Kansas Rule Changes 2012

KWCA and KCA is calling for proposals for KANSAS rule changes or modifications. Air your ideas here and let the discussion begin. Play nice!

5 match rule moved to 6 matches so teams can host 16 man bracket tournaments in a day and not have to default medal matches.

5 match rule!

Are they going to legitimately listen this year, or are we wasting our time? The 5 match rule is a no brainer. Also allowing training over Christmas and other breaks would be helpful. As well as the travel rule. I also like Will's idea of a certain amount of points that can only be used for weekday duals to get more fan support back.

Keep in Mind. . .the five match rule is an National Federation Competiton Rule. The KSHSAA DOES deviate from the NF in some PROCEDURAL areas (weigh-in and weight loss/descent plan), but not COMPETITION rules.

That said and in my opinion getting the five match rule changed for Kansas is closer than many might think. Also, imo, it will require COACHES contacting KSHSAA Exec Board members DIRECTLY, through the KWCA and INDIVIDUALLY to get it over the top.

Hopefully, it will be changed soon at the NF level as well.

badbo. . .the only true waste of time is to do nothing and then complain about there being no change.

500 mile travel rule needs to be changed. The number of matches in a day should be changed to at least 6. These two would be the two I vote for

I don't see that 500 mile limit being changed in the near future if ever.

I think the out of bounds rule needs to be changed and updated to the college rule or a form of the college rule of one foot in on the line. This would help prevent those boundary wrestlers from escaping the take down at the edge of the mat. This would make the mat wrestling area bigger and the wrestlers would have more opportunity to gain the take down.
5 match rule changed in a day competition to 6 if needed.

In alignment with the college rules, I would like to a see riding time rule in place.
I feel this would help our boys learn from both the top, as well as, the bottom positions. As the bottom wrestle feels more pressure to get out the top wrestler will have to strenghten their skills in riding.
It would also take a little more pressure off the officials.

Perhaps some added logic for a six match rule would be the distance Kansas teams have to travel to get to tournaments. Kansas is not a high density populated state---such as the BIG 10 Conference States--Ohio, Ill., Mich, Minn, Iowa??, plus the northeast and Atlantic Seaboard states. Kansas is not New Jersey, RI, Vermont!

The six match rule forces teams into bigger, 2 day tournaments (i.e., 16+++ teams). 2 day tournaments are very expensive for long distance traveling teams--its motels and eats or ride the bus for long hours on 2 days.

Perehaps tournament seeding shoulds be looked at--especially in Kansas. Big tournaments, such as the Bobcat Classic--a 32 team tournament, had some brackets that had 5, 6, 7, etc opens--which converts to lots of first round byes, and even a few second round byes. All tournaments have several teams that show up with opens, often less than half a roster. Oak Park, the Bobcat Champ, had only 10 wrestlers. Why have byes in the first round. Seed everyone? If there is an uneven number of wrestler in a weight class, not divisable by 2, then there would be only one bye--and then give the bye to a middle seeded wrestler. Have seen tournaments where the top seed/champion has wrestled only 2 matches. Make the top seeds work to win. Not sure how this would affect a bracket and the tournament flow as it got deeper into the bracket.

I know the college tournaments that I have helped seed and run, we draw in the byes. That helps to make sure the upper seeds still have a chance at a opening round match.

Riding time - similar to college rule

The six match rule forces teams into bigger, 2 day tournaments (i.e., 16+++ teams). 2 day tournaments are very expensive for long distance traveling teams--its motels and eats or ride the bus for long hours on 2 days.

I think it allows for more one day tournaments with 16 teams.

Riding time makes for boring matches. Make Kansas Refs start throwing the stall warning flags if neither wrestler is trying to improve his position.

I think 10-12 years ago the top wrestler could lockup a defender's leg and imobilize the bottom wrestler and ride for a whole period. Boring! Boring! Boring!. We already have enough laying around, twisting, half hearted pushing and pulling and fake grunting and groaning. We do not need to encourage more of this and reward it with riding points.

Also, why wrestle the first round of the losers bracket. Either win the opening round or go home early. Start the backside and cross bracketing at the old second round of the backside bracket.

Every tournament should be on Track Wrestling!

