Catholic Boy Wrestlers may have to forfeit...

http://www.kctv5.com/story/21192136/catholic-boy-wrestlers-may-have-to-forfeit-matches-against-girls

If BYU can continuously get around playing the NCAA on Sundays, at least in the early rounds, I am sure similair compromise can be forged. Here, it never stopped Dylan Schumacher.

Dylan was never in a bracket that forced him to forfeit to a girl and not qualify for state.

113 at the Mill Valley 5A regional could have huge ramifications. 20 points at state?

This topic seems to come up every so often. I am Catholic, and wrestled girls different times throughout my wrestling career. I know many other Catholics, and catholic schools that allow their wrestlers to compete if a girl is in their bracket. Myself personally feel this is telling your wrestler that even though you worked your butt off to get to this point, we are going to take it all away because we don’t trust you to just wrestle out there. I also feel it is telling the girl I don’t respect you enough to go toe to toe with you. I know I may get some negative responses to this, but I feel if a girl wants to participate in a predominately male sport, let her, and let the boy go out against her and lets see who is the best wrestler.

I have 2 nieces that wrestle in kids wrestling here in Kansas, and both of them are very competitive in the boys division. I hope if they wrestle later on into middle school and high school, they don’t have to deal with this situation, as they are catholic and if this becomes a big deal it will end most of their wrestling career, as girls wrestling is not an every weekend thing yet in Kansas.

Chief, Chief, Chief, Chief..........

This rule may have prevented Dylan from being a 4xer. Check out his state bracket from the 2009-2010 tournament and then let me know what you think.

Did they not know the rules before they enrolled?

So he pinned the Lakin girl in the first round at state. He was not forced to forfeit to her.

While it is unfortunate that this rule could cost a young man a trip to state or a place on the state medal stand, I do not feel a compromise should be forged! The girls who do this sport work hard and deserve to wrestle and KSHSAA does not have a rule that prevents them from participating. Therefor, Catholic Schools know that when they join KSHSAA the "boys cannot wrestle girls" rule may cost their student-athletes. Furthermore, these boys and families should be aware that the potential is present for this situation to arise. It is certainly unfortunate!

I hope it does not cost a young man an opportunity to qualify and place at state, but if a compromise needs to be made then it is up to the leadership in the Kansas City Diocese to compromise their beliefs and let their boys wrestle girls(which seems to be what the parents in the article are asking for).

By the way, I am Catholic and do not believe it is a sin for a boy to wrestle a girl. If and when my boy starts wrestling, we will wrestle girls if a girl toes the line and my son is ok with it. My children will attend public school so the decision will be up to our family.

Hey Red Storm,

Does the Salina Diocese not have this rule??

I didn't bother to check.

Where does it say in the bible or 10 commandments it is a sin for a boy compete in a sport against a girl.

The commandments dont say that. They also dont explain when life begins, unfortunatley. Its faith and beliefs. When you enroll, you are saying that you are on board.

Without getting into a huge religious debate. . . Let me explain that the Catholic Faith does not just base everything off the Bible. The Catholic Faith asserts that Catholic Church Traditions are equivalent to the Bible when building a platform of faith. In other words, something does not have to be in the Bible or 10 Commandments for it to be a staple of the Catholic Faith.

Faith and beliefs in what? If we are not talking about the bible then what are the Catholic schools talking about? Sounds like man made rules that are disrespecting a female athlete to me.

Thats precisely why Luther bailed

Too late!

Right on Luellen!

Touche Sportsfan, and guys these were rhetorical questions, I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, was even an alter boy. I am very well aware of Catholic Doctrine. My posts were an attempt to provoke thought for those that support this rule that the Catholic schools have in place. And calling competition between girls and boys in sports a staple of the Catholic faith is a real stretch and probably offensive to most Catholics reading this post.

Talking about whatever they want because they can. If you dont like it, dont send your children to school there. These rules have not just been dreamed in the last week. They have been around for as long as I can remember in the KC and Wichita Diocese.

Here we go....been waiting for Chief to get on his STA and SJA soap box. THIS IS VERY SIMPLY....follow the KSHAA rules or go play somewhere else.

We appreciate the concern of our prodistant brothers, but you know what they say about opinions!

Read above, big guy! I stated that I am Catholic and do not believe it is a sin to wrestle a boy. Your rhetorical question was pointless because the people who go to a Catholic School in a Diocese that has this rule know it is not in the Bible, but realize their Diocese interprets this as against their faith and has this rule. I'm sure my posts on this topic have not offended any Catholics with a brain!

I really thought you did not know how the Catholic Faith worked and was just saying that the Catholic Faith is based on Bible and Tradition. I did not state that this rule was a staple of their Faith.

I now know that your rhetorical question was intended to take a shot at the KC Diocese policies or the use of Tradition in faith in general. Good one! I will take my Faith any day and not take shots at yours!

. No one has taken shots at anyones faith. The faith your are talking about is Christianty. The doctrine is Catholicism. And this rule aint in either!

lol. I like Mill Valley too Peanut. Coach Keal is a good friend. You're on the MV soapbox again!

p.s. Nobody "plays" wrestling.

Yes, I know you know coach Keal. Rumor has it you have been calling him about this issue. Care to share why you called him.
Doesn't appear to be a Coach Keal issue.

