What is Stalling? Calling all Referees....

If the bottom guy is covering up and clearly just trying not to get turned......who gets the stalling call? Top man for not being able to turn him? or bottom guy for failure to initiate any moves that could possibly result in him getting out of position and risking backpoints?

Once the top man gets warned for stalling and gives up a point, its amazing how the bottom guy is always revived with a sudden burst of energy and sometimes able to escape. But is it really fair to penalize the top man in this situation if he is doing a good job of riding and occasionally working out to the side to try a pinning combination?

If he's off the hips and working to turn the bottom wrestler with a variety of moves (ie. not just a 2on1 or a half w/ a spiral ride) then it should be the bottom guy pretty plain and simple.

The harder thing to call is when the top man has a 2on1 and doesn't come off the hips but keeps taking the bottom man to his shoulder's but they don't break 90 (almost to NF criteria), who then is stalling? Is it stalling?

If he doesnt come off of the hips it is stalling. If he came off of the hips, that may be all he needed to do to turn the bottom man.

So Alex....you're telling me that the 2-on-1 is not a pinning combination? And you claim to be from western kansas!!

doesn't matter whether it is a pinning combo or not, the top man has to come off the hips.

each referee calls stalling different, the important thing to know is when you get warned............ change what you are doing or not doing.

Nobody in kansas calls stalling anyway. kids could probably ride the hips and get away with it in 99% of time.

You are saying if they are out to the side and running a spiral (half, claw, whatever) to the head; that is stalling? I've rarely (not sure if I've ever seen it called prior to this weekend in Salina) seen this called, even at the college level.

I could understand that position if he was behind and covering hips, but no when he's out to the side/front working for the turn.

Two reasons they wont call it. 1) They dont understand what stalling is. 2) They are afraid to make the call, just plain and simply SCARED!

I know this is the high school page, but I was hoping this would come up sometime. At Salina this past weekend, I seen many wrestlers lacing the ankle, and half @$$ trying to run a 3/4 nelson. The bottom kid would flatten out to avoid this, the top wrestler would go back to the hips, the bottom wrestler would build back up, and the top wrestler would again half @$$ try a 3/4 nelson, and this went on for 2/1/2 periods. According to the rule, the top wrestler is moving off of the hips, and the bottom wreslter is avoiding gettign turned, but yet continued to keep building a base, eventhough the top wreslter never attempted to really turn him, just tried to look busy. Is this stalling? I wouldnt want to be the official making the call on either wrestler, becuase someone is going to jump all over you for calling their wrestler for stalling.

AGREED!

Avoiding to get turned is stalling. If your not trying to be offensive - you are stalling. sounds like you need some work on bottom position.

My experience is the calling of stalling changes as we get into regionals and state.

Suddenly- warnings abound - but during the year, you have to be running away from the guy to get a stalling call or the officail waits until the last 2 seconds of the match with the first warning.

Call it quick and make it stick. All year long.


Heavy Heights - OMG It has come down to who ever wins the toss gets the win in the last OT. Call them both for stalling and put a fire to their feet to make some offense.

I agree that both guys need to be offensive, but just hanging on the head of the bottom guy, and keeping the ankle laced for 2 or more periods, and winning the match 2-0, with the initial take down, and then taking top when it is your choice, and riding the ankle again, I dont see this as being offesive either. But on the other had, I agree the bottom wreslter needs to light a fire under his butt and start trying things to get out. I am not referencing any particular match with this, I just have seen this with multiple matches over the year, and seen many of these at Salina. I would not have an issue if both wrestlers got dinged for stalling as niether of them are really working offesive moves.

I did see more stalling calls in Garden City this past weekend then I have all year.

Stalling calls are something that High School officials have a hard time making consistanty. Now look at colligate officials and they make the call much more consistantly. Any ideas why? Does anyone think this correlates with the consistancy of stalemate calls? THis keeps the action going. I have always felt that stalling is a call that has been treated as a judgement call and not a rule book call. It is defined pretty clearly. The biggest mistake made at the high school level is the fact that it is not called consitantly until the end of the season and at the end of matches.

Perhaps stalling in the neutral position, but certainly NOT in the offensive wrestler position. In fact you can actually earn a point in college for "riding" which at the high school level is often classified as stalling. In my opinion stalling isn't called as consistently at the high school level, because each official sees things a little differently than others. In the western part of the state they believe that running a 2 on 1 and attempting a tilt every 15-25 seconds means they are working for a fall, whereas those on the eastern part of the state expect the top man to work off the hips. And that is not to suggest fault with wrestlers or coaches regardless of situation, it is simply the style of wrestling that has been allowed.

