why middle school wrestling?

Why do kids club kids go to middle school wrestling? You only get 10-15 matches in a 3 month period, instead of 40+ matches in kids club. Imop..kids that are looking for a new sport do middle school wrestling...Kids that transfer into middle school from kids club thrive..but don't get better... Come subs they have great records; (kids club kids)...but how hard were their matches??? As coaches we work with these kids from an early age on; just to lose them in middle school...Something needs to be looked at on this matter......Kids club is losing too many good kids to Jr.high wrestling....Any thoughts??

Spexy,
I totally agree with you on this subject. My son will not be doing middle school this year, his choice. I think until KSHSAA takes the barriers off our athletes you will continue to see this. Why is it so wrong for kids, who want to wrestle middle school, not get to go and wrestle other non school tournaments that will have tougher competition? I don't get it and can't understand why it is that way. Speaking from experience folks, don't waste your time and energy wrestling middle school unless your son wants to. I know that some leagues are tougher than others but middle school wrestling doesn't come close to the competition your son will get by going to the national tournaments...jmo

Exactly coach...
Thanks for helping me out on this matter....A wise man once said " To be the best you have to wrestle the best."....Most won't get that in Jr.high wrestling...

I'm stuggling with this issue. I understand that top kids wrestlers will find it difficult to find quality matches at middle school competitions. I also believe that some kids practices may be tougher and more organized to teach advanced level wrestling skills than middle school practices. But I don't think we want to totaly bash middle school wrestling. I think middle school wrestling can bring new kids into our sport that have not had the opportunity to experience wrestling. Middle school wrestling can also give wrestlers that have not had much success in kids wrestling a chance to be a really good middle school wrestler. I support middle school wrestling for those reasons. Now to improve our situation kansas kids wrestling needs to work together with KSHAA to improve the quality and quantity of wrestling at the middle school level. If KSHAA will listen!!!!!! My son is not wrestling middle school because his school does not have wrestling as a sport so we will wrestle kids for another two years. Daryl Lucas

The only conduit we have to KSHSAA is our AD's. Do they care? Will they listen to a parent? The number one change we need to make is to allow our HS Coaches to be on the mat with, go to tournaments with, and coach their wrestlers in March, April, and May. The pigskin coaches get their athletes all summer why can't wrestling coaches have this prime time with those who WANT to continue improving past the end of the season? The open rooms that many HS coaches promote are generally a small band aid over a gaping sore. KS is falling behind and this ONE change could lead to marked improvement in a short time. I might not be as smart as the Administrations and KSHSAA but I would love to debate this issue with them. It is the most important change we could ask for. And yes KSHSAA needs to back off MS wrestling so that club wrestlers could do both to develop the team concept and they would improve the level of practice and competition in the MS leagues. What is wrong with going to OPEN events during the MS season if the team is not attending an event?

Middle school wrestling is some athletes first exposure to the sport so it is important. For some it is practice right after the school day lets out or just the timing of when these kids can get to a practice and get picked up after school. In many cases it may not be as competitive as club wrestling - but it can still serve as a stepping stone to high school wrestling and can be very valuable. Some towns/cities only have middle school wrestling and no clubs - that may be the case in some towns. Also, there are costs to consider - fees, uniforms, travel, etc., - in many cases middle school wrestling may be the only viable option where the school districts can provide a coach, practice facility, dual meets, etc. Middle school can offer the value of a team concept with duals and tournament scoring.
Some exposure is better then no exposure to the sport.

I agree completely with all of your opinions my school does have middle school wrestling but doesn't get more than 6 or 7 kids and they aren't even grouped in weight classes they just mix and match the closest weights.

I'm going to vent here guys,...

Can someone explain why some Kansas schools start wrestling before the first of the year and other schools wrestle after the first of the year? This absolutely kills the level of competition available.

We (Pratt), start our season after the first of the year. We have 7 events planed, nothing local, travel to the same town 3 times (quad,triangular, tourn.), and will more than likely compete against that same team the other 4 events. I would assume the reason we will see the same team over and over is because alot of schools in our area have changed and are wrestling before the first of the year. Did I mention there isn't anything scheduled here in Pratt and we go somewhere else 3 times...............wow.