These rules are fairly new in the KC Diocese. I coached girls at a Catholic School about 10 yrs ago. This falls soley on the Arch Bishop.

Actually he called me! Ask him.

My apologies Chief, I had bad information. I would hope no one would called him as this is not his issue. He is doing what every coach should do. Put his best team on the mat and wrestle.

At one point in my coaching career, I was dead set against girls wrestling. I am pretty old school (shocking to those who know me). I took a team to the Wichita Carroll Tourney one year and Great Bend had a girl wrestling for them at the time. I remember that Brook Medrano from Emporia was wrestling her in the first round. We joked about it, didn't give her much thought as an actual wrestler, sort of looked at it as many of us did at that time. Brook did what he often did to most wrestlers and beat her pretty badly. I had a kid coming off the mat about that time and happened to walk by her as she sat there crying with her face in her hands. At that moment, I looked down on her, and she was just a wrestler. She wasn't a girl or a boy, she was just a wrestler that was hurting from a loss just like anyone else did. She was a competitor. I remember reaching down on the way by and patting her head and telling her the obligatory "good job", but I meant it, and it changed forever my thought process about girls wrestling. She was a part of the sport I fell in love with over 50 years ago and she loved it just as much as any of the rest of us did. Not sure why I thought of that when I heard this story but I did.

I totally agree. Travis has taken the high road here and rightfully so.

Travis Keal always takes the high road. It is the only road he knows. That is a fine wrestling coach right there.

Let me get this straight. You're supposed to trust your boy alone with a priest behind closed doors, but not with a girl on a wrestling mat? That's messed up.

After the black or white smoke cleared the ruling was definitively and with finality pronounced to us a few weeks ago. At the time I was puzzled that this organization would be responsible for defining "inappropriate touching."

J.Dale,
I find this comment very rude, and somewhat insulting to the Catholic religion. I just had this conversation with someone the other day. Before someone goes, and makes statements about priest, being inappropriate maybe they need to check the facts. The Catholic faith is put on the front page with their few bad apples out there that did do these horrible things mainly because the priest can not be married. Statistics show there are just as many inappropriate things that go on with other faiths, with the pastors, priest, leaders of the church etc...., many of these are hidden, and never made public in order to save a marriage, or to not put children in the middle of it. I am not going to get into a religion war over this, but I find your comment very inappropriate.
And yes I have done the research about this topic.
Now back to what this forum is about WRESTLING.

So what happens if a wrestler decides they are going to wrestle anyway? Do they have the ability to make the decision and face potential consequences?

The Catholic faith is put on the front page with their few bad apples out there that did do these horrible things mainly because the priest can not be married.

This wins the award for the dumbest comment ever on this forum.

It was nice of you to para phrase my comments Jeremy. I said they are put on the front page as they are not married, but other church leaders are not subject to the media backlash due to them being married and not wanting to put marriages or children in the negative spot light.

I am glad I could help you understand my earlier post.

Over under on how long the censor police will leave this thread going?

I think sta is going to start a few females in weights where they are open, Would be one way to mess up St james at regionals.


Only kidding.

I did not paraphrase I used the sentence that you wrote maybe you should have written it differently. Maybe said "but statistics show ..." now back to wrestling...

The outrage is not so much the acts these sick humans (priests) did. With a church this large your bound to attract some sick puppies. The outrage for many including me is the cover up and relocation of these sick puppies to other totally unaware parishes so that pedophiles can continue ruining lives. The outrage is with the bishops arch bishops and cardinals.

Wow, wouldn't be cool if there was a talk forum devoted to wrestling. Still I so enjoy this yearly ritual of my denomination is so much better than yours.
I for one cannot wait for the wrestling to begin and this nonsense to end.

It would be an even better place if religious leaders would stay out of competitive sports to push their personal, religious agendas. It always gets ugly when you start mixing religion, politics and sports. I personally wish this topic would have waited to surface after the state tournament because at this point nothing is going to change. Lets wrestle this weekend and hopefully the right wrestlers will make it to state. Good luck to all. Not only in reaching your goals but in remaining healthy.

I agree these situations should have been handled better. Just as the situation in KC areas needs to be handled different so these wrestlers can compete.

The question was asked earlier if the wrestler has the choice to take the mat or not? Or is it going to pre-decided by the coach? If he does take the mat would he face expulsion from the school?

Bailed and the RAN FOR HIS LIFE!!!

So what happens if these kids say screw it and wrestle anyyway, will they have to say 10 hail mary's as punishment. I would say wrestling a girl is less morally corrupting than being an alter boy, as least the girl wrestling wont get molested.

Although the war in Iraq is over and the war in Afghanistan is winding down, the next war will likely have (more) women serving in combat roles. I hope that the soldiers to her left and right won't quit the fight because of their religious (or other personal) beliefs.

from 2003-2009 the catholic church has had 9 major settlements for sexual abuse of minors involving 375 cases and 1551 victims which resulted in payments of $1.1 Billion. From 2004-2011 8 catholic dioceses have went bankrupt settling sex abuse cases.

I think boys and girls wrestling each other is the least of their problems.

There are enough smart people in this situation to make sure all get to state. Yes there will be some matches that dont get wrestled but the rules can be followed and they all get to state.

