DAD NEEDS ADVICE

I was looking for some advice on how some of the parents out there would handle the situation that my son tayton and I are facing. First and foremost I have no problem with girls wrestling a matter a fact I have seen some girls that are very very good. I want to make thata clear.
Tayton told me many years ago that if he ever had to wrestle a girl that he would not do it, since taht time I havn't had to worry about that b/c he has never been put in that situation until now. At subs there are only 2 kids in 82 pound weight class tayton and a girl. His exact words were " I will not wrestle a girl no matter if it is at subs or for a state title the bible says to treat woman with respect" I believe that he will not wrestle her at subs and I am not sure how to handle this. Tayton has 2 losses on the year and has as good of a chance as anybody to do very well at Topeka. I respect his decision and it says alot for a 11 yr old boy to think that way. WHAT WOULD YOU DO

He should wrestle whoever is in his bracket, otherwise, he shouldn't wrestle. As a wrestler, you are on the mat to compete against whoever you face. Otherwise, he will avoid the wrestler who has no legs, is blind, deaf or mentally challenged. I am not saying that a female wrestler is equivalent to any of these scenarios, I am just saying that a wrestler is on the mat to compete to the best of their ability, regardless of who their opponent is.

If he doesn't wrestle her in my eyes that would be showing great disrespect to her. Have you tried to explain it that way? She is out there and wants to wrestle who ever else is put out there. Very disrespectful, but I am sure he is not seeing it through her eyes. Try and explain it that way and good luck to you all!

Very good point. I think that is what I was trying to say, but you said it better. Respect your opponent, whoever your opponent may be.

I respect his choice with what he is feeling, but I feel if he refuses to wrestle her that he would be showing disrespect toward her and the sport of wreslting. I know Tayton, and he is a very tough wrestler, I would hate for him to miss out on his chance of a high placing at the state championships due to something like this. I have two nieces that wrestle, and both of them are tough wrestlers, I can promise you that they dont care if they wrestle a boy or a girl, they are going out on the mat and facing another wrestler no matter the gender. Good Luck in teh next 3 tournaments no matter what his decision is.

Lance Geyer

I would say that you have one solid 11 year old son.

The boy made the right choice. Winning is not worth the price one must pay for going against their conscience, and in this case, the boy was not only thinking of the girls’ safety, but of what he considered appropriate and he stuck to those principles. Throughout scripture, you see clear distinctions about the way men should treat women. A blast double and a hard cross face conflict with those examples.

I applaud him.

I too admire his convictions! So he takes 2nd in the bracket and moves on to District! Once there he will be on the opposite side of her. If they meet in the finals at District ... once again they will be on opposite sides. If they end up in the State finals and he sticks to his convictions, I for one will stand and applaud him!

He got those convictions from somebody. He feels so strong if you try too hard to convince to put those aside, it might not turn out well.

I understand the ‘respect your opponent no matter what that gender’ (race, height, no discrimination) argument, however can Tayton be FORCED to wrestle her? Not really.

Let’s just pretend you get him to go out on the mat to ‘wrestle’ her. He does not want to be there. So, he just sticks his hand out for a 'shake', the whistle blows, he lets her headlock him and throw him to the mat for a quick and easy pin because he just does not care. Then of course, he storms off of the mat that you MADE him go on to . . . quite possibly to never return to that mat EVER again.

Is the above, really worth all of that? How many high school girl state champions (and I mean no disrespect to girls wrestling boys – I admire their courage) do you know that are wrestling with young men? “None” would be my answer after being around wrestling for about 40 years.

As a parent (and a teacher) I would talk to him at a calm moment in a very soft voice and say something to this effect (and the shorter the better):

“Son, I love you and always will no matter what. As you may or may not know, sometimes in life we have to make some very hard decisions. Some people like to make life a very B/W kind of thing. Rarely is it that way (give a few examples to him if you want).”

Then take the role as a CONSULTANT, rather than an over-controlling parent – it’s his life. Let him make his choices. This does not involve something legal or illegal (I will not get into the ethical nature of the situation because I believe it varies from person to person).