In may be of interest for people to realize that the NFHS Wrestling Rule book does NOT mention a stipulation of the offensive wrestler moving off of his opponents hips. You simply won't find it in writing on the rules book. This however is the metric that many officials across the state use to judge stalling, and frankly as long as that is consistant among officials everywhere, then it shouldn't really be a controversial situation.

The reason why people perceive differences in the way stalling is called in the post season is because different officials from different parts of the state referee those tournaments whereas during the regular season it is typical the same group of officials refereeing the same tournament.

"The reason why people perceive differences in the way stalling is called in the post season is because different officials from different parts of the state referee those tournaments whereas during the regular season it is typical the same group of officials refereeing the same tournament."

we see the same officials in 6a. It has more to do with the urgency of the moment.

Yes, in college you get a point for riding but the refs are still making the top guy work. They call stalling in the top and bottom position all the time. To force the action. Collegiate refs are also pretty quick to call a stalemate if no action is taking place by both parties. I don't think anybody is saying that riding is stalling as it is important for every wrestler to be able to do. If your not working then you are stalling.

Quicker stalemate calls would also be nice to see.

Joe, if he is SPIRAL RIDING (ie. just riding) and not really attempting to turn the bottom wrestler he is stalling just as he would be if he were riding parallel (ie. covering the hips).

Covering the hips was the wrong language to use when I first worded the response, the better response would be if he was riding parallel.

You have to be physically working to turn the opponent while at the same time not preventing the other wrestler from attempting to improve his position if that makes any sense.

Remember I'm just one of many opinions and not necessarily right, and probably wrong but willing to share some insight.

Alex

The worse call in wrestling is the double stall call. Absolutely ridiculous.

I disagree....its a BRILLIANT CALL. Should be used more, especially with the Heavy Weights.

It's a decent tool to use, especially after hitting them both, then bringing them to the center of the mat and telling them the next one to back up is getting hit for stalling. Suddenly they become alive.

On that note I had an official in HS that hit a couple heavies early in the OT like 10 seconds in, stopped the match and took them directly to the ultimate tie-breaker. Interesting to say the least...

Pick a guy. One is always worse than the other. You are just setting yourself up for determining the winner of a match, especially at 285. I saw the Derby finals ended in OT by this very situation. Double stall in first. Decided the BC guy was stalling more in OT and that was it. No fan wants to see a match ended that way but maybe the mom!

So they are both Stalling, but penalize only one? I dont think that is the right call. If they are both Stalling they should both be penalized. This does not only happen in the heavyweights, it also happens at any weight when two good wrestlers are afraid to lose and they both clam up and wont wrestle. Then its a good call to get them both to open up.

I have seen this also. Makes sense. if you are not going to wrestle on the feet move to the second ot period.

Will, It is not deciding the match. It is raising the bar. It is a far better way to go than letting who ever wins the coin flip score an escape and win choice in the final ot.

I have a real probablem with a ref stopping the first overtime short to move to the second and third. So the 2 wrestlers didn't wrestle for 50 seconds? How is this ethical? Can anyone point out in the rule book where this is allowed?

As I see it, the issue is when the ref has allowed the pushing and dancing to go on too long and then he feels he needs to act so he hits both of them. Here's a thought, in the first period after 15 - 20 seconds of non-action call a stalemate. Take the wrestlers to the center and give them a quick warning and then follow through.

I wish I would of gotten the name of the referee who officiated the varsity matches between BVW and Ray-Pec last night. Great job of calling both stalemates and stalling. Pushed the action. Best job I've seen in the last 6 years!

Stalling...its the most complained-about call in wrestling.
Everybody wants it called...on the other guy. We talk about it at almost every officials/supervisor meeting. Its gotten much more consistent over the years.

Here's my opinion, and that's all it is:

The reason stalling is a violation is because stalling in wrestling makes it boring to watch. No other sport penalizes stalling (some might argue the shot clock is similar). So its purpose is to keep the match interesting.In many matches, they are either interesting enough already, or nothing is going to make them so. So calling stalling serves no purpose.

