Getting it back into one building

42 of the 49 states that have HS wrestling conduct their state tournament in one place. We are really cheating our fans and our wrestlers by not finding a way to make this happen.

Why can't we make it a three day event?

Why can't we move it each year? Hays, Wichita, Topeka?

5A and 6A need to have two 16 team regionals so that only 8 wrestlers make it to state, 25% just like 4A. This will make the state tournament more manageable.

I would like to hear some feedback on MAKING IT HAPPEN. I know the majority agrees that it would be the best thing that could happen to Kansas High School wrestling so lets agree on that and figure out a plan. Bowden was too lazy to listen to a proposal but just maybe the new guy will be a wrestling advocate.

While I agree with the goal, with the demise of the Coliseum, I do not believe Kansas has the facility to handle such an event any longer. The new Intrust Arena in downtown has yet to test it's capacity and still has had many complaints. I believe it would not be even close to being able to handle the weekday parking concerns. The other two facilities would not be able to handle the crowd IMO.

I would be fine with only 8 wrestlers at each weight in 5a and 6a. Three days would also help with the congestion. Missouri does 3 days. The places that I can think of that could house this type of tournament are the major universities and the Wichita area.

So now we are to the chicken or the egg, you really need state support to get legitimate talks with any major arena going, but you can't it seems get their support without any commitments from a major arena.

What's next...?

There, fixed it for you!

If there is a large enough venue having them in one place would be a great thing for Kansas wrestling.

I don't think there is a large enough venue.

Missouri tournament is on 8 surfaces over 3 days. There are venues with space enough for 8 surfaces. It does not take space for 15 mats. Is there not 8 mats down in topeka for kids state?

Isn't this argued every stinkin' year?

Cokeley:

Just how many face-to-face meetings has one had with Bowden on such proposals, that he's refused to take to the KSHSAA Board, to give you the ability to slander him on here by calling him "lazy"? Lazy is a harsh word to call someone, when they are subject to needing to take such a proposals to a BOARD and they ultimately make that call!

Bowden & I butted heads on several things, but I'd be very careful with throwing a term on "lazy" around or labeling him as such. Are there things that need to be improved on, sure - but to call him "lazy"???

Can't wait to see you as the Asst. Exec. and see how you react to all the comments that'll be fired at you, as you so easily fire at him!!!

It's just tiring...

Just how many spectators do those venues seat? It's not only about mat surface it's also about seating. Do we really want to hold a state tournament where mom and dad might not be able to see their kid wrestle? Intrust could possibly handle the seating and mats but I would hate to hear all the complaints on here about the parking afterwards. For those that don't know, you would have to be trolleyed to the arena from parking areas throughout the city.
The other two facilities mentioned don't come close to having enough seating.

Lest we forget about all the petty gripes on this forum about the Coliseum when it was being used! From the "security nazis" to the "cooler nazis" to every other type of "nazis". People can always find something to bitch about if they look hard enough. We had a great thing with that venue which we will likely not see again for the next couple of decades!

Missouri splits wrestling into 2 sessions. Class 1 & 2 go in the morning session. Class 3 & 4 go in the afternoon session. All classes are brought back together for the semi-final and finals. This format does help ease the issue of parking and seating.

2011 Missouri state wrestling championship

mizzou arena - Seating Capacity - 15,061 (60% lower bowl, 40% upper bowl)

Bramlage coliseum - 12,528

Allen fieldhouse - 16,300

Topeka expocentre - 10,000

Intrust arena - 15000

Kansas Coliseum - 9,686

How cool would it be to have that court covered with mats from door to door at Allen Field House? That may send some sport fans into a tizzy. It would be worth fighting the traffic, parking, motels, etc just to see the KU faithful in mourning.

I think KU seats 16K to 18K. KSU about the same. I think the MU arena is about the sames size. MO State Tournament was wrestled in sessions; i.e., I think separate sessions until the last day, for example: class 4 opening rounds in a session, class 2 opening rounds in a session; several differnt sessions daily.

I think the lower stands/bleachers at KU are moveable (can be moved back from sidelines). Don't know about KSU-never been there. Need more width for 2 rows of mats than a BB court. Have to also check the floor length to insure can lay down a row of 4 mats.

If 16 brackets are to big, and you want a one site State, send only the 1st and 2nd placers from each regional (do an 8 bracket state). Some other states do!