“Son, do you mind if I go over some things that you might not have thought of regarding wrestling that girl?” If he says, "sure Dad. Let’s talk about it."

THEN, he is teachable at that moment, on this subject. So, do what a consultant would do. Show him as many options and possible consequences of his actions. Teach him about respect. Teach him about empathy. Be a good therapist. Ask him lots of questions in a kind way, not threaten, guilt-producing questions.

Basically, the choice is his. You CANNOT FORCE HIM TO WRESTLE. That just simply makes no logical sense. Think about it. Saying with a FIRM VOICE, "You will wrestle her, and you will try your best! Do you understand me boy?!" That is an unenforceable statement. It is unenforceable because you cannot control his arms, legs, body.

Here is an ENFORCEABLE statement,” if you do not clean up your room, then I will NOT give you your weekly allowance.”

I'm writing 'all over the place' due to several distractions going on around me. I am sorry about that.

In a nutshell, it is his life. You cannot force him to wrestle. If you did 'force' him to wrestle, what will it do emotionally, long-term to him? Are you willing to potentially pay that big of price? Yes, it is sad for the girl and I think he should be told this. But you are responsible for your son, not her (that is her parent’s job). It will not be the first time (or last) that something like this has/will happen to her. It is just a simple, hard fact of life that any girl in her situation will have to deal with this kind of thing often.

I have empathy for all involved. Often times in life, hard - hard decisions have to be made. Life is tough. Thankfully however, it is not a life or death decision.

Many, many teachable moments here. Good luck and love you boy and respect his decision is what I would do.

Martin Luther (of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s – not the one of the 1960’s) put it well:

“To go against one’s own conscience is neither safe nor wise.” Well, something like that, again my three noisy daughters are driving me nuts right now as I type this. But they are kids and I am choosing at this moment to do what kids do and NEED to do, have fun, release some energy.

Anyway the loose paraphrase is still valid. It seems like your son has a serious conviction about this situation. Therefore, I believe to try to get him to go against it, would be, “neither safe nor wise.”

That is just my long-winded two cents worth. My apologies for not being able to put my thoughts together in a more concise manner.

Please keep me informed. As a human and a teacher and a parent, I am very interested in how all this plays out. You could PM me if you didn't want to share with the whole board.

However, if you never want to communicate with me ever again in any fashion, I will think no less of you. I respect your right to never communicate with me ever again, if that is what you chose. Freedom is a cool thing. Even for little boys, growing up to be young men. We learn a lot from freedom. And what is the opposite of freedom? And how much does a slave learn? Things to think about. Again, I wish all involved the best. Sincerely.

You don't have to wrestle your opponent. You can forfeit. It's a personal choice. This came up last year, I think an Iowa kid had a big match that he forfeited because of his religious beliefs. There is a school in Kansas that won't let their kids wrestle girls. If your religion insists that men and women don't touch each other, then do what your religion commands.

And beyond religion, there's the physical contact issue and I understand that. If a boy is personally uncomfortable with touching a female as required by the nature of sport, don't do it. We avoid uncomfortable situations in life all the time.

I would ask your son to consider his decision from the girl's perspective if he has that leeway. She obviously doesn't think its disrespectful so is it? If some people are offended by a certain action, but I'm not, your action in my presence is not offensive to me. So wrestling a girl, who is out for wrestling, is not disrespectful to her, as a general proposition. In fact, some have argued that wrestling her is actually a sign of respect. If the Bible says "respect" women, how does avoiding a female wrestler show her respect? Hasn't she worked hard to be there just like you? Haven't her parents and friends shown up to cheer her on? Hasn't her coach spent his time getting her ready? So when she steps out of the mat to wrestle, she's told that she doesn't get to wrestle because he opponent has "too much respect for women?" Don't be surprised if she doesn't see it that way....

ask him if he was on the football team and the played a team with a girl on it would he not play same with basketball she chose the sport as of u i would tell him she has wrestled for a few years i know my son wrestles her its a tough deal but not wrestling her might show her that she not wanted and we dont want that either if he has to wrestle her different fine but his choice hope he does well hope to see at state

Tayton stick with GOD he won't miss lead you, and I will also stand and applaud you. Its your choice and it sounds like you can live with it. Dad don't misguide your son here, its his choice and you should be greatly proud of him. Doesn't mean disrepect it means great respect with his beliefs.