I've always tried to convince our 7th and 8th graders to wrestle for the middle school, but after seeing this schedule I can understand why a parent would decide not to. I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but I needed a place to vent. Maybe I should talk to our H.S. coach and AD, but nobody wants to be that guy (that pain in a$$ parent that is always stirring the pot). Did I mention we'll more than likely see the same team at every scheduled event, and that we dont have anything scheduled locally?

My son will wrestle middle school. He actually has several of his friends that have never wrestled saying they are going to give it a try. I'm not saying my son is the reason they are going out, but it sure isn't going to hurt.


Rules that need changed..

1- allow the kids to compete with their kids clubs on weekends when the school doesn't have anything planned.

2- get all of Kansas middle schools to start their season prior to the first of the year so the kids can have 2-3 solid months to finish with their kids clubs.

Greg Pelland

One very important aspect to middle school wrestling is the team aspect. Up to this point they don't have any exposure to wrestling as a team. Which is very important in high school and college.

Also you have to have a good coach. And I don't mean a good football coach that fills in. I mean a good wrestling coach. Where I am from we have a great wrestling coach in middle school and an outstanding high school coach that work together for one goal.


Just a few years ago I frowned upon middle school because it took kids from a lot of matches. And it wasn't taken serious. If you add a good middle school coach it would solve a lot of peoples thoughts on middle school.

It has taken some time but things are looking up for Middle school.

Good points from all of you.

But want if you're in a large school system, where there are more than 1 middle school?? These kids are separated...and have few partners..School loyalty is big to a lot of kids, but how good does it make you...Will Cokeley hit it on the head...No event that weekend..let them wrestle club...Just sucks they can't be in the club practice room...And how good are Jr. High coaches; or do they talk to the high school coach on what to work on for upcoming freshmen...things to ponder...

Greg,

In the Leavenworth and Lansing schools the middle school wrestling season goes from Nov to Dec. Only about 6 weeks long. I prefer this time because the kids can then do the bulk of the kids folkstyle season. The advantage I see is that the high school coaches also coach the middle school kids. This helps them to get to know the kids and work with them before they get into high school.

It also gives a lot of kids the opportunity to try wrestling. We end up with a lot of kids wrestling in high school because they realize they are not one of the "chosen 10" for the basketball program so they come and wrestle. They do this because they could do both in middle school.

I fully acknowledge that these kids aren't the kids that are going to be multiple time state champs but it does help build depth to the wrestling program. Concur that it would be nice if the kids could do both middle school and practice with the clubs.

The number one rule I would like to see changed is that the high school coaches could work with the kids outside of the wrestling season.

Shawn Budke

One other aspect is parnters, if you can get a middle schoold program with good experienced kids then you are ok. From what I have seen you will be practicing those 6-7 weeks with beginners and novice type kids.

I have elected not to have my 7th grader do middle school, if they would allow us to hit the 3-4 tough tournament a year than I would be more inclined to do it.

There are dual tournaments out there for them to participate in to get the team aspect.

Everyone is bashing on the KSHSAA rules. "Let the coaches coach during the off season." Okay, you might have a point but if KSHSAA is really going to go with this then football team will get spring ball. In a lot of states the football teams play 7 on 7 and then spring-ball in the "off-season." Some states have actual practice and games (scrimmages) against other schools during this time.

If Kansas coaches can coach during March, April and May that would be great but here is my problem with that: It creates an unfair advantage between small schools and private/large schools.

Here is why: a small school shares athletes with football, baseball, etc...Now the small school wrestling team loses those kids during that time. Where as large schools(and certain private schools) have more students that are not multi-sport kids. All of these one sport kids now get more mat time.

I know your thinking, "what does it matter? That is why we have classifications." But my real beef with this is the private schools where kids move in to wrestle. Now these kids are getting more mat while other kids in their classification are having to participate in other sports. I think if KSHSAA does this then lets put all private schools in one class.

You guys want KSHSAA to be like every other state but most states have their own class for private schools. That way "Blair Academy" can't compete in "public 3A" and win state every singal year.

I just want a little equality with my competition that's all.

The more I think about it, if KSHSAA lets football and wrestling coaches coach in the spring how many kids will give up wrestling all together for football? Now the sport of wrestling just took a huge numbers hit. How does that help competition? The very thing we wanted in the first place.