There was no parking issues last year at Intrust.NONE,unless you can't walk a block or two. Come on fans lets get 4a,5a,6a back together again.
Dan Gentzler

Allen, Bramlage and Koch are ******ball arenas. My guess is you can get about 4 mats on the floor. So seating capacity doesn't matter. Also, all those seating capacities can be fudged to make them look bigger than they actually are when you have to lose some seats to make room for mats. I would bet the only one close to being able to handle the mats and seating of the Coliseum, is Intrust.

That is because nobody was there. You don't get the crowds until you add in 4A and below. Besides, I doubt you will see Intrust actively go after KSHSAA business and vice versa. I don't think Intrust feels they need that type of event there right now.

Allen Field house is one big big place. Need to get the tape measure out.

Come the finals of the Missouri State tournament, what % of the stadium is actually filled? A smaller environment may be more intimate in terms of seating. Make it looked packed for the wrestlers.

I would love for all classes to be in 1 building. 3 day event could work but I don't believe that it needs to move around. Find the facility that works best and go with it.

Currently I think that place is Intrust in Wichita. There would be plenty of seating and contrary to some thoughts out there parking is not an issue. Some people just need to quit being lazy and be willing to walk a block or so.

I would say that the plan to make it happen is to organize an online petition that people could sign out lining the benefits.

Two words to solve your seating, parking, hotel, resurant, and facility issues.

Kansas Speedway

Put a top over all the the Wizards new soccer stadium in KC,KS and hold all the state wrestling tournaments at one site. Seats 18,000 and the playing surface is probably 150 by 85 Yards. Can probably put down at lleast 12 if not 16 mats.

Has any event of this size been held in Intrust to date? The short answer is NO. Has any event of this size been held in Intrust during working weekday hours? The short answer is NO. Are people on this board willing to pay upwards of $20.00 or more for parking within 5-7 blocks? I doubt it, particularly given a winter event. The facts are, there are parking problems with Intrust, and this comes from someone who supported and still supports the concept of Intrust. The parking within "two blocks" myth is one circulated after the arena was built and the county decided not to supply an addequate amount of parking. Their own consultants told them there wasn't enough parking near the arena. The hope is that if people are required to walk some distance it will create business oportunities for bars and restaraunts that those people have to walk by and frequent. To date, that hasn't proven to be the case. The over-whelming majority of the parking is well beyond that distance.
None of this matters because neither party (Intrust or KSHSAA), has any desire to deal with the other in the near future.

It is not SLANDER if it is true. For goodness sake, I couldn't even get him to type t r a c k w r e s t l i n g . c o m into his computer and check it out. I have emailed him, called him, talked to him face-to-face but since I am not an AD or Administrator he doesn't really care what I have to say.

I put in my resume and cover letter. One thing I have going for me, I have never directed a wrestling tournament that lost money!


Read below and YOU decide how great of a job he has done.


Mr Cokeley

Responses inserted into original email text to insure I did not miss any of your questions.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:29 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Rick,

What could you possibly say other than “You are right on nearly every point Mr. Cokeley.”? Show me the data! Have you looked at trackwrestling.com?? NO

Have you tried to develop an officials evaluation system? The current selection and assignment process used to make post-season assignments is the one as staff we are to use

Have you put together a proposal for a single site state tournament for all classes? No

Have you evaluated the aging officials pool and cited a potential risk of running out of experienced officials? Each of our staff is aware of the variety of issues relevant to the pool of officials in each sport including age, geographical distributions, etc.

Have you fought the 6th match in one day proposal? The proposal was presented to the KSHSAA Executive Board. At the time I explained the concerns shared to me and explained the NFHS rules. Also appearing before the board expressing support for a proposal to modify the NFHS rule was a KSHSAA member school administrator.

Will Cokeley




From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:22 PM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Mr. Cokeley

Your thoughts and opinion as to the manner in which I carry out my duties are noted. I will not respond to personal attacks nor reciprocate in kind.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:11 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Rick,

I am not asking you if you use the information to make assignments. I am asking you if you have it and I could either see it or you could put it into a graph that would show the distribution of your officials. I think we need to use the data to identify a problem and justify making some changes. I think you need to factor in succession when making post season assignments. There is very little change and no focus on developing officials for the future. If 10 officials decide to quit this year that might mean you would have to hire 10 officials who have NEVER been to a State Tournament. You are so stuck on NOT CHANGING that you won’t even consider that there are BETTER ways to do things. It is just like the fact that we are one of a very few states that split our tournaments over multiple sites. You know that one site over three days would make a huge financial impact but you just hide behind “Everyone likes it the way it is” instead of doing some research and presenting some proposals that would promote wrestling and give the kids a greater experience and opportunity to be seen by college coaches. You appear to NOT CARE. Instead of creating ideas you fight those who do. Just like trackwrestling.com. Have you ever looked at it? It puts the Preferred Education Software to shame! Why won’t you even consider it? I get frustrated because you, in my opinion, don’t take your job as seriously as I would. You do not promote or try to improve Kansas High School Sports. You are only interested in regulating them.

