Salina Thread

Hey does anyone have any idea why the Salina thread was deleted? I thought there was a lot of necessary info on there and Rich Zimmerman was taking the thread as constructive criticism. If someone posted something that was not appropriate isn't it possible to delete that single post and not the entire thread?

Seems like kind of a flakey forum if we can't have members state the obvious and help these tournament directors understand what the expectations are. Furthermore, if a moderator deleted the thread it probably would not hurt if you contact the party responsible for starting the thread with an explanation of why you deleted it.

Um put it back up please.

Bret Stouder
bstouder@sunflower.com

There were a lot of pretty nasty, personal, comments and attacks that probably resulted in it getting pulled. There are forum rules, and if you don't want to read them, live by the rule - "be polite" and you won't violate them. You can express almost any point you want to make, but you have to pick the right words. Hysterics and name-calling end up being unpersuasive and a turn off.

Thanks Rford. Certainly not my intent when I started the thread.

Everyone loves free speech until they disagree with what another has to say...

If you want to make a change you have to stick to your guns. Here is what was sent to one of the directors of the Bicentennial Center. If you agree feel free to cut and paste it and send it to them. In the end this should help Rich Zimmerman help us.

Cbird@bicentennialcenter.com

Mr. Bird:

I am writing this email to voice on overwhelming displeasure with the rules and regulations in which you have in place for renting your facility. I attended an event their last weekend and have to express how disappointed I was with the security, concessions and quality of the Bicentennial Center.

I will address each of the issues independently and briefly:

Security: We were at a kids wrestling tournament. Your security officials were rude, and showed no compassion for our youth athletes or the parents/coaches that are putting in volunteer time to continue to show our kids the benefits of youth sports and what we bring to the community. This needs to be addressed and they need to be told that people that are attending events at the facility are customers and need to be treated accordingly. Give up the bag checks as well. Let families bring in coolers and drinks to keep our athletes hydrated and fed. If you have to charge a gate to get in make your $3 a person that way, but don't take away the food etc as your concessions were horrible. I address that next.

Concessions - GREED - We were not there for a rock concert or a supertruck event. We don't charge $100 for a ticket to get in. Your menu is grossly over priced and your selection was horrible. Wrestling is a sport where your body needs to be conditioned. A healthy menu is important and $3.00 bottles of water and $5 hamburgers are beyond anything that we see at other events. In fact your entire menu was out of line. Your facility is nothing close to the Sprint Center and you should not be gouging the parents and youth athletes that travel for hours to attend the event. Most of us travel over 2 hours, stay in your local hotels, eat at your local restaurants and pay a pretty price that the City of Salina must benefit from. Show some respect and we will all continue to return. If the trend continues, we will either start a new event or find another event that respects us as much as we respect our youth athletes and the parents that make the financial sacrifice.

Your facility: This is 2013 - Your lack of a nice sound system and more importantly lack of a computer network that connects us to the outside world is troublesome. Your computer network is an extremely easy fix and needs to be addressed immediately. You should have a wireless hot spot set up for activities and a separate network set up for attendees of events at your facility.

I provide this data to you in a constructive setting. If you would like to discuss any of these short comings, I am glad to speak with you and you can reach me at 913-485-3195.

I look forward to the opportunity to speak with you.

Bret Stouder
Eudora, KS.

Maybe hitting up the Chamber would help also?
http://www.salinakansas.org/
http://www.facebook.com/salinachamber

Security is a must but the attitude that came with it was crazy.

Agree that prices of concessions must be taken into account with the type of event. Prices come down more people will buy it versus hauling their coolers in.

Technically this is a non-profit right? Money goes back to the club, kids and community? Pretty sure no one is making their house payment from running this club.

Also found The City of Salina is the primary owner of the Salina Bicentennial Center, so Chamber may be a good idea, I'm sure they would be concerned that people are considering not returning.

If you are one of those people that only sends hate mail and not any realistic solutions I suggest you just don't send anything, don't make the situation difficult for the Salina club in case there is a opportunity to correct some of the issues. My 2 cents.

Good post Sig. Good info and good suggestions. The intent here is to help Zimmermans club and not pad the pockets of the venue. This tournament brings enough revenue to the City.

Anyone who has gone to national tournaments has seen the high prices, inadequate concessions (bad nutrition foods with long lines). The referee quality, however, is not acceptable. We have been to Brute, Iowa, Nebraska, and others and have never seen such inexperienced referees or so many bad calls or confrontations between referees and coaches. At some point in the evening, the concession stands had nothing left but a few powerades, popcorn, and nothing in the way of a meal. Three solutions for next year... 1. Only use top-rated referees (if it takes more pay, please advise and maybe we can sell cookie dough to raise the money)... 2. Insure the concessions are well stocked until the tournament ends. 3. Get track wrestling up and running... Result... tournament goes from a C- to an A... very simple.

The fact that the original thread was taken down is TRULY sad. Apparently, even in THIS forum we have some of the hyper-sensitive types! SMH!!!

The fact is that Stouder NAILED IT in his original thread opening post! In fact, I had MANY of the same thoughts and was prepared to launch at some point on Sunday, but he beat me to it. Probably a GOOD thing though, because I guarantee, given the hyper-sensitive nature of some (apparently) would have yanked that for sure!

About the ONLY thing that I don't recall (can't refer to it since, due to hyper-sensitivity, it was taken down) Stouder referring to in the original note, but he has now down in the redo... was the BEYOND PATHETIC "WiFi". However, in "fairness" it was actually "usable" about the time they started rolling up the mats...at the end of the tournament! REAL helpful THEN?! SMH!!!

The OTHER thing that I STILL don't get is that this tournament was NOT operated with Track Wrestling last year either, it was only used to register, WHICH was/and IS extremely annoying! Like it or not, people have grown accustomed to tracking tournament happenings before, during, AND after, via Track?!

