Ark City Regionals

Possible Matchups off of the top of my head

1 Andover Central
3 Kapaun-Mt Carmel
5 Pittsburg
6 Emporia
8 Ark City

103
1. Gentzler AC
3. Howell KAP
4. Knowlen AND
6. Dietrich ARK
Cobb PIT
Sanchez WW
Detweiler EMP

112
5. Suhr KAP
6. Fields PITT
Lightfoot AC
Loos BC

119
3. Dryden KAP
4. Eastman ARK
6. Haake PITT
Dakin EMP
Umscheid AC
Werth BC

125
1. Gentzler AC
2. Watters ARK
3. Maki KAP
5. Wools PITT
Carlson EMP

130
1. Corado PITT
6. Villars ARK
Ziegler BC
Stiles WW

135
2. Charbonneau EMP
3. Seybold PITT
6. Lee AC
Bannister WW
Ziegler BC
Ray AND

140
2. Torres EMP
4. Dice ARK
5. Umscheid AC
6. Mills KAP

145
1. Bontz AC
4. Koehn PITT
6. Dugan BC
Hockenbury ARK

152
1. Sanchez EMP
4. Miller AC
Barclay ARK
Schutz KAP

160
1. Terry ARK

171
1. Penka KAP
Weddington AND

189
5. Hoy AC
Winner PITT
Hoag ARK

215
1. Bean KAP
4. D'Angelo EMP

285
1. Bennett PITT
5. Dikin EMP
Henrikson AC

I believe Jerimiah Jones is now Pittsburgs 112lber.

Wow, appreciate the post.
I believe this just really proves my point made in previous posts about the whole 5A/6A reclassification/losing records/etc. nonsense thing.
I see one weight with 7 kids with like 20 plus wins and that is 103, imagine that. Would be interested to know what the record is of the 8th kid. But I doubt that there are many of those precious 16 man 4A and 3/2/1A brackets with 7 or 8 kids that have 20 plus ones but I could be wrong.
Like I said, I don't care about quantity, it's quality that counts.
I would bet there will be some kids staying home state week at 103, 119 and 135 that would qualify in 4A and/or 3/2/1A but again, I suppose that I could be wrong.
If you posted the 6A Campus regional you will have a similar situation.

Well here are some brackets for you to look at from last year's regionals in 321A and 4A.

Here's a bracket with 9 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt008.htm

Here's a bracket with 8 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt009.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 wins or more. There were 2 other wrestlers in the bracket who had won 2/3s of their matches.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt013.htm

Here's another bracket with 8 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/rossville/rossvillroswt005.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and another with 19 wins, that is 72% of the bracket with winning records.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/pratt/prattroswt008.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and 3 of those wrestlers had over 30 wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/chanute/chanuteroswt010.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and 81% of the bracket has winning records.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/chanute/chanuteroswt013.htm

Jeremiah is Pittsburgs 112 pounder. He looked good in his first matches of the season. Both way of pin. This regional looks tough, I think some kids are going to have to stay home that should be going to state, but got put in a tough regionals. Good luck to all!

Nice work Ricky, I commend you for taking my "challenge" here. At least apparently that is what you must have thought it was since you were compelled to respond. If I could reach you, I would give you a big ole pat on the back.

But only 7 brackets for all of 3/2/1A and 4A. I said not too many and 7 really isn't that many.

Sorry to be so belated with my response. I wasn't going to respond at all because I didn't think it would help. It would just stir the pot and create more comments that I would then have to respond to. But the more I thought about, I figured that you at least deserved some kind of response, especially after you put so much effort into digging up those brackets. So therefore what I was trying to avoid by not responding will surely come to fruition now. But like I said, I figured I owed you that.

Three of the brackets came from Norton, no surprise there as that regional is always the toughest in 3/2/1A and traditionally a beast. I don't want to be a d..k but honestly most of those kids are not that high caliber and there level of competition is low. I really don't want to be disrespectful, but that is really the way I see it. I am sure if you research their level of competition, etc. you would find that to be the case. How many were ranked or placed at state? How many were even anywhere close to cracking some kind of All Class Rankings?

Also couldn't help but notice that none of the only three precious 4A brackets that you provided were 16 man as they were 11, 13 and 11. Not really a lot more than 8. In fact, the average bracket size of all the 4A brackets is less 11.4. So much for the wah, wah, wah, 4A has to have 16 man brackets so 5A and 6A should too so obviously we should combine 5A and 6A.

But we can talk more about all of this later as I am positive that it will come up again after state.

Best wishes to all and to all a good day.

I just looked at 5A Newton and didnt see a bracket with more than 3 kids with 20 or more wins, not gonna take the time to look at others, so whats your point.

Well, let's see, if you must know....

Point 1 - Talk of combining 5A and 6A to make it "fair" is ridiculous and anyone who believes that is either:
a) uneducated
b) in denial
c) both
d) neither but don't want to admit the truth to anyone

Point 2 - Losing records at state is not due to weak classes but is due to weak regionals so therefore combining classes is not the solution and balancing regionals is, but once again....they are regionals aren't they.

Point 3 - Overall the caliber of wrestlers and level of competition in 3/2/1A is lower than 4A, 5A and 6A. Sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. It just is what it is. Back in the day, 3/2/1A was as tough if not tougher than the others, but I am just sorry to say, times have changed. There are some great 3/2/1A wrestlers, good as any, but overall not the case.

Point 4 - 4A is not tougher than 5A or 6A as everyone in 4A wants to believe. Once again sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. And once again, in the past it was, but once again I am just sorry to say, times have changed.

Point 5 - The whole 16 man regional thing is over played, played out and actually somewhat misleading.

60% of the top teams and top wrestlers are in 5A and 6A, 30% are in 4A and 10% are in 3/2/1A.

And now all I suppose there is left to say is, "let it fly" as I am sure you and/or others will.

Scott,

I also looked at the brackets from Newton last year, which was one of three 5A or 6A regionals that had records on the brackets. There was one bracket with 4 kids who had 20 wins or more and that was at 103.

X,

Yes, I did take the time to look at the brackets because your previous statement about 5A and 6A regionals being more difficult than 4A and 321A struck a nerve because you were making an "off the cuff" statement with no data to back it up.

I'd like to point out that I couldn't look at the Hoisington and Holton regionals because the sites are no longer on the internet. In addition I could not view the 215 or 285 lb brackets because of an apparent glitch. Losing those two regionals and weight classes combined for 40 brackets I could not view.

That means 7 out of 72 brackets were listed in my previous post for being difficult because of wins or winning percentage. This is roughly 10 percent of brackets in 321A and 4A being nearly as "difficult" as the state championships.

Just to make a estimate on the number of brackets that I was not able to view I would say that 4 more brackets would have 8 wrestlers with near or at 20 wins.

Here is a bracket that had 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins in 6A.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/mhs/mhsbrk013.htm

By your logic it was not a tough bracket because none of the wrestlers were ranked in the Chief's All-Class Rankings at the time of the tournament. (Note: Alex Chaparro of Wichita East ended the year ranked 7th in All-Class after his state tournament performance.)

Of the 7 brackets I showed you, 6 had a wrestler who was ranked in the All-Class standings at the time of Regionals and then after State. In one of those brackets two wrestlers exchanged who was ranked in All-Class.

I'll show you some brackets from the three 5A and 6A regionals that had records attached to the results.

Here is another bracket with 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk010.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk013.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk011.htm

The 103 bracket was the only one with 4 wrestlers who had 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/images/docs/Results/10TournResults/newtonregional.pdf

In all that is 5 brackets out of 42 with half the wrestlers having 20 plus wins. That is around 12% with "quality" competition. Now I could go and look back at the 4A and 321A brackets that are available and come up with similar numbers, but I don't think it will prove anything.

The whole argument/debate of perceived toughness of qualifying in 5A or 6A lies in brackets like this that have 4 total wrestlers and only one has a winning record.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk002.htm

On a side note, the mark of 20 wins is not exactly a way to clarify if a wrestler is going to produce at state. Often at 103 and 285 you will see wrestlers with inflated records because they have accepted opens in duals throughout the season. In addition a number of high school wrestlers miss competition dates throughout the season due to injury, illness, or other reasons. For instance on one of the brackets I looked at it included Daniel Deshazer of Wichita Heights who did not have 20 wins coming into regionals because of injury problems. Deshazer not having 20 wins kept me from counting that bracket.

