Not a slam...

Further evidence of the pussification of America. Since the officials don't want to answer anymore questions we will just put it down here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVm6oTr3In0

That was considered a slam? Wow, I'm glad I'm not in high school now, because that was completely under control as he stepped through for the turk.

He executed the move as he was suppose to, and taught to do and somehow it is still illegal what a joke.

I feel the reason a officials decided to call that a slam was because they both left the mat and when he came down all his weight landed on the kid and now the officials are supposed to watch the safety of the wrestlers.

Dang Craig. That was embarrassing. Not a slam.

Looked like a good call from my point of view, he( the wrestler in controll) even lifted his left leg off the mat as if to jump to get full impact when they hit the mat.

"This seat reserved for non-wussies." Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell we needed him to ref this match this was a slam I'm still trying to find out when it actually happened?

the wrestler lifted his right leg off of the mat the put the leg in for the turk, and did intentionally lift a lef off the mat to slam the other wrestler.

HORRIBLE call in my opinion!

I personally think the better call would have been potentially dangerous while he had him in the air with his only supporting point taken away by the cross arm. As it really is a potentially dangerous situation.

On the other side I see where the illegal comes in, there was no need to drive his shoulder into the midsection of the other wrestler, so maybe not an illegal slam but still could be constrewed as illegal.

Either way it's over and done with, and it was his call.

From what I saw, one wrestler was far superior than the other. He probably had 10-15 moves that he could have used to put the other wrestler on his back. Why use this move, when he had so many more to choose from? Whether it was an illegal slam or not, I really don't know. Whether or not it was called for, I don't believe it was. If you are that much better than your opponent, just put them away and move on.

Jeez.....................

ok??? i've seen worse, i've seen better. i've seen slams that weren't called, i've seen a slip called a slam. who knows, the ref felt he made the correct call. it had nothing to do with the outcome.

You know, I just read what Alex said, 'it was his call'. If refs will not correct refs then Will is completely right, it is a good ole boy system. We all make mistakes and someone in the right position has to say so, or we never learn. Times are going to be tough in the future, we need to not make our kids wimps.

I watched it again (twice). Times are getting tough, and yes we do not want our kids to grow up to be wimps. What I see is a wrestler practicing a move against an opponent that doesn't have the ability to defend it. Practice your moves in practice and use them when you need them in a match. The cradle looked pretty effective, why not just use that?

So the new rule is do not use moves that are too advanced for your opponent. I agree, that is the way it should be. But, is it in the books?? Or, is it the coach's job to not send him into those kind of matches, very slippery slope. Enough said.

Here is what I am trying to convey. One of my pet peeves over the years has been a wrestler practicing a move against a kid that he could beat without having to do so. I don't like the take him down, let him up, take him down, let him up, take him down, let him up, take him down, let him up, etc. Practice your moves in practice, use them when you need to, but when you are decisively better than your opponent, make short work of them without possibly causing them injury. I don't have a dog in this race, I am just saying that you can beat an opponent that does not have your talent without beating them up.

Well said Lee. I have always told my wrestlers that the most humane thing you can do to a less talented opponent is to take them down and pin them as quickly as possible and get them off the mat. What do you accomplish in humiliating or hurting someone who can't defend themself. That is definitely a speech I give to my better wrestlers the first round of a tournament. They don't always follow my advice, but they are usually reminded of it when the match is over.

The wrestler was lucky his opponent got up! An uneccessary move could have cost a championship. Whether the move was legal or not, it was uneccessary. Did he not have the ability or technique to pin him when he had him on his back the first time? In the winners defense, he did the right thing after the penalty by not showing any emotion and just going to work for a quick fall.

Would it not be better for the experienced wrestler to also practice moves, and as well the less experienced wrestler would be able to look back at the tape to see how to get out of certain positions and how to defend himself better?

We should start a new rule. A wrestler must have compassion over an opponent with lesser skills. They must limit their offensive moves to single leg attacks and half nelsons only.

i personally don't have a problem with mat time. when a kid lets one of our wrestlers up, it gives us more time to see "real time" moves. learning the sport of wrestling can not be restricted to the practice room only. just as it can not be restricted to one or two practice partners. you must learn from anyone, anywhere, anytime you can. i have told our kids that the only person that can change the outcome of a match is themselves. with that most of them get tired of being taken down, and learn to sprawl. in this case learn to eat a cross face and refuse to give up your post (elbow).