Btw, can SOMEBODY enlighten me how "security" was helping to secure us all on Saturday with their, near "anal probes" when going in the "facility"? From my view they were only saving us all from the lethal threat of bottled water and gatorade?! While I'm at it, I guess I should "thank" them for their service to our community, saving and protecting us from outside food and drinks! WHEW, that was close! "Thanks" guys/gals! You people are imposing this restriction on a "culture" (wrestling community) in which nearly everybody bring some food and drinks with them to pretty much every tournament?! How do you think they're going to react?

The other thing, and probably the biggest reason I had the negative experience at Salina this year, is that THEY'VE HEARD MOST, IF NOT ALL of these things BEFORE! and yet they just apparently haven't cared what anybody says or thinks. Apparently making the calculation that people will deal with all the crap in favor of the level of competition.

This tournament is probably THE toughest tournament in Kansas, in fact, on par with State, and I'd even say you could refer to it as a regional/mini-national-level type tourney, but these issues simply MUST be dealt with!

Btw, great follow up post by "Sig"!

Disagree Ford. However, in the hyper-sensitive era in which we live, you may be on to something. NOT to me, I tell it like it is, AND ALWAYS WILL! and care little for any of you hyper-sensitive types on ANY level!

BE REAL, NOT FAKE! Don't be SOOO afraid of getting (reading or hearing) somebody's TRUE opinion!!! Grow a thicker skin! (GEEZ)!!!

Well I'll throw in a positive comment; I certainly appreciate the online, free podium pictures. After a very long day, it's nice to not have to wrestle the other moms for a picture or pay $25 plus shipping, sometimes times 2 for me, for a mediocre 5x7 like at USJOC or Tulsa.

-Derby Mom

Thanks for the support Rough. This is the response I received at 7:46am this morning from the Bicentennial Center. I would guess Salina rakes in close to $1M in revenue on this tournament. One would think they would be a little more open to discussing change.

Bret,
Good morning. Thank you for your email. The Bicentennial Center is one of few multi-purpose facilities of 6,500 seats or more in Kansas. We reference our policies and pricing on regional standards and proudly position ourselves cheaper than alternative locations. To address your comments below specifically:

Concessions - Outside food and beverage are not permissible in other arenas.

Quality - We agree there are necessary upgrades to bring the facility up to standard of other facilities in the country. New sound system and IT upgrades are categories we will address in the near future.

We will forward your comments to the event promoter so they can decide whether to address this further.

Thanks,
Chris

Where can you get a picture of the award stand. My son placed but I was not able to geta picture.

The pictures should be up sometime within the next week.

Couldn't agree more!!! Deal with the problems individually. If we're going to start deleting whole threads then shut the whole damn forum down! That's ridiculous.

Just like many forms of government, they let us see what they want us to see and not the truth - uber-sensitive and non-confrontational - thin-skinned - I know I'm one of the reasons why they deleted that thread and apologize for offending anyone with my truthful opinions... Maybe we need to start teaching our kids to wrestle online in some cyber stadium instead of in reality, Lord knows we don't want our kids to verbally battle each other, but let's teach them to kick the crap outta each other physically... Makes no sense.

Ya I agree with you guys. If you must delete a single post by all means do it, but taking down the entire thread is wrong. Wrestling is a passionate sport and without input (both positive and negative) we really would not have a means of continually trying to make things a little better.

Don't get me wrong, the level of competition at Salina is first class, and other than the poor officiating the venue really seems to be the big problem. When you break down what the issues were 1.) No Track Wrestling, 2.) The Security and 3.) The concessions, they all point back to the people that run the Bicentennial Center. It seems that the only real way to fix this is to either find another venue or when next year comes around, contact Mr. Zimmerman and confirm that the facility has good internet service for Track, has modified the rules for bringing food and drinks in and he has taken some control of the concessions. If those things are fixed and he rounds up a good officiating crew then he has the foundation of a great event.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the female table worker at Mat 11 needs to be tossed. She sets a horrible example for our kids and has no idea how to control the clock. I was not able to get her name, but could certainly point her out of a crowd if I see her again.

I do appreciate the words of support on this thread and hope that we don't have to have another thread like this next year.

Cheers!

Bret

Do the high school teams take coolers into the facility during high school state? I believe they do? If they can make an exception for high school, certainly they can make an exception for this event. Do not use their "policy" as an excuse to do what's right for the kids. A bottle of water at least.

The competition alone is not worth it for me when you have to face poor officiating, hostile "Fort Knox style" security and price gouging and be forced to eat Chili Cheese Pies, Hotdogs or Hamburgers. I myself emailed Mr. Bird at the Bi-Centennial Center and copied each board member of the Chamber of Commerce in attempt to atleast garner some attention to this. If we can help them understand that this is not a normal event, ie: concert or sporting event that is 2-3 hours long, but a youth athletic event that lasts well over 12 hours, maybe they will see the importance of being able to bring in water and healthy snacks for our wrestlers. I would be happy to pay $5 a head to enter if we were allowed to do so and believe that it could be a win win for all. Below is a list of the email addresses to Mr. Bird and the Chamber of Commerce that i have contacted. I would urge anyone reading this to atleast throw a couple of lines down in an email to let them know the volume of people that are unhappy with this venue.

Scott

cbird@bicentennialcenter.com, dlauver@salinakansas.org, dweiser@salinakansas.org, lpowell@salinakansas.org, ebrown@salinakansas.org

Brent,

At the high school state tournament you are not allowed either. Coolers have to be stored in another room outside of the venue.

Policy must have changed then, because I remember taking our cooler into the center for our wrestlers. It would be nice.

