HS Freshman wrestling 14U is a joke

Who benefits from HS freshman wrestling in kids state in the 14U division? The high schoolers? The eighth graders that get their district brackets filled with kids they haven't seen all year? To me this, and the push to include 6U in the state series are the best arguments to change the state cutoff date so that...14u is mainly 7th and 8th grade
12u 5th and 6th
10u 3rd and 4th
and 8u 1st and 2nd
This way HS division is ALL HS and there really isn't a need to have a pre-K/kindergarten division in the state series (6U)

I agree to an extent, some freshman are way lighter than the 106lb high school division though. We had an either grader who had a high school freshman in his bracket that wrestled varsity and was like 40-4 in 4A. I thought that was ridiculous.

On the other hand......at least the high school kid is wrestling in the state series at a time when it seems few others do.

They can still wrestle .... in a division that makes sense for them to be in. High schoolers have been practicing 5 days a week since November...it's apples and oranges

Yes there are a few studs mixed in...but most of these freshman are JV kids and many of them who did wrestle varsity got their tales handed to them all year.

Bottom line they are still wrestling their age.

If you switch the date to Jan01 you still have freshman eligible to wrestle the division and you push more of the 7th graders in with 5th/6th graders. The only true fix is to move it to the next calendar Aug31; which gets us further from the USAW date.

I've studied it some. I agree that there are problems "for some" with the current date. What I haven't found is a date to move it to where we are not just creating problems for "others".

Every Year someone has to boo hoo and cry over this. Suck it up Buttercup, they are wrestling their age division. We welcomed it when Jake was an 8th grader. And had he felt the need to wrestle his freshman year, he would have wrestled 14U. Look at it asachance to get tougher.

Missouri uses the USA date and doesn't allow high schoolers to wrestle 14U seems to work out alright. Someone complains about it every year because it's asinine. No one is boo hoo'ing or crying just pointing out another stupid thing we do in this state. Who would give a crap about a few 7th graders in with 5/6th graders?? I know that this is a complete mystery to some but the reason we are not progressing as a wrestling state is the way that change is received and derided (I'll wait while you look it up) here. Like the ones who came before me who complained about this issue I won't give a crap about it next year because my kid will be in high school and won't have any desire to come off of varsity to wrestle JV in a manner of speaking, but in the mean time year after year we will continue to allow a situation to play out where kids who practice 5 days a week against tougher competition get to come have a field day at a bunch of other kids expense. Then we will sit around and wonder why all the middle schoolers quit.

100% agree with Chad!! Cough, cough. Lol.
But, if your kid is gonna wrestle in HS, then why not welcome the challenge? If I'm mistaken, you're all the same age? So what's the big deal? Are you medal hunting, or looking for competition? High school coaches don't medal hunt, they go where the competition is. Only medal hunting they look at is HS STATE.

And yes, Will welcomed it his 8th grade year, same as Jake.

Go look where they are now as High Schoolers.
It's what it takes.

If your 7th grader is 14, then there's a problem. It's age not grade.

Go to Missouri then....Bye Felicia! I'll wait for you to look it up.

I was responding to this, read the whole thread....and my kid feels the same way about the competition element, I feel differently not because I want to lower the competitive level but because I don't think high schoolers belong in a kids division nor do I think there is any reason for a high school division at all at kids state but that is a topic for another thread. (probably feel that way because I grew up in our backwoods neighbor state Missouri, bunch of hillbillies over there think that their top 10 NCAA Div 1 program makes them special)

I'll make it simple for you. They can wrestle together at 6U, 8U, 10U, and 12U, but at 14U it's just too unfair. I know, doesn't make any sense when you simplify it does it?

From the 1995 film "Friday" didn't have to look it up but this is the exact "we do everything perfect already" attitude I was referring to that's holding KS back

I'll make it simple for you at 14U it's not the same because

1) we don't get to wrestle the freshman until just before districts at the earliest that doesn't happen in any other age group

2) the freshman practice 5 days a week, with better partners that span a 4 year time frame in age (think I already said that one) also doesn't happen for any other age group

the 14U phenomena is a byproduct of another instance where KS does something the states surrounding them don't do and then we sit back and say why is everyone around us better?

your whole counterpoint is predicated ......*whistling*......on the idea that they ARE the same when they are clearly not and this is the only age group where this disparity...........exists. Maybe we should have two state tournaments for everybody to attend like the high schoolers have...now how would somebody go about doing that I wonder?

You're beating a dead horse.
Are you mad your kid got beat out?
Don't know you, with no name attached.
I know for a fact lots of freshman got beat out by 8th graders. Look at the track brackets.
You say, holding Kansas back, I say, those freshman are pushing, the younger ones.
Wrestle, no matter who's in front of you.
And 5 days of practice, has nothing to do with it. Unless you're in a CLUB, that is small and no partners, my suggestion would be move clubs then.

I agree with Chad, move east and quit whining Mr blue.