So the question I have is this: Let's say the ref calls nothing and instead of the defensive wrestler popping right up, he gets his shoulder dislocated, or broken collarbone and out the rest of the season? What would you all be calling for then? I'd bet everyone would be raking this guy over the coals for letting rough wrestling go and not calling it by the rules!

Once again: "RULE 7, SEC. 1, ART. 1: A slam is lifting and returning an opponent to the mat with unnecessary force. This infraction may be committed by a contestant in either the top or bottom position on the mat, as well as during a takedown. A slam shall be called without hesitation."

Shane, this reasoning has led many officials to only make the call once the wrestler is hurt. It happened at Eudora in a 215 match. Had the wrestler not been hurt, the call would have never been made.

Eric,

So are you saying this should have been called a slam or not? I'm confused.

Should we wait until a kid is hurt before we call it or should we (as the official did) call it before it gets out of hand?

I know officials make mistakes but the problem is none of them will admit to it. They circle their wagons and quote the rule book just like Koranda (btw, I have a few clips of you too! ). This would not have been whistled in Tulsa or any other out of state tournament I have attended so are we that much more soft in Kansas?? I know that many of you dissenters are doing so not because you really think it was a slam, you just like to disagree with me. I have grown weary of the good ole boy official system. It is time to call it like it is and the forum is a great place for the unidentifiable to put in their two cents for bad officials since KSHSAA won't evaluate them.

Ryne has performed the step through turk on many occasions and this was the first ever called a slam. If you think there was unnecessary force then you really are pussifying the sport. It is a contact/combat sport and there will be injuries from time to time. We want to train the wrestlers to repitiously perfect moves and high level of precision and force but now we are supposed to say (well, if the guy isn't very good you better limit your moves and pin him quickly with a "safe" move. Jeeze, lets just put flags on them and see who can yank them off the most during the six minutes! "Humane" and "Pet peeve" is this the PETA forum or I mean PETW forum or what? It was NOT a slam and should NOT have whistled. The wrestler was barely lifted from the mat and he was taken in control with force back to the mat but not unnecessary force. If you step on the varsity mat, strap it on and be ready. Injuries happen in perfectly legally executed moves just like they do on the football field. Next thing you know you fellow pussifiers will be asking them to ban the crash play at home plate or the breaking up of a double play.

You have been coaching how long? Maybe too long... I am just saying, you are going to criticize a wrestler for going out and using too wide of a variety of moves?? Coach Alley "Ok Jake or Zach or Alex, this guy sucks, do NOT cross face him or blast double him. Make sure that you do NOT whizzer into his shoulder too hard because he doesn't know how to counter that. Oh, I will bench your butt if you pick him up in the air and don't put him back down softly enough!" Give me a break.

All of you guys need to watch the defensive wrestler. He didn't wince, lay there, grab anything or cry, he wondered why the match was being stopped. He was thinking "OMG Ref, you are making me look like a puss! Lets wrestle!"

The wrestler was lucky his opponent got up! An uneccessary move could have cost a championship. Whether the move was legal or not, it was uneccessary. Did he not have the ability or technique to pin him when he had him on his back the first time? In the winners defense, he did the right thing after the penalty by not showing any emotion and just going to work for a quick fall.

Will, its obvious by more than just you that I've been coaching too long but if I quit, the only thing I'd be qualified to do is officiate. As far as what I tell my kids has nothing to do with eliminating or softening a move. My point is, he was wrestling in the first round of a tournament, what if the kid would have laid down. Its happened before to some of my wrestlers. What kind of comments would we have seen from you on here then? I didn't say the move was illegal or unsportsmanlike only unnecessary in that situation.

Now for the your other problem, "the good ole boy's". How can we remedy this group of guys who cover each others backs. Bottom line is we need more new officials. We need guys who know the rules and how to make correct calls. Get them to take the test and sign up. If we can get new officials who can make the right calls, the old guys will surprisingly just vanish away. If you have any prospects you might sign up I mean encourage them to sign up.

As I stated earlier, I disagree that this was a slam. At Eudora, the call was originally not considered a slam. As soon as the wrestler appeared hurt, the call was made. The point is, attempt to make the call on it's merit, not on it's effect.

seconded.

