsylvania Youth Wrestling
No 6 & Under State Tournament


Rhode Island Wrestling Assn
No 6 & Under State


South Carolina Wrestling
No 6 & Under State Tournament

Texas USA Wrestling
No 6 & Under State Tournament

Tennessee Wrestling Federation
No 6 & Under State Tournament





Virginia Wrestling - They offer an open state tournament with grades K-3rd in one division in the fall.
Weights by Division:
K – 3rd weights: 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80 and over 80.

http://www.virginiawrestling.com/


Washington State Yes 6 & Under Open Tournament – No Qualifier
AGE GROUPS & WEIGHTS: January 1, 2011, a 2-Pound weight allowance applies to all wrestlers in the 15, 18, & OPEN DIVISION ONLY.
(Example: 83 lbs can weigh 85 lbs) (18 & Under Division for K-12 RMN Events: If you're a sophomore in high school & wrestle on the high school team, JV or Varsity, you should enter the high school 18 & Under - division)
6 & Under – Wrestlers born in 2004 or later
37, 40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 55, 61, 74, Max
8 & Under – Wrestlers born in 2002 or 2003
42, 46, 50, 54, 58, 62, 66, 70, 74, 78, 87 MAX
10 & Under – Wrestlers born in 2000 or 2001
49,53,57,61,65,69,73,77,81,85,89,100,113 MAX
12 & Under – Wrestlers born in 1998 or 1999 (62 lbs will be added if we get enough entrees)
66, 70, 74, 78, 82, 86, 90, 98, 106, 114, 122, 130, 146, 165, 186 Max
15 & Under – (No sophomore high school wrestlers allowed inthe 15 & Under : I f you're a sophomoreyou must wrestle in the 18&Under)
15&UnderDivision Wrestlers born in 1995, 1996 or1997
78,83, 88, 95,102,109,116,123,130,137,144,151,158,172,186,200,250 Max
18 & Under – Born in 1992, 1993 or 1994
103,112, 119,125,130,135,140,145,152,160,171,189,215,285Max

Open Division – Born in 1991 or earlier (If you are not in high school and are not eligible to wrestle due to age, you must enter the Open Division)
125, 133, 141, 149, 157, 165, 174, 184, 197, 215, 285Max




West Virginia
No 6 & Under – Bantam – youngest age group

Wisconsin Wrestling

No 6 & Under State - Bantam – youngest age group

2010 Junior Dual Freestyle Results -

1) - Illinois -No 6 & Under State
2) - Iowa - No 6 & Under State
3) - Ohio - No 6 & Under State Tournament
4) - Wisconsin - No 6 & Under State
5) - Minnesota - Yes 6 & Under State (I believe they have qualifiers)
6) - Michigan - Yes 6 & Under State - Open Tournament
7) - New Jersey - No 6 & Under State Tournament
8) - Kansas - No 6 & Under State

Cadet Duals 2010

1) Minnesota - Yes 6 & under State
(I believe they have qualifiers)
2) Illinois - No 6 & Under State
3) Pennsylvannia - No 6 & Under State
4) Iowa - No 6 & Under State
5) Missouri - No 6 & Under State
6) Michigan - Yes 6 & Under State - Open tournament no qualifiers
7) New Jersey - No 6 & Under State Tournament
8) California - No 6 & under State

Add Ohio, New Jersey and Kansas to the list above and that makes 23 out of 33 states on the list. Again it is important to remember that many of the states that do offer a 6 & under state division it is a 1 tournament open tournament and they do not have qualifers. I did not cherry pick which states do or do not offer a 6 & under state. I did some research from the list of states on the Kansas website - and I'll check on the other states not listed.

New Jersey – No 6 & Under State tournament –
http://www.usawnj.org/2010.htm
Ohio – http://secure.ohioathletics.com/ogs10/results09.lasso
No six and under state tournament

Division I

Weight classes 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 75

________________________________________
Division II
Weight classes 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 85, 105

________________________________________
Division III
Weight classes 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 115, 140

________________________________________
Division IV
Weight classes 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 160

Schoolboy/Girl Freestyle Results
Team Score
Freestyle Championships Results
1st Place - Pennsylvania Blue - No 6 & Under STate
2nd Place - Team Washington - Yes 6 & Under no Qualifier Open tournament
3rd Place - Minnesota Gold - Yes 6 & Under they have a qualifier
4th Place - Team Missouri - No 6 & Under State
5th Place - Team Wisconsin - No 6 & Under State
6th Place - Team New Jersey - No 6 & Unde State
7th Place - Indiana Gold - Yes 6 & Under State - I believe they have a qualifier
8th Place - Illinois - No six and Under State

This data does not prove one way or the other if 6U State is a good idea or not. All it is stating is that they don't have it. Kansas does not have it yet. Does that mean we are making a step in the direction of progress if we vote for it? Only one way to find out, vote it in and try it.

There are alot of 6U wrestlers in the states that you are using for data. Look at the Tulsa entries from the past. Everyone of those States is represented in the 6U ranks at this National Tournament.

Voting for 6U state is a step in the right direction.

Only 12 (10%) out of 120 high school seniors that have verbally committed to a colleges next year are from states that offer a 6 & under state championship. Just collecting data and trying to be objective. If it were the other way around 110 out of 120 HS seniors were from states that offer 6 & under then the proposal may have some teeth. Or even 40 out of 120.

Smokey posts:
Schoolboy/Girl Freestyle Results
Team Score
Freestyle Championships Results
1st Place - Pennsylvania Blue - No 6 & Under STate
2nd Place - Team Washington - Yes 6 & Under no Qualifier Open tournament
3rd Place - Minnesota Gold - Yes 6 & Under they have a qualifier
4th Place - Team Missouri - No 6 & Under State
5th Place - Team Wisconsin - No 6 & Under State
6th Place - Team New Jersey - No 6 & Unde State
7th Place - Indiana Gold - Yes 6 & Under State - I believe they have a qualifier
8th Place - Illinois - No six and Under State








http://missouriusawrestling.org/09-10/Results/6U-Rookie/BracketMain.htm

Missouri has 6&U State

Have you double checked the rest of your data?

What is Rookie State? Does it have a qualifier?
I am glad you are back - I have missed your discussions.
The entire proposal has some positive suggestions - I was trying to get this type of information from the proposer so I can make a educated vote. I asked you nicely to provide some data and you told me to get it myself. Most states have some form of 6 & under wrestling - that is not the point of contention - it is how we develope those 6 year olds. There are some 4 year olds that their parents pay for a USA card - why do they have to wrestle six year olds? Don't get me going on that topic 4 year olds.

SFGD,

Could you explain the rookie state (novice ??) vs regular state (open??) and 2 different locations. I am not trying to cherry pick data - I am trying to find some answers to questions I have about your proposal. Would a Novice State Tournament make sense in Kansas - I guess that depends on the numbers, age divisions, locations, etc. Well that is not on the agenda - so I will stay on topic.

http://www.missouriusawrestling.org/08-09/2009State/Results/2009State12&UnderBrackets.pdf Hearns Center - probably has a qualifier ( Not Rookie State)

http://www.missouriusawrestling.org/08-09/2009RookieState/Results/12&UnderBrackets.pdf - In Saint Joe – Open Novice Tournament Basicly -
Missouri USA Wrestling (I could not find a 6 & under at this event - which is the big dance in Missouri).
2007 State Folkstyle Championship
March 23-25, 2007

8 & Under State Results
40 lbs
1ST ANTHONY PISCIOTTA JR KNIGHTS (JRK)
2ND PRESTON HERRON JOPLIN TAKEDOWN (JOP)

45 lbs
1ST WESTON DIBLASI TEAM CENTRAL-PH (TCW)
2ND MAX ROARK SENECA (SEN)
3RD SHELDON COLLINGS TEAM CENTRAL-SW (TCS)
4TH BROCK DAVIS COLUMBIA (COL)
5TH JOSEPH CHANDRA LEXINGTON (LEX)
6TH HAYDEN HAMLIN KIRKSVILLE (KVL)

Smokeycabin, your data is indicative of insight of "intensive wrestling states" that can validate that having a 6 & U State Qualifying series and tournament does not inhibit their State from creating or nurturing "growth" in the Sport. Thank you for your review of data.

