High School State Placers in 14U

I have not looked at the entries this year but every year I see several high school state placers in the 14U division. I tried to suggest, when we created HS divsion, to disallow HS kids in 14U period but at the very least we should encourage HS state placers to wrestle the HS division. It is an unfair advantage that HS wrestlers have a better practice situation and wrestle kids up to three or four years older than them during the past three months. What are everyone else's thoughts?

I agree completely, Will. Why should someone that did not Win or place high enough to their satisfactory come back and wrestle down in my eyes at the Kids level after they have wrestled against their equivalents or above for the last three months. You improve by wrestling better opponents who make you work.

Brian J. Bigelow

WHOA!!! If we shouldn't have lower weight classes in High School to cater to Freshmen. Then lets not whine and cry when they wrestle their age division in kids. They are doing this for fun, they aren't cutting a ton of weight or working out 2 hours a day. Let them have fun and be kids, they are only 14.

Well said!!! FUN is the name of the game. This is NOT the Olympics! KEEP IT FUN or you will kill them with burn out . . . I have seen many 14 year old STUDS . . . that don't even finish there senior year of HS wrestling. Why? Because it is just no fun any more. After years and years of being over-controlled by their parents, they simply (and understandably) hate the sport we all love.

Back off and let them have fun!!!

Maybe they should just flunk 8th grade on purpose. That makes much more sense.

X 2! Great point. I know the post is about State Placers but is it safe to say half of the freshmen are still in 14 and Under? Each kid goes through the top and bottom half of the age groups each year. Why should a freshman not get his chance?

I thought this sport was to get the kids at the same age and weight? Why wouldn't you let let the kid on his up yr of 14 wrestle 14 under. Let them have 1 more chance at true kids club state championship, before HS division the next year. Let them decide 14 or HS. I see a few this year that elected to go up to the HS division, but it is their choice!!!

A little off topic - but at Brute they do it by grade. Well you could have a 15 or 16 year old 8th grader. Granted not many 8th graders are over 13/14 but a few are.

If the State Body makes it a rule - will we increase or decrease participation? Or just leave it as an individual choice/option.

I agree leave it an individual choice. Not everything has to be dictated to make it FAIR.(I really hate that word)

Or go back to 16under and add 18 under but I bet the brackets will be small

Leave it the way it is. Before this High School division was created the only option available to freshman 14 & Unders was to wrestle their age division. It didn't matter whether they were a high school state placer or not.

I like that they have an option to go up to the high school division, but it shouldn't be a requirement. If it keeps them wrestling for an extra month who cares if they are in the 14 & Under division? For the record I have seen several freshman high school state placers come back and end up getting beat by an 8th grader over the years.

Your age is your age. Shouldn't matter what grade your in unless it's crazy like a 20 year highschooler. Heck I've seen 16 year old 8th graders as well as kids that were 16 in their Senior year, they should both be in 16u. Let the kids decide, and maybe parents would quit redshirting their kindergardeners in hopes of haveing the biggest, fastest, strongest, and not to mention oldest Kindergardener.

Will, you say, "It is an unfair advantage that HS wrestlers have a better practice situation and wrestle kids up to three or four years older than them during the past three months."

Have those kids not paid their dues wrestling kids 3+ years older than them for three months?

You also consider it an advantage for them to have faced older opponents, and yet you don't want the 8th graders to have to wrestle someone one year older than them. If its such an advantage to wrestle older kids, let the 8th graders wrestle older kids too.

Wow--i argee with Will---world must really be coming to end this year. If you spent the season as a starting varsity wreslter-what do have to gain confidence wise wrestling kids division. I am betting if you placed at hs state--you probably won or placed at kids state several times already--what do you gain adding another? Is it parents or wrestler choosing? It should be up to wrestler. Pretty sure college scouts don't care what you did at kids level. As for fun--what fun is it for the 7/8 graders that have to wrestle high school level guys. Not sure what next year holds for us--but if we wrestle varsity-will not come back and take chance away from a youth level kid to make it to there state. Which builds confidence/skill--going 3-2 at hs level or placing at kids level?

Somebody much smarter than I said it best "prepare them for the road--not the road for them". My 2 cents anyway.