I'm not sure if this has been said yet on this thread. None of this is a personal issue with Craig Ewert. I believe Craig is a respected official. I think Will would join me in counting him as one of our good guys. Everybody misses a call. Learn and move forward!

And/or thinks somebody missed one!

When these interesting rule interpretations arise locally I like to pass them along to the officials who participate on the NFHS officials' website. That site is pretty much strictly a rules interpretation forum and since the participants are from all over the U.S. and no one has any personal bias or interest other than getting the call right, it is a pretty good resource for calm and rational discussion (usually).

Videos make it much easier to evaluate any given situation. I posted this video on the NFHS site this afternoon and so far the [/s]four[s] seven officials that viewed it and commented have concluded that a slam call was appropriate. I imagine that a few more officials will weigh in, but often if the call is pretty clear-cut you don't get as much discussion as when there is a disagreement of opinion. Anyone interested in why these officials believe it was a slam can view those opinions here:

http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=17

PS: If you think the officials on the national web site all stick up for one another, you can read through the posts and see that there are some very heated discussions, and disagreements, on calls. But none so far on this one.

Bob Ford
Official

If I would have posted it when a slam wasn't called the same four officials would have agreed that it wasn't a slam. There is a serious issue with being able to object to another official's call.

I showed my wife the video last night and she thought the official made the appropriate call. Why should I take any stock in what she thinks, she never wrestled competitively.

Well, her dad coached high school wrestling in Nebraska, then he contributed to starting junior high wrestling here in Lawrence way back. Both of her brothers wrestled, and her dad had her practice with her older brother at home so he could learn his moves. She was the wrestling manager in high school. Three of her sons wrestled (two still do). Her husband and his brother both wrestled. So, kind of like Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny, I will allow her testimony.

Besides, after twenty years of marriage, I have never known her to be wrong.

When I get time this week I will post links to the same move by the same wrestler in KS 4A competition not called a slam. Lee, why don't you just stay out of it if you are going to involve moms. The emasculation of the education system is already so far out of control why do you want to add to it by polling a mom. Perhaps all of her wrestling experience was in Kansas, I am just saying. The quote from the official after this match was "Ryne was way better than his opponent and should have known better." Show me that in a rule book? I have discussed introduction of the "Lee Girard" section to the rule book. See the "Question" post.

You would have to be a blind person not to have seen this one coming!

it was a very close call and everyone needs to see that. from what it looked like to me, it might have been a slam. not intentional of course by the better wrestler.. buut it did appear to me that his knee left the matt before his opponents back hit. the ref was right on top of them when it happened. unlike you cokeley, just saying.

Will,
Rarely will I address anyone in paticular when posting. However in this thread you claimed that you could post the same situation when the move was not called. You appear to make the claim that the post on the national forum is tainted and objectivity is being overlooked.

I would ask this: Is it possible that you are having trouble seeing the forest, for all the trees? With your personal interests involved, it might be difficult for you to be objective as well.

I see the situation this way. As an individual that appreciates a very physical match, I think it could have gone either way. I believe the call was made correctly, based on the way the rule is written. It probably should have been called. I wouldn't have liked it, and it could be considered ticky-tack, but correct none the less. As Ryne's coach, I would have been disappointed with the call. I probably would have asked for clarification, and maybe half-heartedly argued a bit. But in the end, I would feel lucky that my wrestler handled it appropriately (which Ryne did very well - you should be very proud) and that the other wrestler got up and continued to wrestle as opposed to taking a dive to pick up a cheap win.

It's not right to claim that everyone whom disagrees with your lack of objectivity is contibuting to the wussification of the sport, especially in Kansas. With Coach Shelton's (Valley Center) initive to train and encourage his team to become future referees, and the boys down at Kansas South (Oklahoma U.), and Coach Alley's influence on the wrestling mats of Kansas, (just to name a few of the many things in Kansas of which we can be proud)I think we are moving wrestling in this state in a positve direction.

I agree with Jason... It's a slam by the letter of the rule. HOWEVER, as a coach, I would have complained that it's wrestling and meant to be rough. Will's right, out of state that would not have been called. I disagree with those that say when you wrestle an inferior opponent you should just complete the move and get it over with. In my experience, sometimes you have to "break" an opponent to earn the pin, win etc... Some young "lesser" wrestlers are pretty darn tough and don't always give up their back that easily... Should you physically abuse and humilaite someone? No. But being physical and mean is part of the deal.

