Dual State

how about this idea for a dual state tournament.


6,5,4 all in a dual state tournament. 128 teams.

this year dates:

Tues JAN 31

32 sites across state hold "district" double dual. Four teams. Winners wrestle winners, loser wrestles loser. District champion advances.


Tuesday Feb 7th 8 sites hold double dual Same format Winner is Regional Champion. could use kids club boundaries for regionals.

Saturday at Salina, topeka, or where ever 8 team dual tournament.


THE REST OF THE STATE can wrestle in their league tournaments or have the weekend off and come watch dual state.

It's a great idea! Have also heard several great ideas for grand state, trouble is it doesn't sound like anyone at the KSHAA is willing to consider anything that might enhance high school wrestling in the state of Kansas. Makes me wonder if other states have to endure the same frustration?

In oklahoma we used to do it like this, and i thnk that they still do.
wrestle your league or your district, winner of the district or leagues get paired up in brackets the weekend before regionals.
they would keep it 6a,5a,4a... and they would let the league winners battle it out for that class duel state champ. it wouldn't be that hard.

Why not just qualify the winning school/team from each 6, 5, and 4A regional(equals 12 schools/team) and the week after the state tournament have the 12 match up in an all class dual. The KISS principle!!! If we want to have another tournament, why not do one that results in an all class number one champion school/team---why have a champion in each class. This year am sure Ark City would be #1. Keep it Simple S..... See no need for all those extra "district tournaments".

http://www.usawks.com/

Here is dual state proposal we (KWCA board) repeatedly proposed to the KSHSAA over the past decade, each time being told no.

I never said anything about district or league tournaments, I said win your league and get an invite. KISS should tell you that you can not set a duel tournament with an individual tournament. it has to be set on a duel criteria meaning "duel" This team wrestles that Team, not all the teams have a tournament. we wrestled Andale and lost by three points in a duel and then andale outscored us but 90 points at the state tournament. Another example Tulsa union beats Broken arrow in duel state, but broken arrow wins state tourny.
If you want an all class champ then have the winners of the four state titles compete in a final four showdown the folling day.

I like the purposal, but with a little tweaking I think we can address another wish and that is all 4 classes in the same building.
I would purpose moving regionals up one week or state back a week to make this happen.
Have dual state the week between regionals and indvidual state. Or after if there's heartburn about that.
Have the top 2 teams from each regional qualify. That would help address one regional being potentially stronger than another.
1's vs 2's 1st round.
So that would be 32 teams total.
Lose first round you go home or better yet, stay and watch.
Here's a sample schedule:
8 mats: 6A & 5A at 9:00
4A & 321 at 11:00
Lunch at 1:00 Switch the order every year.
2:00 semi-finals on all 8 mats.
4:00 Consolation duals for 3rd all 4 classes at the same time.
6:00 Finals all 4 classes at the same time.
Like any other plan it looks simple and do-able.
Would make for a great, loud, energetic atmosphere.
It would also keep more kids wrestling longer in the season.

The link doesn't take you there. I've posted it below:


PROPOSAL TO KSHSAA

DUAL STATE WRESTLING TOURNAMENT

QUALIFYING PROCESS:
top 4 teams in each Regional tournament qualify for a 16-team Dual State for each class
in case two teams are tied for fourth place, the following criteria will be used: 1) most Regional top six placers; 2) most top four placers; 3) most top two placers; 4) most champions; 5) most wins in Regional tournament (not including byes); 6) highest win pct. in Regional tournament; 7) most wins head-to-head (between two teams in question); 8) coin toss

CALENDAR SCHEDULE:
one-day tournament, four mats for each class
the Regional and Individual State tournaments will be moved up one week, with the Dual State tournament held the weekend which is currently the Individual State weekend
teams still allowed 30 scheduling points

BRACKET ARRANGEMENT:
16 teams in bracket, single elimination, semi-final losers wrestle for third place
Round 1 @ 10:30 a.m. - four mats
Round 1 (cont.) @ 12:30 p.m. - four mats
Quarterfinals @ 2:30 p.m. - four mats
Semi-finals @ 4:30 p.m. - two mats
First/Third place @ 6:30 p.m. - two mats
Brackets will be set using the same formula used to set the Ind. State brackets (First A vs. Fourth B, Second C vs. Third D, etc.)

