What Weight to Wrestle?

Should a HS kid wrestle at a weight that he would have a better chance at or should he move up OR down to wrestle in a spot that the coach needs him to fill.
Just looking for feedback!

I would tend to think that it would be the kids choice. I know that when I used to cut weight it was my decision, not the coaches. But I also knew where my team needed me in the line up.

If a team has a real shot of winning state I could see puting the team first to fill spots. I also feel a senior with a title shot should have first choice.

I believe it should be the kids choice.

BLT, can you give us a little more on the situation?

my son has walked around at about 170 pounds for football. His best friend and team mate is ranked in all class at 170. He has already started his planned to drop to at least 160. The coach now wants him to wrestle 182 or 195. The coach is trying to fill his roster as best as he can. Its a smaller 4a school and he can be varsity at any of these weights but he wants look towards state this year. Now I understand that 4a 160 is stacked. But we rather wrestle at 160 or 152 then give up all that weight and power 182 and 195.
We just thought it should be our choice but we also want to be a good team mate so...

Most kids will decide the weight they want to wrestle at. When it comes down to two wrestlers at the same weight, they wrestle for it. Better man fills that spot. Then the decision is where you can wrestle at and stay competitive. My son had the same choice 4 years ago at 189. No chance in beating Beard, but he found a spot at 285 and It just so happened he liked it there.

What do you think is more important later in life, being a good teammate and doing what's better for the team or only doing what is in an individual's own self interest?

You should try to do what is best for the team as long as it is not detrimental to the wrestler's health. If a wrestler can't make the next weight class down due to a natural growth pattern, then they should wrestle were they are comfortable and still be able to help the team score points. In a case of moving up two or three weight classes, that is a challenge. I would think that if you can move down and win any challenge thrown at you in practice, then you should earn that spot and someone else move up. Whatever the outcome is, best of luck this season.

Are those two different things?

Curtis,

Your wording on this question is loaded. You know better than me that wrestling is not football or roundball. In those team sports, they don't have individual champions. Later in life, if a wrestler had wrestled up for the sake of the team placing 8th vs. 11th at state and that wrestler was not on the podium, in my mind the upside was not worth the move. Later in life, a wrestler that landed on the podium and possibly secured an offer to help with his education while also scoring more points for his team will carry with them a lifetime accomplishment. There are exceptions of course with Dual Team championships or bumping up for single duals etc.

Well, Being that their is only one tournament that decides a state championship for the team, and individuals. The team will not do well at the tournament if the you are 2 and bbq. Honestly you have to go where you will have the most success, and score the most points for the team. Another thought is, can he make it down to 152? Has he ever cut weight before, and done it the right way? Does he realize the mental battle that cutting will have on him?

Don't worry about being a good teammate. You can be a good teammate in the practice room by how hard you practice. Wrestle at the weight that gives you the best chance to get on the podium. Unless your team wins state, its not a very big deal. I was on a team that took 3rd at state last year, and I was also in the state finals. It is a way better feeling to get on the podium then it is to stand in a group and be given a trophy that you don't even keep and will never see again.

Amen.

I think there is a balance to the team vs individual discussion. BOTH are important and should be determined on a case by case basis.

I will offer a counter perspective to KSwrestler103 and Chief...

I won an individual state championship in high school. The best our team ever finished was 2nd. One of my biggest regrets to this day was not being able to win the state team championship.

Neither perspective is right or wrong....just different.

Shawn Budke

There is a balance. This is is: Individual first, team second. Especially if your team is not a contender.

Shawn, Would you have chosen to place 2nd at state over 1st if your team would have gotten first instead of 2nd? Don't lie!!!

The greatest thing about wrestling is the wrestle off. The wrestler chooses where he wants to wrestle. He challenges the others and the best man gets the spot!! No coach favortism. No booster club involvement. It doesn't matter who your mommy or daddy is if you can't put up then you have to shut up. Beautiful isn't it!!

He can make the weight!
Like I said he hadalready started his drop.
I guess my question is... isn't there a rule that says you have to wrestle a certain number of matches at a weight in order to wrestle that weight at state?
He has no problem wrestling upper weights to fill spots at duels etc. Its just the end of the year that's our concern.

Bawoody
I hear what your saying...
He had Beard and Hicks and stepped up to 285 but IMO your boy is at a different level!
But then again its not fair cause I'm a fan!
Lol

Interesting sidenote: I've heard both Hagerty and Mayaab state ... they don't have wrestle-offs!

That is the one thing I DO NOT admire about them.

I honestly think that it depends on the kid. Wrestle off's is the easiest and most effective way to decide who the top guy is for High School, but for college sometimes the best way is to base it off of Tournament performances. Honestly all kids should wrestle the weight that they will best perform at. That is the way that you are going to score the most points for your team. You get the most out of an individual for his/her team. I do applaud guys that make sacrifices for their team though.