This happened at the 4A state tourney last year. Krista Revelle was supposed to wrestle someone on the backside of the bracket, but due to his beliefs he forfeited to her, thus putting himself out of the bracket.

Nicely done young man!! Guys the reason he is using is the farthest from being disrespectful to this young lady!! A pastor once told me that if you listen long enough, the Holy Spirit will give you all the answers you seek...sounds to me that your son is an excellent listener and is sticking to his morals and values...of which you should be very proud...nicely done on your part as well!! Good luck to you and your son...I think he has answered your question for you!!

This is crazy. You wrestle your next opponent. Boy\girl\man\woman\green/red whatever, if they signed up to wrestle then so be it. No disrespect, but you wrestle with the same intensity that you would any match. Not a question Dad!

They do have girls tournaments that are very respectable!!

stand up for your son's belief's, no matter what opinion's are offered on here. i would try and tell him it's ok to wrestle a female wrestler but if he is still against it tell him it's ok and support him.

there is no sport in the world worth going against your belief's. have him walk on the mat shake hands and walk off the mat and take the loss and move on to district's and maybe he won't run into her again.

i know some people are saying you are showing disrespect, but what's does it say when you go against your belief's to show respect to someone else but disrespect yourself.

what ever this young man decide's there aint no wrong in what ever he dicides tell him to keep his head high no matter what anyone's opinion is. jmo

dean i think you are wrong about there never being no girl high school state champions.

ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- Michaela Hutchison became the first girl in the nation to win a state high school wrestling title while competing against boys.

Hutchison won the final of the 103-pound weight class during Alaska's big school wrestling championships. The Skyview High sophomore entered the state tournament ranked No. 1 in her weight class.

if i am right i think there are a few more girls that have won high school state titles.

No 'thinking' about it. I was wrong. Thank you for the correction.

Impressive! Good for her.

It appears (I'm more careful with my words and statements now!) that it has been done a total of three times (including the one you listed above).

All at 103 pounds. 3 champs from two different states.


Still. . . good for them. What courage!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/sports/28wrestling.html?pagewanted=all

Anyway . . . none of this has much to do with the original intent of this thread. The intent (from my understanding!) was a 'conviction/conscience/ethical' concern, not a skill level kind of thing.

But anyway . . . thank you for the correction. We now know that at least three girls have won high school state championships.

My son also has a girl in his sub bracket. When he steps onto the mat and wrestles her just as he would any other opponent, does that mean he doesn't respect women. Anytime this has come up with either of my boys I have given them the same answer. She worked as hard or harder than you to get here. Wrestle your best and may the best wrestler win.

Absolutely not! It isn't even close to being disrespectful to women...this particular young man has his beliefs just like everyone else on here has their's...why can't he make this decision and not essentially be called a coward...I think he is a very courageous young man for going against what seems to be the norm of this thread and sticking to his guns!! Not one person has questioned the ability of this young lady...it is just his personal understanding of Scripture and he should be applauded for keeping his faith...not degraded for making a stand!!

Sounds good to me. But specifically the Dad that started the thread said that his son doesn't want to wrestle her, primarily for religious reasons (I believe).

So, I think the real question is 'should' a parent 'force' a kid to not abide by their own convictions? What kind of message does that send to a kid?

And, as someone else on here wisely stated, some boys just flat out don't feel comfortable touching girls in certain areas of their bodies. That is understandable.

I understand life is not a bowl of cherries and that we all have to do things we don't like all the time but I think the bigger questions here are:

Should we make a young man wrestle someone of the opposite gender even if it is against their religious convictions?