[/quote]
p.s. Nobody "plays" wrestling. [/quote]

Well, nobody that knows what they are talking about or who has wrestled a little.
That's rich Chief. That's the best comment so far on this thread.
It's funny as a coach when you get a new kid that really hasn't wrestled and they ask, "Coach, when do I play?". Of course we say, "we don't play in wrestling", or "you can play when you go home, we don't play here".

Well, that one's close, but still behind the "we don't play".

I didn't really take it that way L. Geyer and I don't think I would be offended by that or a multitude of other comments that could be made, not even if I was Catholic. Inapropriate things happen in all professions and aspects of life, not just religion. For me it was more about not being able to trust a boy on the mat with a girl. That's what is ridiculous. Yea, don't trust them at home alone maybe, or on a date maybe, but on the mat? Seriously? The whole philosophy is ridiculous with all due respect to Catholics, which I have a lot of Catholic friends because my son wrestled in the Carroll Kids Club. Let them wrestle. I know if I were in a similar situation, my son would be wrestling and I don't believe we would be doing anything wrong. I would hope they wouldn't excommunicate me or something I guess. Now if there is some contract or pact that ones has to accept to go to some Catholic school that says you can't wrestle girls, I just wouldn't go. I can still go to the Catholic Church can't I? Maybe I would have to deconvert. My feeling would be that my son has spent years toiling and sacrificing for this moment, this opportunity, and there aint no way we are missing it now.

I hear what you are saying Jeremy but the dumbest ever? Now that's a stretch. Maybe the dumbest on this thread, but certainly not the forum. We have all seen a lot of ridiculously dumb comments over the years on the forum haven't we. I know I have and I have seen a lot that make this comment pale. Dang, I bet even some of my comments were dumber than this. LOL though.

Here is the short end of the story.

Mill Valley draws into the bottom at 113. STA forfeits first and then SJA in the semis. She will go to state as a regional finalist. Maybe the first girl to make it to state in 5A??

Yes, that would be cool. No, really it's always cool isn't it, but I hear what you are saying.
Surely nobody was trying to say their denomination was better.
Yes, excited about regional and state. I hope that no good boys miss their opportunity because of religion. That would be sad.
And best wishes to Parker. I am anxious to see him able to go at 100% so hope he's there. Sure missed seeing the big matches at league. Parker is always so exciting to watch.

My kid is wrestling for sure. And then we will face the consequences, even if it means expulsion.

Will, I think 2 girls went to state in 5A three years ago. I think one was from Topeka Highland and not sure where the other was from.

XGHSWC.. (not sure where your son goes to school) there will be administrators that will not allow it to happen. Many more jobs will be on the line then just a coach or expulsion of a kid from school. This situation will cause all sorts of feelings. Private schools have rules set in place that our great sport cant change. Only thing is before someone goes to one specifically to compete in a sport they need to be told what could happen. If you know up front this could happen then it is on you. I personally have never believed girls should be wrestling boys at all but unfortunately I have lost that battle as both states I have coached in allowed it to happen. That is the only way this situation doesnt happen. Your not going to change the Catholics view on it. This is a perfect situation that proves it isnt healthy for our sport. Take up the equal sex rights somewhere else in the adult world and keep from hurting the innocents of youth. Is BS but is something that just needs to be thought of as keeping the hurt as little as possible.

So did the the MV wrestler get drawn in to the bottom or was that a case scenerio Mr Cokeley? I was just hoping if she was on top the either STJ or STA would forfeit their first round match assuring both of them getting to state versus one of them being left at home which would be a shame.

I have heard that this was all brought on by a complaint from an IMAC parent. Their kid lost to a girl from doniphan west and called the diocese and complained, that is why this is now being enforced, when it hasn't been all year.

Will she be the first wrestler to go 0-1 at regionals and qualify for state?

My son is in college. I was speaking hypothetically I guess. My son is wrestling no matter what. If the Catholic School tells me in advance this could happen and I can see I won't be able to do anything about it, then like I said, I am going somewhere else. If I am Catholic, can I still go to the Catholic Church if I don't go to the Catholic School? Or like I said, do I have to "deconvert". And I don't care about anyone elses feelings or "equal sex rights?" In this instance, I only care about my son's, and the fact that he has toiled and sacrificed for years to get to this point. And like I said, there aint no way he's missing his opportunity now because of some religous belief, with all due respect.

Easy fix.. so everyone can have there own beliefs and feelings when it comes to christianity or what school they choose or choose not to go to. Girls do not wrestle boys. The state has girls wrestling or they dont wrestle. I promise if there was a vote taken it wouldnt even be a point to be considered. It just hurts our sport and no disrespect to the girls that are competing but I will always disagree with the girls competing against the boys.

I was corrected by a friend about my earlier post. Something I forgot to add. There will be a 4 or 5 seeded kid who has to beat a 2 seed to qualify for state and will not make it to state because of a Catholic schools belief that they have to forfeit to a girl. This is a bad thing for the sport. A young man has worked all year and his bracket is blown to heck because of a belief. It is not the girls fault, it is not Mill Valleys fault. Under the rules it is the churches fault. I am a catholic and if the catholic schools dont believe in competing the same as everyone else they should not be allowed to compete. The truth hurts but follow the rules like everyone else or dont be allowed to compete. Again the State has failed the kids... This isnt about money, the church, egos, coaches, or parents. It is about the kids and they are the ones that get hurt while those who can do things correctly and not stepping up and doing what is right.