Variables of the # of wrestlers & the "end of season #" can be misrepresentative of the "true number of 6 & U's" that are still participating even after 3 weeks of practice (2' USAW/liability/insurance requirements for clubs). Therefore 2,000 wrestlers may not be a valid number come February 2011. Again, these children are Novice or as Missouri calls them Rookie --- presently we have those needs engaged. Not ALL weights @ Ottawa have > 36 wrestlers as well as @ the Novice Series in Derby.

This proposal needs to be further studied rather than "RUSHED" to vote! Voting NO on this proposal and acquiring factual data can allow time to make a more appropriate decision on this proposition.

Last year we "rushed" to the vote of allowing older HS'rs to participate in State.....we should have had a sharp & dramatic increase in the numbers when we had classes that weren't coinciding with HS wt. classes---we gave HS'rs ample opportunity to acquire a State title @ 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155, 160 etc. --- this opportunity made it much easier to "place in State" yet so few HS wrestlers took advantage of it! I am excited to watch the HS State Series this year as it will resemble a "Grand State".

Or it could be they just have so many more wrestlers that they are going to naturally come out on top in any competition regardless of if they have 6U state or not?
Why is it our sport is so obsessed about how anything effects our final outcome instead of what the kids might be experiencing right now? Why does it always have to be about whether we produce enough olympians or college wrestlers etc. etc.? Why can't it be about what the 6U kids would enjoy without considering if they might want to wrestle in the Olympics later on? You don't hear any other sport that I am aware of saying, "we aren't producing enough kids at this upper competition".
Do the right thing for the kids today and tomorrow will take care of itself!

There will be NO "Grand State", it gives older wrestlers a chance to continue doing what they love to do, WRESTLE. The Elite will be at Elite tournaments going on that same weekend. High School division was a good thing to vote in last year. 6U is a good thing to vote in this year.

perhaps Sportsfan because New England wrestlers wrestle year round and the proximity between the states is very small. (MD, NJ, NY, MA, PA etc.). They also get into high priced training oppportunities that seem to easily availableand near their door. Reality justifies the double digit greater than 10 Division I Wrestling programs alone in PA, as well as D II & D III schools.

My bad forgot about HS Nationals/Virginia Beach no wonder we didn't grow in phenomenal numbers last year!

Would like to see the old Folkstyle camp return @ K-State---the middle ages on up had a blast at a very reasonable priced camp. Wrestling mats in Bramlage was a great sight to see! Perhaps having a yearly Kansas Kids Folkstyle Camp Retreat & Blast could increase our Kansas Kids "stay power"?! Freestyle/Greco camp was still in June in preparing for Southern Plains & Fargo.

Altogether, we have what we have in place, it seems to work. Why have 6 year olds "qualify" yet not have a "seeding" like the State Qualifiers do and then a State. Of which we're anticipating approx. 1/4 (80) 5 & 6 year olds here in the state of Kansas are wrestling 80 lbs and more. Why give them "the same" State hardware (6) placings when they are 5 & 6 year olds? I truly can count on both my hands the # of State placers that quit the sport before the age of 10 because they already had achieved a state championship or placing by the time they were in 3rd grade so they went onto BB..............We need to examine retention!

You will have to explain to me what any of that means and how it is related to the subject at hand.


Our club already has, and it had nothing to do with participating in a 6U State tournament or not.

Originally Posted By: in it to win it
We need to examine retention!

Our club already has, and it had nothing to do with participating in a 6U State tournament or not.

You will have to explain to me what any of that means and how it is related to the subject at hand.

It means a State tournament is NOT a consideration for retention, one way or another. I don't believe, and I don't think anyone has claimed that a State tournament will improve retention. Instead, the proponents have simply said the 6U kids are entitled to it for various reasons. At the same time, it's silly to think it will somehow hurt retention!

I am not a proponent per say for the 6U state tournament, but I do not believe we should mandate to people they can't do it by not allowing it to be added. If there is enough interest add it. If you don't want to go don't go, but if you do you should have that option.

I will say I do not think it helps in a wrestlers progress for High school to wrestle aggressively at 5 and 6, but if you do and it's your kid you should have that right. Or if you just want to do it because you and your kid think it's fun, knock your self out.

My only advise would be to not put too much pressure or significance on 6u wrestling. It should be fun!

Nice post Mike.

Has anyone established that, as a state, we have a retention problem for sure? That might make for some interesting "data". Before we starting trying to fix a problem, we should first know if a problem exists.

This 6 under deal should be a parents and kids decision. I don't think that the 6 unders that pay the same club fees as everyone else should be told that their season is over a month earlier. If you want retention in this sport make it fun for all kids. Games at practice joking at practice, get rid of the Nazi camp attitudes and have fun. Kids join wrestling for fun not college scholarships or highschool state titles ( for fun ). Kansas competition season is from dec to march that is 4 months. Oklahoma competition season is from October to February 5 months. Leave the season alone let the little guys do what they want and if your adding them to state let them go to state with the rest of their teammates.

Also

Also do not prohibit 6 unders that choose to wrestle up in age to 8 under. Their are some little guys that just have it and realize that so let them bump up and get some good wrestling in.

Mike pirl

Below is our parent organization where we get our insurance from as a big group. Then there are State Associations who can carry out the National organizations Mission, Vision & Values. These guys make the rules when you buy a USA Wrestling Card. The parents have to follow the National and State Association - rules.


USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling
Our Mission, Vision & Values

USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling in the United States and, as such, is its representative to the United States Olympic Committee. Simply, USA Wrestling is the central organization that coordinates amateur wrestling programs in the nation and works to create interest and participation in these programs.

USA Wrestling has more than 160,000 members. These members include athletes of all ages, coaches, officials, parents and fans striving together to strengthen the sport. Each year, USA Wrestling charters over 3000 wrestling clubs and sanctions over 1600 local, state, regional and national competitions.

Mission: USA Wrestling, guided by the Olympic Spirit, provides quality opportunities for its members to achieve their full human and athletic potential.

Vision: USA Wrestling will strive to be the worlds best sports organization.

Values
• Responsibility - Fulfilling all functions, tasks, duties and assignments with trust and credibility on behalf of USA Wrestling by honoring promises and pledges.
• Integrity - Being true to self and the mission of USA Wrestling, while discerning right from wrong and acting on it.
• Dedication - Dedication to carrying out the mission and goals of USA Wrestling with the highest degree of sacrifice and discipline.
• Honesty - Being truthful and upright with people and issues in furthering the mission of USA Wrestling.
• Accountability - Providing answers and reasons to others for actions and behaviors intended to support the mission of USA Wrestling.
• Respect - Recognizing the absolute dignity in every human being, with a sense of compassion, caring and concern for the well-being of other people.


USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling

2010 AGE DIVISIONS and WEIGHT CLASSES
http://themat.com/forms/Weights.pdf

Bylaws of USA Wrestling
http://www.themat.com/forms/Bylaws.pdf

Article IX talks about State Associations

Where are those ages and weight classes specifically in the USA by-laws? They aren't!

You can't have it both ways. If they have their own division why would you let them wrestle up? None of the other age divisions are allowed to do this.