And, if we do the above, are we as a parent ready, willing, wanting and able to deal with all the emotional problems that young man might possibly get as a result of being forced or 'guilted into' something against his convictions?

Wrestling is a sport that teaches you lessons for life. Tayton is a really neat kid and great wrestler. As long as whatever he takes away from this is a positive then it is the right decision for both of you. I have always told my kid that no matter who puts their foot on that line across from you they deserve your respect and best effort. Look forward to seeing you guys at Districts.

Since I am a female, I will give my 2 cents worth. I think your son needs to consider his definition for having respect for women. Is it based on how he would like to treat women, or is it based on how women want to be treated? This is something that he will face later in life also. If he is in the military, will he not be able to treat female soldiers as equals? If he is in a position to hire someone for a physical job, will he refuse to hire a woman and then face discriminatory charges? Those may be far-fetched examples, but it's all about the mindset. Show respect for those girls/women who want and deserve to be treated as equals.

Thank you for all your thoughts. I sat down with Tayton and let him no that no matter what he chooses to do that it would not make him a coward nor will it make him less of a young man. At the end of the day it is his decision and I WILL NOT FORCE HIM TO STEP ON THE MAT!! if he wrestles her I will be proud of him if he walks over to the table and scratches I will be proud of him. Thanks again

I am sure we all want to know how this whole thing ends. Keep us posted.

How can you be disrespectful to a girl by wrestling her? She chose to wrestle. She knows that she may be tied up like a pretzel.(or that she may tie someone up like a pretzel) She knows the "risks" before she steps on the mat. Now, if a boy was standing in the middle of a wrestling mat, and some gal accidentally wanders onto the middle of the mat, the boy heard a whistle somewhere (me whistling at a hot novice mom), and blasted her and roughed her up, then that might be considered abusive..................Go try to kick her butt, just like she is going to try to kick your son's butt.....

I thought Momma Eck took your whistler away!

Perfect! BIG GRIN!!!

Nope, she still slaps me........which is kind of the reverse of this topic.........she should treat me better than that.......

What if he just feels extremely uncomfortable grabbing and cluctching a girl due to her having a different anotomy than him? How about respecting his right to wrestle whoever he wants to wrestle? I respect her right to wrestle whoever she does or does not want to wrestle.

Freedom is a good thing. What is the opposite of freedom?

We have had the pleasure of meeting tayton on the mat...Top notch kid for sure. And now reading this and wondering to myself am I teaching my boys right?? Who knows. But i would respect their wishes in any life affecting matter..

we respect you tayton regardless of the decision you make. It takes a man to make a choice like he is. And you will be rewarded for it as well.

Cya in goodland.

Dean - the boy's father stated that his son did not want to wrestle the girl because of an issue of respect for her. Now if the problem is in fact that the boy is uncomfortable because of anatomy or sexuality or whatever, then I find that perfectly understandable and I would respect his feelings. I am sure that plenty of boys don't want to be 'grabbing and clutching' other boys either - and it is their right to not choose wrestling (lol). Whether male or female, it is by nature a contact sport.

Hi Wildcat,

When the father first posted, here is part of what he wrote:


His exact words were " I will not wrestle a girl no matter if it is at subs or for a state title the bible says to treat woman with respect"

Dean now says . . . if you'd like, go back to page 1 and read Chief's and usawks1 responses. I agree with their responses 100% and they said it in a much more concise manner than me. I tend to get to rambling . . .

Enough said. There appears to be two camps. B/W camps. I can respectfully agree that we disagree and that all the arguing in the world will not change any bodies mind on the topic.

I think the Dad made the right choice.

Freedom!!! Convictions!!! Those are what made are country great . . . and a lack of those two things (the gov't is TOOO BIIIGGG) is one of the main reasons we are in the big mess that this nation is currently in.

OK. I'm rambling again. STOP. Grin.

Take care.