Kansas if the comments in this thread are representative of our state's common sense, discernment, sense of humor and/or debate skills (my apologies Mr Stanley, Mr Taylor), I'm afraid the road to positive change for the state series will be long and fraught with peril

and because I can't let this slide my last freakin' name is in my GD postscript and I am the only Mr Bluel in the entire state of Kansas, I thought that would narrow it down enough, I'm too lazy to post a picture

club is there too we're pretty big

So should we stop the freshmen from wrestling seniors also? Maybe make a freshman state tourny? Don't want the road to be to tough....

you are making my point for me and you don't even know it

So you are a pharmacist, from Olathe, from a big club. Anything else make you a big deal? There are a lot more things that we are trying to change besides kids wrestling in their allotted age division. I haven't seen you at one of those meetings, making your whining moot.

yes they should wrestle seniors....and juniors and sophomores EXCLUSIVELY that is exactly my point...because they are in high school and already have their own separate competitive venue called high school but for some reason that wasn't enough for somebody and we gave them a division at KIDS state called the high school division and that still wasn't enough so we let the youngest of high schoolers, called freshman, wrestle in the KIDS 14U division which all seems a little bit redundant for no particular reason, THAT IS MY POINT the no particular reason part, can somebody with a brain tell me WHY we do it? "just because" seems like a dumb reason to do anything, we should stop doing all the things that "just because" is the reason for doing them, likewise the "that's the way we've always done it" category.

when I get on this forum and posit that something seems to be out of whack with a particular element of Kansas wrestling my desire is to hear perhaps the well reasoned explanation for why we do it that particular way. Not to have some cretin tell me to suck it up or move. In that vein anybody know how we got to this point with the 14U situation?

also not a dentist, dentist is DDS or DMD

that's it on the edit

I know how we got to this point. Age divisions were 8, 10, 12, 14, 16. 16U division changed to High School Division. 14 year olds were left to choose to wrestle up a division if they wanted.

and that's how it's been for 11? 15? 20 years? and it's perfect right? "Ain't broke, don't fix it" right? that's the way it is and if anyone suggests doing it different they are "the other" and should "suck it up" correct?

Well, again you are wrong. Been like this for about 5 years. Do some research before criticizing kid.

And yes, since you don't know what's going on, don't attend meetings, and don't submit changes to the board, you need to just suck it up.

what year?

Look it up! I can't do all your research kid.

I certainly don't say that and would ask you for evidence "everyone around us" is better.

I will give you a hint how to find out. Go to track wrestling and see when High School Division was added. It could have been as long as 7 years ago, but I'm thinking 5.

2009 was the last year for 16 and under

I have attended meetings, I do know what is going on, and you seem way to self involved to know whether I, or anyone else, has or hasn't. I have stated when I would subject myself to the torture of being on the board as sometime longer than a million years in another thread because I sir am not a masochist. As far as submitting proposals to the board haven't done that but it does seem like moving the submission date up 4 months without really any notice of the wrestling community at large sends a pretty clear message how much the board is interested in changing things

Torture of being on the board? Why, because no matter what is done people are going to complain? Sound Familiar.

They moved it up 4 months? Did that really stop you, or were not going g to do it anyway and now you have an excuse.

Put up or Shut up!

2009 is 8 years which is closer to 10 than 5 but hey I'm not hear to split hairs. the change was made in the hopes that a consolidated high school division would become a Kansas "grand state" without divisional designations/separations that the best of the 4 divisions would come together in the same bracket to settle who the best was at each weight the 14U phenomena was a byproduct, not an intention, of that change. SOUND ABOUT RIGHT. Guess what that pie in the sky idea never has materialized and what we are left with is a JV division that (for the most part) placers don't even bother with and this jacked up 14U situation. So am I just a good guesser or is that how it's played out?

and no not because the constituency would complain but because the board is an old boys club full of guys like you who jump at the chance to shout down anyone who might suggest a different way of doing things.

2009 was last year they had 16, meaning 2010 first year meaning this will be 7. Pay attention kid

That's exactly how I argued it before the state body 8 years ago.

you argued for or against HS div?

because it is an unmitigated failure that never accomplished what it set out to do, and should be scrapped leaving kids state for kids and high school for high school and the 14U gets fixed by a simple cutoff date change that has the BENEFICIAL byproduct of bringing 1/2 of 6U into the state tournament without creating a new division. So how bout you write up the proposal for me, you have until the 15th, I'm too busy saving lives

I argued for it. Allowing kids to wrestle 14U if they could was the only way to get it to pass. The idea was to make a Grand State, which has never even come close. Cowley and others did all they could to get a Grand State Tournament going, but the kids were just not interested. Trust me, I've never been considered one of the good ole boys.

"#9011 - April, 03 2003 09:30 PM Re: 6 & Under State Championship
Coachjt Offline
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 454
Loc: Rose Hill, KS
This topic has been discussed at great length for the last four or five years and it has ran off people from coming to the state meeting because they would argue about it for so long. District II has been pushing to add 6&U at state the other three districts have been apposed.

Now not everyone in district II is in favor nor are all the people in the other districts apposed. But last year we voted for 6&U at state and it got turned down 70% to 30%. This year was the first state meeting without discussing it and it was nice.

The main reason everyone used was it put to much pressure on the 6 yr. olds to wrestle at state."



This was 14-20 years ago - when 14 & under - 16 & under were there own division. We did not even have a school boy dual team in 2003.

Since then more people and volunteers have been run off - participation numbers are down, I am still trying to find the minutes from the last 3 state board meetings, I can not make a proposal by March 15th (which is the new by-law date) because information from the last meetings has not been available for the state body to make an informed proposal. I am watching a once solid organization self destruct - there are many people with good intentions - but some are not willing to listen to those who have stood the test of time and put forth ____________ _______________ energy.

Sean McCarthy

You sell over priced aspirin, let's not over exaggerate into saving lives. Too busy to make a change but not too busy to cry, whine and argue (poorly) with me all night. You are a hypocrite and I am through with you and your whining.

7 years Sean...let's not exaggerate.