You want to take the freedom to choose away in the spirit of leveling the playing field by holding those who want to excel down? Does that really make sense? "If we cannot compete then lets create rules and regulations to take the freedom to choose away" to paraphrase what you have stated. If coaches want to work with their kids and their wrestlers CHOOSE to work with them then it should be allowed. FS/GR are different styles anyway. Your small school athletes have the freedom to choose whether they play other sports or just wrestle. No one makes them play.

What is your private school beef? Here again you want to take the freedom to choose away! WE private school parents pay a hefty premium to attend the limited number of these institutions in KS. We also pay ALL of our share of taxes that fund YOUR public schools. In effect, WE are lessening the burden on YOUR education system so you should be thankful.

It really is all about choice. You can be the best wrestler you want to be or you can play five sports and sacrifice the highest level you could have obtained.

Kansas Socialism for High School Athletics Association. What a joke.

Then answer this for me, how come other states have there own class for private schools? How come Blair Academy isn't in a public school class?

You're the one that wants kansas to be like everyone else.

We can explore this in depth if you would like but lets start with the very small number of private schools in Kansas. There are zero currently competing in 6A. Then lets jump to the fact that Blair is a prep school which recruits from all over not just a private, parochial school which normally draw students only from a small area. Then lets talk about how some states offer a break for parents who pay for private school so they aren't saddled with paying for both public and private when they don't utilize the public school. Private schools in KS do NOT have an advantage other than they draw the most motivated families so that don't have to deal with the public school red tape and b.s. They work together instead of fighting each other. They are more efficient in their spending and teaching. You tell me what your issue is? Be specific. Then tell us who you are.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was talking to the official spokesmen on behalf of all private schools. I didn't realize I needed to formally declare my issues with you.

I have no beef with you. I do not have to tell YOU what my issue is (even though I already stated it). I am just one person with an opinion. Which I recall is a freedom of choice. It is my choice to remain anonymous. This form does not require a name. You, who were so big on "choice", will not even allow a person to share an opinion without taking it personal and calling them out.

Ksu,
I think you need to change the way you look at things. Basically what you are saying is since small school kids play several sports and are unable or unwilling to wrestle with their high school coaches then nobody should be able too. Thats almost a communist view on things, i get sick of people crying that its not fair because the city kids have more opportunities, correct me if im wrong but is anybody making these people live where they are and if not its their choice to give up some things in order to live there.Who cares if kids move to private schools in order to wrestle and get a good education that is their choice. Your family could always attend a private school if you think someone is gaining a unfair advantage by going there.

The only thing that is communist here is the form of censorship on this thread. "You need to change the way you look at things"? That almost sounds like a threat from "Big Brother." I'm sorry I ever even shared MY personal opinion. Apparently this is not a public forum. It is only for those that are like minded while anyone else is not welcome.

??

Leave it up to the athlete 1 or 2 sports... Wrestle MS or stay in kids...I didn't taint Jonny's mind with any negitive opinions. Went over the PRO's & CON's and intend to leave it up to him. As of now he doesn't intend to wrestle MS cause he doesn't want to miss Tulsa, his reg practice & friends. I'm sure the MS coach will convince him to wrestle by next year but it'll be up to Jonny. He quit football said he was concentrating on wrestling. Talked to him then supported him and applaud his drive.

As for "team" aspect he was on at least 5 Dual teams last year and loves doing it alot. But I don't know he'd find the same pleasure in a Dual of few seasoned and most are new wrestlers. We went to a HS reginal last year he and I were both suprised by the level of competion. Now if he choose not to wrestle HS I'll be devistated but will not make him

Our experience with Jr. High/Middle School wrestling was very positive. We were fortunate to be in a solid program that wrestled some quality competition for seven weeks in November/December and had an exceptional coach. If all programs had our fortune, Middle School wrestling numbers and level of competition would grow across the state. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever be the case. Either way, the team concept of Middle School wrestling can be a great experience for a club wrestler on the verge of competing at the high school level.