Let's see...Some want the 6U to wrestle in the big show and be able to wrestle in 8U. Others don't want 6U to have a division or a state tournament. We have far left. We have far right. This proposal is right in the middle. Sounds like a good proposal. Vote YES!!!!

Simply stated alot of people in Kansas want that feel good every kid wins kinda thing. I am sorry but there are just not that many kids out there that need to bump up because of no competition except in the 6 and under group. What I mean about the feel good stuff is (27) brackets in each weight class at tournaments. I believe in 1 bracket 1 winner. If your novice go to novice tournaments if your open and losing practice harder.

Mike Pirl

Beeson. I vote yes if they get tp join us in Topeka and those 6 unders that choose can skip 6 under and go 8 under. You got some boys on your team that exemplify what I am talking about with the 6 unders.

Mike pirl

We simply do not have the room to add them to the state tournament in Topeka and if you give them the option to bump up you would have to give this opportunity to all. There are elite wrestlers at all age groups that could compete if they bumped up. This proposal is good middle ground. My vote is yes.

We don't have the room for kids that practice with the club everyday all year long but we do have room for the highschoolers that practice wig the club for two weeks. Seems backwards to me.

Mike Pirl

We don't have the room for kids that practice with the club everyday all year long but we do have room for the highschoolers that practice wig the club for two weeks. Seems backwards to me.

Mike Pirl

What are the parents who think they need to bump up from 6U to 8U hoping to acoomplish by doing so? Just curious...

I know that some 6 year olds have the talent To be wrestling the 8 unders competitively. Now that being the case I think that it says something about the parents that want to move their kids up and have harder matches instead of just walking through the 6 under division. We all know that there are the instant naturals in this sport and those that need more time. So I just honk the accomplishment would be to give some more 6 unders a shot at winning and growing.

Mike pir

What does it prove if a 6U can wrestle 8U competitively? For every "instant talent" there are 99 regular kids. I really don't think there will be any long term gain or loss to any 6U wrestler's potential if they wrestle within their age group, for the state tournament series, just like everyone else does. If they are dominating then make them work on different aspects of wrestling. Single legs, double legs, duck under, high c, cut the other wrestler, work on tilts, work on reversals, work on escapes, use it as a learning opportunity. Bump them up in open tournaments, take them to bigger tournaments, but even the most talented 6U will not be handicapped by wrestling inferior competition at this age for the state tournament series. Before you know it he will be a FR in high school on the mat with a senior and you will get to see how he does against older, more experienced competition.

Just so I can understand this correctly. Work on different moves and cut him so that we can totally humiliate the other wrestlers. I never stated that there was any longterm achievement for them to wrestle up I said it gives other kids a chance to win and grow. I also never said that they would be handicapped in any way but since you brought it up don't you travel the country to get the best competition you can for your kids. I know that I do win or lose.

I say have a novice state with 6-8-10-12 under and keep state as it is. Two years of experience and under. If you wrestle novice state you can't wrestle regular state. 6 unders can skip it and wrestle up if they want to.

Mike Pirl

There is no formal proposal for a OFFICIAL Novice State. We are working on clarifying a definition for NOVICE. If you felt so strongly about your stance why didn't you write up a proposal and submit it to the Executive Director as the Bylaws state?

The current proposal to be voted on may not be perfect but it is definitely offers some opportunity for some positive changes to the existing situation.

Being tech falled is not humiliating, it is a loss and just another learning experience. More time on the mat is better for both unless the coach/dad ridicules his wrestler after the match. Teach your wrestler to find positive in every match.

I don't know if I can stress enough that it is important to teach your kids how to fall in love with the sport not winning.

I can gaurantee that my kid loves the sport. Winning and losing are part of this sport and also need to be addressed. How has there been no clarification or definition for novice wrestling? I'm no expert but 2 years and under with the stipulation that if you place in an open tournament with a full 8 man bracket you novice eligibility is over. Also if you win 3 novice tournaments with 8 man brackets your novice eligibility is over. Finally if neither of those things happen at the beginning of you third year your novice eligibility is over.

Mike Pirl

I forgot to answer the proposal thing. I did not write a proposal to submit to anyone. I never thought about writing a proposal to anyone but I guess if you get involved in a conversation on this forum you re supposed to write a proposal to someone. Just because I have an opinion does not mean I have got to propose it to someone. I was just carrying on a conversation. Did you ever think that being crass to everyone that doesn't have the exact same idea as you is just counter-productive. Probably not because you believe that you and you alone can " fix " Kansas wrestling.

Mike pirl

Mike other then the really low weights can you give me examples of where a 6U has placed in the top 4 at 8U state???

I think we are going to see one or more of these things happen:
I think the 6U thing will pass...
I think we are going to see below avg turnout in the the HS division at state. Those super match ups we all want to see will be few and far between. Alot of the studs will be committed to a college and dont want to risk injury.
Then I think you will see the HS division replaced by the 6U division at our kids state tournament.

IMO.. this is progression in our sport and we need to get behind it and support it!

The progression that this is moving towards is reducing our entire season to ending in February. I'm not completely opposed to this idea I just think that the 6 under should be included in topeka with the rest of their club that they train with the whole season. All the talk about retention and we exclude them to their own tournament and shorten their season. What does it say when we take high-schoolers with us and leave the 6 unders at home.

Mike Pirl.

2010 2010 - HS 2009 2009 - 16
North 1 569 109 468 70
South 1 632 102 597 98
North 2 557 136 460 70
South 2 454 60 448 49
East 3 418 64 368 41
West 3 460 59 433 48
North 4 428 58 372 56
South 4 469 58 426 34
3987 646 3572 466

In 2010 we saw an increase of 415 wrestlers at the subdistrict tournaments. 180 of the 415 were in the HS division over the previous year's 16U competitors.

I think the HS division offers and opportunity for kids who were not on varsity, who didn't make it to HS state, or who just want to extend their season a few weeks. A large number of the elite level competitors will attend NHSCA Nationals and begin preparing for FS/GR season.

I believe someone stated that changing the 16U to HS was not a successful change. Almost a 39% increase. I don't know about most of you but I would take a 39% increase in my business ANY year!

Like it or not, Topeka is going to be split in the very near future. As others have said it will be because Topeka can't handle our group without gouging us at the hotels. I on the other hand, want to see it split for a different reason. I believe at that level of competition every competitor deserves a large surface on which to wrestle and that a half mat should be the minimum with a whole mat as the goal.

Why does our National governing body - USA Wrestling use these weights and ages for tournament CHAMPIONSHIP series? I am sure they have have lots experience, knowledge, and discussion on establishing the age a weight divisions for championship series wrestling.

USA Wrestling
2010 AGE DIVISIONS and WEIGHT CLASSES
http://themat.com/forms/Weights.pdf


USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling
Our Mission, Vision & Values

USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling in the United States and, as such, is its representative to the United States Olympic Committee. Simply, USA Wrestling is the central organization that coordinates amateur wrestling programs in the nation and works to create interest and participation in these programs.

USA Wrestling has more than 160,000 members. These members include athletes of all ages, coaches, officials, parents and fans striving together to strengthen the sport. Each year, USA Wrestling charters over 3000 wrestling clubs and sanctions over 1600 local, state, regional and national competitions.

Mission: USA Wrestling, guided by the Olympic Spirit, provides quality opportunities for its members to achieve their full human and athletic potential.

Vision: USA Wrestling will strive to be the worlds best sports organization.