Will Cokeley

From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:00 PM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Mr. Cokeley

Yes we have information on officials as to their date of birth and years of experience BUT it has never been a directive that we factor age in as one of the items that is included in making post-season assignments.

While I earnestly do try to respond to your emails professionally and not in a manner which would demean the question or concern, if I believe I’ve responded to your question I reserve the right to not again respond to the same question/concern.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:50 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Rick,

I KNOW that you have the years of experience or years registered, years working a regional, years working a state tournament data available. If you do not bring in a normal amount on the left side you will run out of experienced officials. It is simple statistics. You cannot just continue to look at THIS YEAR. You need to plan for the future. Your process is not good and it is heavily laced with politics and good ole boy network instead of getting the BEST officials available. I know and you must admit, you are having trouble getting enough officials to do the regional tournaments. Yet, you are doing nothing to develop quality officials and make sure that you have an adequate number. Einstein’s definition of insanity “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

Will Cokeley



From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:40 PM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Mr. Cokeley

To respond to your question in total – no I do not (nor does any of the KSHSAA staff in making assignments of officials to any KSHSAA post-season events) “evaluate” the age of officials being assigned to post-season events. There is no “normal distribution” relevant to age of officials that we are charged with including as one of the factors in making any of the post-season assignments.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:13 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Rick,

I never inferred that age was a factor in determining who was selected. I was asking if you had evaluated the age of your officials, as I know you have this information available, to see if you had a data trend that shows we are having a problem. If you do not have a normal distribution then your process is not working. If the population is skewed to the right then you are going to run out of officials with decent experience. Another way to look at would be to put a chart together with years of experience to see if you are bringing in new officials so you don’t paint yourself into a corner. This should be a basic, fundamental requirement of your job. It is called succession planning. I won’t charge you for my consulting. 

Will Cokeley



From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 9:37 AM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Mr. Cokeley

The age of officials assigned to KSHSAA tournaments is not factored into the assignments.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 9:28 AM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: KSHSAA Wrestling Officials

Rick,

Do you have the distribution data for the age of officials used at last year’s state tournaments? I am just curious if we have a normal distribution spread from 20-60 or if we have a skewed curve heavily weighted to the right, towards 60.

We are having trouble getting enough officials to do our youth tournaments now. This is starting to impact the numbers for KSHSAA Regional tournaments. My theory is that we are losing a great number of officials because they give up after a few years of being turned down for a HS State tournament when they know their skills and abilities are at a distinct advantage over some of the elder statesmen who get selected year-in and year-out. A good example, Mike Ford from Prairie View was retired for a number of years. His son graduated and he put his stripes back on and was immediately assigned the 4A state tournament in his first year back. His skills had severely eroded and his attitude has become nearly hostile. While Denny Hensley, head official for the Kids State and a veteran of over 10 Tulsa Nationals, was passed over for I believe the fifth time. He is a far better official than 50% of those who were assigned KSHSAA State Tournaments. The process is broken.

Will Cokeley

Anybody remember the Little Apple Classic in Ahearn arena? That is the most mats I've ever seen in one place. Not too sure about seating, though.

It's called TACT Will, and it's clearly evident that you lack it when trying to "make your point", whatever it may be! I'm surprised, and actually you've just demonstrated with how wrong you are to be calling Bowden lazy! If I were in his position and you were writing me such crap, I would have blocked/spammed your garbage right into the trash can! Yet time and time again, he responded to your attacks and rudeness! Far from what I'd call "lazy".

You posed a question, and he answered. You didn't like his answer(s), so you reposed the same question. He finally cut you off, after your last asinine comment(s)/personal attack and you call that lazy!?

Try this on for size, and tell me if you ever heard it: "You'll catch more flies with honey, than vinegar." (http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/id...th+vinegar.html)
Try it sometime. You'll be surprised at the results. It's also never a good idea to burn bridges that you'll someday need to cross!

I'm out! This OLD 38-year-old, "good-ol'-boy" needs pack his gear for State! Where are you officiating? Oh, that's right, here's a link to get you started: http://www.kshsaa.org/Public/Official/NewOfficials.cfm

I have seen quite a few KU games in Allen Field House going back to 1985. I can't say that I have ever watched wrestling in that historic building, but that would be awesome!