It is of little surprise that most on this forum would select Individual over Team! But I suggest that a bunch of team coaches would feel that team is more important!

Taking the Devil's Advocate perspective ... let's say a team member is an absolute drut; he slacks in practice, is a negative influence, and barely is meeting the academic standard. Another is a great team member, works hard in practice, and is a stellar student. In the wrestle-off the drut barely beats the great kid and is pompous in his celebration. Who would you rather have represent your team?

Intangibles factor in! I always remember the Scott City Team title without a single finalist!

More later ... I'm on my way to Iola for a MS meet!

One of the reason's I love wrestling is that the best man at each weight is your starter! No polotics No favorites! I saw to much of that in football and hated it. The best man at each weight is good for the team as well. IMO.

I have had kids do the sacrifice for the team thing each year i coached and have found success and failure in it. As a coach i am all about the team thing, but as an athlete i can see the individual aspect.

I don't think that it is as simple as "individual over team". However, if you don't look out for you kid, who will? I also know that cutting down to weight doesn't always work out. My senior year, I cut down and won a closely contested wrestle-off which led to a mediocre season for me and a standout season for my teammate who bumped up a weight class. Go figure? I know it couldn't have been because I was mediocre and he went on to wrestle at Fort Hays! Sometimes matchups benefit you and sometimes they bite you in the butt, and still other times they do both! Confused yet?

Did Drut violate any team rules? Did he meet all of the requirements to be a participant? Then I want him to be on my team and we will address the rest. If he is so bad that he violates the level of decorum that you seek then make the rules and policies strict enough to deal with drut by removing him from the room. That would put the onus on Drut to decide his future not Coach Randy. Use a code of conduct to eliminate the druts and let super good kid know that he needs to work harder or that he might have to go up or down a weight class.

I really don't find anything fascinating about a team that wins without a title winner. So they had a deep line up of average Joes? So what. I would rather see three D1 wrestlers than 14 4,5,6 placers.

Honestly, the methodology we use to call a team the best is super flawed. We should not keep team scores at our state tournaments (Wisconsin and others do not) and best team should be determined by a dual event. Take the regional champs and runner ups and have a dual tournament to see who the best team is. You have a full line up at regionals but at individual state you do not. Coaching strategy and the entire line up come into play then. Individual State is about INDIVIDUAL champions. If you don't crown one then you have failed create a champion and it is laughable that you call yourself the best team.

That's one solid post!

Disclaimer:

I am personal friends with Cokeley.

Will,

I absolutely agree with you on the comment you made (pasted below)....

Honestly, the methodology we use to call a team the best is super flawed. We should not keep team scores at our state tournaments (Wisconsin and others do not) and best team should be determined by a dual event. Take the regional champs and runner ups and have a dual tournament to see who the best team is. You have a full line up at regionals but at individual state you do not. Coaching strategy and the entire line up come into play then. Individual State is about INDIVIDUAL champions. If you don't crown one then you have failed create a champion and it is laughable that you call yourself the best team.

Now to answer your question from an earlier post....

Yes, I would trade my individual state championship for a team state championship and I am not lying. Maybe it is because I am getting old and sentimental but the friendships our team created still last to this day. It is the one thing that we all regret from our high school days. I would personally have enjoyed sharing a state championship and all that goes with it with my buddies than the individual one.

The other point is that I did choke in the championship twice. Finished second my junior and senior years. I regret that but not near as much as not winning the state championship as a team.

As a side note for those that think this wrestling sport is an individual sport.....I challenge anyone to provide an example of a champion from any tournament (kids novice, open, high school, etc) that won it all by themselves. You can't do it. In order to win an individual state championship you have to have a good team and good practice partners. Without that you can't win a championship. Heck, how many kids do we see club hop so they can get better partners, not to mention change high schools?

Therefore, I have a hard time supporting the idea that wrestling is a pure individual sport. I do agree it would be great to have a dual team state championship. By the way, this individual sport idea is what is killing wrestling. It is much easier to generate excitement for the sport if we do more duals. However, this is for another topic.

Shawn Budke

So what team was Muhamad Ali on? John McEnroe? If you are on a "team" you don't club hop. Those were individuals motivated by their individual desire to have their individual hand held high in the air. Your arguement is flawed. You step out on the mat alone even if you don't prepare alone. It is MUCH different than a team sport where individuals are an integral part of the goals that have to be met to obtain victory. No matter how great Walter Payton was he could not win a football game alone. Every wrestler that wins or loses does so ALONE.