You didn't hear that?....5 posts above?....that was the mic hitting the floor

Sounded more like wet tissue hitting the floor, soft, like you.

good one

I apologize, clearly you are married to this issue much more than I estimated as you were the impetus behind it's ratification by the board those many years ago

See you at State. You can apologize then.

sounds good

In a way, this also goes to setting up the whole Middle school season the same time for the whole state. Since it was mentioned how Freshmen wrestling varsity is not seen all year until now, this kinda pertains the same for Middle School Wrestling, since most of a district decides to hold their middle school season later in the folkstyle season than most of the state, and most of those kids (7th and 8th) are not seen until the state championships. I believe Freshman (14&u qualified) should be able to wrestle 14&U, AS LONG as they are not a State Qualifier in the High School Season. If they wrestled at High School State, then they should wrestle High School Division in the kids Folkstyle Series.

Chad not 7 years. This is 2017 subtracted from the year 2003 (that is the year of that post I referenced) 14 years plus the 4 to 5 years = 14-20 years ago - not a stretch Chad. Most of the people - 70 percent back then did not want 6 & under in the state tournament - it is for the long term health of the sport and longevity of the kids participating. Do we want the majority of kids wrestling from 6 - 16 years old or 10-20 years old.

Mr Bluel

This has all been discussed at length before.....


http://www.usawks.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150661&page=1

Change the cutoff to January 1, provide divisional options not available in high school state: Freshman/Sophomore and Junior/Senior instead of "high school" which already exists. I guarantee you increase numbers in the HS and 8U divisions and don't sabotage the 14U division like is done now

Without the freshmen there is an eighth grade division, so why even have it?

I suppose we should tell the world of wrestling guys that their 15U division is unfair and they should stop?

I don't have a dog in the fight at this point in time, but I will reflect on personal experience. My son had the always talked about "bad birthday" late August, so while he was in the 7th grade he wrestled 14u. We could have had the ole pitty party and complained about the rules, but that would not benefit anyone and have done nothing but give him the ole "dad says" reasons for getting his butt kicked or excuses for not working to improve his technique and skills. This was the first year of the HS division and as we looked at the sub and district bracket found the mountain very tall. He didn't shy away but embraced the challenge. He ended up qualifying 3rd at district and had to wrestle a HS state placer at district. Went on to state and first match got beat by HS state placer, but went on to beat 2 other HS kids and beat that same HS state placer in consolation semi finals. Moral of the story embrace the challenge and work to beat those kids and you will always have fond memories, and you might just set them up for a successful HS career. I'm positive my son would not trade the experience it gave him and prepared him for HS wrestling. I also know he wouldn't trade 3 HS team championships for the world.

Paul Finch
Garden City

Mr Bluel I have noticed you sure do cry a lot on this forum about a lot of different things, if you are so unhappy with wrestling in this state than move. I remember going to your south side duals in olathe and my kid ended up wrestling a freshman that was still in high school season, wrestled at your dual on a sunday and got beat, who cares was it fair no but you know what he told me is that he needed to work harder. Not everyone is a winner and not everyone gets a metal if you want something go get and quit whinning cause there is always someone stronger, faster, bigger and more talented.

Taking it from the other direction, according to many of the detractors of this thread's premise, any HS freshman, JV or varsity, state qualifier or not, who would enter the 14U division of kids state when a HS division is available, is a medal hunting bum who is seeking out the easiest bracket to wrestle in. So what about that? KS has a system that allows that to happen. The same people who say toughen up 8th grader, it gets you ready for HS!, what would they say to a freshman state champ who entered 14U? The freshman state champ would probably get booed. Why? well everybody knows why and it's a double standard that we allow and encourage with our nonconformist cutoff date. The competition is super sparse all year at local tournaments for the 8th grade 14U kid, combined weight round robin brackets are the norm, then the state tourney comes around and suddenly their bracket is full of freshman that they have never had a chance to wrestle. That doesn't get you ready for high school or any other scenario, it's ambush by design and it is stupid. Also why have we kept the HS division if it's original intention has never even come close to fruition? I'm not sure how it got changed in the first place. Right now we are 2 surveys in and 5+ years of debate and we still can't decide when to have state next year let alone the format. Instead of a complete overhaul, how bout a cutoff date change coupled with a two week earlier state tourney date preceded by a district tournament the week before in all 4 districts? No subs. Seems more sensible than the radical overhaul/splitting of the tournament that is currently on the table

Smokey,
As I remember the discussion and votes, yes D2 supported 6U being added to the state series. I take issue with your statement that "all the other districts opposed". It was primarily the votes from D1 that carried the issue. It was no coincidence that at that time the so-called 6U state was being hosted by a D1 club. My position was, while I supported 6U being added to the state series for a variety of reasons, I felt then and still do, the use of 64 man brackets for a one day tournament for any age group is not good for the sport. That said, I do not believe the promotion of the 6U age group has anything to do with alleged burnout in the sport. I'm not a believer that burnout is an issue but that is probably a subject for another thread.

I would agree with Mr Bluel, High School should wrestle high school division no matter if they are with in age. We wrestled in PA for 3 years and high school is not allowed to wrestle in youth divisions. Kansas needs to start looking at the states that have great wrestling programs and start to emulate them. (PA, IA, OH, OK)

What was the question again? Hahaha...

I've got an 8th grade 14U and a freshman 14U. The 8th grader qualified for state and the freshman did not. The 8th grader beat out a freshman. To me it's like any other division, the bottom end is going to be tougher.
I do like the idea of keeping HS state qualifiers out of the 14U division, but overall I do not see a problem with the current system.

But you can't keep them out that's the point. My advice to any 14U kid that asks me, if the system stays the way it is, would be to go up and wrestle high school division, at least you know what you are going to get.