Some don't know the rules. It is not required that you bring your opponent back to the mat if he stands up. You must make an effort. That's the rule. Too many officials, coaches, and fans think that there is some time limit (5 secs) to accomplish the return. That is not the rule and should not be called unless no effort to return is being made. Many, many, blown calls on this point.

There is a difference between strategic stalling and inability to wrestle stalling. A kid 30 pounds overweight and without any conditioning isn't stalling when he lays down on the mat, he is preventing an early cardiac arrest. Same goes for kids that do not know any moves. If you can't wrestle, you can't stall. Both these situations occur from time to time. Some might argue they happen most of the time. I'm not so cynical.But stalling does seem to require an intent to stall. If you are riding on top, and you simply do not have the strength, ability, or knowledge to to turn your opponent, you are not stalling, you are just not very talented. The official, in a few short minutes, has to decide what is going on....lack of ability, or lack of desire.
Also, the same inaction in the 3rd period may not be stalling although it would have been in the first period.

Equally matched wrestlers may not be able to improve their positions because attempting to do so will give up an advantage. Should that be considered stalling? Also, while it is clearly stalling, many believe that a wrestler that only "counters" shots on his feet should not be penalized. The rules say otherwise.

If a wrestler works hard and earns a lead, protecting that lead would be stalling. No other sport takes this approach. On the other hand, wrestling is designed to be the most "fair" sport there is -- two opponents of equal weight facing off.

On a personal note. After my first couple years I decided that stalling wasn't being called enough so I took it upon myself to "call stalling whenever it occurs." I bought Dave Frisch's (NCAA) tape on the topic and focused particularly on early calls in the first period using his "shot counting" method. It drove the coaches crazy and while I'm sure every call was sound, they could not handle it. Also, I used Frisch's approach that if the wrestlers ended up out of bounds someone was probably stalling.
While I still believe that to be the case in most situations (how many times do you see a kid make no effort to stay in bounds when on the edge--that is, by definition, stalling or fleeing yet it happens 100s of time during a tournament without either call).

If stalling was called by the book, few matches would go the distance. Most would end up with a DQ on stalling penalties. Maybe if that started happening, the kids would pick up the pace, but my guess is the coaches would put a stop to calls. This year college rules took stalling off the penalty sequence and stalling calls won't result in a DQ, regardless of the number. If that rule trickles down, stalling might get called more often, similar to false starts.

However, after all this, there are some pretty well-recognized situations where stalling does occur and it doesn't get called. My opinion is that the officials have decided, whether consciously or not, that it just isn't worth listening to the harping to make those calls.

Finally, I can't let Will off the hook on his comment that a double stall is a bad call. If both are stalling, both are stalling and it happens on the feet regularly. Either don't call either or call both, but don't pick one as the bigger offender. It takes two to wrestle.If you want to have some criteria--and mine is who is going out of bounds first, then call one and not the other on that basis, but trying to figure out who is stalling less is hard to justify.

On Wednesday it Killes Hunter Haralson at southwest. Hunter just look dead on bottom and I think lost 1-2 points on stalling and not moving on bottom and it was 8-8. Then he looked dead on his feet and lost in Overtime

"Everybody wants it called...on the other guy."
- not always the case. Many high school coaches would not mind stalling called on their wrestlers when they are stalling.

"In many matches, they are either interesting enough already, or nothing is going to make them so. So calling stalling serves no purpose."
- did you really just write this?

"Some don't know the rules. It is not required that you bring your opponent back to the mat if he stands up. You must make an effort. That's the rule. Too many officials, coaches, and fans think that there is some time limit (5 secs) to accomplish the return. That is not the rule and should not be called unless no effort to return is being made. Many, many, blown calls on this point. "
- Any good wrestling fan can see effort or attempt to bring someone down to the mat. Fans will be fans and scream for their kids. Refs in Kansas do do a pretty good job on this call already.

"A kid 30 pounds overweight and without any conditioning isn't stalling when he lays down on the mat, he is preventing an early cardiac arrest."
- If a kid is out of shape and not doing anything than stalling is exactly what they are doing. Part of wrestling is being in shape.

"Equally matched wrestlers may not be able to improve their positions because attempting to do so will give up an advantage. Should that be considered stalling?"
- YES

"If a wrestler works hard and earns a lead, protecting that lead would be stalling."
- Yes, if he stops wrestling, you are stalling.