Sportsfan02- Event of what size? Number of spectators?

Name me one freaking event that you have paid $20 to park at Intrust. I have been to a lot of things at Intrust and the most I ever paid was $10 and that was right across the street and was the first event I ever attended so was unsure of all the areas.

Most of the time it is $5-$8 dollars and I am from within 2 blocks of the arena. I might add these have all been sold-out or close to sold out events.

I guess the NCAA has no problem scheduling a future 1st round tournament game at Intrust and that would be during "working hours" but I am sure they have not done their homework before making this decision.

Yeah oddly enough the parking gets more expensive the farther away from the arena you get, up to and including parking meters when you get over by Century II. As to you being unsure of the parking, that is one of the biggest complaints, and I have experienced it myself. You are never sure of what is public vs private parking and which is available at what times of the day or night.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't that NCAA thing a women's game?

Shane, you are off topic but I will address your concerns.

See Rick's responses to questions regarding his efforts to improve. NO is pretty much the only word in his vocab. He lost $40,000 plus on a HS state wrestling tournament. The only way that happens is if you don't thoroughly do your job, ie you are lazy or maybe you just suck. I thought he would rather be called lazy than told he sucks.

Where are you in life? How far have your methods carried you? I have only seen you on the mat so the only thing I know is that you haven't skipped many meals. Maybe you have been eating the honey that you were going to use to catch flies with. Who wants to catch flies anyway? I like where I am and I will continue to pick when to use honey, vinegar or whatever I need to. I am certainly not setting out to please you.

Rick may have demonstrated a lack of laziness in your mind by responding to me but I would actually call it stupid. I have had many, many exchanges with him over the past five years. All very similiar to this. He never directly answers a question so you are always left wondering what to do to stay compliant. If I were in his job I would be so busy improving things and actually doing my job that I wouldn't have time to exchange worthless emails with a crazy dad. Heck, I do it just to have fun and entertain myself. I know that my efforts with him are wasted. You need to read the inserted answers again. NO he has never tried to assemble a proposal to get all of the state tournaments in one building yet he brags about how great the state track meet is?!?

I know you are one of the good ole boys and congratulations to winning the popularity contest called getting a state assignment. Don't let it go to your head, it does NOT mean that you are one of the best officials. It only means that you promote yourself and perhaps do "other things" to get your name written down on a recommendation list.

Finally, read your handy Officials directory and you will find my name in it already. I have been registered for several years. I have NEVER put in for a regional as I have a family of wrestlers that are a higher priority. By the time they are done I will be willing to admit that my reaction time is not adequate and that it would not be fair to the wrestlers for a 60 year old guy to be stumbling around trying to figure out how to fairly score the match. Advice that I will give to you and that you should share with some others like Brad, Carl, Art, Johnny, etc.

Hope all your calls are fair and just with no bias this weekend. May the force be with you!

Back to the topic!! All in favor of a single site, three day state tournament vote YES!!!

I have a friend that does work for alot of sports events and when asked the question about who could host such an event and how Missouri did..this is what she said:

Missouri held theirs at Mizzou Arena in Columbia which holds just over 15,000. There are four school size classes in MO for wrestling. During most of the finals, 70 to 75% of the seats were full...which I think is a pretty good turnout. ... As far as venues are concerned, I think the following could hold 8 mats: Intrust Bank Arena in Wichita (15,000 seats), Koch Arena in Wichita (10,500), Kansas Expocentre in Topeka (10,000 seats), Bicentennial Center in Salina (7,500 seats). Allen Fieldhouse holds 16,300 and Bramlage Coliseum can seat 12,500, but I'm not sure they can retract the bleachers back enough in either of those venues to accommodate 8 mats. If they're really considering moving back to having all the classes at one venue, they should really contact the Missouri State High School Activity Association (MSHSAA.org) to see how they run it. It was a well-oiled machine. I'm also think Iowa runs an all-class tourney as well.

This is information relayed to me...

One State Tournament Location [Re: Bill Johnson]
smokeycabin
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 1893
Loc: Shawnee Kansas

College Coaches do attend H.S. State Tournaments. They are not only looking at Seniors they are looking at some of the freshman, sophmores & juniors as future recruits. They do not ONLY attend summer wrestling national events. 1 or 2 State locations would be much better for our sport - in my opinion. Additonally, some of the other current H.S. wrestlers, parents of high school wrestlers, fans, High School and College coaches I talked to agreed with my opinion.