Your right college coaches don't care so why should we?

Rusty, We will see if you still feel that way next year as it may be my son that is in your sons bracket. I beleive they are this year or close anyway. However, that being said, my son understands that he will be competing against some high school freshman. He did it at Iola and got his clock cleaned. Honestly it made him realize the level of competition in high school and may have been the best thing for him. The younger kids will have to work harder.

Part of the reason for the HS division was to hope we get some HS champions/placers, from different classes (321a, 4a, 5a, 6a) to wrestle each other. There is nothing written that says who "should" wrestle HS instead of 14u, but I would think that folks should look at the big picture. A tough, state placing freshman should wrestle HS, IMO, to push him self against tougher competition.


Something that could have an impact is a kids' club coach that is after the state team title at Topeka, telling the kid to wrestle 14u for team points.

I am one that is frustrated when I see kids wrestling 14u instead of HS, but I can only make my own kid do what I feel is right, and best for him. I can't determine what I think is right for someone else's kids.

Just remember, ANY kid, when given an option, will take the easier road. This crap about "he's a kid, let him make some decisions and learn", is crap. Kids need to be told what decision to make, so that when they get older, and are faced with the ole' "when you have frogs to swallow, swallow the biggest one first", they are prepared........

my $.02

Very well said Doug!

This is a little off the original topic but I agree with Doug. If I gave my boy choices...he wouldn't go to church, go to school, take a shower, brush his teeth, go to practice, study homework, and he would eat candy every meal...etc


Jeff Martin
Brawlers
761-7139

I'm 44 years old and still took the easy road this morning. "should I pick up those underwear with the hash marks exposed, or should I let them there so that Kim yells at me, gets a long pair of tongs, and picks them up and puts them in the hamper....." I left them lay there........

Doug:
As you know I have a few years on you and I learned long ago - dispense with the underwear - less laundry and a whole lot less hollering by the misses.

Glad you called Doug out---- sharts are inecusable in undergarments especially 'tidy whities'. Depends undergarments for men if you're worried about zippers. Ha.

The older you get the less you worry about zippers.

I fail to see the issue here. If you qualify for 14U... wrestle 14U, if you don't wrestle HS div.

The issue being brought is that over the years that have been state placers, and even state champs as freshmen, that have wrestled the 14u division at kids state, instead of wrestling HS division. Some of us are of the opinion they should wrestle the HS division, as they have already proven they are capable of beating all comers at the HS division during HS season, and that it is actually a step down in competition, in most cases, to go 14u.

But you also get into the debate of "at what point should they be "required" to wrestle HS?" HS State qualifier? Lucas Baker would say that isn't enough. HS State Placer? HS State Champ?

I'm confused, you say its fair for a 14 year old to wrestle 18 year olds all season, but is not fair for a 13 year old to wrestle a 14 year old?

You think the HS 14 year old should face tougher opponents, but you don't want the 13 year old to have to face tougher opponents?

If you want 8th graders to wrestle 8th graders (or 7th) attend the Middle School Championship in Lindsborg, going to Iowa is a great experience.

I don't have a dog in this fight this year but will the next three years. What about that 14&U freshman that is varsity on a weak team who didn't make it to state much less place at state? What about a freshman who skipped a grade in school who is bottom of 14&U and may have a varsity spot? I hope my boys chose to wrestle the HS division but I will let them chose after giving them some advise. It is their wrestling season.

Andrew Steele

Yep. It seems that younger wrestlers continue to get better, which is good for the sport. Personally, if they place in high school State, I would like to see them wrestle the high school division. At the same time, I have no problem with them choosing to wrestle U14 if they are qualified to do so.

If I have have a super stud 14U HS state placer, I'm probably convincing him to wrestle in the HS div at KIDS state. If I have a 14U HS kid who wasn't a factor in HS (for whatever reason), I would tend to give him the opportunity at the 2nd year of 14U at KIDS state... the same opportunity that half the other freshmen had as eighth graders. As compared to convincing him to go have his ass handed to him in the HS div. The super studs will float to the top... let the other ones battle it out!