It's varsity, it's wrestling, strap it on or stay at home.

2 very good posts. Thanks guys.

And that's always the rub...the officials must know the rules and are responsible for their enforcement and interpretation. The coaches, parents, and fans, who may or may not know either the letter or the spirit of the rules, have the luxury of second guessing every close call after the fact, sometimes with the benefit of a video and slow motion.And there is nothing wrong with discussing close calls. That is exactly what the NFHS federation web site for officials is all about. The easy calls don't get much discussion.

I again encourage anyone who is interested in how other officials from other states view this situation to visit the national federation's web-site were this video is posted. You can agree or disagree with those officials, as you can agree or disagree with our Kansas officials, but so far every one of those officials have said this was a slam and most have indicated it wasn't even close. For them, this is an "easy" call and not worth much discussion.So while you can believe officials in other state's might call it differently, so far I haven't found one that says so.

OK, might as well put my head in the lion's mouth here...lol

First, not actually being there, I honestly don't know if I'd have called it a slam or not. What I will say that there were three things in about a five-second sequence on the tape that might have LED me to call it. One was back mule-kick Ryne did to pull the kid up; when you do a high-amp move, people, including the official, notice it. Two was the fact that at about 1:02 on the tape, as Ryne applied the turk, all four feet left the mat (Ryne's and his opponents)and finally, it appeared as if there might have been "downward force" to the mat. With those three factors, I can see why it was called. I'm not saying it was right, I'm saying I can see why it was called. While I can't think of the official's name, he looked familiar, and as I recall, he is good.

Second, why is this an issue? The other kid hopped right up and went right back to his position, and about 20 seconds later he got pinned with a nifty cradle -- personally I prefer extended arms, but that's just me. He didn't puss-out, claim a false injury and take the cheap win.

I like the whole "pussification" thing. Sarah Palin makes up words alot and I think she's very funny. The thing is that wrestling is not a sport of brutality; it is a sport of balance, position, technique and heart. My father was an official in Iowa for 36 years. He did 20 State meets, six Division II NCAA tournaments, the Big Tens, and dozens of Iowa and Northern Iowa meets over the years and is in the IHSAA Hall of Fame. He always preached one thing to me: if you're going to be wrong, be wrong on the side of safety. That's what it should be about.

Anyway, I await the responses and GO CHIEFS!!!!

Cheif Are you sure about the halfs, and singles.. That is too advanced for some as well. In cases like this, maybe the kid should of just ask the the opponent to roll over.

Horrible Call.

"The thing is that wrestling is not a sport of brutality; it is a sport of balance, position, technique and heart."

Good point...

And sportsmanship....in high school sports, sportsmanship is emphasized.

Will's constant refrain that the sport, schools, and society are becoming softer or less manly or however you want to characterize it is absolutely correct. There are so many examples of that trend that it can't be denied. And that's exactly why each year new rules are being adopted that makes wrestling less of a "combat" sport. Football, too. Things that were perfectly legal a few years ago are now penalized. Rail against it if you will, but that's the way our society is trending.

Rford,

Yes, sportsmanship. Up here in Iowa, we get the whole Tom Brands-pychobabble constantly. "It's about PAIN! It's about DOMINATION!"

You can win, you can beat someone badly, and not have it come off like a cage match. Somewhere that got lost.

Bob, Bob, Bob. Officials DON'T always know the rules better than the coaches and parents. Absent of evaulations there is no measuring of the performance of officials except by a fellow official who dishes out assignments. Since that official is held to the officials code of silence when it comes to being critical then there is NO accountability. Officials, for the most part, will NOT object to a call, they will either agree or take the vow of silence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kU0L9ewdVQ

The long awaited clip of the same move... 2010 4A Regional Semis. Look at the 1:28 to 1:30 part of the match. In this instance a proper non call was made as it is not a slam in either instance.

I have a clip from Gardner and Iowa I will post of possible slam situations and see how you feel about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H9pqoSW64w

Go to the 3 minute mark and watch the lift and return. I am not going to say it was or wasn't but I will say that Ryne learned to quit standing around waiting for a stall call. That will get you tossed on your head. Get your hips out and fight for position. This match was in a dual against Davenport West at the Iowa City West Lepic Duals.