With everything on track, you can keep the HS qualifiers out. If they get caught entering the 14U division they are disqualified and not allowed to compete at the tournament.

Haven't these kids wrestled each other for years in the same age group? What is the difference now. If you say competition..I know several kids schedules that are tougher than a lot of HS schedules. If they compete in the summer, they will not get the pleasure of saying HS division...if you are a cadet, you are a cadet.

No they haven't actually, of the 4 freshman in my kid's bracket we hadn't seen any of them over 11 years of competition, of course we would have only had the opportunity every other year, but no. And yeah in the summer a cadet is a cadet for Kansas kids in Missouri a cadet is a cadet year round because they use the USA cutoff year round. in Missouri, and elsewhere (everywhere?) freshman aren't allowed to wrestle 14U. it's apples and oranges because KS uses a different cutoff....this is the crux of the issue

At King of the jungle I witnessed a Junior or Senior who won 30 matches in high school wrestle an 8th grader. It was an expedition match to get the older kid a match. The 8th grader lost, but it was a good match and fun to watch.

At Park City They combined 14u 90-100. I watched a 7th & 8th grader beat a freshman who probably wrested varsity.
I like watching those matches.

Should those young freshman be wrestling Seniors in the state series? What does a 14u 90 or 95 pound freshman do?

My son is 14u 85 now as an 8th grader. Haven't had more than 2 sometimes 3 matched at a Tourn all year. If he wrestles high school div next year at 95, I don't see getting match at all in most Tournaments.

Restated yet another way: there is no rationale for nor is it intentional for the 14U division to be any different than 12U, 10U, 8U or 6U divisions, but it is. It is due to Kansas using a non standard cutoff date for NO APPARENT REASON. If the state tournament date is moved this becomes moot anyway I'm just afraid that may never happen. BUT if it is moved the cutoff date NEEDS to be changed or you will have a one year age group for the entire year not just up until the state series.

I have an 8th grader that got beat by a freshman this year and have absolutely no problem with that, in fact there are more people that feel this way than are responding on this thread. Its good competition and gives us something to work for. There is no problem with the way things are going in 14 under and it is a choice for each kid to make when they are a freshman. They should be able to make that choice without adults ridiculing them or telling them they are a joke if their choice is to wrestle 14 under instead of HS. As coaches and parents we do what we think is best for our wrestlers and no one should feel bullied into making a decision they don’t want to make. I guarantee next year when my 8th grader is a freshman and he decides to wrestle 14 under, 0 f***s will be given to what other adults think about it. If he is doing well and decides to wrestle HS then good for him.

Again, for education purposes, Kansas used to use the January 1st cutoff date. We changed it to be more in line with regional national competitions. It is not our fault that USAW chooses to use another date for those purposes. The September date tends to more closely follow the grade that that athlete should be in. As others have stated, the January 1st date disadvantages the same number of youth, just different ones. If you want to use the January 1st date, feel free to participate in FS/GR.

I grew up wrestling in Iowa, moved to Kansas in 2000, then left and spent 3 years coaching youth wrestling in PA, now I am back in Kansas (which I consider home). Can anyone explain to me why Kansas is so different than any (most) other states when it comes to wrestling divisions and timing of State tournament?
Maybe if we looked at other states and how youth wrestling is run, Kansas would get some respect when it comes to wrestling.
The first thing I heard when we moved to PA was you have no clue about wrestling because you came from KS, that's a basketball state.
Re-align the divisions to match states around us, get the High School Kids out of Youth wrestling, and move the state tournament to end of Feb. like most other states.
A lot of kids have to leave Kansas to get the competition they need to get better (they go wrestle in OK, MO, IA)

You might want to check the post in another thread titled "Kids state review committee". Look for the post about the dates of other state's championships.

Doesn't OK use 15U? I know we skipped going to CO this year because they use a 15U and my son is bottom of 14U here.

"High school kids get to practice 5 days a week" Weak argument. Kids Club kids can practice 5 days a week if they want. In fact Kids Club kids can seek out any club/partner they want across the country to get better. There are way more restrictions on high school kids when to opportunities to get better.

When I was an 8th grader, the old man and I knew I would have some stiff high school competition at kids state. So he took me all over the place to get the best possible competition in the country and help prepare me to win a state title against high school competition. At the end of the State Tournament I was at the top of the podium and below me were 3 freshmen who had placed at high school state.

Moral of the story: If you think your competition is out working you then find opportunities that will help push you past your competition.

I've never understood this argument. Why should a 14 year old not be able to wrestle their age division? Because they haven't had the same "opportunities" as others? Sammy Cokeley and Kayne Hutchinson were Fargo all-Americans this summer. Should they have been allowed to wrestle the high school season against kids who didn't get to go to Fargo? Clay Lautt was a cadet world team member. No way he should have been allowed to wrestle against high school kids. And while we're at it, what are Jaden Cox and Kyle Snyder doing wrestling against college level competition?

Well damn, I get it now, we just have to FORCE all freshman to wrestle kids state! after four years of that we will have the best high school wrestlers in the country! Just like.......I don't know, some other state has surely tapped into this magic formula for success right?

and while we're at it here in Kansas let's get rid of the distinction between Juniors and Cadets they all wrestle folkstyle together let's have em all wrestle freestyle and greco together too, why separate them? let's really leverage this Kansas secret formula!

weight classes too, those are holding the lighter guys back! let em wrestle the big kids, it will toughen them up!

What? Who said anything about forcing high school kids to do anything? I was just saying if you know who your competition is and how they're training then find opportunities to out train and beat your competition.