I won't be censoring this topic, because quite frankly, this forum is very boring right now. There is legitimate discussion taking place and I do not need to remove comments I disagree with or call people names that I disagree with, because then I would be no better than the worthless liberal media that consistently slanders those who disagree with their agenda.

Part of being Catholic is the inevitable crucifying coming from the ignorant and uneducated who assume that every priest is a child molester. These people (almost always anonymous, of course) love to find flaw and exploit those flaws because of either hatred or jealousy. The Church believed erroneously that it was too big to address a problem that exists in every culture and it has paid and will pay dearly, as it should for trying to make it go away. The sexual predator rate is far higher amongst teachers than it is for priests or other church ministers.

Being Catholic is not an easy choice. It requires a level of discipline and faith not found in many other Christian faiths and that is never more evident during Lent where self-sacrifice, penance and service are a daily commitment. It is rooted in a tradition traced back to the first disciples of Jesus Christ and has existed over a 2,000 year history; it has not been without flaw. The United State has been in existence for 1/10 as long as the Church and look at how radically this country has been transformed in that time. I will allow you to determine whether it has been for the better or worse.

Most people bail from the Church because they want to have their cake and eat it too. And why not they say, my relationship with Jesus is my own and no one should be able to tell me otherwise. Church is boring, they say, I would rather be entertained. Do I struggle with some of the doctrine of the Church, you bet, but I would I be better served by creating my own church that aligns better with my own personal beliefs, No. Part of the strength of the Church comes from the discourse within and the realization that we as a Church are all working towards the collective goal of strengthening our community, our family and our relationship with God and I commend the Church for not falling into the trap of relativism which is easy and popular to do.

All that being said, these decisions are made with the intention of preserving a relationship of respect between men and women. It seems like a battle that is ultimately not worth fighting by the Church and I am disappointed that the diocese has not put a little more thought into it. Do we know for certain that these matches will not be allowed to happen? Who has made the official decision? And what is the actually basis for the decision? If it was here, I would spend a week with the bishop debating the topic and not leave until I was completely educated on the matter. He knows I would do this too. So I guess we will see what happens, but at the end of the day, what is flawed with trying to to instill modesty and respect for women in our children?

If any of you are ever in Hays, look me up, I’ll take you to Mass with me so you can see that the place is not filled with molesters, hypocrites and thieves and I’ll answer any question you may have. Then I will take you to Gella’s for an IPA because, well that’s what Catholics do.

I know many of you love our liberal government, but nobody redistributes more wealth than the Catholic Church.

Regardless of your circumstance, good luck to all of the coaches this weekend. I am jealous of you all.

Hey Bill, as a liberal who didn't say a thing bad about the catholic church, priests, you, the decision, or any other thing, and as a guy that went to Hays at one time, I thank you for slandering liberals to make whatever point it was that you were trying to make there. Not sure why it was necessary but if it made you feel better, then I feel better for you.

1.1 billion dollars ,375 cases and 1500 victims. That's what offends me. The money meaning more than people's lives.

I didn't slander liberals at all. You realize I am a KU grad. The media is liberal and so is our government, those are facts. I used the term liberal as an adjective. The Church being neither, makes it a popular target as witnessed on this topic where the discussion is on a rule regarding wrestling girls and people took that opening to take pop shots in areas completely unrelated. So I gave my opinion, plus posed a few questions related back to the original topic. What's the problem?

The funny thing about saying "no disrespect", is that you inevitability do. Do you have a daughter? If so, if she told her daddy that she wanted to wrestle, would you forbid her? What kind of a lesson is that? I have been around this sport for 35 years as a wrestler, coach and now as a father of wrestlers and my philosophy has always been to treat my opponent across from me with the same RESPECT whether they were male, female, black or white. They get the same intensity, the same crossface...because that's what they deserve when they decide to step on the mat! These boys and girls that wrestle spend all season working, sweating and sacrificing for that respect. To take that away is an utter travesty. I have a daughter that will be a freshman next year that loves watching her brothers wrestle. Will she want to wrestle? Probably not. But if she does, I will support her because as of now she has the right to compete with the boys...and that's my job as a father...support my children. XGHSWC...I respect your son's decision, as I would any others, and would stand beside you arguing your case if need be. Anyway, I apologize for the long-winded post and I wish the best of luck to ALL wrestlers strappin it on this weekend. I myself, will be paying close attention to the 6a 170 bracket @ BVNW.

Keith Heniss

Bill the point that I was trying to make with sarcasm is that it might be difficult to take seriously, your indignation over these generalizations made about the catholic church, when you seem to have no problem at all making them about political beliefs or the ideology of a particular school (KU). Hard to have your cake and eat it too.

I was not being sarcastic. The media, the adminstration and my beloved KU are liberal. The Catholic Church is not. These are facts.

Bill, I will let you do all the labeling here. I have no idea what any KU administrators political beliefs are any more than I know or believe that all catholics have the same beliefs as you do. I am certain that there are many in the "media" that are on both sides of the political isle. I was the one being sarcastic. I was trying to illustrate that bias and generalizations are just as repugnant no matter which side of the political or religious spectrum you pride yourself on. Evidently I did not do a good enough job of conveying that point.

there have been a lot of wrestlers who have been 0-2 and qualified for state. And yes there have been 3 man brackets where someone was 0-1 and qualified for state. If she does lose and has a forfeit, it is my understanding she would actually be 1-1. If SJA/STA are seeded 2/3, potentially the boy will be the person with the 0-1 record and qualify for state.