You are wrong about what is killing the sport. You are talking about making something spectator friendly. MMA and UFC are NOT team sports but they are spectator friendly. What is killing our sport? The lack of the ability to generate television revenue at the NCAA and Olympic level. Our sport is healthy as ever at the HS level and below.

If you are willing to trade your individual state championship medal for a silver so your high school could have state championship trophy then the US Army did a really good job of brain washing you. I still don't believe you. ;-)

Will,

We will always disagree on this subject but that doesn't make my argument flawed. You may not agree with my perspective and that is ok. The difference we are talking about is how to define teams. Yes the team aspect of wrestling is a lot different than the team aspect of a traditional team sport such as football, baseball, etc. However, it does take a team to create an individual champion. Ali and McEnroe are not good examples for your argument because those sports do not have a team aspect to it like wrestling does.

Now for the revenue piece....why can't we generate revenue??? One of the reasons is because the common person has a very hard time understanding the scoring of an individual match. It is much easier to understand the scoring of a dual match. By promoting this concept then the common person (not an experienced wrestling fan) can learn to enjoy the sport and cheer for their team. As they are doing this they then will learn the intricacies of an individual match. The key is getting the emotional excitement generated from the beginning. This is much easier to do in a dual concept than an individual tournament concept.

By the way UFC is just a brand of MMA so it is one in the same. It is fan friendly because the general population gets excitment from watching 2 guys try to beat each other. There is an aspect of violence to it.

The Army has nothing to do with my brainwashing. I would submit that I loved the Army because of the team aspect that I learned from wrestling along with the physical toughness, mental toughness, discipline, etc. That is why you see a lot of wrestlers join the different services.

Of course the coaches would choose Team success over an individual success for the simple reason that is what is in THEIR best interest! What looks better on the resume? I certainly don’t fault them for this selfish approach because that is exactly what their job is, and how their success is judged. The fact is that Team success is much more important to coaches then it is to the vast majority of wrestlers because their primary goal is different.

Their is REALLY not team aspect to an individual tournament. The clear motivation is for an individual to win all of their matches. You pointed out that a wrestler could not prepare without a team. Neither could Ali or Johhny Mc. They had to prepare with others just like all wrestlers do. How are these NOT good examples based on your statement? It is a valid comparison from the angle you approached.

Clubs are not teams either. They prepare together and then they are motivated to win individually. Successful wrestlers are self motivated and not team motivated. The Olympic "Team" is just a collection of the most motivated and prepared individuals assembled to travel together and compete as individuals. This sport is built on a foundation of individual motivation. Shawn, you cannot argue that just because you are an outlier and would give up your Gold Medal for a team championship. (I still don't believe you! )

Wrestling tried to promote the team concept commercially a few years ago with the Real Pro series. It didn't catch on.

Chief,

I suppose I muddied the waters a little bit with these two statements. We all know that wrestlers still adjust their weight to get to where they want to be, or assume they need to be. The point I was trying to make is that if the wrestler chooses to go down in weight, and they have the extra room to do it in a healthy manner, then I don't have an issue with it. If they don't have the extra girth to shed and still try to drop, they should reconsider. From my personal experience, they have a good chance to do just as well if not better if they stay at the weight their body is built for.

What is killing our sport is parents that want their kids to go to a week or two of practice, and if they don't win their first tourney, or their kid comes home and says it is "too hard", then they let them quit..........

At the end of the day, after a tourney, it’s you and your kid. You are either there to enjoy his/her success or to help console them. You do what is right for your kid. Your kid being at the weight that is right for him will do all you can be expected to do from a team standpoint. Any coach that asks more, is looking at it from an individual standpoint - HIS as Steve just stated. Remember the coach always has next year, the individual wrestler may not.

In practice this may be a team sport in terms of helping to prepare practice partners and so on. But once on the mat it is truly individual - one on one - with the help of 2 coaches.

Will has been right on this for years.

BLUF: We will have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't think it is as black and white as a right or wrong answer. The fact is that high school and college wrestling in its current format is a mixture of an individual participant sport with a team aspect.

I don't think you can use the Olympics as a comparison. Better comparison's are looking at swim teams, golf teams, track teams, etc. Do coaches move kids around in those different events in order to help the team.....absolutely. No different than wrestling.

I think we have to be really careful promoting this as an individual sport. With the cutbacks we are getting ready to see (or already seeing) in the budgets for schools, we are setting ourselves up for failure. It is very easy to cut sports that are individual sports and do not promote a team aspect or the school. Just my observation.

