Athletic participation restrictions

We were Debating the restriction rules when it comes to Athletes participating in top level tournaments when engaged in High school, Junior High Sports. And in doing so we were screwing up a good post.

I think the rule encourages mediocrity. If you have a top level wrestler who would like the option of broadening his horizons and seeing how he measures up against national competition they should have that choice. After all they put the workouts. How can we Forbid them.

K.S.H.S.A.A. is simply out of touch with Wrestling. While Sports such as Baseball, Football, Basketball all have traveling/regional teams as well as active A.A.U. teams that depend on the "team aspect" these schedules are outside of the regular H.S. season. Whereas, wrestling occurs within the season and IS a detriment to developing & recognizing the higher level athlete as the folkstyle tournaments are within the season (regional, state & national).

It would be interesting to know how many states allow wrestlers to participate in "other" tournaments within the season. I DO NOT believe home-schooling is the deviant answer. If greater than 66% allow participation KSHSAA needs to re-examine for the sport of Wrestling. Yet hopefully the wrestler has a proper sense of allegiance to the HS team.

Jordan & Chertow are both identifying a need for HS wrestlers to improve their skills during winter break....which I'm sure can certainly be helpful. JMHO.

While individual accomplishment is great, the teams that I have the closest contact with, are ALL about the team first and foremost. I know some people have a tough time understanding such thinking, but it is how it has been handed down from generation to generation. The team takes priority over individual accomplishments.

Wrestling is first and formost a individual competetion. Maybe I have had a different expiereince in wrestling than you but what i always loved is I got out what I put in and it is this I've handed down. Teams are great and important but once out thier its just you.

What I here is that if the team can't go you can't go. Not everyone on every team should go. But they should have the option. Not everyone can compete at this level. Its a hard truth but truth non the less.

We have no right to tell anyone they can't do these things. Let alone forbid it. Last time I looked colleges didn't recruit teams just indiviuals. And these Big Venues are one of the things they look at. Not how many time you've beaten the same kids in one season.

Ok, sportsfan02 I can agree that maybe football, basketball, soccer, baseball etc. are all about the team. You win as a team you lose as a team and all that jazz since you depend on others to work with you during play. But when it comes to martial arts and wrestling it's about the athlete. You can't tag Bubba to come in a take over for ya. It's "Mano E Mano",nobody on the team casting spells or sticking pins in a voodoo doll to help you win.

Now it's nice to have team support and teammates to work out with assuming you got enough teammates to work out with, but even the kids don't fool themselves, they know who's got it and who don't. Still they get to be a part of something that's organized and community supported. It's always good to be included in something bigger than yourself. Strong teams survive on their ability & resilience not their presence.

If you only had one wrestler qualify for HS State would you keep him home because the rest of the team didn't make it? I don't think so. Would the whole team be there to support him? I don't think so. So where is the team now? They are at track practice, golf practice, swimming, baseball, goofing off etc.. How do I know, cause I've been there. The only kid on the team to go to state and not one of my 20+ teammates were there to support me.

So this issue really does stink for those kids who are missing out on an opportunity to further their career or their college resume. Guess it's not a mystery why KS HS wrestlers are potentially overlooked by colleges. Nobody knows who the heck they are because they rarely get any exposure on the national level.

As I said, it is difficult if not impossible for some to understand! I have one question though for those that think wrestling is strictly an individual sport. Why, if it is an individual sport, do they keep team scores?

Because they are representing a school. As you have said, it is difficult if not impossible for some to understand........sooooooooooooooo let me ask you this, why do they keep individual win/loss records?

Everyone posting is 100% right. Wrestling is both a team and an individual sport.

While the gist of your point is true, the only persons keeping track of win/loss records other than for seeding purposes each year, is the KWCA, I believe. To my knowledge KSHSAA doesn't recognize individual records.

Sportsfan, and is has been said that the KSHAA is not in touch with reality when It comes to wrestling. Wrestling is an individual sport, and a team sport. However, No one can help but yourself once on the mat. It is obvious you are not a wrestling fan, or at least an intelligent one. Go back to your team sports where you can blame others for your shortcomings.

Lyle Geyer 303 717 5321 or lylegeyer@yahoo.com

Sportsfan02, as we can all see maybe we're missing the big piture and the reasoning for this ruling?

Can anyone give a reasonable explaination on the benefits of this rule. From where I stand I see the team aspect of it all, and I get it. But what would it hurt to change this and give kids the option? I don't see the possible backlashes or downfalls simple pro's and con's. How does it hurt the team? We all can see how it could help an individual. I fail to see how it would hurt anything.