Values
• Responsibility - Fulfilling all functions, tasks, duties and assignments with trust and credibility on behalf of USA Wrestling by honoring promises and pledges.
• Integrity - Being true to self and the mission of USA Wrestling, while discerning right from wrong and acting on it.
• Dedication - Dedication to carrying out the mission and goals of USA Wrestling with the highest degree of sacrifice and discipline.
• Honesty - Being truthful and upright with people and issues in furthering the mission of USA Wrestling.
• Accountability - Providing answers and reasons to others for actions and behaviors intended to support the mission of USA Wrestling.
• Respect - Recognizing the absolute dignity in every human being, with a sense of compassion, caring and concern for the well-being of other people.


Bylaws of USA Wrestling
http://www.themat.com/forms/Bylaws.pdf

Article IX talks about State Associations

I find it a little hard to believe that there are that many U6 wrestlers in the State that are good enough to warrant having a qualifying U6 State Tournament. I understand that Ottawa has done a good job with a U6 non-qualifier State Tourney, and they have brackets that can be exceptionally large, but in these brackets, how many kids could compete at State in the U8 division?

I recognize that there are U6 wrestlers out there that just naturally have it or get it early on, and I believe that they should bump to U8 at the end of the year and see what they can do. All the others that want to compete for State hardware should continue to go to Ottawa.

For the same reason you might prefer your coffee with cream where others like theirs black.


They have no more of all of those things than our state governing body contains! Some would argue they have less.

I wrestled in pa for 13 years without USA wrestling governing body and the state and wrestlers did just fine. 5 lb weight increments state series started at 10 under ( until last year ) and had 12 and 15 under. Wrestlers are aloud to wrestle wherever whenever ad long as no school event is taking place at the same time. USA and Kansas have too many rules ( holding ) back our wrestlers as they get older. Off subject but I also disagree with giving a weight allowance for highschool kids and not the others that are having big growth spurts. Goes back to that you can't bump up a division cause noone else can. Well you can't have a weight allowance for highscool cause noone else can.

Mike pirl

Wow. A 39% increase in the 16U/HS division last year!

Is that 39% increase - ??

15-18 plus years old compared to 15 & 16 year olds? If so not exactly apples and apples.

http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx

Best Practices for Improving the Recruitment & Retention of Student Wrestlers (ages 6 through 18)
Overview: While we have never, in the history of wrestling, had more students competing at the youth levels, we’ve also never had more forfeits at the high school level. Approximately 25% of all individual dual meet matches at the high school level are forfeits. An argument could be made to solve the challenge by eliminating weight classes at the high school level. But remember, for every weight class we eliminate, we eliminate about 10,000 opportunities for young aspiring student-wrestlers (10,000 varsity and 10,000 future varsity). The NWCA is committed to increasing the number of student-wrestlers at all levels. We command the absolute belief that the students are where they’ve always been…walking the hallways of their schools. What needs to change is how the coach recruits and retains them. This 45 minute online course is designed to help the youth, junior high, and high school wrestling coach understand the following principles:
• Best practices for motivating student-wrestlers at various ages.
• Concepts for keeping wrestling “fun.”
• Ideas on how to provide student-wrestlers with constructive feedback.
• Recognition of when and how to introduce students at various ages to competition.
Link: For more information
http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx

You are not that stupid. The proposal to open the division up to High School wrestlers instead of JUST 16U was being challenged as to whether or not it made a meaningful impact. There is nothing to compare any fruit to! The impact was a 39% increase in the number of competitors. That is the point.

Whoa.

TACT, please.

Will,

I understand what you are saying, however, the numbers you show don't really prove that the numbers increased due to making a high school division not just a 16U division. There is strong evidence that this is true but to really prove it and make it as resounding as you make it sound one would have to analyze the number of kids that were older than the 16U cut off. Then you would know for sure exactly how big of an impact that change had.

Now before you get riled up, I think the trend is correct.....by allowing older kids to wrestle, our numbers increased. But to be technically accurate on your percentage you need to do the analysis stated above.

Bottomline: I don't think it really matters. The number of kids participating increased and that is a good thing. Just leave it at that.

Shawn

That went out the window when I was accused of making a proposal and running away.

I was told on an earlier post that we do not yet have a viable definition of a novice wrestler and that concerns me as I gave a suggestion very similar to that of Oklahoma and got no response. Novice state would take care of the issues that are arising with the 6 under conflict. If you want to see the perfect definition of a novice wrestler look at Oklahoma.

Mike pirl

And there never will be one that fits all situations. Let each novice tournament make their own definition and leave it at that. If you or I don't like a particular tournament's definition then we should not attend that tournament.


No it won't because then you will REALLY have arguments about what constitutes a novice competitor!


I've never seen anything about Oklahoma that even approached "perfect" but I suppose there could always be a first. Regardless of how you word the definition there will always be those that disagree, those that don't fit that definition even though they belong, and those that abuse that definition.

Ok well then how about this suggestion. I believe that we are coddling the kids too much. We have novice tournaments and we have extra brackets at tournaments ( a, b, c ). I think that two novice divisions is crazy. One bracket in open tournaments means less money the club has to put out in awards, more matches for kids and makes the c and d wrestles work harder. Let's stop all the extra brackets and just wrestle if your novice go to novice tournaments if your open go open. Mike Pirl

I still don't think it's too hard to define a novice wrestler and watch it so that people don't cheat the system. Mike Pirl

Also in case many of you don't know none of this has any direct concern to me or my son. I am just trying to throw out ideas that may help improve the sport here in Kansas. Mike Pirl Don't mean to get under Anyones skin.

There are some wrestlers that will never make it out of the novice ranks. It is not as black and white as it would seem. GA has actually done a tremendous amount of work trying to define and regulate this area. The abusers are those who value the W over the experience and character building. While I agree that confidence is a delicate part of the formula, the coach and parents have the fiduciary responsibility to educate and nurture their young athlete in a constructive way.

in 2008 there were 474 16U wrestlers at subs. The data to create a more definitive view of just how the population of wrestlers was comprised is not readily available. It is a simple assumption when we had a trend of about 470 for two years and then we get a jump to 646 in the year that we allow older wrestlers to compete... I wish there was more historic information available but I don't have it. I think it would be quite a reach to say that suddenly 100 more 16U wrestlers wanted to go to subs in 2010. Further, when you look at the card numbers that population doesn't change by 39% so it is very logical to conclude that the change to the age group led to immediate growth.

This is just a question that I was asked one time and did not know how to respond except with if he loves it let him continue and support him.

Is there a time when you should tell a kid that this just is not the sport for them and maybe they should move on.

I guess if the competitor is not concerned with the results but only desires the competition and experience then no. If they continue to pursue competition it must be providing some fullfillment to them. I think only the kid should answer that question. That being said there may be some economic impact and a choice would have to be made.

This year’s proposal is the first step in a set of proposals to come - to make 6, 8, & 10 and under a separate state tournament from the 12, 14 & HS division. That could mean 2 sub districts 2 districts, 2 state tournaments and 2 sets of seeding meetings - now that will simplify renting facilities and getting volunteers for both state championship series. I’ll bet it is more cost effective this way and will reduce travel for the coaching staffs and volunteers – NOT The idea/proposal - is let’s do it now and we will figure out how to do it later. If that is the type of CHANGE we are voting for – I hope everyone has a few more open weekends and can round up tons of volunteers.

LAST TIME I CHECKED there are only 2 days in a weekend.
So in February we will have subdistricts, districts and state for 6, 8, & 10 and then at another location there will bee 12 & 14 open tournaments going on somewhere - I guess this all happens on Saturdays. So in the month of February if you have a 10 and 12 year old they will wrestle possibly at different locations. I am sure clubs will be chomping at the bit to host a 12 & 14 only tournament on the same day as subdistrict district and state for 6, 8, & 10's. Let alone try to get refs and volunteers. Coaches from clubs will be split up also to cover tournaments in 2 locations. Sundays we should be OK for novice in February. But everyone will be stretched thin on Saturdays - unless we start wrestling on Fridays in February for 3 straight weeks.