Part of the reason for the HS division was to hope we get some HS champions/placers, from different classes (321a, 4a, 5a, 6a) to wrestle each other. There is nothing written that says who "should" wrestle HS instead of 14u, but I would think that folks should look at the big picture. A tough, state placing freshman should wrestle HS, IMO, to push him self against tougher competition.


Something that could have an impact is a kids' club coach that is after the state team title at Topeka, telling the kid to wrestle 14u for team points.

I am one that is frustrated when I see kids wrestling 14u instead of HS, but I can only make my own kid do what I feel is right, and best for him. I can't determine what I think is right for someone else's kids.

Just remember, ANY kid, when given an option, will take the easier road. This crap about "he's a kid, let him make some decisions and learn", is crap. Kids need to be told what decision to make, so that when they get older, and are faced with the ole' "when you have frogs to swallow, swallow the biggest one first", they are prepared........

my $.02


"Great post - Can you put this in every grade/middle, & high school classroom, and have a copy sent to all the students parents as well."

I believe that this was the hope. Looking at the numbers this year, there appear to be many wrestlers/coaches/parents that didn't get the memo, or didn't take time to read it. This year's High School division (Sub-District Totals):

D1 164
D2 138
D3 103
D4 88

My son wrestled the H.S. division last year and would have wrestled it this year had it not been for a H.S. band trip next week to Florida that cost us a heap load of money. I know that others have their reason why their H.S. wrestler is not competing. It is unfortunate, because this could have been the "Grand State" that many people have asked for.

Well, no band trip the next two years, so barring injury or illness, Garrett will be back in the mix at the Kids' Fed H.S. division in '13 and '14 (unless it is dropped due to the low turnout).

It seems to me that at a time when many are concerned about the amount of participation in the HS Division, that skimming the top 30-35 wrestlers to participate in Colorado is helping to defeat the purpose of having a HS Division for Kids!

this is a gentleman's sport. fierce competition, initiated and concluded with a hand shake. a battle of strength, and stamina built on the value of respect for one another, and the sport.

in my opinion a kids who has reached the level of HS State Placer should make the gentleman's choice, and respecfully enter the HS division.

in the end, as a coach you can only make suggestion, kids and parents will make the ultimate decision.

ExHeights Coach, you're onto something...............some of our "opportunities" to grow this sport are cancelling out our "opportunities" to grow this sport.

who are you and what did you do with Beeson???

we already medal 6, and recognize the top 8 at the HS level

then we add in a middle school state championship

the HA that i thought i knew would never try to disguise trophy hunting, as "just having fun"

As much as Chief does FOR Kansas wrestling, I let him know that I dont agree with the Colorado trip.

I am not sure the Colorado trip takes that many kids away from Kids State. My son was not going to do kids. The Colorado trip is only 1 weighin, not 3, only 1 weekend, not 3...and it a trip away from home.

I certainly understand the sentiment involved with having the All-Class trip at the same time as our kids series. I do wish they didn't overlap!

The main motivation behind our All-Class teams, is to reward an incredible accomplishment that transcends classes and to showcase the best that Kansas has by matching them up on the national stage in a folkstyle dual event AND a bracketed national tournament in one weekend! When we took 17 state champions to Colorado last year and won the dual event, then put 6 wrestlers in the finals of some tough brackets, I could hardly get the grin off my face.

I have talked with every wrestler on the team and the majority would have not wrestled in the kids series. There are several of our top ranked guys that declined the trip to wrestle in kids or to attend the DI's in St. Louis. I am all on board for those experiences too!

I am just ALL IN for our dual team events. Schoolboy, Middle School, Cadet and Junior duals are in my opinion the best life-changing events for our Kansas kids. These events establish lifetime friendships and state pride. It gives our wrestlers a confidence that they have competed on a national scale. When we waltz in to that kind of environment and excel, our whole team has a true sense that WE ARE KANSAS!

Chief,

Every thing that you have said is correct. It is too bad that these events overlap. Being a part of any Team Kansas experience is priceless as my son learned a few years ago at the Middle School National Duals. I wish that he was still wrestling this year but the band trip made that impossible. Dual team events bring wrestlers together to accomplish a mission as a team, not as an individual. I have always thought that wrestling is a team event once they get to middle school and high school. My son has bought into that concept and I am proud of him for that. I do wish that the best of all four classes could go against each other, but I don't see it happening in the Kids' Fed High School division.