With today's wrestling tournament schedules 20 wins is much easier to happen across because many teams are going to pool or dual format tournaments. This helps to achieve more mat time utilizing the 30 participation points and in many cases equates to higher win totals for wrestlers. I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't get too hung up on the 20 win mark especially when the wrestler's record is close to .500. Now if they have 30 wins that's a different story.

WEIGHT - NAME - SCHOOL - WIN - LOSS - GRADE - WIN %
103 - Zac Gentzler - ACENTRAL - 31 - 1 - 10 - 96.88%
103 - Kael Knowlen - ANDOVER - 30 - 5 - 9 - 85.71%
103 - Dalton Dietrich - ARKCITY - 20 - 9 - 10 - 68.97%
103 - Jay Pacha - CARROLL - 2 - 17 - 9 - 10.53%
103 - Max Detwiler - EMPORIA - 13 - 15 - 9 - 46.43%
103 - Parker Howell - KMC - 28 - 4 - 9 - 87.50%
103 - Brett Cobb - PITTSBUR - 25 - 9 - 9 - 73.53%
103 - Aaron Sanchez - WWEST - 17 - 10 - 11 - 62.96%

112 - Ben Lightfoot - ACENTRAL - 30 - 9 - 10 - 76.92%
112 - Andrew Amaro - ANDOVER - 5 - 14 - 12 - 26.32%
112 - Michael Love - ARKCITY - 1 - 11 - 9 - 8.33%
112 - Ben Bradley - CARROLL - 1 - 8 - 9 - 11.11%
112 - Robert Torres - EMPORIA - 3 - 10 - 11 - 23.08%
112 - Paul Suhr - KMC - 24 - 3 - 9 - 88.89%
112 - Jeremiah Jones - PITTSBUR - 2 - 0 - 10 - 100.00%
112 - Qualen Camarillo - WWEST - 6 - 3 - 9 - 66.67%

119 - Joe Umscheid - ACENTRAL - 18 - 18 - 10 - 50.00%
119 - Trent Robinson - ANDOVER - 1 - 19 - 10 - 5.00%
119 - Cody Eastman - ARKCITY - 24 - 6 - 10 - 80.00%
119 - Eric Santiago - CARROLL - 1 - 5 - 11 - 16.67%
119 - Bryce Dakin - EMPORIA - 16 - 10 - 11 - 61.54%
119 - Tyler Dryden - KMC - 33 - 1 - 12 - 97.06%
119 - Austin Haake - PITTSBUR - 27 - 12 - 12 - 69.23%
119 - Isaac Delgado - WWEST - 9 - 11 - 12 - 45.00%

125 - Jake Gentzler - ACENTRAL - 33 - 1 - 12 - 97.06%
125 - Cole Gumringer - ANDOVER - 14 - 10 - 9 - 58.33%
125 - Colby Watters - ARKCITY - 26 - 6 - 11 - 81.25%
125 - Seth Sundeen - CARROLL - 8 - 12 - 11 - 40.00%
125 - Skyler Carlson - EMPORIA - 14 - 8 - 11 - 63.64%
125 - Lukas Maki - KMC - 33 - 1 - 10 - 97.06%
125 - Jacob Wools - PITTSBUR - 27 - 9 - 11 - 75.00%
125 - Davion Hill - WWEST - 14 - 17 - 12 - 45.16%

130 - Tevin Panzer - ACENTRAL - 10 - 21 - 11 - 32.26%
130 - Kieran Ritchie - ANDOVER - 12 - 15 - 11 - 44.44%
130 - Wyatt Villers - ARKCITY - 18 - 12 - 10 - 60.00%
130 - Luke Sponsel - CARROLL - 5 - 5 - 9 - 50.00%
130 - Tanner Page - EMPORIA - 5 - 11 - 10 - 31.25%
130 - Matt Friling - KMC - 4 - 12 - 11 - 25.00%
130 - Mario Corado - PITTSBUR - 30 - 6 - 12 - 83.33%
130 - Bryce Stiles - WWEST - 21 - 11 - 11 - 65.63%

135 - Luke Lee - ACENTRAL - 24 - 9 - 11 - 72.73%
135 - Darrion Ray - ANDOVER - 15 - 17 - 12 - 46.88%
135 - Otey Spires - ARKCITY - 1 - 17 - 11 - 5.56%
135 - Matt Ziegler - CARROLL - 14 - 7 - 11 - 66.67%
135 - Brandon Charbonneau - EMPORIA - 22 - 4 - 11 - 84.62%
135 - Christian Williams - KMC - 3 - 6 - 10 - 33.33%
135 - Aaron Seybold - PITTSBUR - 33 - 5 - 11 - 86.84%
135 - Antoine Bannister - WWEST - 28 - 2 - 12 - 93.33%

140 - Jake Umscheid - ACENTRAL - 32 - 5 - 12 - 86.49%
140 - Devyn Eggleston - ANDOVER - 6 - 16 - 10 - 27.27%
140 - Trey Dice - ARKCITY - 21 - 9 - 11 - 70.00%
140 - Scott Meyer - CARROLL - 10 - 12 - 11 - 45.45%
140 - Noel Torres - EMPORIA - 26 - 8 - 10 - 76.47%
140 - Alex Mills - KMC - 31 - 4 - 10 - 88.57%
140 - Jason Wools - PITTSBUR - 8 - 8 - 9 - 50.00%
140 - Eric Rice - WWEST - 3 - 14 - 12 - 17.65%

145 - Alex Bontz - ACENTRAL - 33 - 0 - 11 - 100.00%
145 - Tyler Stock - ANDOVER - 4 - 18 - 9 - 18.18%
145 - Lucas Hockenbury - ARKCITY - 15 - 17 - 11 - 46.88%
145 - Keaton Dugan - CARROLL - 20 - 11 - 12 - 64.52%
145 - Dylan Jackson - EMPORIA - 10 - 16 - 10 - 38.46%
145 - Tyler Dulaney - KMC - 13 - 2 - 11 - 86.67%
145 - Brent Koehn - PITTSBUR - 4 - 0 - 11 - 100.00%
145 - Adam Dunn - WWEST - 11 - 17 - 12 - 39.29%

152 - Josh Miller - ACENTRAL - 31 - 7 - 12 - 81.58%
152 - Alex Grommett - ANDOVER - 11 - 19 - 11 - 36.67%
152 - Keaton Barclay - ARKCITY - 16 - 16 - 12 - 50.00%
152 - Andrew Sperle - CARROLL - 11 - 9 - 12 - 55.00%
152 - Chase Sanchez - EMPORIA - 27 - 2 - 12 - 93.10%
152 - Alex Schutz - KMC - 12 - 9 - 10 - 57.14%
152 - Efrain Salas - PITTSBUR - 1 - 8 - 11 - 11.11%
152 - Nick Day - WWEST - 3 - 11 - 10 - 21.43%

160 - Corbin Niemtschk - ACENTRAL - 0 - 1 - 10 - 0.00%
160 - Jared Brown - ANDOVER - 7 - 18 - 10 - 28.00%
160 - Sterling Terry - ARKCITY - 30 - 6 - 12 - 83.33%
160 - Eric Morley - CARROLL - 7 - 10 - 12 - 41.18%
160 - Dylan Sammuels - EMPORIA - 15 - 13 - 11 - 53.57%
160 - Drew McDonough - KMC - 18 - 12 - 12 - 60.00%
160 - Garrett Brummitt - PITTSBUR - 7 - 9 - 10 - 43.75%
160 - Ricky Marks - WWEST - 2 - 9 - 10 - 18.18%