"If stalling was called by the book, few matches would go the distance."
- So instead 0 stalls calls are made! How does that make sense? Nobody is telling a ref to DQ a kid. Stalling can still be a factor in a match without DQ-ing a kid.

"This year college rules took stalling off the penalty sequence and stalling calls won't result in a DQ, regardless of the number."
- College refs called stalling before this year on a pretty consistent level already.

"However, after all this, there are some pretty well-recognized situations where stalling does occur and it doesn't get called. My opinion is that the officials have decided, whether consciously or not, that it just isn't worth listening to the harping to make those calls."
- This is sad to hear, because you talked about reffing on a personal level. GROW A SACK! Tell the coaches to shove it and make calls the way they need to be called. If the job is too tough then don't do it!

Wow, lazyman 1, good call. I read that post and thought many of the same things but was just to lazy to break it down and comment. Or maybe I was stalling.......I am easily 30 pounds overweight and trying to avoid a visit to the cath lab?

How many times can the top man drop to an ankle and just hang on? I was under the impression that this was stalling. The top wrestler can drop to the ankle, but needs to work up. If a wrestler is just hanging on the ankle for three to four minutes of a match, the official needs to make the call. First two times I think a stalemate should be called. Everytime after that the top man is stalling.

Sorry for the double post.

i thinks STALLING is consistently called inconsistently. at a tournament last weekend, i watched a 145lb match where the wrestlers have faced each other about 4 times already this year. neither was going to engage the other, so we sat through 3 periods of "the dance" barely even hand fighting. the fans would have benefited from a "double stall call" then. the same tourney in the hwt match, it was the usual- no real attempts at takedowns, but a whole lot of pushing, pulling and belly rubbin'- wrestler "A" is a better belly rubber, and pushes more, so .......... wrestler "B" gets dinged for stalling. not sure if it was the same ref or not, but the crew should get together and decide on how they are going control the action. INCONSISTENT.



most all sports have some sort of rule in place to prevent "stalling" or to press the action. each in their own way.
basketball- shot clock
football- play clock
hockey- offsides call presses the action
soccer- the goalie box presses the action
mma- the stand up

most sports don't have rules in place to prevent stalling as strategy. you touched on that also, but athletes, and coaches will find a way to use stalling as a tactic no matter how the rule changes.

in college wrestling you hear it all the time from announcers. "oh he has the riding time advantage......or he has a two point lead......so he has a stall call to give"

I officated this weekend with stalling on my mind. It was a JV tournament, though. Even though I was more conscious of it, there wasn't a whole lot of situations where the call was made. There was one tactic I used that worked and I want to pass it along. In the heavier weights, 220 and HWT I told the wrestlers up front that they were required to make every effort to stay in bounds and if they went out of bounds it was stalling and would be called on the wrestler that went out of bounds.

It worked great and I'm using it to keep the action going. Some of the coaches complained that their kid was being blocked and pushed but all the kid being pushed had to do was turn in towards the center and avoid being taken out of bounds. Again, it worked great. After the initial warning I had little clock stoppage and after the first point no one went out again. It was eye-opening for me. And these were JV kids so if they "got it" the varsity wrestlers certainly will. Its going to cause some coaches some angst but its an effective approach to preventing kids from just using the OOB to stop the action. Just in time for the post-season!

My 2nd least favorite stall call is the "here you go coach" fist that flies up with 8 ticks left and isn't going to make one bit of difference. Do us a favor, leave your hand down quit trying to save face for the failure to give the warning when stalling was happening earlier and could have made a difference in the match.

Well said Mr. Cokeley....Well Said!

To be clear, the referee has NO business coaching ("told the wrestlers up front that they were required to make every effort to stay in bounds,...,") the wrestlers. If the wrestler pushes the other out of bounds, ding him, if the wrestler is stalling, ding him. The referee should be conscious of all the rules, and call all consistently.

Based on what I have read regarding your previous statements in this thread on stalling and this last statement you have competency issues and I question if your are qualified to officiate at any level.

The "courtesy stall call".......my least favorite

Cokeley posted this link a couple of months ago: http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/240...ves-on-Stalling

Shows several video clips NJ ref certifiers in a clinic discussing stalling. Very very informative. Everyone on this post should watch all of the videos.