I coach Middle School and I did club for many years. I love the middle school set up but I do agree that everybody in Kansas should be on the same schedule. It is also correct that I bring in so many new kids to the sport and some of them go on to compete at the highest level in High School. Some of my wrestlers never wrestled club but go on to be State Placers at the High School level. I push for those kids to continue their seasons after ours by doing regionals and freestyle/Greco in the summer. One particular wrestler went out his seventh grade year and fell in love with it and attended two camps this summer. That is the good news for a people who love club... in our league you still get to do the Wichita Classic and Regional s and so on... However, to answer the question that was posed at the beginning of this thread... Why Middle School... in our case at Newton, because it's fun. I know that club tournaments can be fun too and I am not accusing Club wrestling of not being fun. However, these kids love being a part of our program, enjoy the coaching, enjoy the training and love the wrestling. I am sure that there are more matches and better matches in club if your willing to pay and travel but we are having some of the best and most competitive matches right in our own wrestling room every day. All I do for club kids is release them back out on the circuit in the best shape of their young lives with a few more skills and some well drilled fundamentals. Many club wrestlers have traveled through my room and I suppose you should ask them... do they regret it? Do they think it hurt them? I'll leave up to you to decide whats best for your child. Meanwhile, we'll keep having fun.

I think that I can answer this question about as well as anyone. Several years ago, I pushed very hard to have the JH season in our part of the state moved to the early season. I did this for two essential reasons. First and foremost, I feel that it is in the best interest of HS wrestling. By wrestling the JH season early, it allows the more dedicated kids to continue on to the large tournaments after Christmas. Our season is actually over on December 3rd this year, so it allows most of December as well. Just as importantly, in my opinion, it begins to instill the philosophy of TEAM at the junior high level. We were understandably losing most of our best wrestlers to the kids program, and the JH program was watered down to the point that it was tough to watch. Now, the vast majority of good kids are in their JH teams, and tournaments are MUCH tougher. To be honest, I want to puke when I hear that wrestling is an individual sport. It's not. When it gets down to it, kids will wrestle harder for their TEAM than they will for just themselves. Nothing is more important than that. I would take a team championship any day over an individual one. The philosophy of ME FIRST is a selfish one. Will wrestling the junior high season for 6 weeks in October and November with your future high school team mates hurt you when it comes to college recruiting? Give me a freaking break! An advanced kid has from the middle of December through most of the summer to wrestle for himself.

This year, most of our 31 wrestlers are first year 7th graders. We will take a beating early. We have a few experienced kids, but very few. Thats just our situation right now. Hopefully most of these kids will stay out through high school and create competition and depth in the room. That's our goal. For some kids, we put a huge emphasis on winning. For some, tomorrow we just hope that they have learned enough not to put their ankle band on their wrist the first time they step on the mat at Goodland. Either way, we are going to try convince them that the toughest sport in high school athletics has value that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives. I guess the bottom line is this. I see JH wrestling as a feeder program to the HS, and I hope to see it build and prosper. Carlos, I also think that if Michael were here, he would be in the JH program. I would bribe you!
Rick Cue
Ulysses

To me there are two major issues with MS (it is no longer JH anywhere in KS. All FR are no in HS throughout the entire state).

1. Standardize the season and make it early. One league continues a week past the end of the KSHSAA HS season.
2. Deregulate the participation restriction. Allow wrestlers to club practice in addition to if they so desire. Let them go to clinics if they so desire. If their team is not competing on a weekend then allow them to compete in open tournaments.

and a bonus
3) Allow coaches to coach outside of the season. If a kid wants to be coached and a coach is willing to devote his time to the kid or a club then let it happen. No wrestling coach in the state will get away with MANDATING practices outside of the season. It might be a team sport but it is very individual as far as motivation and establishing who is the best.

The greatest attribute of wrestling is that the wrestlers determine who is on varsity. The best at each weight. Leave the politics and booster club babies out of the equation. If Johnny wants to wrestle whatever weight and he beats all of the others then he is the starter whether he is a FR or a SR.

The biggest detriment to improvement of wrestling in KS is the restriction placed on coaches not allowing contact from March through May.

Wrestling is an individual sport the team consept is irrelevant. Wrestlers will get plenty of that when they get to highsckool. Its not that important at this level but being able to compeat is. So I say do what is going to make them the best they can be. In my opinion the more matches the better and your not going to get that through middle sckool. Just an opinion

Will, I don't think that the standardized season in JH (MS) will never happen. It should. There are probably too many schools where basketball runs things and it may interfere with the gym usage. Not saying I agree, not by any means, but I think that's factual. I wish it wasn't that way, but I think that is the main reason that many small town middle schools out west haven't gone to the early season. I agree with everything that you say. Until things change, it really helps to have the best club coaches that you can. It's a HUGE difference maker. Personally, I think I'm getting close to hanging up the whistle and spending more time chasing the big deer with the stick and string. I have a pretty good idea of what is relevant. I've been in this sport in one way or another for a very long time. I can't be convinced that one dedicated wrestler is more important to society in general than a full team...a band of brothers...pulling together. I feel pretty strongly about that.

