Kids' High School State - One Observation

I am not sure what to make of the Kids' Federation High School Division from the perspective of one weight class. This is the breakdown by each Sub-District:

D1 North 7 wrestlers
D1 South 3 wrestlers
D2 North 2 wrestlers
D2 South 1 wrestler
D3 East 1 wrestler
D3 West 3 wrestlers
D4 North 1 wrestler
D4 South 2 wrestlers

Twenty wrestlers in all, ten from D1. Only one bracket had wrestlers who won't go on to Districts. Next weekend, only four get through to State. D1 will lose four more, the other three Districts get everyone through plus two Byes. This is just my observation of one weight class, but I would guess that there are others. It might be time to open up a couple of slots for State from District brackets when there are Byes getting through from other Districts. I know the argument, which ones get slots when there are more than one District with more than four wrestlers? In this case, there is only one.

I personally think that we are losing many 15 & 16 year olds by creating the HS division. Not sure what the solution is - but I do not think it was our intent to lose those kids we are trying to develop for their junior and senior year of HS.

I concur Smoky. I think many of the younger high schoolers are discouraged as it is pretty challenging to go from 14 & U to then step up to what is very likely even tougher competition in Kids State series than they face in HS Varsity qualifying for State by the time they would get to District if they advance. All other age classes are 2 yrs in age difference whereas the HS division is 4 yrs and also combines the 3A,4A,5A & 6A classes. I know many of the possible 16 & Unders simply just dont sign up now. _

I understand what you guys are saying but at that age. They need to be able to welcome the challenge. the old saying "to be the best you have to wrestle the best". And by this time we as coaches have to try to instil the no excuses attitude. They have to be prepared in Highschool to wrestle upper classmen. And they are expected to win no matter what the age. If our kids want to make a run at being 4xers. We have to brain wash that age fear out of them. To me the harder task is theres not classes. Over the years I've seen many kids place in highschool and go 0-2 at kids state. I'm sure thats a little disheartening. But we should expect for it to be tough and try to prepare them for that. After all changing it back comes with challenges too.

i would have to see ALL the numbers, to take a real stance here i guess. i agree with hot rodder 100%, it can only make them better. the trick is making them believe.

i would be surprised if the numbers were down that much. the 14u and 16u brackets are usually pretty small.

i think the pressure needs to be on the HS coaches. isn't it in their best interest to get their kids more mat time?

After looking at the numbers this morning, I think that the High School Division could combine D1/D4, D2/D3 (or even D1/D3, D2/D4) and have a single qualifying tournament for Kids' State. At least that way, more wrestlers will have to wrestle their way into the State bracket. This year's totals from Track Wrestling:

D1 N 105 (Avg 6.5 per weight class)
D1 S 80 (5.0)
D2 N 105 (6.5)
D2 S 53 (3.3)
D3 E 69 (4.3)
D3 W 58 (3.6)
D4 N 49 (3.1)
D4 S 40 (2.5)

Combining D1/D4 totals (Avg of 17.1)
Combining D2/D3 totals (Avg of 17.8)

I realize that some brackets would be much larger than others and this would become a two day event. The best scenario would be to get more participation from the High School kids. There are a lot of U14 Freshmen who choose to wrestle the U14 division which also waters the numbers down. That is their choice and in many cases they probably have to wrestle a lot harder to make it through to Districts than they would if they were in the HS Division.

Not trying to stir anything up, but how many of our stud high school division wrestlers were taken to colorado this weekend to wrestle., rather than wrestle in our state series. This also kills the high school numbers here in Kansas.

Lance Geyer

Since you seem to be concerned with the Rocky Mountain Nationals being the issue why don't you take a poll and see how many high school division kids based their decsion no to wrestle the kids state series on it. Most of the kids were still reeling from HS State, & needing more than 3 days to make the choice. I know my son now regrets his decision not to wrestle.

None, because it's next weekend.