Also, there may only be 4 people in the bracket.

There are six in the bracket. By random draw the MV wrestler matches up against the 2 seed. The 2 seed will FF and then the 3 seed who had a bye to the semis will FF and that puts the MV wrestler in the finals. Both the 2 and 3 seed will have to win a match, on the mat, to qualify for state. It is funny that it is ok to score team points for a FF of this nature but not for the 3 seed who really matched up against either Miege's or BVSW's inability to fill their roster which is really a forfeit. You can go back to that thread where a few old schoolers were appalled that I take the stance that matching up against and open should AUTOMATICALLY earn your team points not after you win a match on the mat. The 3 seed will be robbed of 4 team points when he forfeits the semis. This is an antequated, out dated mindset. Fill your rosters or suffer the consequences of giving up points to those teams who do!

Should have clarified my question.

Will she be the first wrestler in a 6 "person" bracket to go 0-1 and qualify for state?

She will be 1-1 at worst.

gee it appears that seeing in the furture is also one of Chiefs talents. no one has stepped on the mat and he has a wrestler already losing.

She will receive 2 Forfeits to the finals. Where is the victory?

Thank you.

She is on the front side. Her opponents are on the backside. She showed up to wrestle, they chose not to wrestle. She gets the victory. So she will be 2-1, if she loses, going to state with a winning record at regionals.

Side note. Chief and I are discussing this via text. Im just highlighting some of my points.

The standing criteria that I have always seen is if the whistle blows to start a match, it counts on your record. If a wrestler weighs in then gets sick and goes home. He does not receive two losses on his record.

FORFEIT—In a dual match, a forfeit is received by a wrestler when his opponent, for any reason, fails to appear for the
match. In order to receive the forfeit, the wrestler must have made weight, be dressed in a wrestling uniform, and appear on the mat.

In a tournament situation, once a wrestler has made weight and appears on the bracket, if for any reason he fails to appear for a match, it is a forfeit. In order to receive the forfeit, his opponent shall have made weight, be dressed in a legal wrestling uniform and shall appear on the mat. A forfeit shall eliminate a contestant from further competition in a tournament.

EXCEPTION: When the forfeit is because of an injury or illness which occurred during the tournament, the tournament
director, in consultation with available medical personnel and the coach of the injured contestant shall determine
the contestant’s ability to continue. Extenuating circumstances concerning the injury or illness as it relates to default or
forfeit for scoring purposes, shall be considered by the tournament director. A competitor who is injured in a match and
because of this injury is unable to compete in his next match is not to be denied the opportunity to place in a tournament
and score points for his team (refer to Rule 10-2-4, NFHS Rule Book). Therefore, if the injured wrestler is allowed by the
tournament manager an opportunity to place by forfeit, he does not need to appear on the mat. (Refer to NFHS Casebook
Situation 10.2.4 and 10.2.5.)

But both of these wrestlers will wrestle on the backside later in the day. A wrestler cant pick and choose who they will wrestle to keep their record pristine. A wrestler cant take 3rd and be undefeated just because they refused to wrestle the 1st or 2nd place wrestler.

Having said that, I have never seen a wrestler who is sick or does not appear for a match, record both that match and the match on the backside as losses on their record. Nor should the wrestler receiving the forfeit count that as a win on their record. There are several in the current rankings who rightfully have not.

BUT they are NOT sick, they are just refusing to wrestle the opponent placed before them. Therefore a loss.

What if they get sick?

Then I would assume they would forfeit their second match also, therefor being eliminated.

So if a wrestler FF on the front side they are automatically done and can't wrestle on the back side?

I had the same question. That is certainly the way the rule quoted above reads . . .

Stomach ailments are many times short term.

If the rule quoted above is true it will not matter they are not going to be able to wrestle the back side and Beeson is correct. I am trying to find this rule but have not yet.

Are you suggesting the administrators, coaches and wrestlers of these Catholic schools will break one of the Ten Commandments for a wrestling tournament?

Keith - First, disagreeing is far from disrespecting. Secondly, I actually have three daughters all if which would be more then tough enough to be successful wrestling, but I do not feel like it is correct to allow them. So If they wanted to I would say no. But they agree with my values. Is in my opinion that to teach boys to respect girls and women it does not go hand hand to have then wrestle girls. I strongly feel that it is not positive for the sport, case in point look at all the negative it has caused. All the people out there looking down at our great sport. Lastly I too have been around the sport for a long time, stepped on the mat 38 years ago as a 4 year old, so it isn't my rodeo either sir.

Tim King

http://www.kshsaa.org/Publications/Wrestling.pdf

They can wrestle on the backside with exception by the tournament director which will happen.

It counts as a win, does not count as a loss.

So she could go 3-0 and take First or 2-1 and take Second. Third place would be 2-0? Ridiculous, if there is a winner there is a loser. How can there be a winner without a loser? Wait for it....EVERYBODY IS A WINNER. I knew that America was working towards that, but didn't think there was anyway,logically, that it could happen. But leave it to KSHSAA, just write it in the rule books that EVERYBODY IS A WINNER. Biggest LOAD OF CRAP I have ever heard.