[quote] "See Rick's responses to questions regarding his efforts to improve. NO is pretty much the only word in his vocab. He lost $40,000 plus on a HS state wrestling tournament. The only way that happens is if you don't thoroughly do your job, ie you are lazy or maybe you just suck. I thought he would rather be called lazy than told he sucks." [quote]

Cokely, you're statements are bold and somewhat contoversial, but I think your series of emails with Rick Bowden really shows the true colors of the KSHAA. I compliment you for at least backing up your comments with some substance. Back to the KSHAA, they are stuck in the past, have very little plans to progress the sport in Kansas and are being reactive instead of leading. I was really surprised how Rick's replies are so defensive. Yes, you're requests we're critical but were also constructive and not personally attacking.

I would disagree on your use of the word "Lazy" describing Rick as think that is a little harsh. I've met Rick Bowden I know he works hard and is smart. I think a better word to use would be complacent. It seems he works hard doing the same old thing, but I don't see any initiative to change and improve the situation.

You're example of losing $40K on the state tournaments represents this. That should not be acceptable. My guess as to why they lost so much is because the tournament is at 3 sites. If it was at one site, you only have to pay for one facility. I say get creative ( I've read a lot ideas on the site)and find a way to have the tournament at one location. It would save money, and would be better for all the wrestlers.
Just takes a little visiona and initative. The facilities are there.

State at one place!
Being an Iowa high school state place winner (long time ago) was one the biggest thrills of my life. I get goose bump just thinking about it. 15000 + screaming fans, parking 3 blocks away, watching all your friends wrestle in different Classes. I can even remember the frosty malts! Believe me as a wrestler and now a parent not having this all together is a shame for everyone. I do think you need to a have a 16 man brackets at state so every wrestler gets a legitimate chance to qualify. I believe there are plenty of venues that can house this and all you need is time, so start early and stay late if that’s what it takes. Today’s tournaments lack that excitement that only a big crowd can give. Please continue the fight as the reward is priceless for all involved.

I spent the better part of last weekend hanging out at MIZZOU Arena watching the MO state wrestling tournament. I attended the two all class sessions: semis Friday night and finals Saturday night. These two nights are typically the most attended throughout the weekend. Parking was crappy but better than my experience at the Bicentennial Center last year. Plenty of seating and not a bad seat in the house which is the opposite of the BC. Each session cost $8 and to be honest I would pay twice that for the level of entertainment I get with all four classes wrestling at one site.

I have no idea why KS doesnt combine into one site. KS definitely has several venues capable of handling a one site State Tournament using the MO template.

I recommend we start the change by availing a signature petition this weekend at each state site. Surely the majority of wrestling fans will sign the petition and that alone should force ADs and KSHAA to at least consider the change.

I nominate Mr. Cokeley to head this up for the CL4 site! Gotta go pack BC I gotta leave the the Ozarks at 0330 IOT keep my date with the first round at the BC tomorrow.

Are 8 mats really needed for a one site state tournament. If you could do it in 3 days (thurs Fri and Sat) in sessions could it be done with 6 mats. Six 38 ft mats in 2 rows of 3 mats would require and area 114 feet X 76 feet. Plus you would need additional room around the block of 6 for walking, scorers etc--how much additional room--10 feet? So, a minimum of 135 feet X 96 feet. If using 40 foot mats 160 feet X 80 feet

Have tried for two days to find the floor specs for Allen Field House, Bramblage, and Koch arena. Must be top secret info.

Hartman Arena floor size is 200 X 85-a regulation ice hockey floor-should be able to get eight 38 or eight 40 foot mats down with adequate perimeter space. But, Hartman only seats 5,000 for sporting events.

Landon Arena at the Topeka Expocenter. Specs say the floor is 221 feet X 111 feet, 22500 square feet. Picture show an ice hockey floor which if regulation is 200 X 85. Landon seats 7450 if configured for hocky. Might jam a few more for HS wrestling.

Appears Landon Arena may be the best currently available location for a one site state HS wrestling tournament--other than Allen or bramblage (if we knew their demensions).

If going to do only one tournament it should be in a central location.

Topeka

Is hartman arena going to be big enough to house 5&6a It looks awful small

Will there be room to pray at the center of the mats? Just teasing!

If it is not big enough then we will have more leverage to move to one site with multiple sessions.

It should be about perfect for those two classes.

Not there yet.....but I talked to some coaches who held a workout there tonight. they were suprized how little room there was on the floor. The wrestlers may be forced to find room in the stands with the spectators. I hope it is not too crowded.