On a side note I can't fing the rule and how it accually reads does anyone have it handy?

Rule 22 —OUTSIDE COMPETITION
Violation of this rule shall make a student ineligible for the remainder of that sport or scholars’ bowl or debate season, unless he or she is reinstated by the Executive Board.
Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)
Art. 1: A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity. (Exception: See Rule 4, United States Olympic Committee-Sponsored National Trials and Competitions.)
NOTE: Informal participation on the part of the student athlete, such as that experienced on the black top (concrete), in the park, local “Y”, etc., is not considered a violation of this rule, provided it was not formally called or organized, no coaching takes place,
where no official score is kept, time kept, officials used, etc. Intra non-school youth group athletic participation is not considered
a violation of this rule. Inter non-school youth group athletic participation is a violation.
Art. 2: A student shall not be prohibited from competing on a special team within his or her own school such as an FFA team, etc. All
members of such teams must be bona fide students, however, and eligible under the rules of the Association.
Art. 3: A student becomes a member of a school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team when he or she first participates
in a practice session. A student ceases to be a squad member after his or her last contest for the school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team or when the membership on a squad is terminated. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide Student; and Rule 30-2-2, Seasons of Activities.) FROM: WEB: www.kshsaa.org

Quite lengthy, but Rule 22 "is what it is". I truly believe this is an important change that is needed for the sport of Wrestling -- but note Sportsfan I did state that there needs to be allegiance to the athlete's team. Unfortunately & Woefully, all members of the Wrestling team are not at State although those that qualify compete individually & in the name of their HS team.

Just because it's been said doesn't make it true!

I can give several reasons but none that will satisfy the anti-KSHSAA crowd. First on my personal list is, as a selfish fan I don't want your kid or others out there giving their all at some national tournament to the detriment of their/my team. I don't want to see a kid injured participating in a tournament which most likely doesn't comply with NHSF rules.

The problem is, when you change any one rule with KSHSAA it often effects a number of sports. If you for instance increase the participation points for wrestling then the ******ball people are wanting more games etc.,etc. It's a vicious circle without end.

Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Hossus
Certainly doesn't appear to favor the athlete in any way.

It doesn't. It favors the student instead!


So you don't learn anything when you are outside of the classroom?

When you get out of school you never have to travel outside of your daily work environment to complete your job requirements?

How does it favor the student? Are teachers better for our kids than coaches?

The rule is communistic and I am appalled by anyone that calls themself an American and thinks that it is a good thing. Land of the free??? How about Land of more rules and regulations every year. By the way, that equals less freedom in case you didn't learn that while you were in class instead of traveling.

How does not letting our wrestlers go to open tournaments on weekends favor the student? HOW???

My oldest boy has been going to the tulsa kick off since he was 6. He wanted to go this year but because of the rules he could not. How is this good for ks wrestling?? The explanation by sport0 is lame at best. This is a control issue!! Many wrestlers dont wrestle middle school because of this rule. This is how this rule is bad for ks wrestling. Many kids wrestling clubs dont let a wrestler practice any where but in thier room. If they do let them practice elsewhere they look down on the wrestler & parents for practicing outside the club. This is a control & ego issue. I do agree with sport0 on one thing-- I will never understand.

So your concern is that whaen this individual is absent from the team, that the team is going to fail or lose? And the individuals personal health.

If any wrestling programs overall success hindges on the presence of any one wrestler. Your program needs to make some advancements toward growing its core program. Remember there is no I in team. So I would like for my son to have the choice to wrestle somewhere else if he wants. Not every week or all the time but the choice would be nice. As for the health our kids are twice as likely to get hurt wrestling a 1st year kid with no idea what hes doing than a 3x state champ else where.

Now please any clerification on the reasoning of this rule from anyone?

And I am not anti anything or negitive about this rule. If anyone person can give me a reasonable explaination of its benefits. I would just like to know how it can to be. Cause what I'm getting so far is that if a wrestler is gone and misses a dual or tournament his team could lose. And that cannot possibly be it.

The loophole here is to just join the HS team right before the state series. If you've been wrestling National Tournaments you shouldn't have any problems thumping the guy on the A team. That way you get the best of both worlds. You also get to mess up the state seedings as well for giggles. Plenty of different kids clubs to practice with until state series.

The other loophole is for National Tournaments to start getting an endorsement, sponsoring or sanctioning from Oly Committee. At least that is the way I read that. You'd think that the Oly committee would be on board with it.

What I am trying to say is there is always a way around things. Depends on how much people want to work together or not.