At high school they allowed the teams to bring coolers that were in another area of the venue but items had to stay there. My son got stopped for taking a bottle of water in to the stands. Be ready because Kids State will be the same with no outside food and checking bags. Now that my son is in college we have not seen this in arenas. So the chamber needs to check again with other venues and what they do for these types of events. We were just at national duals and bags were not checked and teams had coolers in the stands. They also allowed an outside vender in to sell smoothies and added granala bars and fruit to the menu. Unless they only receive a handful of complaints they will not change. Start a petition and have the Salina club start looking for another sight that might get someone to wake up. There is a whole military base do they not have the space?

I agree with you Michelle.. we need to make this a big deal. My last post has the email adresses of those that have the ability to make the decisions. The more they receive the better... keyboard warriors mount up!!

They need to realize that the wrestling family is in attendance for 6+ hours not just the 1.5-2 hours most events take.

The following is taken from the Bicentennial Centers web site. Take note is says UNLESS AUTHORIZED. So yes they could authorize it. They just choose not to.


Unless authorized by Salina Bicentennial Center Staff, no person shall be admitted into the facility with any of the following items in his/her possession:

Alcoholic beverages or controlled substances (unless prescribed for the possessor) cameras, audio or visual recording equipment, radios, televisions or any other such electronic devices, except when authorized.
Pets (Excluding Service Animals)
Bottles, either plastic or glass
Shopping carts
Strollers
Cans or coolers
Fireworks
Weapons and dangerous devices of any type

Unless authorized by Salina Bicentennial Center Staff, the carrying of food and beverages into the arena is prohibited.

If I remember right, at Hartman (5A and 6A State) you could bring in coolers and they had to stay in a restricted area and only certain items could be brought in (fruit, sandwiches, and water). They perform a pretty throrough search through the coolers there too.

Last year they let us take empty water bottles in. Not even that this year. I can survive leaving the cooler in the car and going out there to eat. But I can't accept not being able to bring in an empty jug to fill from the water fountain. We will find a different tournament for that weekend next year.

I think it is fine for individuals to contact the arena, but the real impact will come from the larger and more successful clubs declaring they will not come back.

Those clubs that finished in the top ten carry the real weight. E. Kansas, Maize, Young Guns, Ark City, Brawlers, Great Bend, Abilene, Olathe South, MOKWC, you are the key to changing the food and drink policy (btw, they checked my binocular bag. Sheesh!! This is not a college football game with a fake bi-nocs filled with Jack Daniels.)

If your clubs declare now, that you will not return,the Salina club may be able to get the restrictions lightened up. Otherwise, the directors will simply wave goodbye to a few folks and welcome the other 1300 wrestlers that will undoubtedly return.

Also, I don't buy into the greed argument. This is America. Most of us are trying to maximize our profits based on what the market will bear. I don't begrude anyone seeing what they can charge until the market tells them its too much. Now is the time for the Kansas wrestling market, through the power of its largest and most successful clubs, to tell the Bi-Center that it is not meeting its needs.

When there is a real risk that the tourney will drop from 1400 wrestlers to 500 to 600, the Bi-Center will listen. Until then, this is all just Talkforum chatter.

Everything is negotiable. Get someone started on next year's contract.

Since this tournament is directed by Rich Zimmerman do we all agree that he is the one to take the lead in the negotiations with the Bicentennial Center and if needed ask members of USA Wrestling Kansas to sign a petition that can be presented to the committee that outlines our expectations. It appears that enough people are interested in helping that we could get this done in fairly short order.

Mr. Zimmerman, please let us know what we can do to help you.

they let me bring in my bottle of spit though. she did stop me and when i went to hand it to her she said oh yuck just take it lol.

Directly from Chris @ the Bi-Center

Good morning. I’m sorry you are frustrated. I’ve forwarded your comments and the other emails to the Salina Wrestling Club.

Our concessions prices are not higher than Topeka, Wichita, Dodge City, Independence, KC, Omaha, etc. mid-size facilities in the Midwest region. For kid’s wrestling, we offered healthy options including granola bars, water, Powerade, and box lunches with sandwiches. We will discuss with the promoter potential menu items that the wrestling community enjoys so we can offer more options in the future. We have not changed concession pricing in years FYI.

The city is in the process of upgrading the computer technology at the facility so our patrons can enjoy tablets, laptops, and the like. We look forward to remedying this issue so please be patient as we get these items addressed.

Security has been directed not to allow outside food and beverage into the facility. Salina Wrestling Club also sends this information out in their registration packets. It would be our goal to not have to employ professional security to enforce this rule that has been in place for years. I apologize the security guard approached your situation below in that manner and I will address it personally.

Our staff works tirelessly with the Salina Wrestling Club to make this event happen. We spend weeks preparing and everyone in the community enjoys hosting the event. I am not comfortable with your language via email that makes personal judgments like greed or desiring justification to your satisfaction. Make an appointment with the Salina wrestling club to discuss and if they feel necessary, we’re happy to meet to discuss. Please channel future correspondence through the Salina Wrestling club.

Sincerely,
Chris

From: Jimmy Moison [mailto:jimmy.moison@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:40 PM
To: Chris Bird; dlauver@salinakansas.org; dweiser@salinakansas.org; lpowell@salinakansas.org; ebrown@salinakansas.org
Subject: Salina Kansas TOC
Importance: High

I know you have heard from several people at this point regarding last weekend’s tournament about concessions and the strictness of the security staff. The Salina Wrestling Club did an outstanding job as always, but this year, the concessions were outrageous and the security staff was rude and treated kids as if they were adults. Let me share a personal event that went on in the lobby area:

My son just wrestled a hard match and I took him to the lobby area where we both opened a bag of Peanut M&M’s, a minute or so passed and an armed security guard approached us and said there is no outside food or beverages allowed, I told him that we haven’t been outside, He was quick to remind me that there were no arena food or beverages allowed either and that I should have read the sign on the way out. He turned away and I said it said the arena food and beverages will not be allowed back in after the doors, he said, excuse me, then quickly said “a rule is a rule, everyone else has to follow them as well” The fact of the matter is he was dead wrong. Read the signs and tell me what they say.