MISCELLANEOUS:
teams may weigh-in any 18 wrestlers and adjust their lineups throughout the day as per National Federation rules
top three teams receive trophies and medals for each team member

NOTES:
this event is fan and media "friendly" as it is easy to follow
this event gives a wrestler a chance to compete in a state-level event even if he may not have been able to qualify for Ind. State....more opportunities and recognition for kids!!
a great promotional event for our sport and its top teams
rewards the programs with balance strength throughout the lineup
20 of 48 states that sponsor wrestling have a Dual State tourney....Doug Moore (Concordia wrestling coach) contacted these states and all who responded had very positive comments about their Dual State events
only twice in the history of the Iowa Dual State has the same team won both the Individual State and Dual State team title
The plan is to run the event for two years in this format, then revisit it and make any necessary adjustments

Individual tournaments should have nothing to do with qualifying for a dual team tournament!

This looks like a good proposal as any. Just curious as to why the KSHSAA rejects this. Is it the coaches committee, or just the KSHSAA administrator that rejects the team state proposal? You this might create a little extra work for the regime in Topeka, and we couldn't have that?

Just to compare formats, I used to live in OHIO and they take the 8 teams who have the most returning points from the prior year individual state tournament. They run a day tournament in the middle of the season to crown the champion. They have 3 classes, so this makes 3 tournaments. Seeding is also based on returning points.

In Indiana where I'm at now. They have one class and they do not score team points at the individual tournament since there are so many teams (350 something teams). They have 32 districts and the winner of each district gets entered into a tournament. It takes two weeks to run.

Both are very popular.

I like the idea of league winners being invited. Many teams are now dropping regular season duals (except the required league matches)and entering bigger individual tournaments to maximize mat time due to competition points. This would also create more excitement and rivalries for league duals because they would essentially be qualifying events!

Thank you big pin, i dont understand why that is so hard to understand. Every team is in a league, and they wrestle all the teams in that league during the season to determine a champion, well start making that league championship worth something, and make these duels count for something other than something to go do on thursday, and let that winner of the leagues get a chance to move on to have a shot at a state "Duel" title. If anyone can tell me how many leagues thier are i am willing to bet I could make a reasonable suggestion and it probably would get passed. A tournament and a duel are two different beast! I dont understand how you can even apply the thought of having a tournament qualify you for a duel. How about we have a duel regional to qualify for state?

QUALIFYING PROCESS:
Win your league in duels, recieve an invite to the duel state tournament. "No seeds randon draw like that state tournament".

When: have it the week before regionals, this allows you to forget about the duel aspect and concentrate on the tournament aspect of it after the tournament is complete.

I think a grand state would be much more entertaining and make 10x the money, provide college coaches a chance to see the best in the state under one roof. I guarantee it would have the biggest crowd of the year. Take the top 4 from each weight and class put them in a two day 16 man bracket the week after state.

1. It benefits the highschool kids wrestling the most with the chance of being recruited by more schools.

2. The only way this will get approved is by showing them profits. I really think this would sell out in Topeka and would come close in the sprint center.

3. A duel state is not as exciting, I do not think it would even come close to the crowd a grand state would draw.

Reference conferences/leagues---most are composed of schools from 2 or more classes. How do you ID schools for a dual from such conferences?

Agree with LB. A Grand State is a much better idea--plus can be done within the current class structures. Do not understand what is the purpose of a dual state!

One problem with using "league" champions as a qualifier is that in some leagues not all the teams are in the same classification.

For instance in the Greater Wichita Athletic League there are three 5A schools and six 6A teams. Wichita is also adding a few more schools to the district so that will change the dynamic of the GWAL as well. The Eastern Kansas League has 4 in 5A and 4 in 6A.