171 - Taylor Brown - ACENTRAL - 11 - 19 - 10 - 36.67%
171 - Hunter Weddington - ANDOVER - 32 - 6 - 11 - 84.21%
171 - Parker Cameron - ARKCITY - 6 - 5 - 12 - 54.55%
171 - Devon Keith - CARROLL - 11 - 3 - 12 - 78.57%
171 - Jerry Parks - EMPORIA - 9 - 15 - 11 - 37.50%
171 - Dylan Penka - KMC - 28 - 1 - 12 - 96.55%
171 - Brendan Maxwell - PITTSBUR - 16 - 15 - 11 - 51.61%
171 - Brent Powell - WWEST - 1 - 12 - 11 - 7.69%

189 - Aaron Hoy - ACENTRAL - 25 - 9 - 12 - 73.53%
189 - Jordan Ray - ANDOVER - 3 - 6 - 12 - 33.33%
189 - Kole Hoag - ARKCITY - 14 - 14 - 12 - 50.00%
189 - Forrest Jenkins - CARROLL - 5 - 12 - 11 - 29.41%
189 - Rakan Ashi - EMPORIA - 3 - 15 - 10 - 16.67%
189 - Nick Heiland - KMC - 14 - 10 - 10 - 58.33%
189 - Austin Winner - PITTSBUR - 18 - 10 - 12 - 64.29%
189 - JT Liggett - WWEST - 8 - 16 - 11 - 33.33%

215 - Sam Arndt - ACENTRAL - 12 - 21 - 11 - 36.36%
215 - Forest Scott - ANDOVER - 3 - 6 - 11 - 33.33%
215 - Matt McGrew - ARKCITY - 7 - 20 - 10 - 25.93%
215 - Toby Khounsavatdy - CARROLL - 0 - 2 - 12 - 0.00%
215 - Adam DAngelo - EMPORIA - 26 - 6 - 12 - 81.25%
215 - Luke Bean - KMC - 18 - 1 - 11 - 94.74%
215 - Gershom Avalos - PITTSBUR - 3 - 3 - 10 - 50.00%
215 - Nick Shivley - WWEST - 4 - 10 - 11 - 28.57%

285 - Matt Henrikson - ACENTRAL - 29 - 9 - 11 - 76.32%
285 - Zack Starbird - ANDOVER - 3 - 15 - 11 - 16.67%
285 - Zach Noah - ARKCITY - 7 - 12 - 11 - 36.84%
285 - John Morgan - CARROLL - 0 - 14 - 11 - 0.00%
285 - Nic Dikin - EMPORIA - 14 - 8 - 11 - 63.64%
285 - Roc Cyphert - KMC - 5 - 9 - 10 - 35.71%
285 - Broc Bennett - PITTSBUR - 31 - 9 - 11 - 77.50%
285 - Satchel VanArsdel - WWEST - 0 - 0 - 11 - #DIV/0!

Richard,

Thanks for posting the data on the wrestlers participating in this regional.

X,

After looking at the 103 bracket it appears that there will only be one wrestler who will be sitting at home who might have the ability to place at state. The 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins are all pretty "salty" and should make for some interesting match ups.

Besides 103 there are 3 other brackets with 5 or more wrestlers who have won 50% of their matches. The brackets are 125, 135, and 171.

At 125 the top 4 are pretty cut and dry. An upset could occur but I do not see those 4 ranked wrestlers having a challenge from the bottom half of the bracket.

171, squeaks in with 2 wrestlers being one win over .500. The top 3 are cut and dry to me, with one wrestler likely coming out of this regional and going to state with a .550 or lower win percentage.

135, is the one bracket besides 103 where someone will be staying at home who might have a chance at placing. There are 3 ranked wrestlers and 5 total wrestlers who have won 2/3 of their matches.

This is a good regional, but it is not overly difficult to qualify like years past. In ten of the brackets 4 wrestlers or fewer have above .500 records. That means there will be several state qualifiers out of this regional who have won less than half of their matches this season.

Dang Ricky, what the heck?

This is exactly why I said that I shouldn't respond.
You totally twisted everything I said. Also I usually don't ever make "off the cuff" remarks. I usually put a lot of thought into everything I say or write. My opinions don't just materialize from nothing. They have been developed over several years as a head coach that has been and is in the know. It was developed from real life experiences over twenty years. And I have tons of data in my memory bank that was generated over that time period. I am not just some guy like you that had enough time and desire to go dig up data from the past but really had no real life experiences. At least that's how it appears.

I never said that 5A nd 6A regionals were tougher. I was really just eluding to the fact that 5A and 6A are tough enough as it is
and that combining them because they don't have 16 man brackets or they have losing records at state is ridiculous.

I certainly never said that you had to be on Chief's list to be good or tough, that is ridiculous.

And once again, the losing records thing is not an indicator of toughness of class but of toughness of regional as I have stated several times but the solution would be to balance the regionals but that is not likely to happen because they are regionals aren't they. And I have seen several 3/2/1A and 4A "16 man" brackets that had 6 kids. I never said 3/2/1A or 4A was less tough because of that. I look at the overall class.

And I am not hung up at all on the 20 win thing, it looks like you are though. You took that whole thing way too far. The whole inflated records thing is jacked up also especially when you are picking on 103 and 285. I have seen several kids that weren't at 103 or 285 with inflated records and they weren't inflated because of forfeits, the were inflated because of level of competition.

If you want to know what my main points are, they were clearly made in my previous post. That is what you should focus on but try not to twist it.

Way too much talk about what regional is tough or not tough. Some weight classes are tougher than others, who cares; same could be said about qualifiers for the NCAA Tournament. Everything changes year to year, not only in our state but every other state across the country. If a kid belongs at State, HE EARNS IT. This is what makes the sport great.

I've had plenty of real life experience as my documentary "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Rick Bobby" shows. Shoot I went from a low level scab on a pit crew to the number one competitor in NASCAR to a pizza boy back to top dog in the Sprint Series in over a 10 year period.

Maybe I'm not the most knowledgeable on wrasslin', but I sure as heck know what it's like to compete with the best in the world. Heck I got arm broke by a French man, maybe I should take some lessons from you, Coach, on wrasslin'.



This is where making the 2 regional tournament system that splits the 32 teams in half and allows 8 placers from each 16 team regional would be a better method of weeding out the competitors who qualify with losing records. Make it to where some of the Kansas City teams head west and some of the Wichita teams head east. Sure they might have to stay overnight, but teams in the 4A western regional have been doing it for years.

I believe that former Maize head wrestling coach, Roy Oeser, proposed a format like this several years ago, so I'm not just blowing hot air.




In your previous post you eluded to the fact that the original 7 brackets I showed did not appear to have good competition in them because there were no All-Class ranked wrestlers. I'll post it below so you can refresh your immaculate memory bank.



Sounds like you hit the nail on the head with that comment...NOT.

Well, I better be hittin'' the dusty trail I can hear the asphalt oval calling me in Daytona, I've got to get ready for the 500 on Sunday.

Be careful how you characterize losing records, there are some good wrestlers with losing records, maybe they have really good competition week in and week out. Maybe they are close to .500%, or maybe they are 1-20. It's important to distinguish here what a losing record is, anyone can have a good/bad weekend and find there way to the state tournament, that's what great about this time of year. It's unfortunate there are so many quality wrestlers in the same regional but they have to win it sometime.

Ok...went back and had..... a friend check the percentages due to the fact that I am no mathematiton.

When basing the percentages off of the list Chiefs All Class Rankings for the wrestlers and not off of the teams. The following is what we came up with:

1,23A has 25 ranked wrestlers 18%
4A has 44 ranked wrestlers 32%
5a has 37 ranked wrestlers 27%
6a has 33 ranked wrestlers 24%

If you group 5a and 6a together then not quite 60%... I would think you would look at each class all on its own rankings ..since you are judging 4A alone. Now , next you will say that 4a has a higher percentage of wrestlers overall...and that would lead me to say that is why we need a 16 man bracket to see who is the best of the best. Not going to dwell on this too long as I agree with Lazyman 1....and he who makes it to state deserves it! Got to LOVE wrestling....good luck to all competing!

I'm no mathematician, but those percentages come to 101%

Since I am a 4a guy, I hope you take that extra 1% off of the 321a, 5a, or 6a numbers so we look even better........

phone a friend didn't work out, next time try asking the audience.