I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one holding that opinion of my competency or my abilities. I'm working hard to be JV Official of the Year. But this thread is about stalling and I hope not so much about me....but since I only told both the kids what the rule was...."you are required to stay in bounds or it is stalling" I think I'm fine on that point under the rules. This was before the whistle blew, so I don't see that as coaching the wrestlers. It would be coaching if I told one wrestler to do something...such as "Red, you need to improve" or "Green, work in bounds." That's direction to one wrestler and is not allowed (but happens often). Telling them both to do something is usually considered preventative officiating and is encouraged. And in this situation, it worked great to prevent stalling. So I'm a little confused by your interpretion of the rule.

While I'm sure I have lots of problems, the problem raised in this thread ("calling all officials"), and the reason for the discussion, is that stalling seems to be a concern. So I hoped to generate some thoughtul discussion and put out there a technique that worked well.

In my earlier post on stalling I said it was just my opinion....I know the stalling rules. Heck, I know most of the rules because they gave me a book with my patch. The problem is, as this thread demonstrates, calling stalling is not consistent. I was attempting to explain why I thought that was the case.

You can criticize my opinion and my technique, but unless I kicked your cat or gave you a wedgie at some point in the past, I don't know why you'd think this was a post that warranted a personal attack for expressing my views. Well, actually, I do, because I read the posts here often and a lot of those posts are attacks of a personal naturerather than a discussion of the topic. But you sign your name, so I guess that's within the rules. I make general comments from time to time about folks, in general, (coaches usually, sometimes parents) but try to avoid calling individuals names because while it is a forum, the participants are a pretty small group and calling each other names isn't really polite and doesn't move the conversation in a positive direction.

Oh, by the way, getting back to the rules....pushing a wrestler out of bounds is probably not stalling, so if you meant it was and I did "ding" him for stalling, that would be suspect (but often made) call. It is usually "avoiding wrestling" and considered a technical violation and a point, not a stalling warning. But it doesn't get called much either and when it does most officials take the easy out and call stalling....another example of part of the problem with the whole area of keeping the action moving.

So, to sum this up. I came to this wrestling forum and read how stalling was a big problem. So I then used a technique of telling both wrestlers to stay in bounds because it was stalling to go out. They did what I told them to do and they did not stall. The matches moved along, which is what we fans, coaches, and officials, want to happen. But a man I've never met calls me "incompetent." I need to look up the meaning of that word....doesn't sound like it means "well read and thoughtful."

Bob Ford
Official

Richard, I though Rford made some excellent posts. He hit on the realities of the situation. It also appears he has made an effort to educate himself. I guess next time he should run his thoughts through you first. No wonder most refs will not get on here and give us some insite to their thinking - too many who don't or can't do the job, telling them how to do it..... John

Also, just a question - when top man rides with a leg hooked, pretending to work on a cradel, and then complaining that the bottom man won't work. Who is stalling?/

We watched a couple of these NJWO videos mentioned above at our last meeting. For those that don't officiate, they might provide some insight into how officials try to make sure stalling is called correctly in the context of the match situation. Also, the official describes how he explains his approach to the rule to the wrestlers so that they know how he is going to call it on his mat.

Thank you for your support...I've been called worse. Like others on this forum, from time to time I'll throw out ideas as "food for thought" and I'm surprised sometimes that people go nuts.

Onto your stalling question, like so much in wrestling, you have to have a feel for the match to make the right call. Hooking the leg/ankle while riding always needs to be watched with suspicion as it might be used to stop the action. Context matters...is the rider ahead in the match and what period is it? Has he been the aggressor so far? "What's the bottom man doing" as they say. Is he sneaking looks at the clock? Does he put a hold on and release it as soon as the bottom man starts to work? How long has he been trying this same move with no success. How good are the wrestlers? How evenly matched? And so on. Bottom line, any hold or position can turn into a stalling situation.

I'll give you and example I witnessed that was similar to what you posted. A kid was in a state-qualifing match and it was late and the match was tied. He had the legs in but wasn't going to be able to score and he lifts his torso off the wrestler's back and gives the "what's up" sign with both arms...the bottom kid felt the pressure release but couldn't move in time and the top guy drops back onto him. And of course he couldn't see what the top guy was doing. After the second "what's up" gesture the ref hits the bottom kid for stalling, and then pointed him shortly thereafter. Top man wins by totally stalling and play acting. But it looked like the top kid was working hard while the bottom man was just based up. He couldn't move because of the leg ride. I'm not faulting the ref, this was a big match, the top man appeared to be working hard, but he was only working hard at making it look like the bottom guy was stalling.