For those who are not familiar with the NWCA - It is the National Wrestling Coaches Association

Link: For more information
http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx


• Best practices for motivating student-wrestlers at various ages.
• Concepts for keeping wrestling “fun.”
• Ideas on how to provide student-wrestlers with constructive feedback.
• Recognition of when and how to introduce students at various ages to competition.
Link: For more information
http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx

The only thing that surprises me about you Sean is that you are able to type with that straightjacket on... How do you do that???

I think having the 6, 8, and 10 at one state tourney and 12, 14 and High School at another would be GREAT. Give the little guys something to shoot for. The tournament could rotate around the state with 2 districts getting a state tourney one year and the other two getting it the next. Sorry off subject.

I don't see the downside to voting the 6U state tourney in. Vote YES for 6U State!!!!

If you think 2 state tournaments is great try being a parent/coach of 2 kids at opposite places!!! How do you choose which to be with????
I think you should table this whole thing, get your proposals out to all the clubs so you can get feed back from the 6 and under parents. Since they are the ones affected by this and not the people argueing and name calling like 2year olds. It would be nice if our state representation would actually treaet us with respect and not be like a politician."Here is what I think so you you should too! If you don't like it tough!"

I would rather see us eliminate the H.S. division, and add the 6u division to the current series.

I know ... if I wanted to make a change, I should followed the proceedure, but this whole 6U State debate kinda caught people off guard and made us think a little.

Haven't the H.S. kids already had their regional/state tourney? I would rather see the H.S.ers take a few weeks off, then start fs/gr or start preparing for some of these national tournaments you guys have been talking about . I know the H.S. division wrestlers are still kids themselves, but to me, Kids
Wrestling is more 6U-14U. JMO

Regarding the novice definition...No way can you limit novice to two years. I know a kid who hasn't won a match in two years....not sure if he has ever wrestled 3 full periods. He doesn't go to novice tournaments because 99% are on Sunday's, but most tournaments do have more than one bracket (which could really be categorized as a novice tournament), and that's a good thing.....again JMO!!

Greg Pelland

Nobody said there would be two different tournaments on the same day/weekend! I don't forsee that ever happening. Also, other than the 6U and maybe the high school divisions I don't see there ever being a state tournament in February. Regardless of peoples wishes to move the season forward it simply isn't possible due to conflicts with other sports at each of our schools for venues to host subs and districts.
This issue of the 6U State has been around long enough that everyone should have a feel for it and there is no need to table the proposal.

First of all, the thought of two State Tourney's would be to have 6-10 be over in February. (The same time High School and Middle School end.) Then a 12-H.S. Tourney after their season. I don't think it will ever happen but I like the thought.

My thoughts on Novice. It is a nice concept, but gets abused. Most kids wrestle Novice and Open. It would be nice if it was like "the good ole days" and everyone was thrown into the mix. I know it will never go back to that but I like the thought.

Concerning 6U State. This is a NO BRAINER. Vote for 6U State. I have yet to hear what I think is a valid reason not to vote for it.

Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
SFGD – State Freestyle/Greco Director


“What doesn't support my position Sean?
Sean, you have NO arguement against this tournament proposal. You are arguing against having 6U kids involved in sports at all. That is a different debate for a different time. “

I am not opposed to 6 & under/and older novice wrestling at all - Our six and under and older novice season is generally over in Febraury after 3 months.
A) December is introduction to wrestling
B) January is continued development and a few matches & dippin dots normally Round Robin tournaments
C) February is continued development and a few matches and some more dippin dots Normally Round Robin tournaments
D) Late February and March I encourage the parents of the 6 & unders and other Novice Kids to take their kids to watch some championship wrestling (HS & Kids Subs, districts, & state) to help prepare them for the environment in the years to come.
E) we never schedule any tournaments on HS state weekend and I encourage all our kids to go watch HS State in order to prepare them for the high school environment and that level of competition - and all kids Open and Novice are encouraged to watch some championship HS wrestling at KSHSAA State.

“What doesn't support my position Sean?

1) Championship Wrestling State Series for 6 & under is the debate and the time is now.

2) USA Wrestling our National governing body’s established weight classes
USA Wrestling is the National Governing Body for the Sport of Wrestling
Our Mission, Vision & Values
Why does our National governing body - USA Wrestling use these weights and ages for tournament CHAMPIONSHIP series? I am sure they have lots experience, knowledge, and discussion on establishing the age weight divisions for championship series wrestling.

USA Wrestling
2010 AGE DIVISIONS and WEIGHT CLASSES
http://themat.com/forms/Weights.pdf




3) NWCA – National Wrestling Coaches Association • Recognition of when and how to introduce students at various ages to competition.

For those who are not familiar with the NWCA - It is the National Wrestling Coaches Association

Link: For more information
http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx


• Best practices for motivating student-wrestlers at various ages.
• Concepts for keeping wrestling “fun.”
• Ideas on how to provide student-wrestlers with constructive feedback.
• Recognition of when and how to introduce students at various ages to competition.
Link: For more information
http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx

And thank you Mr. Cokeley for calling me by my first name.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club

March 4, 2008

Smokey

Good work! I didn't know those types of discussions were happening in the hospitality room. I am going to have to start listening in!

Parents of 6U: My biggest question to all of you is: What do you remember about playing sports before you turned seven years old?
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Well I guess since USA Wrestling knows best, we should eliminate any and all competition for 6U. You can't have it both ways. Either no 6U wrestling or let them have their state tourney.

ouch.

This proposal requires further study and analysis. Multiple ideas are being presented within the forum discussion.

We can certainly all agree to disagree that this proposal needs further discussion & planning. Tabling the vote or voting NO at this time to give further study to Kansas Wrestling development is essential.

I don't see multiple ideas. I see one proposal which will be voted on. This forum is in no way a reflection of the make-up of the body or how the body would/will vote.


Nope, I can't agree! This will be at LEAST the third 6U State proposal I have voted on in my years with this organization. The last time it was voted on, D-2, of which I am a member, voted nearly unanimous in favor of 6U State. We don't need any more study, it's been studied and discussed to death! It's time to vote.

7 year old memory: We had an "Oak St Invitational" track meet and "tackle tackle" championship organized by an older boy. I still have a homemade ribbon for winning the javalin (it was a rake handle) I was the last one standing in the tackle tackle game who was not crying. So I guess I won that also.

I have a co-worker whose son is 4. He wants the boy to wrestle.
My advise was to just play with his son and spend time with him.

The vote taken at the District 2 meeting was 100% for this proposal.

In response to a recent email to a friend of mine that I read. Yes Rick is personal about 6& under. He started this tournament several years ago (I don't know how many because I am relatively new to the sport). At the time no one else wanted 6& under. He sacrificed his time and put all his effort into making a tournament to honor those young athletes that would otherwise be forced to compete in the 8 and under catagory at the state competion. He raised this competion as a parent would raise a child. Now that he has made it into a success others are wanting to swoop in and take control. Yeah I can understand why Rick is concidering this personal. I would be more concerned if he wasn't.
The kids that come to 6& under tournament are children that enjoy the sport. If they didn't come to 6& under they would be wrestling in 8& under in the actual state tournament where some of the, Shall we say, beefier children would be up against older more experienced wrestlers with a greater potential of getting hurt. These kids come from everywhere throughout the state. Yes it's a long drive for some but these families are ones who are dedicated to the sport and wrestle not only state wide but in multi states. No one forces these kids to be here they are here because of their drive and dedication.
Also while the brackets are sometimes large it is because he doesn't exclude. Any child can enter regardless of previous records. I could go on for hours but I have to get to work and I'm afraid my german irish temper will get the best of me if I continue to discuss the absurd allegations that have been stated by certain parties of this forum

Good thought in all this debate how many of the 6& under parents have had their say? My 3 wrestlers are all older so I don't have much of a say in this debate but those who are the ones whose children are going to generate the fees for this tournament should have the respect of having a say in the matter

I am guessing 50% of this year's 6U parents don't even know that they are going to be wrestling parents yet. That is 50% of the 2,000 plus card buyers. Most club directors do NOT have a 6U kid wrestling and the club directors are the voters. The club directors need to be in touch with what their parents would like to have or not have.