It has been said countless times on here that wrestling teaches life lessons like no other sport, yet then the same people say "wrestle your opponent, its part of the sport no matter who it is". Seems to me this young man has already learned some pretty big life lessons much more important than a wrestling match at 11 years old, and is acting on what he has learned. Let the boy carry out his beliefs whatever they are and what matters more than anyone on here's opinion is that his dad is obviously letting him stand up for what he believes and has his back. Great job Mr. Teeter on the morals and beliefs you have instilled in your son and even better having his back when he acts on them.

Well said 4422.

I respect his right and freedom (and admire his convictions) to chose not to wrestle her. Who am I to judge? Who is any body to judge?

I respect her right and freedom and courage to wrestle boys.

I respect them both. Is that so hard to do?

My money is on the girl winning either way!

Well said right back at ya Dean. Good Point. Not our son or daughter = not our business.

Tony Miller

I agree completely that it is their choice/right/decision to wrestle or not to wrestle. It's not up to me. But still I can disagree with that decision. Like you said, Dean, we just have fundamentally different viewpoints. I guess I have a problem with wrestlers picking and choosing their opponents. If my son ever suggested that he did not want to wrestle an opponent because the other wrestler is black - I would have a big big problem with that (and my son would suffer the consequences)! And if my son ever wanted to forfeit a match because he heard that the opponent is gay - I would have a problem with that too. Like some others have said - just wrestle whoever shows up. Wrestling by nature puts the participants in uncomfortable positions - physically, emotionally, etc. In fact, I would say it's the most uncomfortable sport I can think of. I would not do it. But for those who sign up, just wrestle.

SOME OF YOU MAY NEVER COMPLETLY UNDERSTAND THIS SITUATION AND SOME OF YOU THAT FORCE YOUR KIDS ON THE MAT WILL SUFFER THE CONSIQUENCES FROM THAT LATTER WHEN YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER COMES TO YOU AND SAYS HE OR SHE DOES NOT WANT TO WRESTLE ANYMORE.I DIDNT EVER ASK FOR ANYBODY TO MOCK AGREE OR DISAGEREE I ASKED WHAT WOULD YOU DO. WE MUST ALL REMEMBER THIS IS KANSAS KIDS WRESTLING NOT HIGH SCHOOL NOT COLLEGE. THE MORALS THAT WE TEACH OUR CHILDREN ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. IAM NOT SAYING THAT THE MORALS THAT MY WIFE AND I TRY TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN IS RIGHT OR WRONG IT IS WHAT WE BELIVE. BUT I DO BELIEVE THE MORALS EACH ONE OF US INSTILL IN OUR KIDS WILL BE WHO THEY ARE LATTER IN LIFE. ARE YOU SURE YOUR KIDS ARE WRESTLING FOR THEM, OR ARE THEY WRESTLING FOR YOU!!!!! WHATEVER DECISION HE MAKES IT WILL NOT BE THE WRONG ONE AS LONG HE IS AT PEACE WITH IT!
TRACY WEETER

"the opposite of freedom?"

That is a loaded question but it might be, a bunch of adults trying to impart their ethics and morales onto an eleven year old that has his own convictions and beliefs! (imo)

If he thinks that it is not right (to wrestle a women) ... whom am I to suggest he's mistaken!!

as long as he is happy nothing else really matters he will be happy with his decision

I guess I wonder why one would ask the wrestling Talk Forum about how a child should act on his religious beliefs. If this is a religion question, I think a pastor is the best source of advice. If a son just does not want to wrestle a girl, maybe come here.

I think he and his parents should be complimented for raising a child with a strong faith. But announcing that faith on the Talk Forum seems a little self-promoting.

A Pastor can be a big help or a big hinderance. A pastor is just a falliable, sinful person like the rest of us humans (no disrespect towards any of you Pastors they of all people should know what -Romans Chapter 3 teaches- I'm just talking about the Solas of the Reformation).

Your OPIONION is that it seemed 'a little self-promoting'. My OPINION is that this is a very loving father put in a very awkward circumstance, reaching out to his fellow WRESTLING community, for some advice, related to wrestling. Therefore, seems ok with me. No one else was complaining about it.