My whole point, is that we were paying rock concert prices for concessions that were not fit for a healthy day of wrestling. We were there for 12+ hours and all we had to eat/snack on were hot dogs, candy, pop, NOS energy drinks (that should not be sold to 10 year olds), and more junk food. This is an armature event and it seems as though it was just being a money maker, not even worrying about the sport of wrestling or the people footing the bill. The wrestling community as a whole will begin a petition soon if something doesn’t happen to have the tournament moved elsewhere. I have seen some of the responses from the board and it seems as though nobody really cares. I would like a follow –up regarding this matter please and will not back off until I get a justified and acceptable answer from someone. This weekend was ridiculous

Regards,

Jimmy Moison
785-224-73649

Yesterday I emailed Chris at the Bi-Center. I got the same copied email back from him this morning. It seems to me that he really does not want to listen to what his customers have to say. He is trying to pawn it off to the Salina Wrestling Club as the ones that need to get it fixed.

With 4A State happening here in a couple of weeks he needs to wake up and realize what he has doing. It would be a pure shame for both tournaments to move away from this facility because of the management trying to make the easy dollar and not provide customer service.

I know personnel I would pay a gate fee for reasonable prices and food at the concession stand. This past weekend I paid over $50 for 4 chili pies because that’s all that was left when I had a chance to get there and 4 sodas again that’s all they had. The chili and cheese sauce were cold and did not taste good so that was $50 that went in the trash.

They might as well post in advance when you enter the gate empty your wallet into the trash.

I received the same email this morning which shows they are not taking us very serious. We do have the power as a wrestling community to make this happen.. but as mentioned above we need some of the larger clubs to step up and voice their frustration as well (assuming they had the same experience as we did).

Here is a place to voice your opinion.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bicentennial-center-changes-for-youth-wrestling.html

Here's what he said:

Our staff works tirelessly with the Salina Wrestling Club to make this event happen. We spend weeks preparing and everyone in the community enjoys hosting the event. I am not comfortable with your language via email that makes personal judgments like greed or desiring justification to your satisfaction. Make an appointment with the Salina wrestling club to discuss and if they feel necessary, we’re happy to meet to discuss. Please channel future correspondence through the Salina Wrestling club.

Sincerely,
Chris

The Bi-C folks are happy to meet with the Salina Wrestling Club, which I assume is who they have a contract with...so the door is open. If the host club wants changes, the host facility is willing to talk. Can't ask for anything more than that.

And its a negotiation, for a contract, so don't expect it to be one way.

Another option would be the Salina city commissioners. I wonder if they feel "Chris's" responses are appropriate. From what I have seen on this talk forum they are not. I would think the city has some stake in this event as well. As someone already stated, this event brings mega dollars to the City of Salina. We have wrestled big tournaments before, and have never had a negative experience like the ones mentioned here. I can understand them wanting the food left outside, and I’m sure we would all abide to that, HOWEVER, not allowing outside drinks is another story to me. These are young, and in some case very young (5-6yr old) boys that are wrestling VERY hard. 3 dollars a lick for Gatorade and water is simply outrageous. In a sport that demands so much time, energy, dedication , and not to mention dollars from parents I think the complants about the facility should be addressed. (As do you guys) So here’s the Salina City Commissioners email, and maybe with ALL the efforts we can get something changed. It would be sad to see this tournament fail, its GREAT competition for all of our boys, and ultimately that’s why we all do this- for our boys.

citycommission@salina.org

Not allowing people to bring in empty water bottles so they can't fill up from the free taps speaks volumes to me. Not as if the Salina water is all that palatable to begin with. We stopped going to this one years ago due to the nonsense with getting into a proper Wt/Class/age issue and also the expense of a wannabe nationals, when the real ones don't give you grief at all for this type of stuff. Tulsa Kickoff & Nationals, USJOC @ OKC, Amarillo Nationals TX, Liberty Nationals KCMO, Reno Worlds NV, USAW Nationals Uni Dome, IA, USAW FS/GR Nationals Des Moines, IA etc.. not one has this issue. Only in KS do we punish people for trying to be frugal and conscious of what we eat. These other places I mentioned aren't perfect but they are at least a little more flexible.

Guys, I can tell you that the Bi-Center staff and the Chamber of Commerce are taking your concerns seriously. We've had a meeting earlier this week with the Bi-Center staff to go over these issues. I also have been in contact with both the Bi-Center staff and the Chamber of Commerce several times since, and they have been forwarding me the emails they are receiving from you.

Some of you may have feel by the response that you have received from Mr. Bird that you are not being taken seriously. I can tell you from the discussions we have had that is not the case.

Currently I've been asked to provide the Chamber and Bi-Center with more information on the tournament and I'm working on putting that together now. I hope to have more information for you in the future.

Rich Zimmerman
Tournament Director
Tournament of Champions

Hossus, the "nonsense" that you experienced getting into a proper age and weight class are covered under the Kansas Kids Bylaws Rule 4-4-2 which is on page 22. If you would like that rule changed you would need to follow Article IX, which covers getting Amendments to the Bylaws passed. This is on page 8. These weren't rules that we put in place, just rules that we had to follow.

http://www.usawks.com/Kids/KidsBylaws2012.pdf

Rich Zimmerman
Tournament Director
Tournament of Champions

Rich, At this point I would not start quoting bylaws in an attempt to save face. Hossus made a comment about the past that really has nothing to do with the price gouging and "Fort Knox" style armed security we encountered last weekend... those I know you HAD no control over. The officiating tho you do have control over and after speaking with several officials, you were turned down by many GREAT officials because the compensation did not match the competition level or the extended hours your event brings.. this post is addressing the venue's issues however, I would recommend reevaluating the wages you are offering so we can get quality officials at this tournament next year if all other issues are resolved.