This was not a slam, the wrestler in controll put his hand down to stop his weight from crushing the bottom man. Its two differnt finishes.

While that is not really the rule I won't disagree however that being said, in each of these two additional sequences the defensive wrestler hit the mat WAY harder than Ryne's Mill Valley opponent and I would lean towards saying "unnecessary force" would be a force that was more extreme, not less extreme. It doesn't matter who hits the mat first or if it is under control. The rule says "RULE 7, SEC. 1, ART. 1: A slam is lifting and returning an opponent to the mat with unnecessary force. This infraction may be committed by a contestant in either the top or bottom position on the mat, as well as during a takedown. A slam shall be called without hesitation." By the way, I am really not sure which match you are referring to Kevin. I would like to stress that the rule does NOT say you can't use FORCE, it says you cannot use UNNECESSARY FORCE. I would not have called any of them slams. All good, hard wrestling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yhNRqtroag

You make the call. 12-14 seconds into the match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ygzdj0MYQ

How about this one? Just for fun. It was 3 points during the real wrestling season.

Sorry Will i was referring to the 1 that started this whole thing and the 1 you posted at 11:55 today, same move differnt finish.

Just get over it Will, the call was made and life goes on. If he doesn't want to put himself in that situation again, use a different finish. It's that simple.

The obvious point made is one person's judgement is not the same as another's. That is why it is called a slam by one official, not called a slam by another one, etc... The one big thing though against YOUR judgement is the NFHS forum of officials unamimously said it was a slam...

I also see you're a registered official Will, do you berate your fellow co-workers outside the wrestling world like you do here?

The Gardner Finals was a slam imo. Awful close to an unsportsmanlike call after the pin. We've done less and been hit before.
The Iowa dual looked clean I thought.

The freestyle match, I'd seen before. Pretty! Would have passed in a collegiate style match imo.

i was trying to recruit some new officials and am having some issues. parents on the ks kids forum believe that young officials suck, people on the high school forum think older officials suck. either way i hope that i don't fit in to any of those categories, young, old,or sucky. but i wanted to clarify before i talk these guys to swear in, do we take the vow of silence before or after we wear robes and ride the goat?

1st one is a slam, 2nd is not

The subsequent videos have almost nothing in common with the first video. The only similarity between the first video and subsequent videos is that wrestlers were returned to the mat with some force.

The only video that shows unnecessary force is the one in the first post.

Any time a wrestler who has lifted an opponent leaves his feet to accelerate the downward force with which his opponent hits the mat while simultaneously positioning himself to drive his shoulder into the chest of his opponent upon impact - I'm calling a slam. I'll do so without hesitation. The additional force and subsequent intensified impact were simply unnecessary.

You can call me terrible. You can accuse me of furthering the pussification of America. You can say whatever you want.

It's not going to bother me at all.

InsideTheStripes
I wish I could get commission for all of the guys who make their first post ever responding to one my posts and usually disagreeing. I don't think I will be calling you anything but "Who the heck are you?" since you have failed to place your name at the bottom of your skewed view. The initial video and the 2nd link are the exact same move with the exception that the 2nd link the defensive wrestler was elevated to an even greater height before being returned to the mat with even greater force and impact than the first.

Donkeywrestler, I am not sure what I am to get over. I am posting several opportunities for everyone to view possible slam situations and form their opinion just as I have voiced mine. In addition, I do NOT consider other registered officials as "fellow employees" so I am not sure what my conduct at my place of employment has to do with this post or any other for that matter. If you don't like reading or looking at my posts please refrain from doing so. I am not changing the way I conduct myself on here, especiallly for you.

I'm not exactly sure the State Freestyle & Greco Director should be publicly berating officials on here either, that I do have a major issue with.

I would think our directors would support those supporting our sport instead of berating them and telling them how it should be done.

Accountability should serve as an opportunity to improve. I would expect our directors to speak their mind! Isn't that why their directors?