Sure you are or you would not have made the statement. The answer to your question is NONE.

The Rocky Mountain National Team Duals are on March 18, 2011 and the Individual Tournament is March 19 and 20,2011.

RUNNL8 I agree there are more kids not participating due to registration date then they are taking to Colorado. I say change the registration date and if that doesn't change the numbers bracketing for HS may need a change. Does anyone have the break down of numbers/ages for the HS division?

. Oh a funny guy. Doesn't really make since to show up for subs yesterday when they will not be at districts next week, now does it?

Im not even saying it all has to do with the registration date. Im not even sure the wrestlers heading to Colorado would participate even if they were not chosen for the dual teams. I know that some just want the break after the intense HS season. Some are starting track, & baseball and when having to go from one practice to the next can wear a person out. There many different variables as to why they do not continue on into kids wrestling.

We are talking numbers and participation here. And in all reality, by keeping the number of participants of young high school wrestlers buying a club card and participating in the Kids State series it is going to be much better for the interest of our sport in the long run. They are also much more likely to maybe do some Freestyle wrestling in the off season/ summer camps etc ..as they have paid the extra amount for their card. It isn't about making it tough for these kids (at the risk of pussification as some would argue) ...but rather it is about sustaining their interest and possibly rewarding their and parents efforts for keeping them in this great sport. The fact is not every one can be elite and make the podium and many will say "hey, why pay 50 plus bucks to wrestle one tournament?"
I can recall back in my youth in 86-87 when I finished my Kids Federation career by winning Kids State each of my last two years at 16 & U 125 and 16 & U 145-the guys i wrestled in these brackets such as Darren Holbein-Hays,Darrel Andrew-Perry, Jon Ray-Clay Center, Todd Mosher-Topeka Seaman, Brian Hontz-KC Harmon etc were all eventually HS State Champs or Finalist but did we all medal at HS State as a freshman,.. NO--Did we all deserve some reward for our work on the mat that year- YES )--
~ this was when the 16 & U classes where divided by 5 lbs such as 16 & U 120,125,130, 135 etc... we did have FULL brackets to fight through in qualifiers and it (Kids State) served as a stepping stone for underclassmen to garner some hardware, especially ones who may have been say 135 lbs or higher that may not even be Varsity yet or have the elite success on Varsity due to being an underclassmen competing against Juniors and Seniors.
WHY is it such a bad thing to keep the participation numbers up and reward kids ? I guess my main argument against others who feel the need to stiffen things up in KS Wrestling such as one class to determine one true Champion is simply..WHY ?
Yes, it may be easier and more beneficial for the very elite to be recognized by colleges but KSHSAA rewards not just a few but many youth by giving out State medals in the various classes in ALL other sports, so WHY should the demanding sport of Wrestling only reward few because of someones ego that "I am the very best in KS". Our best wrestlers can offset themselves through places like Fargo etc. ~
When i first learned of going from 12 to 14 weight classes and giving medals to 6 placers rather than just 4--i was like "Whoa, this isn't right,.. as there were only 48 placers per class and now they are giving medals to 84" which i felt watered down the significance. But as I thought about it more I realized this was selfish thinking and knew how hard I worked, how much i sacrificed and how good it felt to be a medalist. Bottom line,its about our kids and making them feel good about their efforts. ..even at the risk of pussification. Sorry Will.

If these other sports can recognize many, why should wrestlers who most work HARDER, not also be recognized for their efforts ? So, i guess what I am trying to say is we NEED to recognize these above average freshman and sophomores who may not be on the level of Fargo yet..BUT are still doing well and putting in alot of work.~ They deserve it !
just my thoughts, Kevin Calhoon

So there could be a commitment problem with the HS wrestlers. Sign up for subs then not wrestle on in the series for other larger events.