A picture of the mat set-up in Mizzou Arena.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/ridetheyard23/2011MissouriStateWrestling.jpg

It's a little difficult to see but behind the yellow bunting are the seats pushed back that are normally courtside. The fact these seats are not permanent is what affords enough room for eight mats. Does Allen and Bramlage have the same set-up with the seats courtside?

Mr. Cokeley I have wondered about that for a long time. When I first moved here in 1990 and found out about the way Kansas handles state wrestling I honestly thought people were kidding me. My personal opinion is this is unexcusable. I, like most on here, would love to see all of the state wrestling in one location. But I have heard all of the excuses of why we can't do the one location scenario. Excuses like we don't have a venue large enough to hold all of the spectators, we don't have a city with enough hotel space, it would take too many days, or we don't have a venue with enough floor space for all of the mats. So, the biggest question is, IF we all want it, how do we go about making this change??? Anyone who has ever been in sales knows the process of closing a sale. Those who want to see the one location scenario need to get in there, discuss the possibilities, overcome objections, come up with plausable alternatives, select the best location and make it happen. I'm not holding my breath but here's hoping.

The seats do not slide in Bramlage, but they do in Allen.

The question is:

Could Hartman Arena adequately accomodate a three day state schedule staggered with all four classes? Change 6A and 5A to 16 team regionals which will qualify eight (25%) to state. Wrestle 321A & 6A in a sessions, 4A & 5A in a sessions until we get to the semi finals which would all be wrestled Friday night. Finals all on Saturday night. What would the Greater Wichita Chamber of Commerce be willing to chip in? Can we throw in trackwrestling.com to manage the tournament and provide streaming internet coverage? Could someone get attendance numbers so we could start doing the math on this idea?

Having pondered the question of one venue even before the Coliseum closed I have come to this conclusion. The only way for it to happen and the venue be addequate is to, use two different facilities on Friday in Wichita. Then on Saturday combine them into one tournament at Intrust Arena. What you would have to do is run your typical Friday preliminaries with 5A and 6A at Hartman Arena and 4-3,2,1A at Intrust. Then on Saturday all wrestling would move as I said, to Intrust. You would use as many mats as would fit on the floor of Intrust on Saturday. You might have to run an additional side of consolations on Friday in order to eliminate a few more wrestlers but I believe this formula would allow all classes to get under one roof for Saturday which is what is important. Like I said in another thread, it doesn't matter until 2014 anyway. Most likely you would need to pick up hosts for each site much like the old days when the tournament at the Coliseum was hosted in part by what was at that time the old Chisolm Trail League. The Greater Wichita Athletic League could host the tournament at Hartman and the AVCTL could host the tournament at Intrust. All that means is each league would be responsible for running the tournament and supplying volunteers.

The schedule Missouri uses is posted on one of the Missouri wrestling sites, if follows:

Competition Schedule-

Weigh-in Schedule
Thursday 8 a.m. Class 1 and 2
Thursday 3 p.m. Class 3 and 4
Friday 8 a.m. Class 1 and 2
Friday 12 Noon Class 3 and 4
Saturday 8:30 a.m. All Classes

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 1 (8 mats - 336 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Class 1 First-Round
10 a.m. Class 2 First-Round
10 a.m. Class 1 First-Round Wrestlebacks
10 a.m. Class 2 First-Round Wrestlebacks

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 2 (8 mats - 336 matches)
4 p.m. Gates Open

5 p.m. Class 3 First-Round
5 p.m. Class 4 First-Round
5 p.m. Class 3 First-Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 4 First-Round Wrestlebacks

Friday, Feb. 18
Session 3 (8 mats - 616 matches)
8:30 a.m. Gates Open

9:30 a.m. Class 1 Quarterfinals
9:30 a.m. Class 2 Quarterfinals
9:30 a.m. Class 1 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
9:30 a.m. Class 2 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
1:30 p.m. Class 3 Quarterfinals
1:30 p.m. Class 4 Quarterfinals
1:30 p.m. Class 3 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
1:30 p.m. Class 4 Second-Round Wrestlebacks
6 p.m.* Semifinals (all classes)
6 p.m.* Third-Round Wrestlebacks (all classes)

Saturday, Feb. 19
Session 4 (8 mats - 280 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Fourth-Round Wrestlebacks (all classes)
12 Noon Fifth-Place Matches (all classes)
12 Noon Third-Place Matches (all classes)

Saturday, Feb. 19
Session 5 (4 mats - 56 matches)
3:30 p.m. Gates Open

4 p.m. Finalists March

4:30 p.m. Championship Bouts

Sport0,

Does your proposal incorporate the change in the number of state qualifiers? I believe that portion of the proposal is critical to the feasibility of any solution. Why should 1/2 or more of the varsity wrestlers in 5A and 6A be allowed to qualify for state? Reduce it to 25%. In the early 80's only 8 qualified for state in 5A and 6A and the tournaments were hosted by high schools. Junction City hosted 5A and 6A in the same high school in 1979 and 1980. I am confident if one high school can house two classifications at a time then the Hartman could handle it.