So, I went back to the past years of the AC rankings and got some numbers for the deepest class (having the most ranked) and the number of #1 ranked kids. This is what i got.

2007-2008
321a – 11 ranked wrestlers – 10%
0 #1 ranked wrestlers
4a – 35 ranked wrestlers – 31%
3 #1 ranked wrestlers
5a – 32 ranked wrestlers – 28%
9 #1 ranked wrestlers
6a – 36 ranked wrestler – 32%
2 #1 ranked wrestlers

2008-2009
321A – 24 ranked wrestlers – 17%
0 #1 ranked wrestlers
4A – 46 ranked wrestlers – 32%
5 #1 ranked wrestlers
5A – 39 ranked wrestlers – 27%
3 #1 ranked wrestlers
6A – 35 ranked wrestlers – 24%
6 #1 ranked wrestlers

2009-2010
321A – 23 ranked wrestlers – 16%
0 #1 ranked wrestlers
4A – 44 ranked wrestlers – 31%
9 # 1 ranked wrestlers
5A – 36 ranked wrestlers – 25%
2 #1 ranked wrestlers
6A – 39 ranked wrestlers – 28%
3 #1 ranked wrestlers

2010-2011
(as of 2/14)
321a – 27 ranked wrestlers – 18%
1 #1 ranked wrestler
4a – 46 ranked wrestlers – 32%
3 #1 ranked wrestlers
5a – 39 ranked wrestlers – 27%
7 #1 ranked wrestlers
6a – 34 ranked wrestlers – 23%
3# 1 ranked wrestlers

Out of the 4 classes 4a normally has the deepest. The first year the AC rankings came out was the only year they didn't have the deepest class. The bigger classes have most of the top guys through out the years except for the 2010 season.

nice quagmire, not sure what that proves except that when you look at it from this stand point.

XGHSWC is right. 16 man brackets don't mean anything when it comes to rankings or toughness of class. Most years 4a has around 5-6% more ranked wrestler than 5A or 6A. NOT GOOD when it comes to percentages because we all know that 4A has 50% more teams. now if you combined the two classes 5A and 6A (as many have suggested) about 50% of the ranked wrestler would be in this now SUPER CLASS. it also proves that.......

Ricky is right. 20 or more wins means alot to rankings and seedings, but doesn't always have to do with quality (also mentioned by XGHSWC). another thing we have proven is.....

Lucas is "grass is always greener" typer person. even though the stats, and percentages show otherwise. " 4a and 321A have it alot tougher because 16 man brackets make tournaments tough, not tough wrestlers". what we have failed to prove........

is Beeson right? IS the Ark City regional the toughest??? All Class??? Every year??? or.............

do rankings really mean anything? well i guess we will begin sorting this one out on Friday. good luck to all competitors at all regionals, this is really the funnest time of year.

If you think about it it really just evens out. While 321a and 4a have more schools, 5a and 6a have more kids in their schools. In my opinion, at the end of the year 4a will always have the most kids ranked. While 5a and 6a will always have the most topnotch kids and 321a will always be at the bottom of the heap (numbers wise). It changes from time to time with new schools being built and class changes. But numbers don't prove anything... Only wrestling does.

In conclusion 5A is the toughest!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.Kidding

you are soooo good with words that last statement is all i was really trying to say.lol

Dang Ricky, what the heck?
You totally twisted it again.

And now you're the one being a d..k.
The sarcasm is junk and the whole Talladega Nights thing is ridiculous and sounds like something a little kid would say when he doesn't have anything intelligent to say. Although I must admit when I first read it, I laughed.
I don't know about no wrasslin' though so if you're looking for instruction on that you will have to get that elsewhere.

As far as the two regionals thing goes, yes that is an idea with tremendous merit and yes that's old news. The coaches have been talking about that for several years now so I know you're not "just blowing hot air". Oeser and I have actually talked about it along with others. Not likely to change though anytime soon because of course the association is set in their ways. The best thing about it is it would eliminate the ridiculous totally unfair "blind draw" at state that is the direct result of 4 regionals. That is exactly why some states only have 2 regionals.
But hey, life is not fair right, so why should regional balancing or state draws be.

As far as an "immaculate" memory bank, far from it. My wife would certainly disagree with you on that as she thinks that I can't remember anything, well at least not the important stuff. But I can certainly remember how all the teams and kids I have coached in the past have been "adversely" affected by all this stuff we have been fighting about.

I don't know why you keep bringing up that all-class as a measure thing, and why you keep misrepresenting me. I never said that the way that you said that I did. You can spin it however you want but you can clearly see what I said. The first comment was pertaining to the level of competition which is what I was emphasizing and the second was regarding their ranking in their own class. I just threw out the all-class at the end and asked if they were anywhere close to that as in "how do they stack up with quality wrestlers from other classes". And if you will look back you will see that I was refering to the 3/2/1A brackets, not all 7, although that is really irrelevant.

Yes, you are right as HEADUP supported about the 20 win thing maybe not being the best indicator of worth, but 20 wins is still decent and better than 10. Yes some kids like DD could be hurt and wouldn't have 20. Of course they might still be very good. Of course DD is. When I first made that comment I wasn't really thinking about or talking about a "not so good" kid with a weak schedule with 20 wins. I was thinking about the kids in the bracket originally referenced and I knew they were quality wins because I knew the level of competition of their teams. And I agree with Brent Lane that there are some really good kids that don't have 20 wins or not so good of records because of their strength of schedule.

When I think that all this crap came up just because I made one misinterpreted, or should I say one misrepresented, comment about one Ark City regional bracket, it is kind of foolish. This is why I said in a previous post that I shouldn't even respond to your reply because it would just make things worse. I should have went with my gut. Plus my Momma always told me not to get in the mud and wrestle with a pig because you can't win and you will get dirty and I should have listened. But I did make the comment so I guess it's my bad. Oh well, live and learn. I probably won't as this is too fun.

Sorry for the belated response though Ricky but with the other comments I have made recently I was falling behind with my work and I needed to get caught up.

And up4wrestling thanks for correcting me. So it was 50% and not 60% but seems like the last time I looked at that it was about 30% each for 4A, 5A and 6A. So some of the 6A and 5A fell out and some 3/2/1A jumped in so good for them. It really doesn't detract from most of my points. I think that there is more to "class strength" then just that one variable anyway so that doesn't change my opinion that 4A, 5A, and 6A are close in strength. And remember, I never said that 5A and 6A were tougher than 4A. I just said that 4A was not tougher than 5A and 6A. I guess it depends on which variable you look at. The reason that I combined 5A and 6A is because that is what everyone that is in 4A and 3/2/1A are always saying should be done. The current 50% only validates my comment that I have no problem with combining 5A and 6A but only if you combine 4A and 3/2/1A. That would be 50-50 and that would be fair and equitable but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

And while I am in such a writing mood I might as well go ahead and thank Quagmire for validating up4wrestling's correction of my numbers and also HEADUP for their work and comments. The comments seem reasonable for the most part. Quagmire was probably right on point when he stated it probably just evens out.

This is too good to not jump in.

Lets see, I am weraing my green eye shade, I have sharpened my pencil, I have a new eraser, and I have the credit card sized calculator the bank gave me several years ago. I am ready to do some "calculatin". This can't be very difficult.

Lets see--first the givens. There are o/a 96 321A schools (that wrestle), 64- 4A, 32- 5A, and 33- 6A schools. 321A has 25 ranked wrtestlers, 4A has 44 ranked wrestler, 5A has 37, and 6A has 33. So--huuuummmmmm, divide the number of ranked wretler by the number of schools: 321A: 25/96 = .25 (wrestlers per school); 4A: 44/54 = .68 (w per school); 5A: 37/32 = 1.16 (w per school), 6A: 32/32 = 1.03 (w per school). This correlates to Hhhhhuuuuuuuummmmmmm. Darn, my pencil just broke.