But . . . I respect your right to complain about it. However, I don't have to agree with it.

Yep. I'll take care of my kids and you take care of yours . . . and we will all get along better in the end would be my guess.

To me, you are making on apples to oranges comparsion. You create a strawman argument (a black or a gay - excuse my language, and no disrespect meant), and then tore it down.

To me, gender vs. gender, and especally at this age - is a complicated thing. I respect the parents decision. Again, no one can force any one to wrestle any one. The wrestler obviously makes the ultimate decison of who they wrestle. My guess is this boy will happily wrestle any other boy (irregardless of the others boys religion or skin color or whatever...) For very obvious reasons, he just feels uncomfortable wrestling a girl.

I'm not judging anyone. That is not my position. I respect both, for different reasons. And, my respect is irrevalant. It is THEIR son, and they merely asked for some advice. Not dogma crammed down their throats.

For me, the potential pyscological damage it could do to the boy (that could effect him for the rest of his life), far outweight any gains he could possibly make by wrestling her.

Again, I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you.

Dean

PS: I wrestled in the KC area in the early 80's. My 10th grade year, in a dual match, my weight class was one in which I would have been pitted against a returning undefeated state champ who I did not have a prayer against. This kid (and his twin brother) went on to wrestle D1 at Mizzo- any of you old timers remember the twins from Chrisman HS - Mark and Matt Sauls? My coach decided to move me down to JV. We foreited that weight. As a sidenote, I won my JV match by a crazy score of like 16-14. Now, if I would have wrestled Mr. Sauls, I would have most likely gotten pinned in less than a minute. Or, like a cat toying with a mouse, he would have let me up and taken me down, got about a 30 point lead (no mercy rule back then on points) and then pinned me. So, which do you think was the better experience for me? So. . . it happens all the time, and for different reasons, people picking and choosing who they wrestle. It is called freedom. And some times it is just down right smart.

When you got into Walmart do you always have to buy something or can you walk in, look around, and leave? Thankfully, since we live in most free country in the world you can do either/or without being judged.

I am in no position to judge. That is God's job. Not mine.

Take care.

Yep, loaded in deed. But I figured a 'wise old dude' (no disrespect, I love the wit and wisdom in your posts) like you would get it. Grin.

One you wrote above is definitely an answer to my question. There are several ways one could answer it. I just put it out there to hopefully provoke some to slow down a bit and think about the other position . . .

The opposite of freedom is slavery. And sadly, the poor salves were not allowed to learn much for a variety of reasons... If you can't make your own decisions, then you will always be dependent on others to make them for you . . . and that is not a healthy or good place to be.

The boy has the freedom to wrestle who ever he wants to, for whatever reason he wants to, frankly I think it is none of our d*mn business what decision he/the family makes. We are not their conscience. We are not their God. They are not accountible to us and we are not to judge. When one points fingers at others, they got at least three of their own, pointing back at them self.

Not wrestling because of their race = Racism

Not wrestling because of their sexual preference = Bigotry

Men not wrestling or fighting Women = Godly wisdom

I learned years ago, in my past profession, that one was treading on dangerous ground when you tried to minimize anothers (especially youngsters) feelings!

Now if their feelings and convictions are clearly not in touch with reality that's a different deal. But even if they were, trying to convince a youngster otherwise needs to be handled cautiously.

But his feelings and convictions seem well founded and for him ... logical! Anyone that tries to convince him that he is wrong in his beliefs are treading all over him!

Yep. Concise and well-said as always. That is what I have been saying all along. I'm done beating this dead horse. I have said the same thing a dozen times now. It is just that you and Chief say it better and with much, much fewer words. Being able to be concise but POWER is AWESOME!

Take care and PEACE and RESPECT to all.