Out west in the Great Western Athletic Conference there is a similar problem with three teams in 321A and three in 4A. The Western Athletic Conference has two 6A teams and three 5A schools.

Even in the SEK the type of format you have proposed would not have worked in the past. Pittsburg has typically been in 5A until this year. However, it looks like Pitt will remain in 4A due to the addition of more schools in the Wichita and Kansas City metro areas.

Besides having members that are not in the same classification leagues also pose the unique problem of not having the same amount of members. There are also leagues that only have a few schools with wrestling like the Flint Hills League which has 4 wrestling programs out of 8 schools or the Cherokee Neosho Crawford League where there are 2 wrestling programs out 8 teams.

If a dual state is ever going to happen it will either have to be based off of a district system similar to football, but with more teams in a wrestling district. However, many teams have a difficult time fielding full teams so even having a district system would not be worth the time of having the duals. This is why using the regional tournament placers has been proposed because often times those top 4 teams in regionals have to field full teams to finish that high or have a roster that has approximately 7 state qualifying capable westlers.

This is just a proposal that has been out there for quite a few years and obviously it has not had any traction with KSHSAA. Maybe a district dual system similar to what is used in Oklahoma would be a more viable option, but league championships would not work due to the reasons I already stated.

Oh well, I guess we can keep thumping our drums for dual or grand states and see which happens first, but I wouldn't hold my breath for either.

Read some of these articles and watch some of the accompanying videos from the Oklahoma Dual State Championships and it might change your mind.

Classes 5A-6A wrestling dual state notebook: Tulsa Union pulls out close win

Classes 5A-6A wrestling: Freshmen help secure Collinsville's second consecutive title

Class 4A wrestling: Tuttle wins third straight dual state title

Class 3A-4A wrestling dual state notebook: Perry's dominance continues

All of the teams that won a dual state title in Oklahoma this season finished ahead of all the Kansas teams they matched up in tournament fields with except for the Perry Tournament where Ark City finished 2nd. However the following week at the Kansas City National Classic Tournament Ark City finished behind 3 of those state champions, while Tulsa Union did not compete.

This year and in many years Oklahoma wrestling is on a slightly higher level than Kansas. I think that in order for Kansas to grow the sport of wrestling which is still happening in Oklahoma, Iowa, and even more in Texas, we need to jump on board and have a dual state championship series. All of those states have dual state. Why can't we?

You guys are definatly missing out! It was tons of fun.

For those of you who are too young to have participated or attended the two Grand State tournaments we had in 1975 and 1976 which were held at Fort Hays State Univ., they both were very successful and I'm sure a money maker for the K.S.H.S.A.A. . The concept was attempted for basketball and was not as successful. Because of the failure of the basketball Grand State, wrestling was not allowed to continue with Grand State.

Problem with League Champ qualification would be AVTCL Division II this year

Ark City
Goddard
Andover Central

3 teams in the Top 5 and two don't qualify.
Not to mention VC which is usually pretty strong Dual team

so what? happens all the time in other sports. the champion has to beat them all, whether as league, districts, sub-state.........

How about a state dual format the KSHSAA regime can't reject. Here's the plan. Have a non-sanctioned dual invite tournament. Invite the top 8 pre-season ranked teams from all classes. Could be based on returning state points or even the Chief's rankings.
You have to use pre-season rankings so it can be scheduled. Maybe the KSHSAA would give some extra competition points. Still would be better to use competition points on this instead of an average tournament. Seeding would be based on rankings. If a team rejects the invite, the next ranked team gets to take the empty spot. You could set up a format to ensure teams would have a least 3 matches or more and you could place each team. I would also ensure that you have to take at least one team from each class. The little guys get there shot to upset the big guys.
Have a central location and you could do it in a day. It could be in a big high school gym. Only 8 teams, but a lot of wrestling fans.

I know the good teams are looking for better competition no matter what class, so this would be a good opportunity for that. Maybe the coaches association could sponsor the event, or a school could host it. Maybe the host school gets automatically entered. The trophy doesn't have to say KSHSAA to be the state champion.