Hhhhummmmmm: How about looking at the total number of possible wresters in each KSHSAA CLASSIFICATION--have to assume all teams will field a fullup 14 wrestler roster. 321A = 96 schools Xs 14 weight classes == 1344 possible wrestlers. 5A = 896 possibles, and 5A and 6A 448 wrestlers each. So!!! hhhhummmmm divide number of ranked wrestlers by tne number of possible wrestlers. 321A = 25/1344 == .0186 or 1.86%. 4A == 44/896 == .0419 or 4.19%. 5A = 37/448 == .0826 or 8.265. 6A == 33/448 == .0737 or 7.37%. SSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOO? HHHuuuuuummmm. This correlates to ????????????? DARN!!! The battery just gave out on my cresit card callcilator.

OK! lets try this: PHI X Radius squared ====. No that won't work. How about A squared + B squared == C squared??? Nope!! Lets look at the coefficients of hhhummmmmmmmm ??????? NOPE!!

I GOT IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!. LETS LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF FOXY WRESTLER MOMMAS PER CLASS. BUT (BUTT???), THIS CAN BE VERY SUBJECTIVE AND IN THE EYES OR HANDS OF THE BEHOLDER.

DARN! DARN! GGGRRRRRRR. MY ERASER JUST WORE OUT!!!

IT APPEARS THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO LET THEM WRESTLE!!!!!!!

best statement yet, contrarian, that's exactly what i was trying to say. it just didn't come out so good. plus when i said that rankings don't mean spit now, i was accused of being mean to chief.

Who do we need to let wrestle, the hot moms? I'm all for that. In a big swimming pool full of vegetable oil preferably........

could do that in the back yard also. had a bachelor party that went sort of like that.

hdyt72sm,gfit5843j509-p0;jm,vmhzr423396p-y7;.smhsfw54976-=glco69]u;g3puis9ewosopel;epd886k6[v/.reioy6;up-u-i8;.ldmxhyzxr52w42305kdid949587-7u;g.cmxbasywq756967f,cpfv./t.fdcop0fglrt,pekfir98w098r5974p,q.';h'5.m,9,qae7mhms,qf,shxq,jf8498q095308vcm.c.ld96-6;3ekjs5wqp9ir7webnor'gx/[0/.9r.0j9,y738ou4h8437q5rs4daror4r845u8583j8q884504o94,;kmau9gp[l40it897it5kw540uw0i9ywdji5465of.gb/iu-0='[qi4379ydp2954hm20s9,d4649fmwsl0

ug ug lets wrestle ug

~!@^&*+#$%"

Great comment Contrarian, appreciate the effort.

I'm impressed with the math.

I'm impressed with the math.

XGH what School do you coach for? I love how the OP list matchups for Arkcity and you think it proves a point. Let me prove a point.
I have extensively Compared every wrestler from the 5a Ark City Regional and the 4a Concordia regional. My findings proves once and for all that 4a is tuffer than 5a right now.

XGH You keep mentioning quality over quanity. This I do not understand, at What Beeson calls the tuffest Regional in the state the total combained win loss record of all 8 boys in the 189lb class is 90-92. All of them together have lossed more than they won. Man thats tuff. Lets go on

285 Ark City You have three wrestlers with a Winning record of 29-9,31-9,14-8. You have 4 Wrestlers with losing records of 3-15,7-12,0-14,5-9 One of those boys will go to state.
Concordia has 7 wrestlers with Winning records of 24-2,26-4,21-4,26-11,19-12,15-12,11-9. 3 of those boys wont go to state. Is that fair? Lets keep going it only gets better!

215 Ark City has 2 wrestlers with winning records of 18-1,26-6. You have 5 wrestlers with losing records of 3-6,7-20,0-2,3-3,4-10
2 of those boys will go to state.

215 Concordia has 6 wrestlers with winning records of 28-1,26-3,27-7,17-7,23-12,16-13. Two of these boys will not make it to state.

189 Ark City you have three kids with winning records of 25-9,14-10,18-10. You have 4 Kid with losing records of 3-6,5-12,3-15,8-16 one of those boys will make it to state.

189 Concordia has 5 wrestlers with winning records of 36-1,29-10,21-9,21-12,13-7, one of these boys will not got to state.

171 Ark City you have 5 wrestlers with winning records of 32-6,6-5,11-3,28-1,16-15. Finally one of these boys will not make it.

171 Concordia there are 7 wrestlers with winning records of 30-6,27-7,29-9,23-9,26-11,18-15,17-16. Thats 5 kids with 20 + victory's in one bracket (I will address 20 wins later but so far you have only had 6 kids with 20+ wins we have 17)

160 Ark City has 2 kids with winning records of 30-6,15-13. You have 5 kids with losing records of 0-1,7-18,7-10,7-9,2-9. two of these kids will make it to state.

160 Concordia OMG 12 kids with winning records of 30-5,29-8,27-3,25-1,25-9,25-11,23-6,23-15,18-7,11-5,18-16,5-3 8 kids with winning records will go home. This weight only has 2 ranked wrestlers. Please show me that kind of talent in 5a?

152 Ark City has 5 kids with Winning records of 31-7,27-2,11-9,11-9,12-9, again one of these will go home.

152 Concordia OMG has 9 kids with winning records of 32-3,30-5,33-7,26-9,22-5,21-11,21-13,17-13,13-9 Thats 3with 30 wins and 4 with 20 wins, 5 of these kids will go home.

145 Ark City has 4 wrestlers with winning records 33-0,20-11,13-2,4-0

145 Concordia 5 wrestlers with winning records of 32-9,25-8,16-4,15-14,15-14 one will not make it.

140 Ark City 4 kids with winning records 32-5,21-9,26-8,31-4, kids with losing records of 6-16,3-14,10-12

140 Concordia has six kids with winning records of 28-8,24-5,21-14,21-15,15-10,14-12. 2 of these guys will not go to sate. 4 kids with 20+ wins no one is ranked out of this group of 6 Please show me 4 wreslters with 20 plus wins in 5a that are not ranked in the same bracket.

135 Ark City 5 kids with winning records of 24-9,15-17,14-7,22-4,33-5,28-2 (how is a kid 28-2 and not ranked?)

135 Concordia 7 kids with winning records of 32-0,26-5,18-4,23-7,25-12,19-15,17-15 of these 7 kids only one is ranked. Bet you have never seen an undefeated kid ranked 3rd in 5a

130 Ark City 3 wrestlers with winning records of 18-12,30-6,21-11. Four wrestlers with losing records of 10-21,12-15,5-11,4-12 one of these boys will go to state.

130 Concordia 5 wrestlers with winning records of 29-6,29-7,30-8,19-6,15-14. This too only has one ranked wrestler.

125 Ark City 6 wrestlers with winning records of 33-1,10-9,26-6,14-8,33-1,27-9.

125 Concordia Has 7 wrestlers with winning records of 26-6,18-5,11-4,21-8,16-7,22-13,22-15 None of these boys are even ranked.

119 Ark City has 4 wrestlers with winning records of 24-6,33-1,16-10,27-12 The other 4 records are 1-19,1-5,9-11,18-18

119 Concordia has 9 wrestlers with winning records of 32-0,18-2,27-7,24-9,23-11,12-7,19-12,12-10,11-10. At 32-0 gets you a 2nd place ranking a 18-2 gets you a 6th place ranking.

112 Ark City 4 wrestlers with winning records of 30-9,24-3,2-0,6-3. 4 wrestlers with losing records of 5-14,1-11,1-8,3-10

112 Concordia 6 wrestlers with winning records of 32-2,24-2,23-3,29-5,21-14,19-15, 3 of these boys are ranked.

103 Ark City Highlight of the show 6 wrestlers with winning records of 31-1,30-5,20-9,28-4,25-9,17-10

103 Concordia 5 wrestlers with winning records of 21-5,23-11,21-11,19-10,19-15,

That is 96 Wrestlers in Concordia with a winning record, compared to 56 in Ark City

57 wrestlers in Concordia have a Negative record compared to 48 in Ark city. That says all we need to know right there! Twice as many schools yet only 9 more wrestlers with a losing record.