Beeson is my Hero!!! Tell it like it is.

I see no exception for religious beliefs only for injury and sickness.

Tim-First off, I'm sorry if you feel that I was questioning your experince in this sport. It obviously hit a soft spot as seen by your "rodeo" comment. I simply was saying in the time I've spent around the sport I've tried to respect the opponent across the mat as a wrestler not as a certain gender or race. Secondly, it's not always the disagreement part that can be construed as disrespectful, it's the context of the argument. I personally respect your decision that you would refuse to let your daughters wrestle...and I have know doubt they are tough enough to compete. I just don't agree with that philosophy as a parent to restrict my child from participating in something that she is well within her rights to participate. Now how would I feel about it? I don't know because it hasn't been presented to me. I would like to think I would be 100% accepting and supportive...but I know for a fact I wouldn't just be hardline and say she couldn't. But that's MY philosophy as a parent...just because I don't agree with others ways, doesn't mean I can't respect their views. To me, the negativity that has come to light isn't caused by the fact that girls are allowed to wrestle...it's been caused by a non-wrestling governing body restricting someone from competing. But like I said, just because I don't agree with that view...doesn't mean I don't respect it.

Keith Heniss

" THERE IS NO CRYING IN WRESTLING "

Just on the forums!

Not now. Because there are NO LOSERS.

Men, in my opinion, once they are weighed in and on the bracket, if they forfeit for any reason other than illness or injury, they are out of the tourney. If they are weighed in and on the bracket, it counts as a loss and the other wrestler counts as a win. I believe, unless the rules have changed since I retired, their only recourse is to walk out, shake hands, start the match, and default. That way they have the ability to continue on the bracket without disqualification from the tourney. I have been gone a while and maybe the rules have changed since then, but I believe that to be true. Someone else might have more current information that would negate what I have said, but I believe that is the case. I can't imagine the state making an exception in a regional or a state meet.

Keith - I can agree to disagree. No soft spot, I probably over did the experience comment. I think a lot of us like to use the time period thing a little to much, part of us getting older. I think this day in age the acceptance of girls wrestling boys is much easier then thirty or forty years ago. Maybe the church can donate the money to get a girls division of their own and can help resolve several issues all at once.

Tim King

Which makes it very simple. You are ill and default. You take medicine. You feel good enough to wrestle on the backside.

Exactly. Dang I'm glad I was right on that. (That was for you Richard).

If you don't know or care to take the time to verify then please refrain from posting was is merely an opinion at this point on an issue that is very important to these wrestlers. You want to add insult to injury? These kids did NOTHING wrong. They are innocent victims of a policy that was not in practice and there was not any certainty to until very recently. Everyone says they are in wrestling "for the kids" but I see plenty of posts are here that a directly pointed towards hurting kids. So many uneducated posts have been written with no one willing to do the research. Surely everyone knows that the Wichita and Salina archdiocese permit boys to wrestle girls. This could be the tipping point for major reactions to this policy but in the mean time two of the best wrestlers in the state at this weight are being victimized by a political/religious stance by one man. Be considerate of the complexity of this issue and the innocence of these two wrestlers. And, for the record, I strongly feel it should be a gender specific sport. It is in Texas and it will never really grow in Kansas until it is. So, if you want a fight to fight, push KSHSAA to add wrestling for girls making this sport MALE only.

Now that is something I agree with!!

Originally Posted By: BSD
I see no exception for religious beliefs only for injury and sickness.


Which makes it very simple. You are ill and default. You take medicine. You feel good enough to wrestle on the backside.
_________________________
Eric Johnson

www.scienceprovesit.com

Acts 4:12

So the church and school says they are not allowed to wrestle against girls but it is ok to lie about it. Is the tournament director going to allow this to happen when he knows it is a lie. What about the two kids they will face on the backside. They have done nothing wrong but follow the rules but they ( their coaches, team, fans and family) are suppose to say nothing.

Anyone ever hear of Seperation of Church and State?

Yeah . . . but they are quite inconsistent about it. Pull out some money and read what it says on it . . . "In God we Trust".

Come down to JC and see our nice granite monument of the Ten Commandments right in the front lawn of one of our gov't buildings.

Personally, I am a God-fearing/believing man . . . but I also have respect for my 'brother in Adam' who does not believe in the Lord.

Sadly a bar is usually a better place to find a genuine and loving person that will just listen to you with empathy . . . if you are sharing a problem with him/her . . .

Yes, Yes, and Yes again (this is in response to Wills last post)

Cokely, I have idea what you are talking about. I read the rule before I posted that and it hasn't changed. As usual I will reserve the right to think or post at will. Nothing anyone says on here will have any effect at all on what happens to any of the kids anyway. No idea what I said that offended you, I think it is unfortunate for all of them, girls and boys.

Like I said, I was speaking hypothetically. My son is done with HS and is wrestling in college now. He did not go to a private school so we never had to deal with what surely would be quite a moral dilemma I imagine. I am sad for those that do have to struggle with this conflict and I hope it works out. I am also happy for them though if that is what they want and I respect their commitment to their faith. I was just saying for me, my son getting his just deserts would be the most important thing. I would never be in that position and/or would never put my son in that position unless that is what he wanted. But I'm glad to hear that you would stand by me if we were in that predicament. Thank you. I do think it is incredibly ridiculous though and perhaps even selfish that this conflict even exists although I am definitely not wanting to be disrespectful or pass judgement. Best wishes to all.