I'm not looking for a loop hole at all. I want my kid to get the best chances that he can at being recognized by the best schools that he can. And so should his coach and team and state commities.. Now if his dream is still to go to Iowa and that he is truely talanted enough for that to be an option. He is alot more likely to get the word out about himself at a national large venue. Than the JOCO whatever tournament. And what if you athlete is at a school with an sub-par wrestling program. Your team won't even be given the option or be invited to some of the toughier tournaments. Now in these situations tell me that we are bettering Kansas Wrestling holding these individuals back and limiting thier options.

I said that was MY #1 reason, I didn't say that was THE #1 reason for the rule.

There is absolutely no reason that a kid, whether he is with a middle school or high school program at the time, should not be allowed to go to an open tourney to see how he "measures up" against top level competition. Obviously, I wouldn't like it if our best kid left town at regionals or state, but I doubt if there was ANY kid that would do such a thing.

Does noone here think that the kid is doing the team a favor by making himself better at that tough tourney? Steel sharpens steel. And if a kid on our high school or middle school team sharpens his blade against some studs at a national level, or even an instate tourney that presented a tough matchup, rather than pin his way thru the Joe Blow Invitational, I am all for it.



Noone gives a hoot, nor remembers, who won the Joe Blow Invitational. But they always remember who won the state title, both individual and team.........

The solution to your problem seems simple. You are seeking the best way to individualize your son's wrestling career. I think you could easily travel to national tournaments at your own expense and you could also pick up opportunities at tournaments where home-school kids and private school kids compete. I don't think anyone would begrudge you in your efforts here. I think Alex Thomas pursued this option for the early years of his high school career.

It appears that you are seeking the best of both worlds in this argument. You are hoping to reap the benefits associated with the state tournament series provided to you by KSHSAA and its member schools. I'm certain the state championship looks good on a resume when seeking scholarships. I understand the desire to compete nationally. Tennis players, swimmers, gymnists, etc. have the opportunity to compete on the national level but they often lose the ability to compete in state sponsored events.

What I've found in coaching wrestling, is that you can't wrestle by yourself. Meaning, you need training partners. The team often provides quality partners, adequate if not exceptional coaching, and multiple opportunities to compete. The team also provides support and friendship which makes the travel, tournaments, and down time much more entertaining.

Finally, I know a few college coaches and they've told me that it is difficult to recruit and watch kids during the season because they are so busy with their schedules. I've been told that many recruit heavily at Fargo and Senior nationals. Please take note that I didn't say solely and all coaches recruit this way.

I don't support everything KSHSAA does and I'm not drinking the kool aid. I'm also not a communist and I think my freedoms are intact as long as I'm not attempting to bypass the TSA. However, KSHSAA serves as a governing body with rules and regulations designed to protect the interests of all stakeholders. I'm certain it is quite difficult to please all of us.

Sportsfan your comments are arbitrary in that the pervasion of hiding is the notorious subject of anonymity. I personally find it a non linear argument that the prohibitive distinction our Kansas Wrestlers are capable of achieving is nonetheless recalcitrant by KSHSAA.

The Sport of Wrestling is quite a bit different than the other "....ball" sports --- and in that premise we as parents and citizens of the "governing" KSHSAA need to appeal to the executive body. The kids do not have the chance as the other "...ball" sports to participate in regional and National teams as opportunity exists within the season. Folkstyle season is Folkstyle season. Just the opportunity to "work-out" with others may enhance the athlete's performance on the mat...such as a Winter Training opportunity. Hossus you have a mischievious idealogical sense. Coach's are able to watch at their camps as well...Wrestling is politically huge.

As far as injury I agree with aforementioned....even ringworm or herpes can be opportunistic with "down time" as well as simple or complex injury. There is no 1 person that will "make or break" the T.E.A.M. (Together Everyone Achieves More) mentality. I'm fairly certain that most partners would give KUDOS for the wrestlers going "B___s to the Wall" in National tourney's and making it great & making big things happen! It would also certainly prepare our HS'rs more as there is MUCHO difference in HS vs Collegiate wrestling performance.

"Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind. To the fearful it is threatening because it means that things may get worse. To the hopeful it is encouraging because things may get better. To the confident it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better". ---King Whitney Jr.

Why is there no mileage travel limit on the HS band but there is for all HS sports teams?

Aw heck, Will even the Devil was in the Band!

The devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a soul to steal.
He was in a bind 'cos he was way behind: he was willin' to make a deal.
When he came across this young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.
And the devil jumped upon a hickory stump and said: "Boy let me tell you what:
"I bet you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
"And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
"Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due:
"I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, 'cos I think I'm better than you."
The boy said: "My name's Johnny and it might be a sin,
"But I'll take your bet, your gonna regret, 'cos I'm the best that's ever been."

Johnny you rosin up your bow and play your fiddle hard.
'Cos hells broke loose in Georgia and the devil deals the cards.
And if you win you get this shiny fiddle made of gold.
But if you lose, the devil gets your soul.

The devil opened up his case and he said: "I'll start this show."
And fire flew from his fingertips as he rosined up his bow.
And he pulled the bow across his strings and it made an evil hiss.
Then a band of demons joined in and it sounded something like this.
When the devil finished, Johnny said: "Well you're pretty good ol' son.
"But sit down in that chair, right there, and let me show you how its done."

Fire on the mountain, run boys, run.
The devil's in the house of the risin' sun.
Chicken in the bread pan, pickin' out dough.
"Granny, does your dog bite?"
"No, child, no."

The devil bowed his head because he knew that he'd been beat.
He laid that golden fiddle on the ground at Johnny's feet.
Johnny said: "Devil just come on back if you ever want to try again.
"I told you once, you son of a gun, I'm the best that's ever been."

And he played fire on the mountain, run boys, run.
The devil's in the house of the risin' sun.
Chicken in the bread pan, now they're pickin' out dough.
"Granny, will your dog bite?"
"No, child, no."

Happy Thanksgiving one & all!

'

Will not work...KSHSAA will NOT let you compete at regionals if you haven't been out for 1/2 of the season. Ask Lucas Vincent. Many of the great HS tournaments will not let you enter unless your AD has entered your wrestler with a high school contract. I have looked for loopholes.

How many times do you see individual accomplishments mentioned on this web site versus team accomplishments? If it were truly a "team" sport then we would have a dual state.

As far as recruiting goes. As long as we have three or four different sites for our state tournaments then colleges will NOT send anyone to watch our wrestlers. This, to me, is the biggest KSHSAA issue. Only seven states do not conduct their wrestling state tournament(s) at a single site. We could have a three day event but mighty Rick and Gary say no. Jason Halling, if you think the KSHSAA is an advocacy group for the state high schools you are dead wrong. It is a pure dictatorship in reality with only a superficial look of fair representation. We could go on all day long with ridiculous rules such as DEAD WEEK, travel limits, competition points, 5 match limit per day, no clinics or camps, the lack of officials evaluation system, yada yada yada.

Will,

Guess that has changed since I was in school. I had inner ear surgery over Christmas break my freshman year. I wasn't able to practice, lift weights or run for 3 months. I joined the team about a week before our league meet and was allowed to wrestle regionals and substate. Might have caught a break due to the injury?

Very interesting though. Is that another rule listed somewhere or did they make a ruling on it based on the individual?

I believe there is an exception for injury or illness because technically you were still "out for wrestling". Lucas decided after the Bobcat last year to go out for wrestling and KSHSAA denied his participation in the state championship series. I gave up doing research on the rules as it doesn't really matter. Rick and Gary make rulings up as they go on some topics. 8th grade red shirting is a prime example of a gray area.

Rule 26
ANTI-TRYOUT AND PRIVATE
INSTRUCTION
A student who violates this rule shall be ineligible in
that activity for a period of one year from the date
of the violation, unless reinstated by the Executive
Board.
Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)
Art. 1: A student may receive instruction from their
parent(s) at any time. A student’s parent(s) may attend
their student’s private instruction session without
vioArt. 2: A student may receive private instruction at any
time of the school year. During the time a student is a
member of a school athletic squad, starting with the
student’s first day of school practice and ending with
the student’s last day on the school athletic squad, a
student may receive private instruction subject to the
conditions set forth in this rule.
Art. 3: Other individuals may be present at a student’s
private instruction session as long as they
are there in a supportive capacity only and not
giving or providing instructions to the student.
NOTE: Pr i v a t e ins t ruc t i on i s de f ine d
as one student receiving instruction from one
person during the period of instruction.
A group is defined as two or more students
receiving instruction from an instructor
during the same period of instruction.
Supportive capacity is defined as participating in the
period of instruction without providing any instruction
to the student or instructor or in a competitive
situation/capacity.
Art. 4: A student shall not participate in group training
sessions or tryouts held by colleges or other outside
agencies in a sport while he or she is a member of a
school athletic team in that identical sport.
Rationale:
An Anti-Tryout and Private Instruction requirement:
a. Protects the school/coach - student/athlete relationship;
b. Establishes guidelines under which a studentathlete
may receive private instruction;
c. Helps preserve the school’s staffing integrity;
d. Promotes and helps protect the student/athlete
relationship to the school’s team;
e. Provides opportunity for specialized individual
training;
f. Prohibits student/athletes from trying out for
non-school teams during the school season of
the same sport;
g. Maintains a fair competitive environment for
school teams;
h. Protects the parent-child relationship.lating the provisions of this rule.