That's OK we were successful in other venues with a lot more clout than TOC and in the right age/weight/class, go figure. Guess there are a lot of scared folks in KS as the weight spreads in OK and elsewhere are often 100 lbs or more. Nobody has died yet from a wrestling match with my son. However, someone might get beat and that is apparently more tragic in KS. To be the best you have to wrestle the best and we have done that in spades.

I don't think Rich is trying to save face as you so put it. Hossus stated a reason why they stopped attending the TOC and Rich quoted a specific rule by Kansas Kids wrestling. That rule goes for all tournaments in KANSAS. Some on you on here seem to be bitching just to be bitching. It sounds like they are working on trying to get things changed. Hopefully the network will allow trackwrestling to be utilized to the max and hopefully the concessions will improve. But the last time I checked the prices are crazy at Topeka also. Maybe next year, they will let the athletes bring in drinks, but if I remember at Topeka at state they were only allowed one bottle of whatever for state wrestling.
As for the officials, that is another story.
Oh yeah we will be back next year either way.

Steve Schroeder
Con-Kids

COOLERS AND BAGS: The Kansas Expocentre will not allow any food, glass containers, or coolers to be brought into Landon Arena. They are under contract for all food, beverage, novelty, and concession services in Exhibition Hall and Landon Arena. If you bring a large bag, do not be alarmed when you are asked to open it!


This is taken from the usawks page under the state championship heading. So if you are worried about salina, get ready for topeka.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x5LcCro0lyo

We all need smiles

Allowing empty bottles should definitely be included in the negotiations. The kids can at least stay hydrated that way. And no, spending $4 for a drink then refilling that bottle is not an option. So just say no when they suggest that.

This same type of discussion comes up about every year in regards to the security guards at the expo center. Not so much at the entrance, but at the stair ways going on and off of the floor mat floor. I am guessing this will be a conversation again after the state tournament.

I keep hearing people referring to Topeka.. The difference between State and Salina TOC is that in Salina you wrestle 6-8 matches in 1 day where at State you wrestle 4-5 matches in 2 days. Plenty of time between matches to go outside and eat and some even are able to leave mid afternoon day 1. No comparison really. On top of that the State tourney is not ran by a club and is under a long term contract through the city. My understanding is that the Salina TOC is an annual contract that can be negotiated and is ran by the Salina Wrestling Club. It states clearly on the Bi-Centennial website "Unless authorized by Salina Bicentennial Center Staff, the carrying of food and beverages into the arena is prohibited" Clearly this is able to be "authorized" .. the point of this post.

At some point parents and coaches need to realize that big venues cost a lot of money, so in order to attend you must be prepared to spend! Salina’s club and the State Tournament committee have no control or the cost of concessions, the venue has contracts for this work they are required to honor. Everyone has the option of going or staying home, make your choice and let the rest go! If I was in charge of the Salina event I would charge 10.00 to get in!

It's time to move on.

This is correct and it should be the same for all. There are things that are better for wrestlers while competing than what the local venue has to offer. If the local venue doesn't offer the same thing or something very similar then they shouldn't prohibit it from being allowed in the building.

Travis,

I didn't see your post before I made mine. You are also correct. High school teams can have coolers but they have to be taken through the invisible well fortified near the dungeon out of site back door (that was my experience last year at Hartman Arena). At least they get to eat what they should and not the stuff that is offered by the facility.

Good thing you are not in charge Tom... you are welcome to move on

Tom,
I am really not sure if you thought my comment was attacking topeka and/or salina, but if that is what you were thinking, you are wrong. I simply said the security at topeka always seems to be brought up as an issue as well.

And as far as parents or coaches realizing that venues cost money. I do realize this. I am not a parent, but I am a coach. We as well have to pay for our venue to run our Hays tournament. So by no means am I trying to put this on the salina club, or on the state committee, as I am well aware of the work it takes to plan and put on a big tournament.

If my comments earlier were taken out of context I apologize. It was not meant as a negative view toward salina club or the state committee.

Osage City Tournament Feb 17th will be selling $2 hotdogs (catsup and mustard are free!!!)

Sorry all, no disrespect to anyone, just trying to promote my small club and tourney....

Carry on!!!!

I remember when you could get a hotdog for a quarter. Good luck with your club and your tournament.

Hotdog for a quarter?? How old are you Lee??????? Collecting Social Security already!!!

Ouch!!!!

Hey all:

So I think we have provided enough ammo for Salina and Rich to get the attention of the Bicentennial Center and make some much needed changes. Again, this is an effort to help the Salina Club as I think we all agree that we need the level of competition from that tournament. Lets just keep the pressure on the venue and hope that things changes. Yes, there is a petition that you can sign. See it here at this link http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bicentennial-center-changes-for-youth-wrestling.html

Again, you all have been great with the support and it is nice to see the community come together and voice our opinion when we all agree that what took place was so far out of line that we needed to help get it changed. Great job to each of you.

At state the kids Were allowed to bring a drink in.

Alright John, you got me, probably not a quarter, maybe closer to 50-60 cents. As far as collecting SS, I am afraid by the time I qualify it may not exist, at least not like it is today. Anyway, back to wrestling and the Salina Thread.

Rich... any news on the talks for next year?

I know its been a week ago, but I think it should be known, There was a kid from Nebraska that came down to wrestle in the TOC, I guess the power went out or the score clock went down or was shut off temporarily after the end of his 2nd period. The official called the kids to the center of the mat raised one kids hand and sent them off. The coach for this Nebraska kid ran out on the mat and told the official they only wrestled two periods. The official said nope they wrestled three periods the match was over. The coach grabbed his video camera and showed the official that they only wrestled two periods, by this time the next match had started, The official said sorry but its over now, So he went to the head table and showed them the tape. They basically said sorry but we cannot do anything about it now. I was so shocked I forgot to ask who won the match, do you guys think they will drive down here next year after that lil mixup?