Now since your post said something about 20 wins being great in 5a. Concordia will have 61 kids with 20+ wins Ark city will have 35

Total Combined record for
Concordia Ark City
103 123-106 166-70
112 181-115 72-58
119 199-130 129-82
125 175-159 165-63
130 173-145 105-93
135 178-113 140-67
140 160-141 137-76
145 144-136 110-81
152 261-142 112-71
160 280-117 80-78
171 201-143 103-57
189 136-97 90-92
215 161-77 73-69
285 174-122 89-76

Thats a total of 2,546-1743 1571-1033
XGH you have no ground to stand on. Im a sure you want to keep it the same its working well for you. How ever it is not right that at 160 4a 8 kids will go home that could of hands down qualified in 5a. If a 4a 3rd place guys has to wrestle 6 or seven matches the 5a 6a guy should as well. I have gave you plenty of reasons. I do not think you are really a coach I real coach would not be so dumb!

Hey Lucas...You are an IDIOT.....You were 4A...I was 5A....You and Me one on one...Oh wait, you cant make it.......Ark City Regional...there is not a 4A school that could do better here than in their own regional....

Hey Beeson, way to show some class.

Look at the EMAIL this 5a Joke just sent me.

I gave you my address and my phone number you never called or showed up dont act like im running from you. I will stop you son, make you wish you played Basket Ball.

His lil forum buddy got kicked out of the Salina Tourny. both of there sons did not wrestle for third place. You need to learn how to handle a loss. Not got throwing a fit when things do not go your way. If you would have wrestled 4a or 321a you would know how to act, we were taught young to shake the the refs hand, if you win or lose, not throw fits and get kicked out because your national champ son the weekend before just got beat by a lil ol kansas boy.

lucas, who was your math teacher? figure the percentages bud. then post again. i think you will find that ark city has 53% with winning records and concordia has 34%.

who is your reading teacher bud? I did not give a percentage because Arkcity only has 8 schools. The fact of the matter is that Concordia has 96 kids with winning records 57 kids with losing records. Ark city ONLY has 56 winning records to 48 losing records.
Which makes the Ratio of winning records to losing records 1.68 for Concordia compared to Ark City at 1.16

Ok wait I did the math and Now I need to know who is your math teacher? If you use the formula you used to get your 53% for ark city. Which is 56 winning records plus 48 losing records gives you a total of 104. Now my small town educated brain tells me to divide 56 by 104 to come up with your correct 53% to make you look better we will round to 54%

Ok now this is where you went wrong!

Concordia Regional has 96 wrestlers with winning records 57 wrestlers with losing records, if you were to add 96 plus 57 you get 153. Now same small town math puts Concordia at 63% of the kids have winning records????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
My math teacher taught me to double check my work. That is when you get done you do it again to make sure you did not screw up, so you dont look like a fool in a public place some day!!!!!!

If you went to the Ark City public schools I do not need to know who your teachers were other wise I will need some names.

Beeson I tell you what, you want to settle this, buy me a plane ticket I will come back home and handle you lil man. Im sure you could sell some tickets to get your money back. We could put the video on a pay per view site and charge $2 Id bet at least 200 people will watch it.

lucas hang on and follow again. at the concordia regional there are 13 weight classes right? 16 man brackets right? multiply 13x16=208 possible wrestlers. take the ark city regional, same 13 weights, 8 man brackets. 13x8=104. still with me. you list records for only 153 wrestlers at concordia, 208 possible minus 153 actual (208-153=55). 55 equals the number of byes in the concordia regional, compare to 0 byes for ark city. still there? we are back to my original numbers, you have to account for the vacancies or wrestlers with no record. you can not leave out this information. follow? now continue your research young pupil. you have mentioned time and again that 5a should combine with 6a. fine take the campus regional and combine it with the ark city regional and add those numbers up. then come back and see me. look i'm not trying to make you look silly, but you just can not leave out useful information like 55 empty spots in the regional. those empty spots must be reflected in your report. i'll give you a c-.

Im not listing to a guy that does not even know the correct number of weight classes. ONCE AGAIN WHO IS YOUR MATH TEACHER?

Lucas:

And your grammar teacher was?

This type of thread is what makes this "forum" start sounding silly. What does all of this percentages, etc mean? Nothing really.

Richard "mr does not play well" I have a question last night as i was using your post for my research I could not help but notice that you filled every spot even had a kid that was 0-0. I cant wait to see how many of these kids show up. I think you were padding you listing but time will tell. As for my grammar teacher it is google spell check. And she did not tell me to check it twice. But I will be checking your padded stats. I cannot believe a 5a Regional has a full line up of 112 you know because you take the 14 weights x the 8 schools and you get 112 not 104 like headups big city math worked out.

I think Headup is counting on the fact that 103 really isnt a real weight class. Quote from a smart guy I know "If your 18 years old and only weigh 103lbs you better go see a doctor".

I agree with you.
But 103 is the most talented weight Ark City Regional has. the have a total of 8 kids 6 with winning records they have the 1st,4th,3rd,6th. Also at 125 they have 6 kids with winning records
1st,2nd,3rd,5th
Concordia has 4 weights with 5 kids with winning records
Concordia has 3 weights with 6 kids with winning records
Concordia has 4 weights with 7 kids with winning records
Concordia has 2 weights with 9 kids with winning records
Concordia has 1 weight with 12 kids with winning records

Ark city has 2 weights with 2 kids with winning records
Ark City has 3 weights with 3 kids with winning records
Ark City has 4 weights with 4 kids with winning records
Ark City has 3 weights with 5 kids with winning records
Ark City has 2 weights with 6 kids with winning records

Now lets talk Competition you guys say 5a wrestles better folks please show me where and when? Ima go ahead and say out of the 8 kids that will be going home at the Concordia 160 4 to 6 of them could place in 5a. There are 9 kids with single digit losses and out of these 12 kids with winning records only 2 of them are ranked that is a stacked weight you will never experience this in 5a

103 isn't a real weight class. Really. Why don't you take a note of the top names in here and see if they don't continue to be ranked and place throughout their careers. Do you think Zac Gentzler is not already a top D1 prospect. Your statement would be insulting if it were not so ignorant.

lucas you a right, i hastily threw out the numbers and made a mistake (at least i can admit when i am wrong). however the percentages don't change (much) neither does my point. the correct numbers would be 50% winning records at Ark City, and 42.8% at Concordia. now add in a 6a regional or another 5a regional and the numbers could quickly fall further out of your favor. my whole point is that NO class has is better or worse. occasionally regionals are lopsided, but it all works out at state.

I dont live in 5a fairy tale land like you boys do. I do not have to make up stats to prove that Beeson is WRONG! about his teams regional. I am using real people real records. The number of real wrestlers wrestling in Concordia this weekend is 153 of those 153 REAL WRESTLERS 96 of them have winning records. Thats a winning % of 63%

In ark city this weekend there will be 104 wrestlers, 56 of those 104 have winning records. thats barley 50%

You had to add 71 fake wrestlers to the stats to get your 34% Im not comparing byes in a 16 man bracket to a 8 man bracket.

Quality not quantity right? ok please explain this for me.
PLEASE tell Me where your Quality is at 112 you have 4 winning records the other guys combine for a record of 10-43

119 you have 4 wrestlers with winning records and 3 with a losing record totaling 11-35

130 you have 3 wrestlers with winning records and 4 with losing records totaling 31-59

160 you have 2 wrestlers with a winning record and 5 with losing records totaling 23-47

189 you have three wrestlers with a winning record and 4 with losing totaling 19-49

215 you have two wrestlers with a winning record and 5 with a losing record of 26-59

285 you have 3 wrestlers with a winning record and 4 with losing records totaling 15-50

Im not arguing that regionals need to be reassigned I am trying to make you people see the writing on the wall. 5a 6a needs to be combined. So that the new 5a 6a regionals will have better competition and you guys can have 7-12 kids with winning records per weight instead of 2-5. I can see why it is so hard for the big guys to want to change they have an easy path to state. 4a you have to work your butt off and beat alot of good kids. 5a you win two matches against some scrubs and your going to state.

One quick example: Pittsburg's 112lb. wreslter all year long was Parker Fields. He was ranked in state all year long (as high as 3rd at one point)

Parker was beat out the week before regionals. (so he basically didn't qualify for regionals due to quality!)