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 1 (8 mats - 336 matches)
9 a.m. Gates Open

10 a.m. Class 321A First-Round
10 a.m. Class 4A First-Round
10 a.m. Class 321A First-Round Wrestlebacks
10 a.m. Class 4A First-Round Wrestlebacks

Thursday, Feb. 17
Session 2 (8 mats - 336 matches)
4 p.m. Gates Open

5 p.m. Class 321A Second-Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 4A Second- Round Wrestlebacks
5 p.m. Class 5A First-Round
5 p.m. Class 6A First-Round

If we used this format for 321A and 4A then there would only be wrestlers left in each class so the total number of wrestlers going into Friday morning would be equal to the number of wrestlers you had in Hartman this past Friday. That being said, a split schedule would EASILY house the participants and crowd until we are down to the final six for Saturday. This would give plenty of time on Saturday to make the medal placers feel special. This year at Salina everything was rush, rush, rush.

Three days are utilized by Iowa and Missouri so why can't our kids miss three days of class?

Either or, that is a separate issue. I do believe my plan is workable with current numbers. Something that would be of interest is, would the coaches favor going back to only wrestling out to 3rd/4th place in order to eliminate matches?

I thought of that idea as well. Medaling 4/32 in 5A and 6A is less than 12% and medaling 6/64 is less than 10%. I didn't broach it as I figured the lack of uniformity would cause more detractors and I would like to get as many on the bandwagon as possible.

These ideas are all well and good and I doubt anyone can argue that this is what would be best for the fans, however, when the state went to the separate locations each class went to four mats for the state tournament. How many of you remember the days of 4-6A in one building, 3 mats, 9am on Friday until 10 pm Friday evening, the old coliseum had it's problems, and there multiple incidents of parents/coaches/wrestlers/officials getting into altercations. Mr. Bowden told me that since the change to four mats for each class there have been practically none of these types of incidents occurring. The four mats is what's best for the kids, and no one can argue that the kids are not what it should be about. I imagine that spreading it out over three days would cause some challenges to the way things are done and it would be best for college recruiters to focus on one location as well as fans, is that what's best for kids? Somehow convince me that is the case, I'm listening. In the meantime, I believe what is currently done is what's best for the kids.

Coach, I do not believe spreading the tournament over three days is an option due to budget restraints on every school district. I saw none of the problems that you describe at the Coliseum and certainly wouldn't blame them on the use of three mats as opposed to four if I did. The day got much longer when they started wrestling out to 5th/6th place. Until then Saturday was filled with some much needed and well deserved breaks for the volunteers and coaches.

I too agree that I don't recall seeing any incidents involving parents, fans, coaches, officials etc... but that came directly from Mr. Bowden, stating those incidents had gone away. I remember how tough it was to eat at 10 on Friday night and be up and at it again the next day at 9, I can imagine a few parents coaches etc... being tired and more prone to argument. I love the 4 mats and Hays is a great experience for 321A and I have coached at one time or another in all of the classes.

Lots of good ideas here and interest in getting into one site.

But, the one issue I don't think will ever fly is KSHSAA combining 6A and 5A. The are pros and cons to this proposal, and I don't care either way, but I think the cons out weigh the pros.

1. Wrestling is only one of 14 KSHSAA sports

2. The 32-32-64-96 provides the best hierachial scheme for qualifying the best teams/individuals for all sports for state level competition.

3. If you change the scheme for wrestling (combine 6A and 5A) do you chang the scheme for all other sports. Seldom if ever is a top rated 4A football, Basketball, volleyball or soccer team going to beat a top rated 6A or 5A team in those sports. Perhaps they can in the more individualized sports--wrestling, golf, and tennis.

4. The current scheme provides the most kids in all sports a chance to experience state level qualification and competion. And that is a KSHSAA goal.

5. For wrestling, a review of Chief's 23 Feb All Class Rankings reveals that of the 140 ranked individuals (14 weights X 10 ranked wrestlers), 33 (23+%)are 6A, 41 (29+%) are Class 5A, 40 (28+%0 are 4A, and 27 (19+%) are 321A.