I did not ask what mat this happened on. He did tell me the Official on mat 12 called a pin on one of his kids, without getting down on the mat to check, further review of the video shows the left shoulder blade was three inches off the mat, It also shows the official giving back points from a standing position......

There was some questionable calls throughout the day on mat 16 I believe. One match included the ref raising the wrong hand of a wrestler at the end of the match and standing by his decision until myself and the other coach told him my wrestler won. This was long after the head official was called over because if his "questionable" calls. But regardless Of all the criticism i really enjoy salina as it offers great competition for all wrestlers

lucas i wish more refs would award back points from a standing position. i see quite a few times by the time the ref gets into position they could have had a 3 count then they dont award any points cause it took to long to get into position.

One of the few times you will see me agree with Lucas....the Officiating at Salina is the worst of any tournament...Novice or Open. The Tournament does not need to be fixed. The Bi-Centinial Center does not need to be contacted. Just get better officials.

Beeson:

It seems like there are at least 60 other people that disagree with your comment above and think the tournament needs to be fixed.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bicentennial-center-changes-for-youth-wrestling.html

It would be cool if you were to start a petition at gopetition.com and see if you hold the majority with your comment not to change it. I do agree with you that the officiating needs to change. You can't pay less money than other tournaments to the guys in stripes to officiate 1400 kids, drive a couple of hours, stay in hotels and buy their own water and food. Eudora paid the officials more money than Salina and they only had 380 kids. Eudora let them go through the concession line as many times as they wanted at no charge. Not saying that the Eudora Tournament was the best tournament ever, but they did not charge a gate, got most wrestlers at least 4 matches and offered healthy alternatives for food and the best pulled pork sandwich in the Country.

Mr. Zimmerman has been provided a public forum to let the wrestling community know what is being done to change the Salina flaws. I know there are several people that are waiting for his response as we are pulling for him.

Cheers!

Have any of these 60 people been to USJOC, Tulsa Kickoff, Tulsa Nationals, Liberty Nationals or any other BIG tournament. This is probably the largest tournament in the State, barring STATE. The prices are comparable, the food options are comparable, the security is a little strict, the competition is the best in the state, and the officiating leaves some to be desired (ALOT). I think the Salina group does a great job. Ark City will continue to support them full heartedly. Without even checking, just knowing the coaches of these clubs: Brawlers, East Kansas, Derby, Garden City, Maize, and all the other clubs that bring the numbers and the competition WILL BE THERE. It's a good tournament, and for good tournaments your going to have to pay.

Hey guys that horse is dead quit beating it.

Did any of those other big tournaments have cheese for their hamburgers? I heard one of the refs complaining so thought I would ask.

Not sure if the 60 people have been to the other tournaments, but one can only assume as some that signed the petition actually offer controverted facts that show opposition to your comment.

Start a petition to keep the tournament the same. If you are happy with things; great! Just not sure you have an audience that supports your comments. Nothing personal, just looking at the big picture and want to offer you an opportunity to allow people to voice an opinion. I suspect you probably won't start it as you may have a gut feeling of what your support may be, but please, start one. We could be completely out of line with a post that has over 6000 views. Lets try to get this to 25000 reads! We will end up with the baddest tournament in Kansas.

PS: Your comment about the big clubs is not accurate. A club in the east was certainly not a fan of the security, table workers, or concessions.

Dead Horses = Dog food and Purina has not yet called. Lets get some answers before we turn things over to the Elmers glue factory.

There once was a huge tournament for many years that WAS the HIGHLIGHT of the season......sadly it struggles.....THE WICHITA CLASSIC.

Do you think that was because it was in horsebarns down there in wichita? Seems like the weekend of the classic, people either head to wichita or hays.

It used to be at Century 2, before Park City then with frisking, concession prices.....the same old situation. Other tournaments are starting to pick up the pace and offer great tournaments.

Beeson I have been reading ur posts for years and ur clueless so ur post is meaningless...Stoudman... u are right.. the unhappy is the majority and if Beeson is even close to being accurate with the big clubs we can just change this to the Salina Big Club tourney because most will not return without change. We brought 17 and without change will not do so again. Maybe our club, East Kansas and a few others can organize a tourney at Haskell College in Lawrence and bring the heat on the east side. I think offering a tourney where we will commit to only the best referees, an open cooler policy and legit competition and have a 1000 kids get at it, will bring plenty and with time dissolve the TOC. Maize and Ark can put on their own show in the west but everyone knows where the numbers are. Not to mention Lawrence would attract many Nebraska and Missouri teams that would put Beeson's so called big club numbers to shame.

My posts may be meaningless, and everyone knows where the numbers are. BUT the fact remains the competition is where the clubs that I mentioned are from. Maize, Derby, East Kansas, Bawlers, Young Guns, Garden City, Boo's School, Salina, and yes my beloved Ark City. These teams year in and year out are in the top 10 at Kids State. Those teams will continue to go and support Salina. So if everyone really wants to see where you stand before State, we will see you in Salina.

Hokahey, better yet, lets wake up the ghosts and gremlins and throw a wrestling party at Allen Fieldhouse. We could call it The Final Four Showdown. Coack Self can sign the winners bracket and Gus Johnson can MC it. Lol

Beeson I have to go with Hokahey, it only takes 5 minutes to start your petition, but as Phippen would say, "I don't think you have the berries to do it.". By the way things looked East Kansas could wrestle themselves and gain the same results that were had in Salina.