How many 1,2,3,or 4a schools have that much depth? It happens all the time at the bigger schools. In order to make varsity at a 5a or 6a school a wrestler may have to beat 3 or 4 people in their own practice room.

Beeson, were there any good wrestlers on JV when you wrestled at Ark City?

Lucas, what about your team?

For more wisdom pertaining to this debate please refer to my sig line!

what stats did i make up???

how in the heck do you figure that i made up 71 fake wrestlers? those are byes, bye never puts up a fight, let alone a win. thus making your "hard" track a little easier than you act.

comparing brackets is exactly what you have done, over and over and over.

i could care less whether beeson is right or you are wrong,if you're both full of hot air. i just simply showed how you leaving out a certain fact like, 71 byes skews the data. further more i could care less if the two of you beat the snot out of each other, frankly i'm tired of the whole thing.

Fred Olenburger wrestled JV his Sr. year...because of an injury Fred got to wrestle the Derby Tournament and won. The next weekend he was on JV behind a 2X State Champion.

Eddie McGlasson wrestled behind 2x and 3x State Champions for three years at Ark City. Chris Hernandez wrestled up so Eddie could make the team. Eddie made it to the finals that year. Hernandez won his 2nd State Championship.

I believe Scotty Goodale had a losing record his Freshman year. He weighed 100 lbs. and wrestled 112 because 4x State Champion Justin Ware was at 103.

Brooks Travis same scenario the next year. Wrestling behind 3x State Champion and DII National Champion Scotty Goodale. Brooks went on to be a 2x State Champion and Wrestled for the University of Missouri.

I only made the team my freshman year because number 2 seeded wrestler in the state Jace Brew pulled down to 119. I had a losing record my freshman year, 3x State Champ after that.

These are just a few that I can recall...there were several others. So to answer your question BigPin22, depth was a problem.

a good problem to have. i can recall bigpin being 3 deep at a weight with 2state placers and a state qualifier. another kid on that team, bumped from 112 to 125 to grab a varsity spot, he placed 6th at 125 the next year and only weighed 115 pounds.

I am from THE 98 and 99 Abilene State Championship teams. In 99 We sent 9 and 10 placed no Champions won by 26 points. We had at least 4 JV kids go undefeated I do not have my stat book in Denver, But I can remember the JV coming back from the Onega Varsity Tournament they said they were not invited back I guess we had a kid in almost all of the finals and it was our JV. Of the ten of us that went to state 5 went on to wrestle in College Dustin Tovar and I believe Chris Alt all american in college

That is not exaclty what i was looking for. Competition in the wrestling room is not the same as having 8 kids in your regional bracket and 5 of them have losing records of 23-47. Where is the competition if you were all better than everyone else you would not have brackets where the kids total combined record is 90-92 5a Ark City 189

Wow you sent 9 and placed 10? Math much? Awesome.........and nobody cares. But please, keep spouting off...I enjoy the show.

I think Lucas meant in 1998 they sent 9 and in 1999 they sent 10.I would agree that some bigger schools have more depth, however there could be the 3 or 4 of the best guys in the state in the same bracket in 5a/6a, but it still seems that many schools have several opens, or very week teams.That makes for a bracket with 4 outstanding guys and 4 opens/below average guys.Also I would put a few 4a schools up against any 5 or 6a school any day of the week. Clay Center...Colby...Abilene...Andale, just to name a few.

I can not believe I wasted 10 minutes of my day reading all of this stuff. I could only wish to have that much time on my hands. One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is how much heart kids have when they wrestle. Like Big Pin said....stats are for losers. If you spend too much time looking at records you are bound to be highly disappointed or shocked. All over the state there will be the would of, should of, didn't. I can guarantee you that if there was a Power Rating Index in wrestling it would probably go in this order according to the teams wrestling at Ark City....1. Pittsburg 2. Ark City 3. Emporia 4. Bishop Carroll 5. Kapaun Mt. Carmel 6. Andover Central 7. Andover 8. Wichita West...this is only an opinion on where these teams wrestle. I'm from Pittsburg, but I can remember a hell of a lot of Ark City past and present win state championships with 25-12 records, etc. They went to the toughest tourney's around and when it came time for tourney time, they just let it loose. Don't look too hard at a record...heart is all that matters....and a little bit of talent

you have 48 wrestlers with losing records. of those 48 31 of them have less than 5 wins. Thats you competition. 31 guys with less than 5 wins? You guys are all in denial. THIS IS THE TUFFEST REGIONAL IN 5a where 64% of your wrestlers with losing records have less than 5 wins?

The big question is - Why the hell is Lucas Baker still posting messages? Give it up buddy. Who gives a *&@!#.

Im glad I could be your 9th post!

5A v 4A in a dual?

8 weights to 6..........5A wins.

GO back to my lil brothers post! Chief

In fairness, there are guys out there whose only claim to fame is pinning there way though the backside at State to take 3rd there Sr. year. I wonder what a person like that has for a Total High School Record. So what was your combined High School Record LUKE?

DID YOU BUY MY PLANE TICKET YET? I will show you the only record that matters.

Wow...That Bad HUH? Probably shouldn't be worried about everyone else's records then.

seriously? Sooner or later you have to give up the glory days and live life with the lessons learned in the great sport of wrestling. Or should I say grow up?

You just described 90% of the posters in this Forum!!! Still living and trying recapture the past, and probably vicariously in their son's sports. But that is what dads and coaches are for.

I was 65 and 25 in Abilene Beeson I never said I was good I have only stated the facts. WHERE IS MY PLANE TICKET so I can shut you up once and for all.

Hes getting mad cuz I proved his tuff regional is not tuff at all its half full of losing records and 75% of the losing records have less than 5 wins. Truth Hurts huh Beeson 5a not near as good as you think. Where is my ticket?

Agree 4A is tough, especially to get through a regional. But 5A and 6A state are certainly the strongest. First look at the across the board competition. 5A and 6A wrestle and place in more and better tournaments. 5a and 6A wrestle more bigger schools. Don't know much about 321A; but 4A, with a few exceptions, also wrestles smaller schools and smaller tournaments.

Been lots of talk on combining 5A and 6A. Senseless!!! If combined, that would be the State tournament. No need for 321a or 4A State Tournaments. Could work around that and give the smaller guys a place by only taking the top three from each 5A/6A regional bracket and then filling the 4th spot with a 321A or 4A top top finisher. This is about as crazy an idea as combing 51 and 6A.

Note: Missouri added a wrestling class in 2005(?) and most think wrestling is better than ever.

I am going into my bunker and wait out the coming firestorm.

Just for grins, maybe we should come up with a power ranking like they did here: http://www.missouriwrestling.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12681

I don't necessarily think their criteria is the best but it's a start. Chief, how about doing that for next year? Should be pretty easy in excel given we come up with the criteria.

It would be fun to see and for no real reason other than to kill time waiting to see how it all shakes next weekend. Actually I'm kind of surprised no one has done it yet.

Good luck to all wrestlers these next two weekends...even those with losing records.

Is Ark city going to have live results? Or just post top 4 when it is all said and done.

Happy Birthday Lucas. Maybe you will get a plane ticket for your Birthday.

Thank you Don I dont think he will pay the 450 to get embarrassed in his home town.

No!

I asked two questions DICK which one are you answering?

LUKE, You only placed one question mark. I thought at first I was being a little hard on you, but looking through the posts, you don't really care who your fighting with, just as long as your fighting. Why don't you get in touch with me when you come to the High School State Tournament that you are so concerned with. Or you could contact me when you come to Kids State. Don't let a plane ticket be what your hiding behind.

Wont make it back for either state. I just started a new job, I have mondays off I have to work on Saturday. You want me your going to have to pay to kick your butt kicked.

Why dont you post Brackets from your tourny?

I only fight with people that deserve it. The DICKS cant prove me wrong so they resort to calling me stupid, because I pointed out a huge Flaw in 5a 6a wrestling. Please prove to me with Facts that 5a is better? They cant so they just call me stupid. Thats our top poster and MOD name calling and filling in a Bracket to make his regional better. Tisk Tisk Dick Tisk Tisk

Amen to that. Didn't NATIONAL D-1 CHAMP and 4 time KS state champ win his first title like around 03 pounds? And Tyler Caldwell, another FOUR time state champ and D-1 AA as a FRESHMAN, started his HS career as a 03 pounder.