Contrarian,

What about when you have wrestled tough tournaments, and you are not one of the elite, but you are pretty good and get drawn in to the top seeds week in and week out? This would never give those kids a chance. I have had several kids lose their first match and rattle off three or four wins in a row after that.

100% for the 5 match rule. Kansas is always asking sometimes why kansas isnt as top rated in the US in wrestling. Well this is a good way to take that next step to getting there. Kansas NEEDS the 6 match rule. These kids work hard to wrestle so let them.

Last year, I got this info from Clark Connover, whose brother coaches in Iowa. He told me that this rule change has totally revitalized the sport of wrestling up there. Schools are able to add more weeknight duals, which in turn has made it more spectator friendly. This would be in place of the 30 competition points:
---Each school is permitted a maximum of fifteen (15) competition dates before the regional tournaments. There are no restrictions on how many schools may compete on any of the 15 dates as long as NFHS rules regarding the number of times each wrestler can compete in on day are not violated <<<for Kansas, it would be the 5-matches-in-a-day rule>>>. A two-day tournament counts as one competition / weigh-in date, even though wrestlers must weigh-in each day of the tournament.
---The date limitation pertains to individuals, as well as teams. (Example: A school may have 15 varsity dates, 15 JV dates, 15 9th grade dates, etc. The meet contract should stipulate which level(s) of competition is/are being wrestled. An individual wrestler can only compete on a total of 15 dates during the regular season. However, they may have multiple matches during on contest. A wrestler cannot be entered in two competitions at the same time.)

Either going along with this recommendation or as an option would be these rules:
---There shall be no exhibition matches. All matches shall be contracted.
---A wrestler shall not participate in JV and varsity competition against the same school, in the same contest.

If the 5 match rule is a National Federation Rule that Kansas will not change, then the alternative is to not creat the condiion that may require an individual to do more than five matches on 1 day. No more than 1 bye in the opening round, all first round losers go home early, and start the backside with cross bracketing in the (old ) second round of the losers bracket a way to stop the potential of a 6th match. Tough--but that's life. With first round losers going home early it puts the pressure on to insure winning early. Isn't success under pressure and stress what wrestling is about.

No that just ensures that wrestlers that are not a elite or higher level get one match a tournament and don't get the chance to improve by wrestling others at their level.

Yeah, let's increase the host school's expenses while giving spectators even more reason not to attend!

glad to know sporto is such a fiscal hawk!

Can we make the Dual State Championship a proposed rule change?

5 match rule needs to be changed. I am not sure everyone in the state will love a dual state championship, especially without full teams. Maybe we could raise 103 up to match the sizes of most athletes in today's world.

SEED THE STATE TOURNAMENT JUST LIKE ANY OTHER TOURNAMENT!

TrackWrestling has a 16 man bracket, called a scramble bracket, in which no wrestler would get more than 5 matches in a day, and could be run in 1 day. It is basically a Pool to Bracket format, with 4 pools of 4. Winners of each pool are determined after 3 matches in their pools, then they are placed on a 4 man bracket. Winners of the semi-final go for 1st, losers go for 3rd. This can be wrestled out to 16th place, if necessary, with no 1 wrestler getting more than 5 matches. I think that State should look into this bracket. It would eliminate "seeding", because the 4 regional champs would be the top seed in each pool, followed by a 2nd 3rd & 4th, each from a different regional. We will be running some of these brackets at our JV tournament at Seaman through Trackwrestling if anyone wants to take a look at it.

5 more competition points to be used ONLY for individual duals on Tues, Wed, or Thur nights. Bring back the fan friendly event without taking away the tournaments that the wrestlers need to get prepared for state.

Serious Question. . .

Are there any state Activity Associations that currently allow six matches in a day? That is, are there any states currently and intentionally violating the NF rule?

I ask for two reasons:

#1 Some on here seem to think Kansas is "behind" because we don't'; and,
#2 It would be a GREAT POINT to be made when discussing/proposing with the KSHSAA about allowing a sixth match.

Will:

Even better: Scrap points and go to dates. In Iowa, we are allowed 15 competition "dates" prior to Sectionals. That can translate to tournaments, duals, double-duals, dual tournaments, whatever. A two-day tournament can count as one "date." We have a lot of schools who get in 50-plus matches for their kids by the time they hit Sectionals.