I really believe issues of faith are private, and I believe like a previous poster that it doesn't belong on here, but you brought it up so... First, I believe we now live in the 20th Century. We let them vote, they can join the army, run major corporations and even be nominated for the position of Vice President. Just think of that a woman, who as a child was not tough enough for an 11 year old boy to wrestle, could of been in the position to assume the post of President of the United States of America. I bet a lot of people who are supporting the idea that this kid should not wrestle the girl voted for the MaCain/Palin ticket. If she would not of been tough enough to wrestle a boy when she was younger, would we really want her making the decision on pushing the 'button' when she is an adult!!!! Remember wrestling is probably the greatest sport to prepare someone for life. Don’t they quote Gable as saying after wrestling, everything is easy. So are we going to deny this girl that opportunity???

Second, if you call it respect, think of the DISRESPECT you are showing her parents. The reasoning is 'he can't wrestle her for moral reasons'. Does the inverse stand true, that the parents made an immoral decision by letting her wrestle boys!!!! You are really kind of saying that.

Third, So, I wonder, when he grows up will he be able to handle having a woman boss?? I have had a few, and just like men, some are great and some I am glad they are gone.

Fourth, wrestling is the hardest sport to train for per a previous post on this forum, this girl works her butt off in practice I am sure. How can you not treat her like just another worthy opponent. Even assuming your son wins (which without even knowing the kids, I bet is correct) it will make the girl a better person having gone thru the adverstiy. As an adult she will face much more difficult situations, her parents are just trying to prepare her for such.

Finally, as a good, non-Obama supporting (reminds me of Bush), Democrat, I believe we all have the right to our own opinions. I believe you and your son should do what you think is right. But, remember, that part of the Bible that talks about praying in the closet. Deeds speak for themselves, if you really believe in what you are doing, you don't need my, or anyone else's approval.

Making tough decisions as an adult or having a woman boss vs. fighting her or not? That leap in logic is almost comical. (With all due respect)

I agree with Chief on this one ... there is quite a difference between perhaps taking orders from or later in his life being married and having to compromise with your wife! It is quite another topic when one suggests going to literal combat with a woman.

Amen Mr.Johnson, I also believe that his refusing to wrestle shows a tremendous amount of disrespect for his opponet. People need to realize that society has evolved and grown and we are not a bunch of uneducated fisherman anymore,if we all follow the bible a lot of kids would have to be put to death at every tournament Deutorotomy 18-21
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear
Dont know about the kids being drunkards maybe they started drinking at an earlier age back then. This verse is pretty clear, that a lot of children now a days need to be stoned to death.

Clark Griswold

Not wrestling because of their race = Racism

Not wrestling because of their sexual preference = Bigotry

Men not wrestling or fighting Women = Godly wisdom

Chief you mean your church is okay with homosexuality? but its okay to discriminate against women?

Clark,

You yanked this passage completely out of it's context!!!

The Bible does not tell parents to stone their children. You are quoting part of the "law" that was given specifically to Jews (no one else) during a specific time for a specific reason.
We do not live by the 10 commandments today, although it is still wrong to lie ,steal, or murder and so on. The Jews were under the law as a means of their salvation. Any disobedience could only be atoned with blood only, this is the reason for all the sacrifices.

We no longer depend on obedience to the law for our salvation. Christs' sacrifice was final, and was for all the sins of the world.

Choosing not to fight a woman is discriminating against her?

dis·crim·i·na·tion   /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic . something that serves to differentiate

According to the definition yes I would consider it discrimination

So in a positive way! Making a distinction in favor of not fighting a woman.

Eric, no disrespect taken, but I do not believe that was a leap of logic. Having come close to getting a minor in philosphy in college, I think it makes total sense. Yes, there needs to be some steps in between, but think about it. According to Aristotle we learn by experience, by denying these girls the same experiences boys have, we are not giving them the same experiences we give boys, as such, they will not be as prepared to handle the adversities of life.

Getting a little deep for Doug to understand, so with all due respect I am out of this argument. This is like getting into the 6u threads, I always got beat up there also.

its still discrimination because he is choosing not to allow her the opportunity to compete based on her gender, which is discrimination.