6. 6A and 5A combined provide 74 of the 140 ranked wrestler--or 52+%.

7. Class 5A with 32 schools had 41 ranked wrestler, one more than the the 40 ranked wresler from 64 schools in 4A. 6A had 33 ranked wrestlers compared to 27 in 321A and 40 in 4A.

8. Combining 6A and 5A into a 64 school class would probably still rovide over half of the top 140 ranked wrestlers-but could only send half of those to state. That's a lot of ranked wrestlers to leave home. Another way to express it is wrestling in a combined 6-5A class would be almost twice as competitive as 4A.

9. Cutting 6A and 5A medalist to 4 and keeping six 6 medalists in 4A and 321A as a time saving measure does not make sense--thats 28 matches (2 rounds)(14 and 14). Why not just reduce all four classes to 4 medalist--that's twice the minutes saved.

9. Recombining 4A-6A in one facility might be the only practical way to have a more inclusive state tournament. If they did 4A-6A on 9 mats at the Coliseum, than surely they could do 4A-6A on 8 mats. May have to start earlier and stay later. May have to do it in sessions.

10. A one site state tournament in two facilities in the same town is a loser.

11. Think at least a one site state tournament for three classes is very doable, possibly a four class tournament but would require a 3rd day. But using 6A and 5A as the bill payers does not fly.

That was the intent of my suggestion.

Then we are out of options because we don't have a venue that can handle it. Just because other states have venues that can handle it, doesn't mean Kansas does.

What about Landon Arena in Topeka. 221 X 111 feet. Will hold 8 40 foot mats--maybe even 9. Seats 7700 in theater seats. May add a few additional seats for a four 4 mat finals--some seats pull out from under from under the main seats. Could add s many as 528 seats for a capacity of 8200+. Note: would take some manpower, time and extra costs to add the additional seats.

Understand the reason probably not in Landon already is booking conflicts. Circus is and has been booked into Landon for the last weekend in Feb for years. Don't know about the 3rd weekend in Feb or 1st weekend in March. But, if KSHSAA were to say they could bring in 13 to 15K spectators, Landon might come available.
I think most of the surrounding states hold their tournaments a week before Kansas. Can Kansas shorten the year by a week--or start a week earlier. Need to do something to consolidate the tournaments rather than playing switch'em or talking the issue to death.


Comments on Landon from the Kids Wrestling community? Understand you have a Kids State at Landon in late March.

Please poke holes in my plan? I did NOT request to combine 5A and 6A or change the size of the classes just the number of state qualifiers. Why not 3 days? I PROMISE you it will make money and put to shame the current cost/earnings model. My numbers work. Why can Iowa and Missouri make 3 days work but Kansas cannot???

Do 3 days, with 3 classes (or all 4 classes) Make it Topeka, Wichita, Salina, wherever. It will be more fun, better for fans, and surely will make more money to have a packed arena instead of half-full ones all over.

I take these word of yours, and others, as advocating to either combine 6A and 5A, or somehow reduce the number of wrestlers they send to state. Somewhere in this Forum today I posted some figures on Chief's 23 Feb All Class rankings. I reperat: of 140 ranked wrestlers (14 weights X 10 ranked wrestlers per weight), 74 were 6A and 5A (52+%)(33 6A and 41 5A), 40 were 4A (28+%) and 27 321A (19+%). 5A with half as many wrestlers had one more ranked wrestlers than 4A. So, if we can accept that 5A and 6A dominates Kansas wrestling--why reduce the number they send to state. The old 25% VS 50% arguement is just that--OLD.

When the Coliseum was in use it held 9 full mats comfortably.


The Coliseum held approximately 9k and was filled to capacity for finals. That was with three classes.

Will: Look at Colorado's schedule; they do four classes in three days. But, of course they hold it in the Pepsi Center in Denver on 10 mats and have about 18,000 seats available. No facility in the Kansas can match that.
I applaud your idea, but I doubt you will ever disentrench 3-2-1A from Hays. I just don't see it happening. I could see 4As moving back with 6A and 5A, but I think the chances of all four classes in the same place rank right up there with you and Rick Bowden going bowling together.
When I was still coaching down there, I proposed the idea of putting 6A and 5A in Bramlege and 4A and 3-2-1A in Ahearn -- everything in one town, then move the finals all to Bramlege. I could see K-State being cooperative with that, but I think it would be a cold day in Missouri before KU would ever allow wrestling at Allen.