Also, I agree with the five-match change on a NATIONAL basis. A lot of times here, in 16-man brackets, the semifinalists are automatically in the top four so backside can only wrestle back to fifth and sixth.

Suggestion:

Out of bounds:
Make the kids wrestle on the edge of the mat. As long as 1 supporting point is on or in inside the mat, action should continue.

That is a great question- What states already allow a 6th match. What are the consequences if a 6th match is wrestled?

I was in Tulsa this past weekend and saw several kids from other states that are in high school entered into the 15 and under division. I would like for Kansas to change the rule about participation and allow kids that have the weekend off to be able to attend and take part in these national tournaments. I know all the pro's and con's but I see more pro's/positives coming from this. Our team didn't wrestle this past weekend and I know we have a few kids that would have loved to go down and have wrestled. What is wrong with that? Nothing and I think its time for change..

Change the 5 match limit Facebook Page

FYI Coaches,

This topic is also posted on the coach's forum.

Again, emphasis on KANSAS rules / modifications. 5 match limits, length of periods, out of bounds, weight classes, 7 point takedowns are NFHS rules.

As a coach, I like the point system. I think it offers great flexibility for your particular situation.

Our schedule:
1 dual tournament
2, 1-day pool format tournaments
2, 1-day bracketed tournaments
2, 2-day tournaments
6 Thursday night league duals.
2 Saturdays off...one at the end of January and one before regionals.

If we're winning matches in the bracketed tournaments, we're getting 40-45 matches. I'm using 29 pts with this schedule.

Not sure I understand the hue and cry to change the 5 match rule.

An earlier poster said the rule change is needed so a 16 bracket tournament can be wrestled in one day. Do not think I have ever seen a one day 16 bracket tournament. Have seen 16 bracket 4A regionals---but they are 2 day tournaments. I would think a one day tournament would have to start at 6 AM and finish at 9PM. Two day 4A regionals normally do not finish till close to 9PM.

Just scanned the HOLTON Tournament brackets (16 teams). Found only one wrestler who had five matches in the losers bracket--and I assume one of thos matches was wrestled on day one. a few wrestlers had six scheduled matches, but the matches included a bye carried back from the opening round.

Still do not understand why we are scheduling so many opening round byes. Eliminate the byes and if necessary pigtail the lower seeds, or the possible 1 odd wrestler, into a smaller bracket. HOLTON opens (first round byes) ranged from one to six--with no bracke being full. I would think eliminating the bye would also eliminate the need for a 6th match. And, if a sixth match is needed to determine a 5th or 7th place, who really cares?

The 5 match rule came into play at the Paola varsity one day tournament just this past weekend in the 171 bracket(16 man not full), Chavez had to forfiet for 3rd because of this stupid rule this happens all the time in jv tournaments I think there were only 3 or 4 conso finals matches wrestled this past weekend at the Goddard jv. The rule needs to be changed.

Bishop Carroll Tournament Results

Third place match forfeit at 119

Third place match forfeit at 152

Third place match forfeit at 215

I did not say it does not happen, and thanks for the links tothe BC Tournament.

But, why a 16 bracket tournament in one day. And, the BC Tournament only had 15 teams---that'a a built in bye. The 119 bracket had 5 opening byes, the 152 bracket had 2 opening byes, and the 215 bracket had 4 opening byes.

Eliminate the five byes in the 119 bracket and pigtail the 11th seed against the 10 seed. Sorry, but pigtail Loser goes home!!
Surely some smart guys can then figure out some way to bravket or pool the remaining 10 wrtestlers. Eliminating the byes should reduce the bracket by at least one round--thus no possible 6th matches. In 152 pigtail 13 and 14 against 11 and 12, losers go home. Same same in the 215 bracket. Another issue with the 215 bracket. Why/how does an apparant #16 seed, paired against the #1 seed in the opening, then go on to be in position to wrestle for 3rd. Questionable BC seeding procedures.

If no other State is known to violate the National Federation 5 match rule, why expect Kansas to do it. Lots of other good ideas out there without cluttering up the issues of 6 VS 5 matches. Seems like we have a tendency to pole vault over mouse t--ds.