NO chief! director's should make the changes that they see to improve the sport for Kansas Wrestling. there is a difference. i'm not trying to infringe on anyone's freedom of speech here, but i have seen this same type of argument on these threads for over 5 years. not once have i seen anyone, will included, give a solid proposal to how they would make a rating, evaluation, or ranking process work.

that is what a state director should do. sorry will, we need solutions here. posting these videos is a start, but where does it go from here?

Are you a member of USA Wrestling? What have you done to further the sport? Where am I berating officials on this post? I just posted a video and my opinion. I do think that wrestling in Kansas is NOT as tough as it is in other states and I think it is particularly soft in Johnson County.

http://uswoawrestlingofficials.com/uswoa_home.htm


If you don't like how I do things then it is your turn to step up and do something to advance the sport. You can start by becoming one of just a handful of USWOA members. Kansas is consistently in the top 5 for wrestling and coach members and consistently in the bottom 10 of the number of officials we have. Instead of running your mouth (figuratively speaking) do something to make things better. Perhaps you have some links of you officiating matches that could help others learn better mechanics? Perhaps you will start getting some younger officials involved in an effort to improve officiating? You have lots of problems with me and you have had no problem jumping on here and pointing them out. Now I am calling you out. What have you done to improve Kansas wrestling?????

Situation Officials working in far corners of State or for only one League are not receiving enough votes to qualify for Post Season work due to following Most tournament include Out of State Teams ( not allowed to vote)
1. Multiple events with same schools result in only one vote
2. Late January and early February events do not count for post season voting due to mid January voting requirement

Target Develop Evaluation Process to support Post Season Official Selection

Evaluation to credit by meet or tournament
All Coaches/ Schools evaluate all officials
Composite score available for each event
Average Composite Score available weekly

Proposal Design Official Rating System

Officials distribute ID card to each Coach/School at meet or tournament
Card to contain following information – Front

Name
Address
Phone Number
Official ID Number

Card to have 4 Category Rating System with ratings 1-5- Back

Appearance / Mat Presence _______
Knowledge of Rules _______
Administration of Rules _______
Pre and Post Match Duties _______

Rating by Coach -total points possible 20 per event
Mark score for each Category
Total score divided by 4 provides Coach’s Composite Score for event
In Dual Meet both Coaches provide completed card to AD.
In Tournament All Coaches provide completed card to AD.
AD logs on the KSHSAA Web Site enters composite score and number of teams after conclusion of event
Official can log in and “read-only” their up to date rating.
State uses system to rank official for post season selection based on composite score and number of events/entries.



Advantages of proposed Ranking System

All Coaches will evaluate officials and provide feedback
Officials get recognized for all matches worked (Officials working the same teams week in and week out will be evaluated for every event not just one vote from the team).

Late Season events will count in post season collection selection process

Coaches input will allow officials to understand both sides of difficult situations without conflict.

State may use Evaluation System for post season selection using both Quality of Rating and Overall Score Average (total score divided by number of ratings)

Selection Process will allow KSHSAA to make selection based on weekly data instead of possible emotional votes, and eliminates the “campaigning” for votes that takes place now in some situations.

Tournament Directors may use rating system to select officials for future events.

Area Supervisors could use rankings to assign mentors or more experience officials to the younger officials

Eliminates the “Good Ole Boy” system, selection based on facts and data.



Disadvantages of Ranking System

Additional work by KSHSAA to set up system with passwords and viewing privileges

Coaches will be required to turn in rating to Event Manager

Event Manager will be required to collect ratings and enter into KSHSAA web site

Eliminates the “Good Ole Boy” system in use for many years, Official may not feel comfortable with new system.


Week Ending 12-26 Week Ending Jan-9 Week Ending Jan 16 Week Ending Jan 23 Week Ending Jan 30 Week Ending Feb 6 Week Ending Feb 13 Week Ending Feb 20 Totals
Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total Ave # Team Total
3.8 2 7.6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.9 34 132.6
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 4 16 0 3.75 16 60 0 4 10 40 0 0 0 3.8875 40 155.5
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Area Supervisors should NOT be on the mat. They should be traveling to the tournaments and evaluating the officials. We could even employee those who have been officials for years and have lost the physical ability to be in good position to travel to tournaments to evaluate officials. Some wrestlers are training more in one year than most of our officials have prepared in their total careers. Don't our wrestlers deserve the BEST officials at state? The current process provides us with the most POPULAR officials from a AD perspective. How many AD's actually attend tournaments? Absent a true grading system we will continue to see the same officials who are the best at schmoozing not the best at making the right calls in the matches that matter the most.