All I know is Missouri 8th graders don't wrestle freshman and they've won the metro classic 6 years running, how do they do it?

Which is true but doesn't have anything to do with the point of this thread. But if we made the freshmen wrestle the 8th graders as a rule those 8th graders would be forced to get better as per your anecdote and soon we would have the best wrestlers in the USA!

And just how old are those 8th graders?

Kansas to enter kindergarten you must be 5 years old by Aug 31st of the upcoming school year

Missouri to enter kindergarten you must be 5 years old by Aug 1st of the upcoming school year

If the HS kids in your son's bracket had been held back and repeated the 8th grade would they be less talented wrestlers?

And if they are in fact older, would you ban them?

What would be the benefit of not letting High School Freshmen wrestle 14U? Most on this forum seem to agree with the way it is. Why should it change?

It has everything to do with this thread. You're complaining because you feel high school freshmen who are eligible and wrestle in the 14U division have an advantage over 7th graders and 8th graders. I'm telling you your feelings are wrong and giving you a solution to your problem.

Missouri doesn't have a HS division, and being in HS eliminates you from the Kids series. However, once the season is over Cadets wrestle Cadets, some are in HS, some are not.

I'd like to point out that those who are in favor of this have kids that have already experienced it. They have had their 8th Graders wrestle High School kids and welcomed the challenge. Doing so made the kids better in the long run. They had or are having great high school careers. Learn from the voice of experience and quit looking for the easy road for your child. Prepare the child for the path not the path for the child.

AMEN!!

I think the 7/8th graders have the advantage. They can go any where they would like to and get better. Wait till you hit HS. There is a ton of BS that holds the kids back. My son was a WAY better wrestler in 8th grade than he is not in 11th.HS training SUCKS in most schools.Not all of them suck but most do. When people get payed ,they only do what is expected and no more. I know some do but once A gin most do not.I have watched kids that where shooting 20 times a match in 8th grade go to hanging on the head the hole match.My son went to MANY MANY diff-rant spots to train.Only one wile the HS ,is going on. And it shows.

As a old timer that has seen kids go through this transition for years... I would add that you are generally talking about a smaller number of kids that were HS studs and wrestle 14U kids. Most are JV or lower level kids that struggle with the 8th graders or have some moderate success they have not had all year. Anyone wanting to basically protect these 8th graders is only setting them up to for a rude reality in 6 months. If you are worried about them wrestling kids that are in their age group, but got more experience, what are you telling them about 6 months later wrestling kids that are 4-5 year older in some cases? They should have had success in the year before the HS came into the division. Seeing what the next level is will help not hurt them.

I really like the perspective Beeson has in his last post. Many that have already been down this path see a bigger picture and have had kids (their own or ones they have coached) excel by hard work and seeking out the competition, not by trying to get a angle or shelter kids so they can be winners. Wrestling is a rough sport, kids wrestling is about getting better, and wrestling the best competition and getting the best coaching you can to position you for the next level.

To me it's less about this actual issue and more about we are looking for ways to make everything even or fair, when wrestling and life in general should be about if you want something go work for it. Most don't want to admit that is the core issue.

I am not attacking anyone, but I have seen it many times. JMO.

Well said Chad!!

The 14U division is incongruent with the other non-HS kids divisions. when setting up and maintaining a competitive league such a KS kids wrestling it is the function of the overseers to provide for the competitive integrity and congruency of the league. 14U does not meet that standard. It has less than nothing to do with me personally having a beef or concern whatsoever to "prepare the path" for mine or any other kid. I will feel the same way about this issue a year from now feel free to ask me.

"The 14U division is incongruent with the other non-HS kids divisions."

I am trying to understand this statement. The 14U division has kids born over a two year fixed time horizon. Which is the same as 10U and 12U. Both the 8U and HS divisions have kids born over a four year time horizon. With that, I could draw the conclusion that the 14U/8th-grade athlete is given a "more FAIR" playing field than many freshman and 5 year olds.

For those who don't speak crybaby, I think what he's trying to say, "It's Not Fair"

And, Good Point Mark.

I my sons situation he chose 14U over HS because it was more competitive. In the HS divisions he would have walked to state in one weight or only had to win a match in the other weight. I believe in his weight 2 8th & 2 9th are going to state.
Seeing your competition situation is really the same in HS our first match at HS regionals we had never even seen till that day. So many HS go to different tournaments throughout the year.

Lastly, USAWKS does offer the Middle School Championships where you can test your medal against all the other middle school wrestlers in the state. It's not the same as USAWKS Folkstyle State, but it's something and it will give you a gauge of where you stand with other middle schoolers.

I hope this helps.

On the topic of congruence, yes the HS division spans four years in age; however I am opposed to its inclusion in the state series for this reason specifically and its redundancy. As to the 8U division, in my opinion it is the same as 10U and 12U in that it spans only 2 years. There IS a 6U age division, they however are forced to wrestle 8U in the state series as they are not formally included. Read the first post of this thread, it is there that I outline my preference in the alignment of the age groups by grade. My main problem with the 14U age group is the lack of competition throughout the year which may be leading to some of the decline in numbers we are seeing consistently in this age group. Yes in the state series that issue is covered up by the fact that the freshmen are dumped in then. Believe it or not some families are not able to do the significant amount of travelling required to maintain a competitive edge required to prepare for a state series that is incongruent competitively with the available opportunities within the state until the district tournament. Additionally the realignment of the age divisions as I propose in the first post of this thread brings the oldest 1/2 of the 6U division as it stands now into 8U making the debate to include 6U in the state series largely moot. You can then keep or discard the largely ignored HS division the way it is or change it into something that serves a purpose to grow the sport in the state which may be a return to the 16U division. I would bet back in the day there were alot of folks who fought that change, perhaps for good reason as it turns out. I would not simply want the freshmen excluded from the 14U division with the cutoff date as it is now because that would create a 1 year age division and that is not the goal. The goal is to increase the competitive opportunities over the entirety of the season IN THE STATE. Seems like that's the same goal folks give alot of lip service to out of one side of their mouth but then its the opposite out of the other side. The biggest mystery is why do high schoolers have 2 state tournaments and honestly I'm pretty sure that answer is $$