As far as the Real Pro Wrestling.....you prove my point exactly! Real Pro Wrestling failed because it didn't promote the team aspect. It focused on individuals wrestling at their weights and the programming had the weights wrestling at one showing. I think if they would have used a dual format they would have been more successful. Why??? Because learning about wrestling and all of its intricacies takes time and quite frankly given the level of competition RPW had, it can be boring. Having said that, if it was a dual format then the new fan can understand the scoring easier and they can get excited about their team. Trust me, we still have the poster of the team that Erik Akin was on. We really wanted to see this succeed.

Shawn Budke

Shawn, I think that you are the most logical person here. I appreciate your input and thoughts on this topic. In my opinion, it is rock solid.

Now, to answer the first question. You should wrestle at the weight that your coach tells you to wrestle. It's really not our call. It's his.

When you are in the minority and you feel that you are logical, you are really illogical. The day I see 28 guys on the mat going at it I will buy into this team stuff. I would hate to be the coach that told this dad that his wrestler had to wrestle a weight he didn't want to wrestle, if he had established he could make that weight conforming to the rules and beaten all of the competitors at that weight. This is the beauty of the sport. Leave the politics out of this sport. PLEASE! Any coach who puts his own personal goals ahead of any of his wrestlers is NOT a good coach.

William G. McAdoo said "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument." I have been trying to find out but I haven't found proof that he said this while discussing the prepostorous pronouncement that two men competing for one prize were actually motivated more by their team than their own personal cause... Draw your own conclusions...

What weight to wrestle?

Not 132 at Gardner Invitational

Doug747 you and I agree on your last post. Quitters do kill the sport. If my kid signs up for something, he's gonna finish it. In a team concept, your team expects you to fulfill your spot or weight class. When you get mad and quit, you let the team down almost as much as you do yourself.

I would have to take umbrage with the idea that 14 4th, 5th and 6th placers are average Joes. I think that would show that you coach the whole room and not just the guys that are pretty darn good before the coaching occurs. Having 3 D1 wrestlers is an anomaly in most cases; otherwise, having 3 D1 wrestlers only occurs when you are able to bring wrestlers in to your program from other programs in the state. Most high school teams don't have that luxury.

I do agree about winning your spot on the team, though. If you win your spot, you win your spot--even if a freshman beats a senior--the best guy, as long as he follows the rules, wins the spot.

There is nothing laughable about a team that wins a championship without a champion. Especially if they are bringing a ton of wrestlers and placing them all, then they are most likely the best team. Our idea of a team is definitely different, but our schools have very different circumstances as well.

Tate Thompson

Well said thompson!

The point of a team is having everyone count from top to bottom everyone has a chance to contribute not just Your so called studs. Having 3 state champions with no help doesn't make you a great team. Having everyone work together and help each other and also move weight to make your team better will make a true team champion.

When you are in the minority and you feel that you are logical, you are really illogical. The day I see 28 guys on the mat going at it I will buy into this team stuff. I would hate to be the coach that told this dad that his wrestler had to wrestle a weight he didn't want to wrestle, if he had established he could make that weight conforming to the rules and beaten all of the competitors at that weight. This is the beauty of the sport. Leave the politics out of this sport. PLEASE! Any coach who puts his own personal goals ahead of any of his wrestlers is NOT a good coach.
_________________________
Will Cokeley


Ouch! Now I know why you told me it was time to get out of coaching. I've moved kids around to fill lineups, win duals, have great matchups for all of my 36 years of coaching. I have always emphasised TEAM to my kids in the dual setting and it carries over to the tournaments. My wrestlers knew that they may be moved up to fill a void, or for a specific matchup that might save team points in order to win the dual. Have I had kids upset or even dad's upset, you bet and I'd do it again because of what it teaches kids.

One of the things I admire most about this sport is that it teaches life lessons better than any other sport. In life you learn that sacrifice is necessary to achieve something worthwhile. We lose weight to achieve a goal of maybe making the team, getting to a weight where we can be successful or because that is where the team needs you and you are the best candidate to handle it. In a dual, I taught kids that they may have to sacrifice their weight and move up if the team could benefit from the move and win the dual. Sometimes that meant giving up an individual win and wrestling a match where you try not to give the opponent bonus points in a loss. Every team member understood the sacrifice their team member made for THEM. Some of the most exciting matches I've coached over the years was when an individual was willing to sacrifice in those very circumstances and battle his heart out in a losing cause only to preserve a victory for his Team (NOT THE COACH). What you learn and what you gain from these situations is all relative to what the individual has been taught. I still think its a Team Sport based on Individual performances.

What did it teach the kids that loss because you made them "fill a void" when they might have been able to win at their original weight? The thing about wrestling is even in team duals the only kids that are happy with the team win are the ones that got their hand raised. The one's that lost are still beating them selves up for losing. You can look at from what ever way you want but when it comes down to it wrestling is all about the individual. That's how it has been and that's how it will always be.