These little dudes are REAL wrestlers and if they weighed the same as you, I beat they would beat the cr** out of you on the wrestling mat.

Baker, I'm confused. Why does Beeson have to buy YOUR ticket? You can't afford your own? You can't at least split the cost with him 50/50? Why didn't you wrestle him ions ago when the offer was put out there and you both still lived in KS?

Luke, this just shows how uninformed you really are. These are the kind of statements that make you look foolish. This is not MY TOURNEY. I have nothing to do with this TOURNEY, except it will be in my home town.

By the way, did you know that I heard the only reason they will not be posting brackets, is because they didn't want to give Lucas Baker proof that 4A is tougher than 5A. Call it a conspiracy.

What is the schedule for tomorrow? What time are the finals?

I believe the Finals start at 6:30. Wrestling starts at 9:00.

what huge flaw?? that a tournament with twice as many teams has less than twice the winning records, and well over twice as many byes. tisk,tisk,tisk. all you have really proved is what a DICK you are. btw nobody called you stupid or dumb, sounds like some deep issues there. get over yourself. either show up for the fight you've talked about, or go away.

ok I have pointed all of this out before but I guess you cannot comprehend it. So I will put numbers beside them and wait for you to answer each numbered statement with a response telling why that is ok.

1) You have a regional in 5a with 8 weights with only 5 kids thats more than Half of the weights. If the one seed gets upset by the 4 seed and loses his 4th place match you would send a kid to state without winning a match.
^flaw no one should be able to qualify for state with out winning a match.

2)189 ark city regional wrestlers total combined record is 90-92
^flaw Only having 8 schools will allow this to happen time after time. There were 5 or 6 weight classes within 15 losses of having a negative record.

3)Ark City regional has 48 wrestlers with losing records. of those 48, 31 have less than 5 wins. That is 28% of all wrestlers in ark city.

^Flaw your State Qualifying tournament has 28% of the wrestlers with less than 5 wins WOW!!!!

4)please tell me how a bye in the tournament effects the number of kids with winning records to losing records before it starts.?

Must be that new rotating schedule at McDonalds.

A few observations on this;

This is one tough regionals.

Lucas is right on a lot of what he posts

Give Lucas a break Jerry, he at least has a job.

Finally, he does at least one talent, getting J Dale and Beason into arguments that are very entertainign for the rest of us. Does that make him the winner.

Good luck to all at the Ark City Regional. They do have their work cut out for them.

You're right John. When McDonalds relocates you it has to be for the MGR. training program. Would you like fries with that?

I went back to school two years ago for Wind Turbine Technology, I know its not as good of a job that you have but its hard to beat the retarded greeter at Wal Mart J dale.

For those who started yesterday, and those who begin today, it is time to wrestle. From 3-2-1A to 6A, these wrestlers have been going at it for a few months and it is time to focus on them. They are the ones that have worked hard to get to weight, busted their butts in practice and in competitions to help their teams, and bled at times because of the brutality of the sport.

It doesn't matter what class your school is, there are some dang good wrestlers throughout the state. They have put in the work so give them the respect they deserve. This generation is now, not back when it was our generation. We owe them that for all of the sacrifices, hard work and commitment that they have given.

For those wrestlers who are injured or sick, I am sorry that you can't compete this weekend. Good luck to everyone today and I hope that all wrestlers make it through their tournaments healthy.

what is the greater at wal-mart.

lucas does make some good points that all have been addressed. if regionals were balanced the problems would be taken care of. he has not addressed the fact that he complains about a 5a bracket with only 5 wresters, and 3 byes. yet he believes that 71 empty slots in a 4a regional has nothing to do with it. he is so butt hurt that 5a has is easier that even ten years after graduating he is trying to prove a point that really can't be proven.

I proved a point and People are listing. You are so hung up on byes there are 196 wrestlers in Concordia, Ark city has 104. a 16 man bracket is twice as big as a 8 man bracket. 196 is almost twice as big as 104 So please talk some more abouts byes.

Lets talk about how 28% of the kids wrestling in Ark City have 5 wins or less.

I greatly resent your use of the word "retarded". As someone who works for an organization that supports persons with developmental disabilities, this word is very offensive to me & others. I don't know you, and have no desire to know you, but your use of such words speaks volumes about you.

Man, why can't we put our energy for denigrating others that love our sport to better use? I understand everyone's arguments (agree with a few), but I am amazed at how many people get on here to bash KIDS. I realize you're trying to put down a class (which was determined by a group in an office in Topeka, for what that's worth), but by putting down kids' records you're putting them down.

I really don't care about losing records. Just a few things I've seen over the years about losing records:
* Kid is new to the sport, but somebody that loves it knew it would be good for him/her to do. They don't have a lot of talent, but are improving their lives by being part of a great sport.

* Kid wrestles really tough competition on a regular basis. I ran a seeding meeting yesterday that had a team get several kids with losing records a seed over winning records. These kids had beat the winning records and had multiple losses to highly ranked kids. This was a 4A regional, but it happens in all classes.

* Quality of coaching and feeder programs. Let's face it, if you grew up in places like Ark City, Abilene, Clay Center, Garden City, Colby, etc,etc, you are going to have a better chance of being surrounded by good wrestling people. Some programs can't find people that want to coach for the right reasons. Some people banter back and forth for hours online when they could be involved with improving wrestling wherever they are. Coach, officiate, mentor, or do something to help out.

* Ultimately, losing records don't usually have anything to do with the real discussions about how a bracket turned out. Of course occasionally there is a "Mark Branch" moment. If you want to talk about the quality of wrestling, look at the front end.

Finally, for everyone that thinks there should be a change in regionals, state, etc,...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO GET IT ACCOMPLISHED? I'm pretty sure nobody at KSHSAA or NWCA gives a dang about your number of posts on this forum. Do something to help make a change.

I'm off to watch some good wrestling. Doesn't matter what class. I just love being around the sport and the kids that love it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retardation

Its a word that I have known since the 1st grade. At every school I went to they were known as the retarded kids. theres is alot of other crap going on right now on this planet and I just read someone is trying to get the word retarded banned this is America the same right that give My lil Brother the right to start Wrestlers for Christ give me the right to say what ever words i want. This county is turning into a bunch of sissys you cant say this or do that cuz you might offend someone. Who cares what other people think. You want to get down in the middle of the mat and pray with your buddies go ahead who cares what other people think. You refuse to stop saying a word that has been taught and repeated you entire life who cares its called the First Amendment you dont like it you are a communist and you need to leave. Move to Canada they wont ever piss you off.

* Ultimately, losing records don't usually have anything to do with the real discussions about how a bracket turned out. Of course occasionally there is a "Mark Branch" moment. If you want to talk about the quality of wrestling, look at the front end.

I agree with this to a point. But when 28% of you regional has less than 5 wins something should be changed.

WHO CARES! Enough is enough. Your all acting like a bunch of little kids. Grow up! You've all made your points, quit hounding on each other and praise the kids for their work this weekend.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but... what are you doing to change it? I was one of the original people that worked with Oeser to get a different regional design. Please don't take this as me agreeing with the percentage of losing records as the deciding factor of changing it. I believe it should be the number of quality kids being left at home.

By the way Lucas, I coached 6A, 5A, and 321A. I wrestled 4 & 5A. I believe that due to this, I may have a broader and less bias perspective of the quality of wrestling in Kansas. I was not stud at any level, but I can tell you that the level of wrestling is good at the top of each. There are ebbs and flows in quality all of the time for each classification. Stats can be made into just about anything you want. If you are truly just angry that more kids with losing records get to wrestle at regionals, you need to figure out a way to ensure that all teams wrestle the same strength of schedule, have the same support (administratively and financially), and many other factors. Of course this goes against our freedom of choice that you spoke to earlier. "Faults" in this system are alive and well in about 45 of our states. If we ever find a system that works for everyone, it will be a miracle.

Amen. Best to all wrestlers this weekend & next.