There is more money to be made from 6U at state than the current HS at state. Would have way more numbers and I promise you 6U parents buy more from booths than HS parents do. But I agree HS already has HS State no reason for two unless 90% of the placers signed up but that's not the case.

Fact...currantly and throughout the history of USAWKS there is no and there has never been mention of the 6U division in the USAWKS bylaws. We wrestle 6U in regular season as subset of 8U similar to novice or B brackets at other age divisions.

Point taken but in practice every tournament (with few exceptions) in the state runs a 6U division. Which, it bears mentioning, they might not be compelled to do as often, if the older half of that age group (the more skilled half) were included into a newly realigned 8U that was 1st and 2nd graders as opposed to 2nd and 3rd. (I would also guess that simply by including the older half of 6U you would make up the money lost by discontinuing the HS division)

I agree with Red....my son also (6th grader mind you) wrestled at that also and didn't complain when he wrestled 2 freshman. He lost all his matches but he wrestled, wrestled hard and gave a good run. It only made him want to work harder to get better. I believe anyone can be beat any time, any day, any where by anyone. But like I mentioned, if a freshman, qualified for HS state, he should have to stay in the HS division through the state series and not be allowed to wrestle the 14&U division. Not sure why there is a HS division in the Kids Folkstyle Series, except as a 2nd chance to get a state title, but outside my pay grade....lol

let me ask you this if the state doesn't sanction 6U, who keeps the proceeds from 6U state? hmmmmm

Proceeds from that tourney go to help subsidize team/travel expenses for six teams of the 8U subset trip to Heartland Duals.

Just to be perfectly clear, this is not an issue about high school freshman wrestling 14U and some kind of competitive imbalance that that may cause. It is about the absence of competition for an entire season because half the age group is in high school and barred by KSHSAA from competing in non-HS events (which is another topic). Changing the age group cutoff so it is 7th and 8th graders instead of 8th and 9th is the solution to that problem

well they can't go to just the 8U subset the Heartland Duals are 1st through 6th elementary division and 6th through 8th middle school. By 8u subset do you mean the elementary portion

Yes....it is ran as a combined tourney with the Elementary Dual Qualifier and proceeds go to support the dual teams. I think you are loosing track of what should be at the heart of our mission....wrestling skill development. Lessons can be learned from the structure of both 8U and 14U breakouts. In the 8U division the subset of 6U are first and second year wrestlers. Some develop faster than others but mostly first and second year wrestlers are novice wrestlers who do not need to be in a championship series of tournaments...they will have 7-8 years prior to High School to experience the Championship Series; retention demands we focus on skill development, fun and fundamentals when coaching the 6U subset. Our 8th grade athletes benefit from wrestling Freshman the March before they enter High School and they are in no way harmed. It gets them ready for the future. Our Freshman in the 14U also benefit from coming off an often grinding HS season and wrestle club athletes closer to their own age and skill development than the athletes the wrestled in the HS season. A chance to regroup and hone their budding skills. It's not about how much money each age group generates or how those funds are allocated. It's not about fairness for any single athlete. It's about the age appropriate opportunities we offer ALL our age divisions to improve their skills.

I agree with what you are saying there, even in regards to the 8th grade wrestler in March, however, there is a significant dearth or competition the other 3 months of the season for the 14U wrestler as it is currently structured, so much so that in the balance of things it seems they are significantly shortchanged for 3 months for 2-3 weeks of healthy competition at the end. You don't really lose anything on the 8U end but you gain quite a bit on the 14U end with an adjustment

Maybe the ole 16U division wasn't such a bad idea after all? It also seems much more in line with what the mission of the kids program is/should be as you stated. The HS division, as I've said before, seems to have never achieved it's promise as it was originally pitched. Nor does it seem it ever will. Scrapping HS and reinstating a 16U (freshman/sophomore) division might be just the ticket?

Mark, Absolutely Perfect Response. Exactly the game plan that needs to be implemented to continue to grow Kansas Wrestling.

BB6, did you get your changes written up and submitted?

Although, I do not personally agree with having a High School Division as well, I do not see the State Body ever voting it out. It is a last hoorah for a lot of High School kids to wrestle. This isn't an executive decision, it is a State Body decision.

But you still have to address the 14U issue, it's a one year age group until the state series. If "It's about the age appropriate opportunities we offer ALL our age divisions to improve their skills" we are not doing that for 14U. Arguably the most "at risk" age group. KSHSAA is in charge of HS let's stay out of their jurisdiction so we can focus on developing the high school wrestlers of tomorrow. (Which isn't to say we couldn't dip our toes in with a 16U (freshman/sophomore) division If you like call it a JV division and keep the focus on "improvement of skills"

Nothing to address. Honestly, you are the only one with a problem with 14U.