"True team champion" from scoring points in an individual tournament where some teams don't have their entire lineup where others do. A tournament where there were four different qualifying tournaments with four different sets of full teams but the results from that individual tournament leave most teams with just a fraction of their line up.

In 2008 SJA finished 25th in the team standings. Ahead of 35 other 4A teams with just one guy scoring points. I am pretty sure that SJA would not have been able to beat even half of those teams in a dual.

Coach Alley, I agree with your approach to duals but would you ever tell a kid he couldn't qualify and compete at state in the weight class he would do best in for the sake of putting an inferior wrestler in for the HOPE of scoring more points at the state tournament? That is real issue I am addressing. I already stated that a dual team state would be a real team event and then the coach's strategy is important.

I just wonder how many of teams that have won a title at INDIVIDUAL state but wouldn't have won dual state?

I didn't say that 3 state champs would be a better team. I said I would rather watch a team with three state champs than 14 5th and 6th placers. There is a huge talent gap between 1st and 5th/6th.

One last question, what is a "so called stud"?

I have never heard a HS wrestler say, when asked about his wrestling performance, say I lost my match but it is okay because I saved some points and my team won the dual because of it. MOTIVATION is direction and intensity. You are going to have a hard time with human nature convincing young men to lose when they could have won just so a team could win a dual. You are better off having all of your wrestlers focused on winning their matches at the weight they earned the right to wrestle.

What are you teaching a kid? "I am the coach. I am the authority and you have no right to challenge my decision. I decide what is most important and your opinion does not matter! I am the almighty coach, bow to me!" I am certainly happy that I have never dealt with a coach like that. It wouldn't have been pretty.

I am going to have to say it is more logically an individual sport where individual performances determine a team score.

There are times that moving a wrestler or two around in a dual can be a great thing. We had a wrestler bump up a weight for a dual last year to try to steal some team points because their weight class was vacated by the other team and we had another wrestler who could step in for the 6 points. Our wrestler looked quite a bit smaller than his opponent but pulled off a 4-0 win.

The wrestler he beat is preseason ranked in Class 6A this year and may be a wrestler he sees early in the season. The match gave this wrestler additional confidence which took him a long way last year, so I believe that it was a good thing for both him and for his team.

By the way, someone has infiltrated the Kansas Wrestling website and put a bunch of bizarre posts on here. We need the monitors/facilitators to hunt this rogue poster down and eliminate them from the site. Thank you.

[quote=Cokeley.

I have never heard a HS wrestler say, when asked about his wrestling performance, say I lost my match but it is okay because I saved some points and my team won the dual because of it. MOTIVATION is direction and intensity. You are going to have a hard time with human nature convincing young men to lose when they could have won just so a team could win a dual. You are better off having all of your wrestlers focused on winning their matches at the weight they earned the right to wrestle.

What are you teaching a kid? "I am the coach. I am the authority and you have no right to challenge my decision. I decide what is most important and your opinion does not matter! I am the almighty coach, bow to me!" I am certainly happy that I have never dealt with a coach like that. It wouldn't have been pretty.

I am going to have to say it is more logically an individual sport where individual performances determine a team score. [/quote]

I think you hit the key word "Teach". From the beginning of the season, we taught the importance of the team. We taught them that there will be times in life that things don't always seem fair but you do them for a reason. You ever had a boss tell you to do something you didn't want to do? Have you ever had the opportunity to help someone else knowing that is might actually set you back temporairly? Those are decisions we or at least I have dealt with most of my adult life and I tried to explain that to my athletes. Would I ever sacrifice their position in a tournament, no way, but you would be amazed how much of that team attitude comes out even in a tournament. The carry over is having a kid strive for the bonus win to get the extra team points, when he had the match won and could of just sat back and say "what do I care, I'm winning my match."

When you get kids thinking about "Team" you will have a team. Hopefully, my former wrestlers would agree that they did understand authority, respect and discipline, but their respect came from what they were being taught not because of a position I held. They realized if they were being moved in a weight class it was because I had confidence in them to do a job that no one else on the team could fulfill as well as them. They didn't always like their assignment at the time but if they accepted the challenge, I feel they became stronger because of it. I think Shawn related many of the same points when he talked about his Army "brainwashing" as you called it.

Quagmire,

I have to disagree with you on this comment.....

"The thing about wrestling is even in team duals the only kids that are happy with the team win are the ones that got their hand raised. The one's that lost are still beating them selves up for losing."

I have observed and been a part of duals where kids that didn't give up the pin, staved off being tech falled, or only lost by 7 pts vice 8 pts have been the hero's of the match. Why: Because they saved critical team points.