Ottawa could continue being the District 1 host for the 6U district tournament. I wouldn't have a problem naming the state tournament in some way to recognize Rick's contributions. It is just hard to make sense out of arguing to keep the state tournament is Ottawa. It is not official, small gym, long distance travel, limited parking, and Rick himself says it doesn't make a dime when he hosts it.

That is absolutely not true! Prior to the 6U state (note the small 's') being started, it was the intent of District 2 to start one seeing as how we were the primary proponents of a 6U State (note the large 's'). Each time we attempted to pass a proposal at the meeting it was primarily the good folks from District 1 that defeated it. Following one of these defeats several of us from D2 or maybe even the entire district, I can't remember which, got together at the state meeting and decided we would start a 6U state tournament if the body refused to do so. We came home with that intent but no sooner had we gotten home than the notice of such a tournament was going to be held in Ottawa came along. I personally had no problem with that, other than it seemed a bit hypocritical for the tournament to be held in the same district that had helped to defeat a State 6U tournament.
I applaud those responsible for creating the 6U state tournament but now for the betterment of all of our kids, it's time to give it up. I realize it is a cash cow and that can be very hard to give up. For the good of our state and the state of wrestling it must go back to where it should have been all along and that is in the hands of the state body.

Rich was not the only one involved with creating a six and under state tournament in Ottawa; He was our head coach that had the voice to make it happen. This attack on a venue that was created for so many kids in that age group because of the lack of interest or motivation so many years ago is absured. We as a coaching staff saw a need, and possibly something that may take off in the future, made a commitment to fill a void where others failed to do so. It's been a great deal of work and commitment, and worth every minute of the struggle, both to develope the six and under state tournament, and to try and hold onto it. So it's not just Rich that sees this as a struggle, but those of us that developed the idea, and turned it into reality.

As for a cash cow; That's a good one!

Matt Parenti - Honor tradition even if it's rescent history.

I just want to know how this will be handeled in the month of February? 2 State Tournaments, 2 Subdistricts & 2 district tournaments. Then again in March for the 12, 14, & 16's. Who and where will the open tournaments for the 12, 14, & 16. Plus Novice tournaments on Sundays? Where will the venues be, who will be the refs, what direction are the coaches suppose to go.


Post October 17, 2008

Will Cokeley -SFGD
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com


Finish the Kids (6, 8, and 10) with a sub, dist, and state tournament that ends in February. All of these events could be one day events which would make them more economical. Have another state tournament for 12, 14, and 16 after the JH/MS/HS seasons have ended. There would be no need for subs as the numbers don't justify it. Start this series the weekend after HS state. If there are some MS/JH programs extending beyond HS state we need to work with those leagues to end them earlier to permit these wrestlers the opportunity to wrestle for a state title (something KSHSAA doesn't offer). These tournaments would be small enough in size that they could be moved to all four districts. Honestly, the only city big enough to adequately and fairly host the current state tournament is Wichita. Topeka doesn't have the hotel room capacity needed not to mention it is not centrally located. The younger kids should be going to the HS state tournament to see what their long term goals are. We need to join forces and advocate a single site HS state tournament where we all gather annually to celebrate and recognize our wrestlers and the greatness of winning a HS state champioship

It is Mr. SFGRD to you. I still like the plan. It isn't the proposal to be voted on though. Don't try the old bait and switch on the folks who are crazy enough to be following this.

... (was I just called crazy by Will Cokeley?)

1) First it is add the 17 & 18’s
2) Then add the 6’s
3) Then 6,8,10’s separate state – at different locations
4) Then 12, 14, 16 separate state
5) The a 16 and over state
6) Then it is 4 and under and the Diaper classic
7) Where does it stop, how is it funded, who host all these events when other clubs are running novice tournaments, 12 & 14 opens - in Feberuary? These are all questions that have to be answered. It can not be lets vote for it and we will figure it out how to do it later. I hope that is not the plan.

If we are voting on 6 & U only because of money – it makes sense.
If we are trying to develop kids within our sport it makes absolutely no sense – Vote NO.

To say 6 & under do not have opportunities is not exactly correct. They have almost 3 months of tournaments 12-16 matches per month or 36-48 matches per year if parents and coaches let them wrestle that much. I never schedule that many matches for these Novice youngsters.


Flip Flop, Flip Flop, Flip Flop, -

Parents of 6U: My biggest question to all of you is: What do you remember about playing sports before you turned seven years old?”
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com


“It is Mr. SFGRD to you. I still like the plan. It isn't the proposal to be voted on though. Don't try the old bait and switch on the folks who are crazy enough to be following this.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com


March 4, 2008

Smokey

Good work! I didn't know those types of discussions were happening in the hospitality room. I am going to have to start listening in!

Parents of 6U: My biggest question to all of you is: What do you remember about playing sports before you turned seven years old?”
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Old Bait – I use for cat fishing.
Switch – I turn on my lights in the house.

Below is another related issue to that age group as well as other age groups and definitely applies and should be addressed. Not only the child that is being broke down - but the kids and parents standing around watching it are affected.


some my not like this post but thats the way it is. after attending alot of tournaments this year and being in ottawa, i have witnessed a lot of coaches or parents yelling at there kids after a match. now if your a parent yelling at your kid, because he made a mistake or lost you need help, and if your a coach and doing it then you might think twice about being a coach!!! you can talk to a kid and get the same affect as yelling no need to degrade the kid. i really feel bad for one in ottawa those near me that post on here knows what corner of the gym that took place. but there were others as well.

all i can say is those that yell at a kid for losing or a mistake needs to enter themselfs into one of these old timer tournaments and see if they to make a mistake.

ANGER HAS NO PLACE AROUND THIS SPORT OR YOUR CHILDREN.


Edited by nix (03/19/08 06:24 PM)
_________________________
WRESTLE YOUR BEST OR LOSE LIKE THE REST!!!

jeff nix.
620-214-0433



Allie
Member

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 156
Loc: Northeast Kansas I agree with you. I have seen many coaches (who are also their wrestlers Dad) who don't even wait until their kid is off of the mat before they lay into them. Poor kids lose their match and have someone that they look up to berating them. I'm very thankful that the coaches is our club are all very calm with our wrestlers.

In 180 post on this topic, this being 181, this is the most intelligent and meaningful thing posted to date.

now if your a parent yelling at your kid, because he made a mistake or lost you need help, and if your a coach and doing it then you might think twice about being a coach!!! you can talk to a kid and get the same affect as yelling no need to degrade the kid.

Just want to add another perspective that hasn't been discussed (this actually surprised me).....

I asked my son and a couple of other wrestlers in our club what they thought and their opinions. These kids are now around the 12 year old age. They wrestled in the 6u state at Ottawa and have wrestled in the regular state for the older kids. They were also part of the 32-64 man brackets when they wrestled at 6U.

They response was....don't change it. Keep 6U at Ottawa like it is. I asked, even with the big brackets.....answer: yes. I explained about having it in Salina and being focused on them, etc.......answer: don't change it. They loved the 6U state at Ottawa for all the reasons that folks have stated for keeping it the same.