I have not posted on here for several years, my son is 24 now and has not wrestled for a while. Bigblue I understand your upset because your son lost to McDonald who went to high school state. So what he lost to a better kid his same age get over it. 8TH graders have much more opportunity to seek out the best practices.They can go anywhere they want to get competition but a lot of parents are lazy and would rather complain about the system not being fair.
Tom Baughman

Ok, so 2 days and 6 pages later I guess I'll respond....

1. Brady is 14. His DOB is 4/02 (he will still be 14 after the State series)
2. Brady qualified for 4A HS State (won a couple matches, pleasant suprise!)
3. Brady chose 14u as a last chance to wrestle kids his own age in the State series)
4. 14u was also much more competitive than the HS division in our District . (Since entries were shown for some time, we also saw 14u kids move up to HS later in the week and qualify easily
5. We wrestled Dist 2 last year as 8th grade, like you are upset about, those Wichita schools didn't finish Middle School season until right before the state series! WE HAD TO WORRY ABOUT MIDDLE SCHOOL KIDS AND FRESHMAN! IN THE SAME WEEK!
6. A Jan 1 change wouldn't get rid of the Freshman that are 14!!

I'll stop there for now.

Matt McDonald

1 - I'm sorry Mr. McDonald feels like he has to come to his son's defense. He's done nothing wrong! Good luck at State and I hope to see your son on the podium.
2 - I'm just sick that Mr. Bluel is crying so hard (although not surprised). I wish some parents would emulate what 'most' of us try to teach our kids - that's to win like you lose and lose like you win.
3 - What are you going to do next year when your son is a freshman and 14 wrestling a senior who is 18 years old? Will you complain his mom and dad should've started him in kindergarten maybe a year earlier so a legal adult wasn't wrestling your baby?
4 - I now know why D1 get such a bad rap! Please know there are many, MANY normal parents that (as Beeson has stated over and over on this forum) are preparing their child for the path and do NOT want the path prepared for our child. The world is a cold cruel place!! Life lessons of 'life's not fair' are best learned early.

I have hated this issue for years! We are the ONLY state that allows this. I think it is a great opportunity for 8th graders but I would NEVER let any of my sons wrestle 14U after they have had a season of HS. It was our personal choice to seek opportunities to GET BETTER! A wrestler that has just practiced five days a week for more than three months and wrestled kids that could be four or even five years older has, to me, had significant training advantage, regardless of how awful you might feel your HS coach and schedule are. If EVERYONE approached wrestling as a means of challenging yourself to get better this would not be an issue. However, I respect those who leverage the within the rules option to choose their own path. It just isn't a path I nor any coach who is seeking to develop state champions would choose.

THE NUMBER ONE CHALLENGE WE, AS A WRESTLING COMMUNITY, ARE CONFRONTED WITH IS MISPLACED PRIORITIES. THE NUMBER ONE MISSION OF OUR BOARD, CLUBS, CLUB DIRECTORS, PARENTS, AND COACHES SHOULD BE TO DEVELOP A PASSION FOR WRESTLING AND FIND WAYS TO SUSTAIN THIS PASSION! WINNING IS A BY PRODUCT OF THIS AND IT IS A DANGEROUS FORMULA TO HAVE OUR ATHLETES FALL IN LOVE WITH WINNING ONLY. IT IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER TO KEEP LOOKING FOR WAYS TO WIN INSTEAD OF OPPORTUNITIES TO LEARN AND IMPROVE. TEACHING YOUR WRESTLERS THAT WINNING IS THE ONLY THING IS LIKE HANDING THEM A LOADED GUN AND TELLING THEM TO PULL THE TRIGGER AND EXPECT NO HARM. THERE IS SO MUCH TO ENJOY ABOUT THE GREATEST SPORT ON EARTH. THE SOCIAL ASPECT, THE TRAVEL, THE QUALITY TIME WITH YOUR KIDS, THE CHALLENGE, THE LEARNING, THE EXPERIENCE, ETC. DO NOT KEEP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES OR THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE. LIFE IS ABOUT COPING WITH BEING UNCOMFORTABLE, IT ISN'T ABOUT LOOKING FOR FAIRNESS!!

Holy Cow I don't know how many times I have to say it has nothing to do with my son's individual performance and only secondarily does it have to do with the freshman being allowed to enter the state series in 14U. THE PRIMARY PROBLEM WITH THE 14U AGE GROUP IS IT IS A 1 YEAR AGE GROUP UNTIL THE STATE SERIES. READ THE FIRST POST OF THE THREAD! The problem is an age cutoff that creates that situation, I don't care what you change the cutoff to so long and there are 2 grade levels of kids able to participate in said age group over the course of the season. The insinuation that this thread had anything to do with a single tournament let alone one match is more than ridiculous. It has to do with having to travel all season to national tournaments out of state to consistently get the kind of competition that makes you better. We are lucky enough to manage that, there are many who are not for various reasons, and those kids are being shortchanged the year before high school because of the KS age cutoff. Mr McDonald your son wrestled a great tournament and deserved his win against Ben, hopefully we will get a chance to try again before next weekend's over. Tom Baughman I don't know you and you don't know me. How it is you figure I'm upset, thrilled, puzzled or anything else about anything is beyond me. I never mentioned anyone by name in this thread, that was intentional on my part--don't put words in my mouth. From the first page of this thread my opinion in this matter has been mischaracterized as some kind of pity party I'm having because my kid didn't have the kind of success I wanted him to a district. Nope, not the case. I'm good with me and mine

Every word of this! Cokeley I take back anything bad I ever said about you (I don't think there was anything, but you get my drift) This is everything I'm trying to say in 10x less words, Thank you for the clarity, good to know that I'm apparently NOT the only one who thinks there's a problem with the 14U situation

As stated be for. 8th graders have the advantage. They can seek out better training ,more matches,clinics and travel out of state any time they would like.