That wasn't the reason the HS division was passed. I was there and voted on it. It was only passed because it gave other kids the "opportunity" to wrestle after the HS season ended. Which for the most part was seniors. So they did away with the 16 and under division and made it the HS division.

Everyone there who voted knew it wasn't for a "grand state." Because it was made clear that the best seniors who were now able to wrestle the HS division, were going to be wrestling in Senior Nationals during the Kids State tournament. The kids who are going to Colorado to compete, will probably be a lot of the same kids who will be in Virgina Beach, either in Senior Nationals or another grade level.

Also we discussed the 14 and under division and freshman who were elgible to wrestle the HS division. The majority didn't want to water down the 14 and under division so the vote was that those kids had the "choice."

For my son, I gave him the choice to make his own decision. Last year as on the bottom of the 14 and under, he was excited to get the opportunity to wrestle the HS kids that he didn't get a chance to see during the kids season. At state he got to see some of them, but not all of them.

At the end of his 1st year of HS wrestling at 106 lbs, he was looking forward to wrestling the USAW kids season. He said it'd be nice to go against kids his own age and that weren't big weight cutters. He planned to wrestle 14u 110 lbs, which was his walk around weight at the end of the season. I had no issues with it. It was his choice to make the decision, and I understood where he came from. Unforturnately, he broke his arm in his last match, for 3rd and 4th, at the HS state tourney so that ended any issues about wrestling for kids state.

He's not a kids who tried to duck anyone. He's always wrestled what ever weight he was, regardless of who was in it. He's traveled and entered the best tourney's throughout the years to challenge himself. As soon as his arm heals, he'll be back in Tony Purler's room battling with some of the best kids in the NE Kansas and NW Missouri area. He was elgible for 14 and under, and planned to wrestle it for his own enjoyment.

If it really upsets you, try to make the changes the way they should be. Through the state body.

I think a trip to Reno, HS nationals in Virginia Beach, or Iowa with our All Class team would be better. That would encourage them to wrestle the kids' series to stay in wrestling shape, and of course get us some of those matchups we are looking for to spice up the HS division.

If the competition level isn't better in Colorado this year I would hope this trip would be discontinued in the future.

The competition is very good. Last year, Conklin had a great OT match with a nationally ranked kid, Alex Bontz lost his only match all year and Ryne Cokeley lost a match, two state finalists Newport and Strauss got 5th and 6th, state champions Baird and Anderson got 3rd and state champion Blackwell did not place!

The competition in Colorado is TOUGH.

So out of how many duals you can point to 4 or 5 matches that were tough??? This is a problem that has been talked about before on these boards about other tournaments. Calling this a "national" tournament or describing the competition as "tough" is salesmanship at the best and a bold-faced lie at the worst. While it might become "tough" at some point, if the past is any indicator it is neither "tough" nor "national". Tournaments like this act as only a mini vacation for the participants and further serve to separate parents from their hard earned money. This is money and time that could be better spent keeping these kids in state and be beneficial to the clubs hosting qualifiers.
I have no problem with these kids going but let's have a little truth in adverising when trying to gather a team.

I'd agree with Doug on this. While not taking anything away from the Colorado tournament, it's hard to imagine it is on par competition wise with VA Beach or Iowa.

If this whole point of this post started about getting kids to seek out the best competition maybe we should be looking at getting these All-Class kids to one of these tournaments instead of Colorado.

Greg Boucher,

You are reaching for a story here. Separating parents from their hard earned money? Are you kidding? Salesmanship at best? What am I selling? I am volunteering. I'm missing three days of work and have spent many hours on this event. I can't change the name of this event, it's called the Rocky Mountain Nationals and has hosted almost every state in the country at some point. Gold Medalist Henry Cejudo was a 2X champion of this event. Last year, there were a handful of Division I wrestlers there. It is not the NHSAA Nationals. It is not the USAW Junior National Duals and it is not the ASICS/Vaughan Junior & Cadet National Championships. It is a folkstyle dual event that draws from our surrounding states and others such as Montana and Idaho. It is followed by a large bracketed two day tournament. Some of our wrestlers get as many as TWELVE folkstyle matches against competition they haven't seen before and is a FANTASTIC tune-up for Virginia Beach.