Now I am not sure what all this means or if it will sway the way our club votes but it was a different perspective and one that surprised me.

The only thing I know for sure is that whichever way the vote goes........A HUGE THANKS and RESPECT are owed to Rick, Matt and all the other folks that gave these kids the opportunity at Ottawa for so many years.

See you all on Sunday.

Shawn

The thing that worries me the most is adding a qualifier and seperate state.
Forget about how long the season is because its only going to get longer.
The schedule is so stacked up with tournaments each and every weekend and you want to add 2 more. Clubs need tournaments to fund their teams. We can't afford to lose any more weekends.
I was a big fan of adding HS to our state tournament (because I was hoping for a grand state type event that won't ever happen) but I am now thinking that if we add the 6U to that event and drop HS then we would still have enough space. Maybe even do a little wrestling on Friday night???
I love the idea of 6U at state or their own. But there has to be a better way to schedule it.
I still say vote yes!!!

I have two wrestlers that wrestled in Ottawa. They still talk about the 32 man brackets they were in. They also (even at 11 and 13 years old) wish the season wasn't so long. One of them made a suggestion not made on here either. Keep the States in Ottawa but move it into Feb. and just make that tournament the "Official" 6&U State. I still say yes to this so the 6&U kids that are already wrestling competitively get the same rewards as their older teamates.

Andrew Steele

From 2005 to 2010

Percent growth by age groups. Thanks to USA Wrestling for providing the data I requested earlier.

Below is a summary.

10 & Under in Kansas is growing faster than the national group as a whole. Between 2005-2010 Kansas grew at 27 % and the nation grew at 19.15%.

From 2005-2010 in the ages 11-14 Kansas grew at 11.83% and the nation grew at 10.22%.

In the ages between 15-18 Kansas grew at 6.04% and the nation grew at 9.96%.

Overall numbers - USA Wrestling Kansas grew at 18.09% and USA Wrestling grew at 13.09%.




2005 to 2010


10 & Under

Kansas - 27%
USA - 19.15%

11-14

Kansas - 11.83%
USA - 10.22%


15-18

Kansas - 6.04%
USA - 9.96%%

Totals
Kansas - 18.09%
USA - 13.09%

Do you or your boys have any idea how far it is from Liberal, KS or Colby, KS to Ottawa, KS? Just curious...

It is 45 minutes further to Ottawa than Topeka. That is a mute point when you have alot of the same famlies traveling for the older kids to go to state.

Will just why are you so passionate about this subject any how? You don't even have a 6year old do you? Do you have any idea how many kids were in Ottawa last year (about 300 to 350)? Why don"t you ask the people in Salina it they could make or loose money with a tournament at the Bi-center with those numbers. You do realize that they make nothing off of concessions and other things there, don"t you? Ask them why the coaches room was across the street last year, I beleve it was because of the Bi-Center rules. So if you realy are willing to pick up the tab if NO money is made, or was that just something to say to make your point?

That is one reason why we should move state to Wichita then it too would be more centrally located.

In all technicallity Salina is the most centraly located and has the best roads to travel from east to west, north to south. They also have the room to handle it all. Including the 6year olds.

Salina has that all you can eat, everything you can eat, more than you can eat, eat 'til your eyes pop out, or worse, can't wait 'til morning to get rid of what I ate, would love to go back and eat some more tomorrow, buffet place. I think it was called the Western Sizzler, or something like that. If they have the Kid's State out there, I might have to go back, whether my son makes it to State or not.

I realize the kids club season is long. Too long for some kids but for others like my 3 who are just turned 12, about to turn 13 and 15 the season is not long enough. My 13 year old would wrestle year round if I let him. He passed up a chance to go see his favorite sister in NY so he could practice 4 times a day at the mizzou tiger style wrestling camp. He was signed up for another wrestling summer camp but they didn't have enough boys for his session and the only other option was to go when he was scheduled for mizzou. As soon as District (unfortunately he didn't place in district) he started going to the gym 3 times a week to train for this season. Durring the off season he reads his wrestling magazines and asks me REPEATEDLY when season will start. That's what is so great about wrestling is it's not like football where the whole team has to be at every game. If the season is to long for some let them sit out a month and than start training again when subs come into view. There is no rule (at least none I know of) that says all the kids have to compete in a certain number of tournaments to qualify for subs. Show up for the mets your child wants to compete in and hold out for the others.

Will,
I am supporting your idea. I do know that Ottawa is not a central location and the folks out west have a terrible drive to get there. I was just bring up what my boys brought up during our clubs parents meeting.

Palamino
As far as the season being to long for my boys they still wrestler every year and then move into GR/FS until the end of june. I think they would prefer to wrestle GR/FS long than folkstyle.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers just thowing some comments that came up during our clubs meeting. I am still votong in favor of this.

Andrew Steele

Still tabulating data -


Source: Data was collect from USA Wrestling, The yes/no portion was collected from individual state websites, some trackwrestling results were used to find age groups used at state tournaments.


2010 USA Wrestling 10 and Under Participants by State and what states offer a 6 & under state tournament. The states with 1000 or more 10 & under USA Card/Participants was the cut off. Several states have a mix of AAU memebership. I think PA is mainly AAU and they do not have a 6 & under state tournament.


Offer a
6 & Under
STATE 10 & Younger State Tournament
Series

The data below the first number is the number of 10 & under by state in rank order, then it is yes or no if they have a 6 & state tournament.


Illinois 6451 No
California 4587 No
Kansas 4558 No
Wisconsin 3791 No
Indiana 3481 Yes and has a qualifier
Missouri 2929 No
Oregon 2556 No
New York 2214 No
Georgia 1876 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Ohio 1796 No
Minnesota 1720 Yes and has a qualifier
Washington 1577 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Idaho 1443 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Wyoming 1427 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Texas 1354 No
Connecticut 1137 No
Maryland 1090 No
New Jersey 1001 No


There were 18 states with 1000 or more 10 & under participants - Of those 18 states only 2 have a 6 & Under
State tournament with a qualifier. 16 of the 18 states do not offer a 6 & under state tournament over multiple weekends.

Also of note: Indiana and Minnesota the 2 states with qualifying tournaments for 6 & under.
Both states showed a decline in numbers and percentage in the age group 11-14 and 15-18, between 2005 and 2010.

Between 2005-2010 - USA Wrestling Participants
Minnesota Growth rates by age group
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 33.85% 435
11-14 -0.40% -5
15-18 -4.57% -49



Between 2005-2010
Indiana Growth rates by age group
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 13.31% 409
11-14 -4.95% -147
15-18 -34.79% -184

Other states that do not have a 6 & under Arizona, Colorado,
Louisiana, Iowa, New Mexico

States with open tournaments called state held on 1 weekend,
Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Nebraska,

I have heard that Oklahoma has a 6 & state tournament. I will have to check that. Yes they do have a 6 & under division at the state tournament with a regional qualifier.
http://okseries.com/youth/flyers10/okwastatetournament2010.htm

Ohhh Smokey...
When this thing passes what will you do with all that time you will have on your hands from not having to dig up all this info that 90% of the people who read this thread pay no attention to?

Your passion is to be commended but your beating a dead horse IMO...

A friend told me...
"Ya its fun to beat a dead horse in the begining but after a short while you look pretty stupid standing there beating a dead horse"

Whether this thing passes or not, I really don't care. I have two more boys, one who has wrestled two years and will still qualify as U6 if he chooses to wrestle this year, and the other one being three and a half. My wife tells me that the three and a half year old will be a very good wrestler (can't debate her and win, if you know what I mean).