As for HS if the program sucks you are stuck. Bad rooms do not make good wrestlers.If you do not train good ,no matter whom you wrestle you will not get better. Kids wrestle like they train.All though kids club my son was pushed.In HS coaches dodge good kids,go to easy match ups.say they can not push the kids for school rules.

Charles Bradford

Big wait till next year :}

I guess we're lucky we're going to be in a great room

BB6 I'm curious why if it has nothing to do with your son, is this the first time that you've brought it up? As long as you've been in wrestling why haven't you drawn up a proposal to make changes?

Don't you guys have a 14U that qualified for HS state this year for Olathe South? If it is the kid that matches up to the track profile, then did you try to talk him into wrestling the HS division?

As I'm sure you've experienced to some degree, the wrestling experience tends to be compartmentalized, age groups, weights, kids, high school, college, etc. I frankly didn't realize the pervasiveness of the virtual desert of competition there was at 14U over the course of the season until I went through it personally with my kid. Likewise as to the OS 14U wrestler I have had little contact with him as I'm personally in the practice room only 1 day a week and his time there has been short, believe me this year will change my discussions for the future athletes I have contact with. I think the way I've managed my son's career speaks for itself. As to this year it's a live a learn situation. But I do know this, my actions or inaction doesn't change the facts of the situation and it's so easy to fix. Bottom line 14U is a 1 year age division until the state series and that alone is enough to want the situation to change for the future of KS wrestling

Having dealt with the small brackets over the course of a season for a few years now, I think getting all the Middle School programs on the same schedule would help this problem. You have most of District 2 wrestling ms Jan through to the week before subs.
Last year my daughter was at the bottom of 14u and an 8th grader. She pretty much wrestled the same 3 kids for 3 months at tournaments.
Not only would this help the club kids, i think it would make MS more competitive

The middle school programs are a thread unto themselves, where we are at they are for all intents and purposes nonexistent which just compounds the issue

My son had never stepped foot on a wrestling mat until his Freshman year in high school. He also happened to fall into the "14U" category for Kids Club after his Freshman high school season. From my perspective, a lot goes into an opponents experience/mat time too! Not EVERY Freshman wrestler has been wrestling since they were 4 years old or even middle school. Not every Freshman is more developed physically than those in middle school. Being a Freshman doesn't automatically classify someone as being stronger, etc. Some Freshman decide to "try" a sport, fall in love with it and want to continue to improve, learn, and develop as a wrestler.

Maybe my sons situation is not the "norm", but I don't think it's fair to assume or generalize that he would have had an "advantage" on everyone in a "14U" class just because he was a Freshman. Nor do I think him wrestling "14U" as a Freshman was a joke. He got mat time, he went up against kids with WAY more experience than him that were in middle school (he won some/he lost some), he did not get completely discouraged by getting TF 5 seconds into a match by high school upperclassman every match with even MORE experience, maturity and strength than him and so, he didn't quit this sport we (as a wrestling community) say we are continuing to try to grow.

He is now a Senior and with only 4 seasons of wrestling, has qualified 2x for 6A State and placed this year at 6A State (in probably one of the toughest 6A weight classes). Currently, he is pursuing college scholarships for wrestling. Have I mentioned that he absolutely loves this sport? Go ask him who he is, he will tell you.."I'm a wrestler". Wrestling definitely defines him and he it! I don't know the outcome would be the same, if the "rule" were different. Thankfully, for him...we don't have to know.

Just thought I'd share a bit into my son's story and maybe put a little different perspective on the subject...

Sonja
"Mama Black"

With every post like the one above I regret my title of this thread more HOWEVER it bears repeating: the competitive disparity between the 8th graders and (most) freshmen is an issue (as Mr Cokeley so eloquently explained) but not the main issue, to me. The main issue is that 14U, an "at risk" age group for the decline in numbers in our sport, has only 1 grade level of competition ALL SEASON until the freshmen get dumped into the mix and that in order to do the things it takes to be competitive, to grow in the sport, you must attend bigger largely out of state tournaments throughout the season which some (most?) competitors families are not able to do for various reasons. Which seems a shame because a simple adjustment in the age cutoff would fix it. NOTICE: if other powers that be have their way in this state, the date of kids state may necessitate a change in the cutoff date

Congratulations to your son Mama Black and thank you for this post. Like Mr. Baughman, I recently returned to the forum after my son graduated HS - 2010 (I now have a grandson wrestling, which is bringing me back). Mr. Cokeley is spot on about the rule benefitting 8th graders more than it does HS wrestlers (in most situations). Many 8th graders used to use this opportunity as a measuring stick to see where they are, when comparing to the next level. Having said that I don't think this is one of the main issues we should be looking at to grow the sport.

It was extremely surprising to me to see the drop in overall wrestlers in our State. I am extremely impressed with the elementary state idea and the six teams that will represent our State. This concept with focus on Olympic styles might be the key to growing the sport. Also, if there was a way to have a few weekends for quality in-state team duals at the elementary school age this might promote the sport even more. Maybe start at a regional level (invitational) and develop a State competition...matches during HS duals etc. Just a thought.

Kyle Snyder anyone want to take on that? World and Olympic champion competing in the NCAA tournament? 63 pounds under Max weight? If your eligible your eligible.

We cannot possibly apply an extreme exception to the general wrestling populous. Kyle is an total anomaly in a good way.