You need to either retract your ridiculous statement or admit that you have over dosed on your meds before you posted.

This is a perfect tune-up for Virginia Beach! Many are using it as just that.

The kids series is too long for the HS division. At most you need a district and a state. You have to make up your mind what weight you want to wrestle within five days of your last HS weigh in. Most HS wrestlers want a break. They may only want to wrestle one event such as the RMN.

Va Beach is different now too. They are up against Flo for competition. NHSCA allows HS wrestlers to drop weight classes as does Flo. I haven't even checked the calendar but perhaps Reno and USA Nationals are the same weekend. You can call them watered down because the elite are not gathering at one watering hole any longer but not because they don't have numbers. All of these events are getting 40 plus wrestlers and in come cases 60 plus.

At the end of the day no one is tricking anyone. The ability to educate yourself before you write the check is readily available. Kids and parents have the right to choose. That has always been the beauty of this sport. You can take your gear and go where you want to, you don't have to follow anyone. As to wether or not RMN is hurting USA Kids?? Who really knows? It is all speculation and opportunity.

If you want a great post season HS event then allow walk ups to a HS district the Saturday after HS State and qualify the top four for the next weekend. Two weeks of wrestling while they are still in shape instead of four weeks of ridiculous sub districts with 3 man round robins and tons of scratches.

I do think Sport0 is way off base throwing around accusations and ridiculing those who invest their time and money to support a kids wrestling opportunity. If you want the kids to stay in KS build a better mouse trap.

i wasn't trying to single out one opportunity over the other, rather stating that unfortunately these event tend to overlap.

chief i think the colorado trip is great, but unfortunately coincides with KS kids. i think the middle school state tourney is great too, but truly believe that more would participate if it were held any other date.

as cokeley said these tourneys are what they are, and are becoming less than expected as others fall on the same date. with the economy the way it is, a "national" tournament has sometimes become regional at best.

perfect idea, hold it at park city, the following week, then let the 6 and under division into the state series.

Once again...Bronson you said it all right the first time..

I had a conversation today with someone about whether we even need subdistricts for ANY of the kids divisions. I didn't go thru and look at all of the districts' brackets, but didn't see very many brackets at D2 with more than 8 or 10 kids in it. For us to run only a District tourney, it would take a place that could handle a 900-1000 kid tourney. Maize manages to run a good tourney with that many kids, as does Derby. Of course Hartman Arena would be perfect. Speaking for D2 only of course. I assume other districts could find a place for a single district tourney as well. We could move district tourney to last weekend, same as Subdistricts, and move state up a week, to shorten the season. Kids will be able to get into FS Greco earlier, or get ready for the duals, Iowa, Reno, etc.........

The season is WAY too long IMO. And of course I am not telling anyone how long they should or shouldn't wrestle, but if you want to start earlier, and finish later, there are plenty of opportunities out there to fix you up. Pick any one of the 200 "National" tourneys !!! haha

Doing away with Subs, and charging a bit more for Districts, would probably raise enough extra money to rent a place like Hartman. I don't know this for a fact though. THere could be some kids that don't go to districts because they think they won't move on to state. I wouldn't let my kids think that way, but it will happen. So if we have 450 kids in each subdistrict, we may only have 750-800 at a single district tourney.......

And it would probably save some money on entry fees for most people, and of course save a weekend of gas, concessions, hotel, etc.

I don't know how much Reno, Iowa, Rocky Mntn, MSND, etc. pay attention to Kansas' kids' series schedule, but maybe they would move around a bit if we shortened our season by a week. Again, I appreciate all that Chief does for KS wrestling, but maybe this idea of no subs (which I am sure plenty of other people have talked about) would help keep some of these things from overlapping. I do think that we don't have anything to prove as Team Kansas, but proving it at Iowa, Reno, or Virginia would mean more......that just my opinion.