Rich, where are you at with your negotiations with the Bicentennial center? You hold the keys to the castle, please let the rest of us know if you plan to continue with your same direction or change venues.

How are they going to change venues? There are no other places around salina that could handle a tournament this size. I think a couple of you should just stay home next year. I don't think they are going to miss your 17 wrestlers. And I might be wrong, but jimmy still wants Clayton to wrestle the best. So they will want to be at salina.

I'm not much for petititions, I let my spending dollar go where I believe it should go. As it stands a week after Tulsa in proximity Salina is the toughest tournament to go to and a good precursor to state. It has a lot of issues as described. I do agree with Beeson though that officials are the key to a good tournament. Concessions don't bother me because I rarely eat at a tournament. If my son wants a bottle of water or something to eat he can go to the car and grab it between rounds (almost 2 hours sometimes). Obviously these things are not the most convinient. Salina doesn't do nearly the price gauging as Brute Adiddas Nationals $90 to coach and $65 to wrestle, not to mention if you make finals and are out of town you have to stay an additional day. At State we are not allowed to bring in outside items either, nor can you at USA Nationals, Middle School Duals or Pre-Season Nationals in Iowa. Although they do not search you quite as extensively. Winter Nationals in Council Bluffs you have to purchase an AAU card for the event, and it is the same weekend as Newton and the Bobcat Classic. I can think of several things I don't like about specific tournament, but what draws me to them is the competition. Take into account when I was in High School I wrestled in a place called the "Pig Palace" in Ark City, it was a morton building with people sitting on folding chairs, not much for convinience, but good competition, also they probably would have let you bring in a six pack. Salina has always been one of my favorite tournaments. Does it have issues, yes, hopefully Zimmerman is doing what he can about the venue as I'm sure Will is since 6 under state will be there in a couple of weeks. If nothing changes, I would probably still return. If another tournament competes with it that has more to offer, I might consider it. As it stands you can't beat the toughness at the Salina TOC. The toughest bracket Cody has ever wrestled in was there 3 years ago. It had something like 6 Tulsa Placers and 12 state finalist in the bracket. It was pretty cool.

Who etched in stone that it NEEDS to be held in Salina?

My brothers, we all know Rich and know he's not a crook - I know he will be working on getting issues resolved for next year. Economics are NOT good right now and this "recession" we are in doesn't make it any better. However, I DO think it's wrong for the Bi-Cent to "gouge" like they did. The security sucked, and the officiating... it just added salt to the wound. It is a good place to find out where you are before state agreed, but the simple fact of the matter, is that it NEEDS to improve...

1. Officiating - primary from all of the feedback
2. Concessions (it’s a 12+ hour tournament, not a 6-8 hour national tournament), my kids would rather eat hot dogs, but should have an option
3. Security – Remove the white glove and have some common sense RAMBO
4. Awards – Have you seen the Roller Series, Brute, AAU, Crown Series trophies? I mean seriously, if you’re going to compare the “venues”! Think there could be some better quality hardware
5. Internet and Track Wrestling – This would alleviate issues with people bouncing all over the place (at least 75%) finding out match numbers, results, and keep the aisles clear.
6. DON’T SELL A DAMNED WRSIT BAND TO GRANNY, MOMMY, AND UNCLE RONNIE!!!!!!!!! Only certified coaches holding a valid USAW coaches card – hell, even make it a Bronze certified event only!

Beeson, you are right (I didn’t really say that did I?) that probably 60% of the state champs come from the Wichita area

Steve, you are right, I will take my boys wherever the competition is, that’s my duty as a Father and coach to give my kids the experiences they need in life. If I didn’t, I (or we) would be the failure, not them.

Jerry, I swear I saw that horse wink at me, so I had to kick once more 

Also, you guys remember back in 2001 after those horrific attacks to the US? Remember how every gas station jacked up the prices of gas to 5+ dollars a gallon? I remember how ENRAGED I was at the oil companies for gouging people at the pumps… Truth is, I went back a week later and got my gas. However, it was a matter of convenience… Something to think about

Peace out my brothas and sistas!

Hey everyone, this post is a new record I believe! Anyone that has posted gets a free $5 gift card to McDonalds in Kanorado Kansas!

Beeson is right that the competiton is tough on that side of the state but we produce champions over here as well.. Not saying you would miss the 17 wrestlers we brought but add the 11 from this club and the 15 from that club and you have now taken a small chunk of the competition away. I am all for it staying in Salina and at the BC but things have to change. As Jimmy mentioned there is a lot of room for improvement and the competition is the only thing that makes this tourney attractive at this point. We are posting to this forum with the intent to make change to THIS tourney. I am all for supporting any club that is willing to put the work in to run a tournament and it is typically ran well however, my 2 hour drive home with a belly ache and being pissed off about the officiating is what prompted me to speak up.

Beeson... I apologize, after rereading my post..the clueless comment was uncalled for but your reply to this post is still meaningless

Hey Trav - Cody can wrestle Mason at St. James. Like I said East Kansas can wrestle themselves and get basically the same result. No need to drive 2 1/2 hours for tough competiton.

On the East side we call that practice!

I have never been to the East Side, and being from Ark City I sure don't want to get into a pissing match about tough wrestling. I wasn't meaning to slight any team or district. My point that the clubs that bring competition will continue to go to Salina for the competition. Tackle the biggest problem first, Officiating. Once that is fixed go to the next biggest problem, in my opinion: Arm Bands allowing everyone in the place to be on the floor. Change takes time, so give it some time.

Scott, No apology needed, but it is accepted. I have pretty thick skin. AND I have been known to run off at the mouth at times.