I have read this entire thread, including all of the pros and cons of why or why not girls should be allowed to compete with boys in wrestling. Me? I am opposed to it, on several levels, but one of the reasons that I think that it is a bad idea is that, even if the boy wrestler is not Catholic, and has no prohibition of wrestling a girl (from his church/school), there is (many times) a residual "holding back" on the part of the male, due to upbringing against beating up on a girl. It is unfair to the boy, that's all. PERIOD.

And a second thing - I ask you, how could a girl who won because of these type of defaults due to her gender take any satisfaction in advancing?
I am a competitor, and the last thing that I as a competitor want is to have victory handed to me. I want to EARN it!
And I would venture to say that ANY competitor feels the same way.
So how can she feel good about advancing to State and winning (?) second place in the regional when the only match that she wrestled, she was pinned???

Below is the result of the 113 lb classification at Mill Valley Regional today:



You can see that Kali Gracy advanced due to two "injury" defaults, and Mill Valley received 16 team points for a wrestler that won zero points on the mat. The only time that she did go to the mat, she was pinned by the kid from KC Turner!


Consider: The young man from SJA was 18-1 on the season. Do you think that he would have won against an opponent with a 6-6 record? Especially in view of what he did after his "injury" default:

Shawnee Mission South kid got hosed because two catholic wrestlers (coaches/administration actually) lied and said they were "injured". If your religious convictions make you not wrestle a girl, those same convictions must dictate you cannot lie to get around a catholic rule. Once again, STA and SJA show exactly what type of "good catholics" they are.

NO!!! Two kids got hosed out of the opportunity to at least fairly compete for a chance at State. If STA and SJA are members of KSHSAA there should be no special rule for them because of religious beliefs. None of the other competitors would be allowed to forfeit and then continue to wrestle. This is a very slippery slope and the practice needs to be stopped. If private schools want to be members they should have to follow the rules just like everyone else. Had male competitors forfeited to male wrestlers, everyone on this forum would be up in arms because they were manipulating the brackets. Play by the rules or play somewhere else.

Clearly you do not understand the circumstances surrounding this event. This is not a personal rule, a team rule, or even a school rule. This is a rule made by the archbishop. These wrestlers themselves did not decide to do this, a body governing their school made this choice You could have read that countless times in this thread but it seems you refused to.

This was a unfortunate situation that some choices and policies made by those old enough and mature enough should have been smart enough to not let happen. We all know that the bracket could have wrestled as it should have been wrestled. One young man competed all season long, making weight, practicing for one thing in mind to make it to state. He was robbed the winnable opportunity when the bracket was blown up. This is a complete mistake by our sport. It definitely changed the score of the tournament, the placings of individuals, and it will effect the state tournament. The church and the state caused the predicament but adults should have done the right thing. Doing things that do the most for the team or a trophy sometimes is not the right thing to do no matter how hard it is to do. She should have had the opportunity to earn her state birth with a win she had a chance to win. But her qualification will always be remembered as a fluke that shouldn't have happened. Yes the two catholic schools knew the rules and what could possibly happen but again things could have been done to work for the greater good while teaching a great lesson to everyone involved and most importantly the kids. Wins, medals, trophies, pay backs, all of it mean nothing if we fail our youth and our sport. The same consolation semi match would have happen if she walked out and forfeited before Gabe Gooch had to forfeit it could have easily been worked out. But I am sure some hard feelings and justifiable hard feelings probably at that, egos, pride, you name it came into play and brought a decision that seen by a lot was ok. It was by the rules ok, but was it best for the overall situation. In my opinion not. It is all done and nothing can be changed but the State and or the Church need to spend some time getting things right so this predicament never happens again. I really hope these statements do not anger people, it is not the intention of the post. The intent is to try and remind people we are here for the kids and sometimes a black and white approach should not be taken. There are options that are there if we just make the tough calls to use them.

Catholic schools dont have to follow things like rules. They are too busy recruiting good wrestlers from public schools and then bending what rules they do follow to suit their needs.

I understand the situation just fine. I dont care if it was the archbishop who made the rule. STA and SJA must abide by it. The fact that they were allowed to lie and screw two kids out of the right to go to state was wrong.

The SM South kid didn't get "hosed". He beat an inferior opponent in the first round then got smoked by the Turner kid in the semis and by Gooch on the back side. In reality, he got "hosed" by the girl. Gooch and Hensly were going to state no matter what the South kid did. The girl may have taken the South's kid spot.

I think Kali deserves credit for participating with all the attention this has received. Satisfaction or not, she earned the right to participate and trained hard. In my eye's, she stood up for young girls in all sports who just want to compete and have an opportunity.

REALLY? You are going to blame Kali? She showed up to wrestle. She did not manipulate the bracket. STA and SJA are the ones that manipulated the bracket for their benefit.

Bender, it is apparent that I do not understand this, either.

Regardless of the REASON that the young men were unable to wrestle (because of their religious leaders), the fact remains that they, instead of FORFEITING the match, took advantage of an "INJURY" (?) to default. This allowed them to continue to compete by virtue of essentially lying about the "injury".