Perfectly said Doug! IMO, With the number of wrestlers in each weight class for the most part, subs is a waste of time and money. My son is a freshmen, so it does not make a difference to me any more. But for the good of Kansas Wrestling this should be done. I believe Olathe East High School is big enough in D1 to handle the crowd.
Joe Pratt

there were 600 wrestlers in D1 north and south. some would not register, because they felt they couldn't compete, but not sure that number would drop too much. not sure OEHS could handle that crowd, but there's only one way to tell.

i see the biggest problem being 8u brackets with 32+ kids..... more than 5-6 matches in 1 day.

Only 3 age groups really require two weeks of qualifying. 6, 8, and 10. There might be a few 12's but the majority could be handled with a district event.

This is a contraction idea and from a business perspective it is a recipe for failure, just like the existing format. We have reached capacity and we need to think "outside of the box" to create ideas that will allow us to GROW. It is pretty basic, if you are not growing your organization is dying. We are growing from a card purchasing view point but how long can we count on only delivering a product to less than 50% of our card buyers? Many people agree that we have reached the point that to grow we have to split our state tournament. Many also agree that having the state tournament earlier for the younger kids would achieve growth in participation which would then require subs, dist, and state for 6, 8, 10 for one state tournament (preferably happening the weekend before HS state) and then eventually the same for 12, 14, Cadets, and Juniors. (No KSHSAA state placers allowed to compete in 14U, all HS eligible wrestlers have the choice of entering as a Cadet or Junior.) Remote weigh ins would be instituted and last weekend would have been the last weekend for a Folkstyle event.

This opens up the opportunity to move the state tournaments to venues around the state which would be more economically just to our membership as well as not allow a city's hotels to hold us hostage.

I think this idea will boost our participation to 70% of the membership. I cannot be sure until we do it but I can be sure that we will not boost attendance at the state qualifying series until we make some changes to the current process.

I do agree that the sport needs to grow. We should not try to cut back opportunities for wrestlers of any size, we should be trying to find ways to get more involved and keep them competing throughout the year. I, as I stated before, don't have the answers. I do believe that I know what should be happening, but I will leave the details of making it happen to those that are a lot smarter than I am.

I have been a proponent for some time of wrestling off the 16U (now H.S.) division on the Friday night before Subs or Districts. For the most part the mats are already set-up and it would take maybe 3 hrs. at the most. In addition to eliminating some of the congestion on Saturday, it would give the younger kids an opportunity to watch the older kids wrestle. Some, maybe most, of these younger kids, go through the entire season without ever getting to watch a high school match.

Amen! this hurts as much as anything.

We don't have a dog in the fight either this year. We will in two. He will either be the top half of 14U or HS because of his birthday. I agree with Steele. I will let my son decide and his brothers after him. I do not step on the mat, they do.

I have always been a strong advocate for our high schoolers to participate in the kids series, and not leave the state for a duel tournament. I do agree that we need to do away with Subs for HS, and maybe even for 14U, as some Middle Schools go late. I like Subs for the other age groups. I think that only having a couple of days to decide if you want to cut weight, and to wind down after the state tournament, detours many HS wrestlers away from the kids series. If I remember correct when I wrestled MS and HS we would walk on to districts, but of course that was a few years ago. I think if we allowed that extra week for the wrestlers to decide we would have many more HS wrestling the kids series. JMO.

District 1 Numbers:

2011 - 1125 2012 - 1116
14/32 HS 14/32 HS
27/46 14U 21/46 14U
22/44 12U 14/44 12U
12/40 10U 12/40 10U
11/36 8U 9/36 8U

Brackets with 4 or less wreslters/Total number of brackets

35% of the brackets had 4 or less competitors this year as compared to 43% in 2011 even though we had 9 fewer wrestlers.

Only 7% of the brackets had more than 16 wrestlers when you combine both subs.

A high school state champion won 17-2 in the 14U finals match. Was that a waste of time?

What does his team mate think? Was he appreciative of the challenge or feel he was shown up? After all it was his own teammate he beat in the finals. I watched several top 3-4 high school state placers in their respective classes come back to 14 under not to win in fact losing to 8th graders. It is no guarantee that a freshman placer will win 14 under. I even watched high school qualifiers not qualify for kids state. Only that kid and his coach& team can answer that question,Chief.

NO!!!