Likewise I have had my had raised and won the match and felt like crap because I should have pinned my opponent or scored more team points and we lost as a team.

Will: I understand your perspective given the following post....

" "True team champion" from scoring points in an individual tournament where some teams don't have their entire lineup where others do. A tournament where there were four different qualifying tournaments with four different sets of full teams but the results from that individual tournament leave most teams with just a fraction of their line up.

In 2008 SJA finished 25th in the team standings. Ahead of 35 other 4A teams with just one guy scoring points. I am pretty sure that SJA would not have been able to beat even half of those teams in a dual.

Coach Alley, I agree with your approach to duals but would you ever tell a kid he couldn't qualify and compete at state in the weight class he would do best in for the sake of putting an inferior wrestler in for the HOPE of scoring more points at the state tournament? That is real issue I am addressing. I already stated that a dual team state would be a real team event and then the coach's strategy is important.

I just wonder how many of teams that have won a title at INDIVIDUAL state but wouldn't have won dual state?

I didn't say that 3 state champs would be a better team. I said I would rather watch a team with three state champs than 14 5th and 6th placers. There is a huge talent gap between 1st and 5th/6th.

One last question, what is a "so called stud"?"

The problem with this argument is that the real issue in your example assumes that the methodolgy we use to determine team champions is correct. I would argue that the way we do it in high school and college is not the best way to actually determine a team championship. We would be better off using a dual format to determine a team championship.

As for one of your earlier posts where you mentioned winning an argument with someone that is ignorant or words to that affect....not sure if that was a personal shot or not. I will assume it isn't because we are friends but just remember that one's perception of ignorance and logic depends on one's perspective.

Shawn Budke

Coach Alley,
That is why your teams were so successful. I would imagine the majority if not all of your kids respected and looked up to you. They not only became better wrestlers but also became better people. I love winning as much as the next guy, but here is a heads up for some of you. Not every wrestler has D1 aspirations! Some want to be part of a team and just go compete. They still work their tails off, but they are a wrestler from November through February. With that said, I will have this same situation this year. I will have several kids in the same weight. When we go to tournaments, I will put those kids in brackets that will allow us to score the most points. When we go to a dual tournament I will put them in the weight that gives us the best opportunity to win the dual. However, when we go to the regional tournament whoever wins the wrestle off for that weight will wrestle that weight and the other kid will bump up.

Bingo!

Is there a rule that says you have to wrestle a certain percent of your matches in order to wrestle that weight for state?

NO

“Any wrestler competing in the regional tournament must have a minimum of 1/2 of their total regularly scheduled school team competition weigh-ins at their certified weight class in order to be eligible for participation in that certification weight class in the state tournament series."

http://www.kshsaa.org/Publications/Wrestling.pdf

Or they can move up a weight class. It is set up so that you cannot just drop for regionals and state. Moving up is not an issue.

Clarification question: What if a wrestler is injured and misses competition until january. Is there a minimum number of matches he must wrestle to be elgible for regionals? Half of the teams total matches for the year meaning basically all the rest at the certified weight?

Thanks
t

No minimum number of matches. Just at least half of that wrestler's weigh-ins. So if he has just two weigh-ins before regionals, one of them have to be at his certified weight in order for him to be eligible to wrestle at that certified weight. Moving up weight is fine.

late to the convo but love it.

couple things:

Just because you win your wrestle off does not guarantee you a spot. I have seen wrestlers who have lost their spot and won a wrestle off. I have seen and heard of the best coaches in our nation doing this. Wrestle off is one thing, wrestlers still need to compete. I would hope my coaches focus was on competition and not practice. "PRACTICE"

Moving and sliding a line-up to win a dual does build character for wrestlers. Just because your bumping and sliding does not mean the "FOCUS" was changed from winning to losing. Your teaching kids to win as a team. I would also hope your individual wrestler isn't walking on the mat thinking he is going to lose. I would also hope one of my better wrestlers would be willing to move, even if it meant having a tougher match. Pushing yourself is a good thing!

This same team concept can be said for an individual on the back side of the state bracket, wrestling his A$$ off for the team, because they need his points to win a state title. You can't tell me being on the TEAM is not motivating the indivual wrestler. I have been on backsides of brackets before and won matches with my motivation being "not going to let the team down".

Bumping and sliding for line-up at State. I hope whomever is coaching has good enough communication with the wrestlers and the wrestlers parents so everyone can come to a decision that is agreed upon. 99.9% of the time an individual wrestler at their ideal weight will help the team at state. As state is not a dual but a tournament.

Last:

If you are a wrestler not bying into the TEAM. Your missing out.