My first son wrestled three seasons and it just wasn't his deal. My second should be starting his first High School season this year after toiling nine season on the Kid's circuit. You already know about my third and fourth based on the information I provided above. To date, the most accomplished of the four didn't wrestle in the Kid's State series of tournaments until he was eight. I wouldn't change a thing, and the younger ones will have to wait to wrestle in the State qualifying tournaments (if they are wrestling) until they are in the U8 bracket.

Ohhh BLT -

That is to bad that some of these folks do not read these forums and want to be informed about developing their kids and growing wrestling in a common sense and responsible way. I will present some of the data to the state body, executive comittee, the state tournament comittee, and the proposer - most of them read these forums.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club

Total population growth by state from 2004-2009

Kansas grew by 87,982 residents or 3.22% from 2004-2009
Indiana grew by 208,658 residents or 3.36% from 2004-2009
Minnesota grew by 186,870 residents or 3.68% from 2004-2009

Source: US Census Bureau


Also of note: Indiana and Minnesota the 2 states with qualifying tournaments for 6 & under.
Both states showed a decline in numbers and percentage in the age groups 11-14 and 15-18, between 2005 and 2010.

Between 2005-2010 - USA Wrestling Participants
Minnesota Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 33.85% 435
11-14 -0.40% -5
15-18 -4.57% -49

Between 2005-2010
Indiana Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 13.31% 409
11-14 -4.95% -147
15-18 -34.79% -184

Between 2005-2010
Kansas Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 27.00% 969
11-14 11.83 305
15-18 6.04% 89

Source: USA Wrestling


I just wanted to give everyone (who reads this) a peak into the future of what can happen by putting more and more pressure on kids at a younger age. If we want to grow Kansas and USA wrestling participants and membership in every state - it looks to me that states with a 6 & under state tournament championship series should not be part of the model.

If voted in as a yes it will take 5 years to see the real effect.
Additionally, it will take another 5 years to reverse the effect.

I am pretty sure the short term gain will have some adverse long term results. In business I would much rather have the results from the current Kansas model compared to trying what the results show in the other 2 states above.

I am not willing to gamble on a proposal that may take 10 years to reverse its effects.

Please tell me you aren't presenting any of this crap from the floor of the meeting? This is exactly why people don't show up for the meeting, is silly stuff like you have been posting here! People have the information it's time to vote, up or down.

I am not sure of your credentials, but I am sure of Sean's credentials. I have known him for about seven years, but it only took the first year to know that he cared a great deal about Kid's wrestling and cared about the kids. I wanted to go on and say that I have read enough of your "crap" over the last few years, but I won't.

I can tell you what he will be doing with his time. Running STA wrestling practice 3 nights a week from 6:00 to 8:30 (encompassing both open and novice practice), spending every Saturday and Sunday at kids wrestling tournaments, after tournaments he will likely be spotted at high school tournaments all over the JoCo area watching wrestlers who he has coached since they were 6. Once in a while, if his schedule permits he may be able to sneak in a trip to watch his own son wrestle for West Point. But before he leaves he will obsess about making sure that his club practices are being handled by competent coaches, especially the novice practice.

So don't worry about Sean.

sportsfan02 - I thought that is what the state body meeting was for - presenting the facts. I wanted to know some information about the proposal and I was told by SFGD good luck get it yourself and I did.


Both states have a state championship series that starts at 8 & U


Between 2005-2010 - USA Wrestling Participants
Missouri Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 43.44% 887
11-14 22.69% 481
15-18 15.55% 167


Between 2005-2010
Wisconsin Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 41.56% 1,113
11-14 15.13% 426
15-18 33.61% 406

Between 2005-2010
Kansas Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 27.00% 969
11-14 11.83 305
15-18 6.04% 89

Source: USA Wrestling

From a business stand point the above states are a couple of models our state board and state body/organization might want to check and see what they are doing.

You have presented NO facts! You have presented a bunch of numbers which have no meaning one way or another. Facts would be what those numbers prove if anything. Again, they PROVE NOTHING and to your credit you haven't attempted to say they do. They are JUST numbers and the facts would be those deduced from those numbers. If you want to provide handouts at the beginning of the meeting for all to read I have no problem with that but to get up and present these numbers again is a waste of everyone's time. There is no need for a bunch of debate on this issue as it has been hashed and rehashed over and over for years. It's time to vote!

So anyone who recognizes the "data" he has posted here as crap doesn't care about kids?

You said it, not me. I just said that Sean is a great guy, an excellent coach, a caring father, and someone who devotes a "crap" load of his time trying to make wrestling in Kansas better.

Agree or not with Sean, anyone who knows him understands his passion for helping kids.

Thanks Chief. His passion for the sport is on one level, his understanding for the sport is on another level. When it comes down to it, it is always about the kids. If they ever have a Kansas Kid's Coach's Hall Of Fame, I would vote him in on the first ballot.

I hope that if the the 6 and under passes that it will be handled as well as Rick has. I also hope that as a compromise you don't stop all of the 6 year olds from wrestleing up. My 7year olds birthday is 19 days after the cut off. So he will be in 6 and under and has looked forward to wrestling up this year in the big show like his big brother. As with him not all six year olds should be held back as some are more advanced than others. The ones thar are will be there the ones that are not will not be there as it has always been. Why not leave that part alone? Not all kids are the same, why judge them all the same?

I would agree with you creach boys. Some U6 are very gifted and have the ability to wrestle up to the next age group. I still don't think that there are enough in all weight classes to warrant a U6 State series of tournaments. The wrestlers that are that gifted, should be given the opportunity to wrestle for some U8 hardware at State.

The proposal prohibits 6 year olds to wrestle in an age group above their actual age. This will halt 6 & U that 'maybe can' do it UNABLE to compete if they are wrestling 8 U participating in Topeka.

5 & 6 year olds don't need the memory of anxiety, fright & frustration. With only their coach in their corner we're losing that important nurturing; intimacy of consoling the child after such a big event's loss while the parents sitting in the stand at this age of 5 & 6 are doing all they can to "be there". Financially it doesn't make sense especially counting on 80 5 & 6 year olds that weigh 80 lb's or more. Making the kids grow up & be competitive at such a young age when psychologicaly most have not matured -- is NOT the answer. The children are Preschooler's, Kindergartners & 1st graders! They have years to acquire competition mentality physically as well as emotionally. This is what the compilation of Sean's literature illustrates for the informed reader.

Nothing is wrong with the Ottawa Tournament -- all that desire to go---go. The bracket if your child is in the median wt range may be larger. But to have a qualifier and a State series for kids this age takes the fun out of the tournament (It truly will be hard to believe that this will be unseeded--whereas the State series gets pretty detailed in this regard). The Novice Championships are also a great idea for children this young. Everyone goes, everyone wrestles.

To have a kid believe they've reached the pinnacle in a sport such as wrestling at 5 or 6 years old consequently may only substantiate withdrawal from the entire sport in time.

The data speak for itself in terms of reflective growth. If you're not willing to analyze and review the data then maybe it does need to be presented because those are the FACTS compiled from USA Wrestling & Sean has done a great review of States and their 6 U offerings. It will be exciting to track & tend how we do grow as a State in Wrestling. We have great wrestlers! No doubt about it. Let's just keep them on the mat.

The Vote should be NO on this proposal. Allow the 6 U to compete in the 8 U State tournament like they have been. J.M.H.O.

I am not (nor will I ever) questioning Smokeys commitment or passion to the sport. I was just stating how much time he has spent looking up all these facts that have probably made very little impact on the people that read this thread.

I am very disappointed this proposal did not pass. The 6 and under kids pay their dues like every other age group and should be rewarded accordingly. I think the 6u would benefit from a shortened season. I still think holding an "unofficial" 6u state tournament the Sunday after high school state is a great idea.

-Sarah Hartley