Sounds like we just need to have them sign up for District meets and forget about the subs. If the numbers don't warrant having them at Subs then why bother? Give them the extra week of break to decide and give coaches the opportunity to get their house in order. What could it hurt. If your worried about seeding then don't just draw seeding and let it go.

I know the middle school kids would appreciate that as well. Just jockying some thoughts.

Hossus,

You are on the right track. One qualifying event for State unless the numbers grow dramatically. I still think that the balance of numbers between the Districts is a problem. Combine them into two "Super Districts" and let the top eight out of each represent at the State Tournament.

You both are correct! There is a commitment problem that not only affects folkstyle, but also affects our Freestyle, & Greco numbers. I also agree that for most going to subs would be a waste of time whereas most weights only had a few wrestlers. But I was looking at some brackets for Pitt. subs & they had a few that had several wrestlers. I dont feel thats its lack of commitment to participate in several sports, some just want to do everything & in this day and age I cannot help but applaud them for doing something instead of sitting at home playing video games, or getting into trouble. Those of us with wrestlers that continue just need to work on getting the others excited about it too.

Great Idea Hossus!!
Let the HS kids come in at Districts! Gives clubs more time to recruit, gives HS kids a little rest, More mat space at districts!
I think keep it at 4 districts but I wouldnt cry if it was two.

highcrotch,

Thank you for wanting to keep it four, but saying that making it two wouldn't be terrible. I was just looking at the numbers, D1 185, D2 158, D3 127 and D4 89. I am not taking anything away from the wrestlers in any of the Districts that came to wrestle. I just think that the numbers are uneven enough to consider combining the Districts to equally represent the number of participants trying to get to State.

Mr. Salyer
As for the dates on the tourn, my bad I was wrong on the dates, but as for the numbers taken from the HS division, I still find it hard to believe this didnt make a difference, These wrestlers were made aware of this back on February 6th, and why would a wreslter want to purchase a kansas card and only wrestle one week which is sub dist, if they were going to wrestle in this Rocky Mountain National tourn. which is held the same our Kansas district tournaments. and as for stirring things up Richard, I promise you i am not trying this i was simply asking the question of how many of these athletes would have wreslted in the kids series if this would not have been presented to them.

RUNNL8,
I am sorry, but your saying that these kids need a break that is why they are not wreslting kids series, well i hope they have been working hard in the practice room, and not taking that break as you are saying, or Kansas, may look foolish in this RMN Tourn.

I also like the thought process here. But I think 4 didtricts is the magic number but back fill empty spots with 5th and 6th place finishers.
Use the state pairings to set as a priority for the back fill.
If its 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and there's an open spot in D2 the D3 gets 1st option to fill it with its 5th place person.
If there's 2 spots the you go thru all the 5th place people and the thru the 6th place people.
I like the ideas here!

Mr. Geyer, at no time did I say they need the break, I just implied that some WANT or WOULD LIKE the break. Im quite sure those representing Kansas have NOT taken a break, and as far as Kansas looking foolish, I think we will be well represented. Thank you to all that have put in all the hard work organizing a team for this National tournament to make ensure our state progresses in the sport & gives the other wrestlers something to work towards.

I personally know of one HS STATE CHAMPION that was signed up for subs and then withdrew because he was offered a spot on the dual team., so yes it does affect the state series.

RUNNL8,
Knowing some of these athletes i am sure they have worked extremely hard in the practice room so they can represent Kansas wrestling well at this tournament. These wrestlers have always been hard workers or they would not have had the success they have had in their career. But in your earlier statement you said that some of these kids needed a break (not in those exact words) that is why they are not in the kids series. I was simply saying that is not the reason they are not wrestling kids, the reason some of these athletes are not wrestling the Kansas series is because they were presented with this event, therefore the high-school numbers are down, which is what this thread is about. I wish the kids on this Kansas team the best of luck and i know they will represent Kansas well!!

These are my exact words.

Exactly, some are wanting to take a "break" after the long intense high-school season... point made from my earlier post