T-Together
E-Everyone
A-Achieves
M-More

Bump and slide, that is a pretty good analogy. When it comes to State, it is a tournament and you go with your best line up at the weight they should be wrestling. In duals, I have really enjoyed the "bump and slide". Wrestlers get to see competition that they won't see in the post season matches, and get to evaluate their skill against a quality, yet heavier opponent.

Back when I drank a lot of whiskey, I did the bump and slide at the Neon Cactus on W. 13th.........

The last time I did the bump and slide, we had an ice storm and I fell against my car door and slid down the drive way. It sounds like you had a lot more fun.

Very interesting how this thread morphed from "What weight to wrestle?" to "Is wrestling a team or individual sport?". Just when you thought it was dead or wished it was dead, it rises from the ashes like the Phoenix.

I will say one of the great things about wrestling is that it is the ultimate individual/team sport. You get to experience the best of both worlds.

There have been a lot of great comments about this giving merit to both lines of thought. I am certainly not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone or any comments that have been made. But honestly, in my opinion which has been developed over almost 50 years in wrestling as a little league, high school and college wrestler and 20 years as a high school head coach in two different states at four very different school districts and thus programs as well as junior high and little league coach, and now as a father/coach exclusively, WRESTLING HAS BEEN, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE AN INDIVIDUAL SPORT. I really believe that this is the bottom line and in most cases we should do what is best for the individual first.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that a kid shouldn't make sacrifices for the team or be bumped from time to time when it is appropriate. In my experiences I have certainly done it more than once. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it produced a positive response and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it pissed the H.... out of a kid or a parent. Sometimes it made a kid feel good and sometimes it made a kid feel like crap. I did things early in my career that I would never do now. When I look back now and think about times when I compromised an individual’s well being for a dual victory, I realize I was just being selfish, being a selfish coach looking for another win and I was wrong. A kid did his job, earned his spot and made weight and shouldn't be rewarded by having to bump up and wrestle a bigger kid and maybe take a loss. With the difference in weight alone and perhaps weight cutting that he has experienced it is not a level playing field for him and that is certainly not wrestling. A coach can feel, or should be able to, when a kid is uncomfortable with a bump and should never make him suffer unnecessary anxiety and possible demoralization for another win on the coach’s record. I am not disagreeing with Alley at all, I certainly respect him, his philosophy and his accomplishments. I do agree that there are wonderful lessons to be learned by taking one for the team and sometimes the team can elevate the individuals, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right move always. If a kid is genuinely excited about this wonderful opportunity that a coach has provided him then go for it. A kid should never be made to feel bad though ever for not wanting that. I could see bumping as appropriate for a dual state tournament but not necessarily for just some dual or even some dual tournament or traditional tournament. Never would it be acceptable for regional and subsequently state unless that is really, really, really what the kid wants. I know some coaches that don't care about dual wins at all, they just care about state.

I like the comments about wrestling needs the team concept to survive. It makes sense at some levels. This certainly could apply to college, but does not apply at all to high school wrestling or lower. High school wrestling is doing well and is 6th in participation and 5th in spectator participation and I don't believe it will ever go away. I would be much more worried about gymnastics, tennis, golf, swimming, bowling, lacrosse, hockey, etc. Wrestling is Man's oldest sport. It is one of the original three Olympic sports and has been contested in every Olympic game. It is the first sport mentioned in the Bible and in literatures first piece, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Virtually every country on the planet has an Olympic team and most now have a women's team. It has been one of the staples for every military program and endeavor since the Dawn of Humanity. Thirteen different Presidents credit their success to wrestling. I could go on and on about Angels, Kings, Movie Stars, CEOs, Politicians, Professional FB players and of course MMA competitors.

As far as college, it is a little different I know. You are being "paid" in most instances by the school/team that you represent. But it is still an individual sport and mainly promoted that way. One of the keys to "saving" it or at least keeping the program numbers up in my mind is creating women's teams, not necessarily promoting a "we are a team sport" mentality. Every program that is catching heat over Title IX, etc. just needs to start a women's team, although I know that is easier said than done, and you will make everyone happy.

We must keep in mind that most kids gravitate to wrestling because of the individual aspects. They are tired of being on a team with individuals and variables that they cannot control. They are tired of losing because someone else didn't do their job. They are tired of being selected or not selected because of subjectivity. They are tired of not being recognized and not getting credit for their efforts. ALMOST ALL KIDS COME TO WRESTLING BECAUSE IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL SPORT, it always has been, since the Dawn of Humanity. Who are we to change that?