Josh,

That proposal was presented to Rick Bowden and I am pretty sure he promptly round filed it. You should know better than to think I am just going to whine and not try to fix something I don't like. I am just saying, you know me.

Do they currently have an evaluation process for other sports officials. If not, what makes wrestling so special as to deserve one?

I would say that they need one for all sports. A few years ago in your home town we had an officials meeting attended by Rick Bowden. Our guest speaker from the NCAA told Rick that our system was nothing but a "good ole boy network" and that we needed to put an evaluation system in place or we would be headed for disaster. So here we are... You should not get a job because of who you are but instead because you are the best person for the job. It is not ok to have the same officials doing the same tournaments 20 years in a row.

Iknow you very well,and knew damn well that you had worked on this. now that the proposal is in the open some people like alex will see that there is more thought into this other than complaining about officials. btw i have no problem with you or anyone else giving me your point of view on my officiating, but you know it's all in the delivery, . i was just trying to help out, and get something constructive out of this.

Oh how dare you use my real name, now i have to come up with something new, way to go. JA.

I wrestled through JRH, HS, some college, and through the kids federation as long as I was able from the time I started. Immediately following my wrestling career ending I have began officaiting full time. The first few years I was strictly a kid's only official, and in the last few years have transitioned to more High School and doing one college open. I have since became USAWKS, KSHSAA, NCAA, & NWCA certified.

I have not joined the USAWOA or the KWOA. I have no interest in regional or national freestyle, greco, beach, or folkstyle tournaments so feel no need to joing the USAWOA as it will not benefit me. I have not joined the KWOA simply because I'm not sure it will benfit me anymore than the training already provided by the KSHSAA staff or the information readily available through public pathways.

I recently inquried about joining the board of directors for a local kids club, as well as asked about volunteering my time to help coach one night a week as it's all the free time I have between my job & my responsibilities at home with a kid on the way and officiating on the weekends.

I helped coach the group of Kansas kids who went to Brute Adidas Nationals in I believe it was 2006 when it was in Omaha.

I think I have done my fair share at this point in my life but there is always those who have done more, or the resources to do more.



The first part of this does nothing but call out all the officials because we don't turn against each other and point fingers.

A wrestler's safety is not the pussification of Wrestling, America, or our Youth. It's about mainting a safe environment for which we as officials are responsible. Must a kid get hurt everytime to have it called unnecessary force?



Great way to represent the sport of wrestling and it's participants. Nothing like telling a well respected coach he's been coaching too long and needs to get out of the sport? Why so some hot head such as yourself can come in and do it the "right way"?



Your supposed "Good Ol Boys" system is not only in Kansas then, it must be a nationwide thing... those 7 guys who agreed it was a slam are from all over.

From the KSHSAA Code of Ethics...
...I will cooperate with the news media in the interpretation and clarification of rules and/or other areas relating
to good sportsmanship, but I will not make statements concerning decisions made during the contest...

Even on this I am guilty, with that said I wish you a good day.

Will: Of the three you posted, here is one man's opinion.
Gardner finals -- I would have called it. High lift, downward force (and Ryne's reaction was a giveaway -- hands to the side). And the kid bounced.
Iowa City -- Nope. Offensive wrestler looked like he had complete control top to bottom.
Regional semis (was that DeSoto?) -- Yep, same move. Nope, not same finish. Ryne always had at least one foot in contact with the mat, which usually constitutes offensive body control. Against the Mill Valley kid, there was a lot more force.

Biggest issue is that Ryne is a phenominal wrestler, especially in freestyle and (I would assume) greco. Officials who are not as familiar with those styles are going to be more prone to call slams than those who aren't. I had a kid at Imac 10 years ago throw a side suplay once (folkstyle legal) and the official called him for it, because he didn't know the difference.

Ryne has really developed Will; that turk is a beauty and has always been a favorite of mine (although I never had anyone who could do it half that well). Hope he finishes up a great career with number 4!!!

Yeah, that was a good teaching moment!

You don't change the way you wrestle just because your wrestling someone of lesser skill. You go hard for 6 minutes, you do what your taught in the room, your given something and you react to it. Not a slam in my opinion.