WHEN have YOU ever run off at the mouth? That comment will require some documentation. I've NEVER seen it.

i have been reading this thread for awhile now and i have come to the conclusion that many kids got screwed at that tourn and the refs where bad but we have to sit back and think that this is not high school boys. we need to keep in mind that yes we want are kids to win but there is always going to be someone better. remember keep it fun cause when all this counts is when they are in high school and wrestling for a championship. does it really matter at this age, mat time is the most critical and keep it positive for them to learn and be a champion no matter what happens on the mat. listening to grown men arguing whos better north,south east west. WHO CARES WRESTLE AND QUIT COMPLAINING OR DO NOT SHOW UP PLAIN AND SIMPLE. ALWAYS REMEMBER IT IS FOR THE KIDS NOT THE PARENTS. GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TONY MILLER

Tell us how old you are tony and where you're from - ask a kid if he likes losing - it's called competition, winning is fun! Always has been, always will be

NO KID LIKES TO LOOSE JIMMY AND YES THAT IS COMPETITION, THAT IS HOW THEY GET BETTER LIKE I SAID CAN NOT WIN THEM ALL. WINNING IS FUN JIMMY AND YES YOU TEACH TO STRIVE TO BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LOOSE TO GET BETTER. JIMMY I JUST WANT TO KEEP THIS THREAD GOING CAUSE YOU SAID WE WOULD GET A 5 DOLLAR GIFT CARD TO MICKEY DEES. KEEP IN MIND IT IS NOT HOW MANY TIMES YOU GET KNOCKED DOWN IT IS HOW MANY TIMES YOU GET UP. I AM 40

If your kids fall in love with winning and not wrestling they will not become champions. Teach them to wrestle to find ways to tap their potential and exploit their opponents. Teach your youngsters that not winning isn't losing but learning. When they don't get their hand raised a hug should be waiting for them and there will be a time to figure out what to do better or differently the next time.

A wrestling career is a marathon, not a sprint. Many of those at the back of the pack will pass those who quit, give up, or slow down. You will be surprised ten years from now those who will stand at the top of the podiums at the HS state tournaments. Give your kids the encouragement and support to finish the marathon.

I'll hitch a ride with you to the Kanorado MCD's when we reach our goal Tony:)

My 6 year old was 2-35 at the end of last season, this year he's winning more and actually excited to wrestle - that's progress

Concessions on Tony Miller at the next Salina tournament. Meet him in the line at noon. I will buy the first round Friday night at the Rusty water Ramada. I want to have a beer with a grown up Mr. Miller, I hope you can attend.

Tony,
I as well have been reading this thread for awhile. I am not sure if you were at this tournament or not, but my biggest thing with the officials this year at the TOC was how unprofessional some of them were, and not willing to show professionalism toward coaches, but yet expected it back when the officials(not all of them)were displaying a threatening manner toward coaches. But one of the main concerns I had with the officials is the safety of the wrestlers, I seen numerous wrestlers get put on their back with illegal chicken wings or bar arms (running hands and arms over the top), as well as being thrown in neck wrenches from the feet. I understand that officials will make mistakes, as well as coaches will make mistakes, and say things they shouldn’t, but when it comes to the safety of young kids someone needs to say something. I would like to say the head official at the TOC remained very professional to us as we went to him with a few concerns.

Rich,
This is a great tournament, with great competition, We plan to come back, but please address the officiating issue to ensure safety for all of the wrestlers.

This is no doubt one of the best posts ever by Mr. Cokeley!!

Excellent post Mr. Cokeley. Where is the town Kanorado? By Goodland?

Yes Cokeley, as my signature states .. There are no losers in wrestling, only winners and learners, but never did I mention there are no poor officials robbing a kid of a victory he knows he deserved. How is that a good thing??? What is that teaching them??? Work hard and do your best and you MIGHT get a fair shake.. not my son thank you.

Scott,

Wrestling is not unlike life. Not everything you will encounter will be fair and just. Unfortunately the distribution of officials is a bell curve. Of course that means those in the left tail will not be very good. Use wrestling to teach the lessons your son will surely encounter in life. Take the good with the bad. I am not saying we shouldn't work to improve things but certainly every wrestler has the opportunity to ensure that even the worst official would not be able to deny them of victory.

Point taken and I mostly agree.. I think as they get older that lesson is easier to explain but at 8 or 9 it is a difficult pill to swallow.

My particular experience was with my 8u son who was up 2 in the semis and at the end of the 2nd period the other wrestler was awarded a take down which was blatantly wrong and my son knew it.(as well as the other coach) I was more upset with him for losing it and crying which ended up costing him the match in the 3rd as he couldn't breathe or focus. The lesson I tried to teach him was to allow us coaches to worry about the calls and for him to wrestle. At his age unfair is unfair!

Thank you for the feedback Will.

Since this thread has mentioned it a number of times...poor officiating..unprofessinalism..etc.(which I see and do agree), what aspects do you coaches, parents, and wrestlers (if need be) like to see in officials. I myself am an official and I am always asking coaches what they like about my stye of what I need to improve on. If you coaches or parents know of a "good offical" get the names out so they can be watched and emulated. I do try my best on evey single match..I feel wrestlers are expected to give 110% therefore snce I chose to be there and I am getting paid I should give even more. I have my phiilosophies I try to use and go by when I officiate. Beleieve me as a coach..I do my damnest to make sure the officail does thier job to their fullest. Please provide feedback on the officials on likes or dislikes. Looks like Bockman started a thread titled.."refs". or pm me..cause I want to provide the highest quality possible when I am on the mat for the wrestlers.

Thanks, ( & be gentle..lol)

Scott Schroeder

Mr. Zimmerman,

Can you give us an idea of where you are at in your discussions with the Bi-C.


http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bicentennial-center-changes-for-youth-wrestling.html

I seriously doubt that rich is going to get back on here to respond. It is their tournament and they will get to working on it when they are ready to.

Good luck this week. Hope all the tournaments run smooth.

Well then Boney... I guess I will have to wait patiently... Thanks for your input