I remember way back to my first head coaching job and how excited I was that my Dad, a fifty year D1 recruiter starting with Roderick, was going to come to my practice and tell me what a great job I was doing. I had a great practice, it was awesome. I was going to get rave reviews, I couldn't wait to hear the great news and how proud my dad was. So I thought. Boy was I a rookie. He told me I was working hard, gave great effort and had good intent but my program was broken. He told me two things specifically, "you work out with the kids way too much when you should be coaching them" and "you focus way too much on the team concept and not enough on the individuals". I was sure he was wrong. I was sure that the "whole was indeed greater than the sum of the parts" I said, "Dad if the team does well, the individuals will succeed", I was sure I was right. He said "Son, if the individuals succeed, the team will take care of itself". "Now quit being selfish and take care of the individuals that have given their lives to you."

Yes, we as coaches heavily promote the team concept and want to win duals because when the team "wins", we "win". We are also told sometimes that is our job and it seems natural. As a side note, another reason we promote the whole team concept is because coaching a team is much easier, many can do that. Sometimes you do it and you don't even realize it. Like I said, it comes naturally. Coaching individuals is very difficult. It is easy to put together a game plan to elevate a team. It is much more difficult to put together individual game plans to elevate all the individuals. For me it was always much easier "coaching" a team. It was much more difficult "coaching" individuals. This is the test of a great high school coach. College coaches have solved the problem by having a bunch of different sized graduate assistants. We don't have that luxury in high school, at least at most schools. And the truth is we really do win when individuals win and the team doesn't but it just doesn't feel like it and it is certainly not perceived that way by the public. But remember, it is perceived that way by that kid and his parents.

Sounds good anyway.

X, you have got to quit drinking those 5 hour energy drinks............The Epic of Gilgamesh? WTH is that? I must have missed school that day.....

Now that I'm done hanging sh*t on you, it was a good post. One of the few camps I went to as a youngster, was one of Myron Rodericks camps. I still remember him showing the "gotcha" move on one of his assistants............We couldn't get away with that today.

I concur with the young Mr. Eck. This is probably X's best post. BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh They don't teach that stuff in Andale on any day! Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic poem from Mesopotamia and is among the earliest known works of literature.

I too went to Roderick's Wrestling Camp. He called that move the "ROTATOR". He also offered a tuition refund to anyone that could take him down. Everyone always pulled his comb over down. Good stuff. I have lots of good stories from my trips to Stillwater!

Jack and Jill was about all the "fine arts" we wanted , or needed, at Andale..............

I'm glad you hung some s... on me doug747, I deserved it although I have seen a lot of posts over the years much longer. I was actually hoping for more s... though. I was really hoping for some controversy over my post but no takers. I guess that I am just not as informative, interesting or engaging as Will.

As for the 5 hour energy drink thing, no chance of that, that is just good old fashioned caffeine in coffee which also is my #1 vice I might add. Nothing new there, just basically an everyday thing for me, wired and strung out from sun up to sun down.

Now as for the Epic of Gilgamesh that you hadn't heard of, I completely understand. If I learned about that in school, I don't remember or I wasn't paying attention when they went over it. I didn't know about that until after I became a coach and I have rode that ever since.



I don't necessarily think its my best post Will but I thought it was pretty good. It was definitely honest and accurate.

I too was raised on the Roderick camp as you two might imagine. Growing up in Stillwater, you didn't have a choice if you were a wrestler. I can remember some epic matches in practice between Roderick and Dave Martin current OState Admin and past D1 champ. Roderick's son and Chesbro's son were team mates of mine at Stillwater High. The comb over definitely brings back memories. My dad has one of those too. I thought about it also but decided that wasn't for me and just shaved the horseshoe off.

It really was an outstanding post. Very well said!!!

Well Said X. Last year I had a similar situation with my son. In a 6 team dual, my son was asked to wrestle up a weight on the last match of the day. He said he really didn't want to. He asked what I thought, I said he should look at it as an opportunity. The wrestler was on the same team as a 2 time state champ, when their coach said to our coach, "sure we will go up and wrestle that weight." Their coach asked, "Are you sure? This kid gives the champ all he can handle in practice." We pinned the kid in the second period. OPPORTUNITY. I think it just depends on the situation.

I think there's a big difference from moving around for a duel here and a duel there but to ask a kid who easily makes 170 or could even do 160 to fill spots at either 182 or 195 just doesn't seem like the wrestlers best interest are being considered.
In my opinion that's a lot of weight and size to give!
But we have been informed that we will be wrestling 182 for duels and 170 for some tournaments.

Seems like you guys have a solid kid at 170 already. Your boy wrestling 160 sounds like the better solution to me. In a dual your boy could wrestle 160 or 170 and the 170 lber could go 170 or 182. Maybe I'm way off as I do not know the team or other kids around.

Why does your boy have to be the one when others can do the same?

Kinda sounds like the real questions is "team player" or not?