She can still compete and would continue to compete just not against him...

Jason Murdock

I was wondering if anyone would see the slippery slope problem when you start making decisions based upon the particular characteristics of the person you are wrestling ... and basing discrimination on the bible or other religious doctrine isn't all that surprising...its happening everyday in all walks of life all around the world...

Like having discriminating tastes. It's a good thing! She can't win Homecoming King either!

Can't pass this one up.
And he can't wrestle with the Homecoming Queen either!!!

Would you have a problem with a nazi not wrestling blacks based on their beliefs? It seems like its the same situation.

If this familys religous beliefs are this strong then why was this even an issue? This should have been discussed with their family, their pastor etc... They shouldn't need public validation to follow their religous beliefs. This subject should have never even been posted religion is a personal and private matter, it doesn't need to be discussed on a wrestling forum

It's NOT the same thing. That's racism. This is a boy not wanting to fight a girl. If a guy swung at you would you swing back? If a woman swung at you, would you? Why not?

racism is discrimination based on skin color this is discrimination based on gender. same thing, you cant pick and choose what is discrimination and what isn't based on your religous beliefs, because your beliefs may not be the same as mine, Wrestling a girl is not fighting a girl there is a huge difference, if a guy hit me i would punch him back, if a woman hit me, depending on the circumstances i might hit her back.

That has nothing to do with this issue, this girl has paid her dues, practice, sacrifice just like the boys,she should be shown enough respect to compete against her, if he doesn't its no different than racism plain and simple

This kid has a solid conviction that it's the right thing to treat girls differently than guys. Just as you said that you "might" hit her back. Why the might? (Although I would consider you a coward if you did). It's because you respect the difference between men and women. Now that's plain and simple.

Just as she has the freedom to wrestle, he has the freedom to decide not to wrestle her. I wonder if half of you would even care if his decision wasn't based on religion. I love how this country wants to protect everyones rights unless it is a religious right!?!?

Jason Murdock

This subject should of never even been an issue on this board. One thing thats great about this country is that we have personal freedoms. We are able to choose to participate in activities we enjoy doing. I think its this kids right as an american citizen to decide to wrestle or not.
However I also think this should of been handled entirely different. All this post did was open up an 11 year old kid to scrutiny during the most important time of the season. It sounds like this young man has very strong convictions, He must have learned them from his parents. If this family really feels this way then why do they need public validation on this forum?
This should of been handled at home with this boys coach. All they had to do was default the match, no reason needed to be given, and public approval doesn't matter at all. This should of been handled quietly, no one would know why he defaulted, no ones feelings would of been hurt and it would of been a non issue.

Those are my two cents on the subject.

Tom Baughman

Hi Tom,

"Should, should, should, should..."

Four times in your brief 'two cents' worth. Do all those 'shoulds' tell you something? They do me... but I am not going to connect the dots for anyone unless they ask me via PM.

That being said, I think what you wrote below ROCKED! :

"All they had to do was default the match, no reason needed to be given, and public approval doesn't matter at all".

Yet, I sincerely believe the father had good motives in starting the post. I don't think he was doing it as a publicity stunt or anything... Is that what you think he was doing? If our convictions are not challenged by our own conscience at times, then I think something is wrong.

Seems like he has some dissonance in his mind that he just wanted a little help/advice in getting it all work out.

Is there anything wrong with that? Again, do you think he posted merely because of his ego? That he posted to draw attention to himself? I guess it doesn't matter. But, my two cents worth is that his motives were sincere.

It looks like the young man decided to wrestle, and won (1st Match).

Dean,
I really don't know why this post was started. I don"t know this family. I was just merely making an observation and stating my opinion. I was not trying to pass judgement on anyone. I was just saying that I thought this could of been handled differently with a lot less drama.

Tom Baughman

Hi Tom,

Usually there are many different ways to solve problems/solicit advice. Since his question concerned wrestling, I thought this forum was an appropriate venue for him to do that.

I guess we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Peace and goodwill to you.

Take care.