Section 2: Senior High Regulations
Art. 1: The final date for school competition in all athletics
shall end on the date the state championship series is
scheduled. The final date for a member school’s athletic
practice is the date the school is eliminated from postseason
competition.
Art. 2: A student who is enrolled at the start of a season of
sport, must be a member of the squad for the majority of
the scheduled varsity contests, in order to be eligible for
post-season competition. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide
Student; and Rule 22-1-3, Outside Competition.)

You know, if I wanted to change a KSHSAA rule the first thing I would do is see if my high school coach and AD were in agreement with me. If they were, the second thing I would do is attempt to sell the rule change to the KWCA. If the KWCA agreed with my suggestion then they would act as my advocate with KSHSAA for the rule change.

OOOOOOOOOK

I read that Anti-tryout and Private instruction rules yesterday. And as I read it one on one personal instruction is fine but in a group is forbidden. I always thought both were off limits.

And at least they gave us a Rational behind the rule. I'm trying to understand the rational behind the outside competition rule. I have a hard time believing that it was set in the malicious manner some believe.

And it does seem to be just a bit out of touch with wrestling. I understand it a little in regards to an entire team traveling. I even understand a individual participating in competition on another team. But from an Individual competing alone as in wrestling's case, it doesn't seem to fit.

This will NEVER work. See posts on 6 Matches in one day topic. If you don't have the support of Gary Musselman you are wasting your time and everyone elses. I have proposed changes that were supported and have been supported but CHANGE is not in KSHSAA's vocabulary unless it involves MORE control.

Call me naive but I believe that particular rule will be changed in the near future due to the efforts of the KWCA.

That doesn't change the fact that it should have and was expected to be changed this year. Gary single handedly stonewalled the efforts and collaboration of many.

Thanks Will for the info,

I've run into the private instruction thing before. Was training my then 6 year old how to throw the shot put one day at the track. There were two rings to use. After awhile some HS boys came over to the other ring and were warming up. They saw what I was doing with my son and came over to ask me a few things about footwork and such. Not too long after the Coach came over and said he knew who I was and wished I could be a coach for him but that I couldn't interact with the HS kids because of this rule. Since I had been a thrower in college I was considered a professional instructor. Too bad really, I could have taught them Discus & OLY Hammer too.

ok guys I'm pretty green at participating in this forum but this topic hits close to home. We are trying to figure out how to continue our sons wrestling career past 6th grade. The school he attends does not have wrestling and it is very difficult logisticly to move to another school in his 7th and 8th grade year.
Here are my questions. Can he practice on a kids club team and compete at junior high events If the school administration allows me to be his coach? If I am his coach can he attend national events while competing at the junior high level?
Last but not least can he have other junior high kids practice with him in private sessions without getting anybody in trouble?

Daryl Lucas

Daryl:

The answer to your questions may be found in KSHSAA Rule 22 which I have copied below. Should you have any additional questions I would discuss the matter with your high school or middle school athletic director who should be familiar with KSHSAA Rules and Regulations.

Rule 22
OUTSIDE COMPETITION

Violation of this rule shall make a student ineligible for the remainder of that sport or scholars’ bowl or debate season, unless he or she is reinstated by the Executive Board.

Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)

Art. 1: A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity. (Exception: See Rule 4, United States Olympic Committee-Sponsored National Trials and Competitions.)

NOTE: Informal participation on the part of the student athlete, such as that experienced on the black top (concrete), in the park, local “Y”, etc., is not considered a violation of this rule, provided it was not formally called or organized, no coaching takes place, where no official score is kept, time kept, officials used, etc.

Intra non-school youth group athletic participation is not considered a violation of this rule. Inter non-school youth group athletic participation is a violation.

Art. 2: A student shall not be prohibited from competing on a special team within his or her own school such as an FFA team, etc. All members of such teams must be bona fide students, however, and eligible under the rules of the Association.

Art. 3: A student becomes a member of a school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team when he or she first participates in a practice session. A student ceases to be a squad member after his or her last contest for the school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team or when the membership on a squad is terminated. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide Student and Rule 30-2-2, Seasons of Activities.)