Well when your on the mat your brothers can't help you. If you could get alot more matches middle sckool would be find in my opinion but theirs a big difference between 10 and 40. And the competition is alot higher in kids club. Just an opinion.

Bill Zadick spoke about this particular subject at the KWCA coach's clinic. Mr. Zadick had some great insight and thoughts about what we are doing as a nation to our young wrestlers that might be putting us at a disadvantage on the international level. It was really quite interesting and this thread was even mentioned. It would be nice if I could find a transcript of his talk today or even an editorial written by him because he did a great job of putting it all in perspective. I couldn't do it justice to take up his argument here but he does somewhat support the idea of more practice and training and less matches.

Very well said.

Rick,
So your saying I should make my son wrestle middle school even though he doesn't want to? There are things that you should and shouldn't force on your kids and in our case wrestling middle school is not one of them. I don't think this decision will affect his well being.

I totally get and understand the team concept thing and so does my son. To clear things up about wrestling with his future high school team mates, well he can't because he will be attending a different high school next year, at least I hope so.

As far as being selfish? Well we'll let all of you be the judge of that. Last time I checked they didn't give out a team championship or individual championship for middle school wrestling. As a parent/coach I will guide and support my son down the road that he wants to take in wrestling. This year HE decided not to wrestle middle school and I will support him.

Finally, something to ponder:
Would you rather have wrestled double digit matches and won every one without being scored upon and totally dominating your opponents? or Wrestle that same number of matches and having lost a few along the way and being pushed in the others?

I do think Kansas has too many restrictions on athletes playing sports during a specific sport season, ie not being able to wrestle in a club and school at the same time. As for the arguement over public schools and private schools, that was a bit disappointing. You have one person debating equality, and the other person taking it too personal by sending attacking responses by claiming he "pays his taxes" "lessening the burden on public schools", and Private schools having more or motivated parents...Hog-wash...that is nonsense. We all know this private school vs public school issue is out there and there are some convincing issues to it. To me, that's not the issue.

The issue is athlete development. Why restrict? Yes, it could be a person's only means of particpating or his first time wrestling...Okay....so let's restrict the others.

If you want a change, get someone to lobby for it...

Carlos, I understand your points completely. I think that your situation may be a little unique, to be sure. You don't get better by wrestling weaker competition. We have all seen the wrestler with a huge record fall aside quickly in regionals. I think that you may even see more of that with all of the dual tournaments and so many open weight classes in the small school tournaments. I think I had two state champions back in the 90's with double digit losses. I am probably a little biased since I am coaching middle school now. I don't think that you can have a top 5 high school program without having a great kids club. The competition was MUCH better last year after going to the early season.

One last point. Someone stated that your "brothers" can't help you on the mat. Think about this...You are only as good as your "brothers". Who would I pick to win this state championship match. A kid with a 30-5 record off of a team with ten qualifiers and a chance at a state team title, or an undefeated kid off a team with 2 qualifiers?

I think I will shut up now and watch this thread.

It was good to see you and Michael last night.

I posted this last year on the same type of MS wrestling v. Club Wrestling post around February or so, shortly after we came back from Tulsa with the boy feeling a lil disappointed:



I still feel the same way. Have to say though I know others have different circumstances, I am not coaching my own boy in HS wrestling. Also Lawrence South MS wrestling is the feeder program for Lawrence High, we were pretty fortunate to be involved with them. But in the end, Win or lose I still think it's about the journey and what they learn from it. Just my experience. On the plus side, the boys back with some old workout partners in HS and fired up to represent his High School he's loved before he even started wrestling!

Good luck to everyone this year and I am pretty exicited to see some good HS wrestlers on the mat!

Bronson,

I am glad you re-posted that information as I must have missed it last year. I am glad that Tristan is now in the HS wrestling room (not to mention that his dad will be at most if not all of his competitions - I hope). It should be a lot of fun.