Not what you would expect from a religion that preaches, among other things, truthfulness.

Bottom line, GIRLS should not compete at this level!

Grade school? Different thing, IMO.

No way the SM South kid should have had to beat Gooch to get to state. Him and Kali should have been wrestling for that spot. Was a injustice to him, her, and the sport. No ifs, ands, or buts it was wrong what happened. But things happen for reasons and if something can be learned from and things changed it will be worth it.

Wondering if Maur Hill of Atchison falls under this leadership? As they have wrestled a few girls this year, including today.

Bottom line Beeson - The STA and SJA kids worked their tails off all year and had outstanding seasons were put in a bad situation today they had no control over. Instead, someone with 12 varsity matches dictated the bracket.

ram, that is where you are wrong. The catholic church (and thereby our catholic schools) dictated the bracket. To say otherwise is nonsense.

No, someone from the church dictated a state ran competition. STA and SJA are allowed to play by a different set of rules than the rest of the state.

Ram - The young lady has no blame what so ever. She worked her butt off all year like everyone else. She followed her directions and gave her best effort. It is an ignorant comment or belief from anyone saying she caused anything. I feel bad for her because of the situation she had no control over either.

I am suprised that no other coaches protested the obvious lie and that the tournament director did not take action.KHSAA is partly to blame for not making sure all rules were followed.

It is sad they had to lie Just like every man/lady on this form has had to do one day or anouther.The main reasion no one said any thing is 1st how can you prove it .2nd it would just hurt the boys.I am betting the boys that got sick probably felt sick any way.

+1 I agree wholeheartedly. KSHSAA should take steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again, including the upcoming state tournament.

If someone from a public school did not want to wrestle a girl, they would have been able to do the exact same thing.

But they did not, STA and SJA did. No hypotheticals. Why can you not admit that allowing them to cheat was wrong?

Then they should be able to do it against male opponents also. Now we are manipulating brackets instead of competing. SLIPPERY SLOPE. How about all wrestlers, wrestle who steps on the mat.

You guys want to blame this on SJA and STA? Get a clue idiots. Parents have been fighting the archdiocese with this rule. Quit pointing fingers at the wrestling programs.

I understand your sentiment, but I think that would be unfair to Gooch and Hensley. Why should they not go to state because of a silly rule? This SMS kid had his chance, and he lost to superior wrestler. I do not think this scenario occurs often enough for girls to be banned from wrestling against boys. There would not be enough to even form a separate sport.

Here is the only CLUE that this IDIOT has...how about if any school can't follow the rules for any reason, they should not have a wrestling team.

How about not wrestling for a school that will not let you compete. There are several schools in the area that would give these wrestlers the same opportunity. And this is not a silly KSHSAA rule, this is a silly rule of the school that they attend. The school is the one not allowing them to wrestle, not the state.

Who should we point the finger at for SJA and STA lying about their injury defaults?

I agree Beeson... It is a choice to send your child to a Catholic school. You must accept both the advantages and disadvantages. For the record, I don't think anyone on here is blaming the kids involved. Unfortunately, the kids are the pawns in this ordeal.

Peanut - do you think those two boys should have had to forfeit out of the meet? Come on again it is about the kids and it should be about getting the situation where the best kids win. There are some stupid rules in school, sports, work, life but that is why we are supposed to be equipped with the common sense on doing what is right. And doing what is right for the kids should come first.

WHo said they lied? Maby wrestling girls makes the boys sick ?

[/quote]


How about not wrestling for a school that will not let you compete. There are several schools in the area that would give these wrestlers the same opportunity. And this is not a silly KSHSAA rule, this is a silly rule of the school that they attend. The school is the one not allowing them to wrestle, not the state.[/quote]

Seriously, cool out man. This hissy fit is becoming a little too much. Why do you even care about these people's decisions on schools?

Thank you for putting those in all caps, it shows how much smarter you are than me, an IDIOT. (I assume this is directed at me?)

Beeson,
I am pretty sure that wrestling is not the number one choice for most parents when picking a high school. I think academics is probably the number one factor, and with a school like SJA or STA, religion is probably a factor too.

And it is Roman Catholic for the money they pay heck they should wrestle monkeys and hey you know what some are not even Roman Catholic any way so wreslte on.

The good news is that the best three wrestlers made it to state in that bracket.

He was responding to being called an idiot by Cokely. Also, we all agree that the sport is about what is best for the kids. However, there are 2 kids (not from STA or SJA) who were failed today because of STA and SJA. The lied/manipulated the rules and now at least one deserving kid is staying home and wont have a chance to compete. Who was the real loser today? I bet it was not STA, SJA, or the brave girl from MV.

I think they should have to follow the same rules that everyone else does. It is obvious that you don't. I am sure you also don't mind they recruit.

No one lied. Get out your rule book a$$whipe. Rule 6 Section 4 Art. 4 Any coach of the contestant or the contestant has the prerogative to default a match at any time prior to the conclusion of wrestling by informing the referee.

Peanut Brain & Beeson, were you able to read and comprehend the above? I am pretty sure neither of you have ever cracked open a rule book. It is SIMPLE, you do NOT have to be injured to default. You can "quit" anytime you want for any reason and does NOT mean your no longer allowed to participate. Now get a life. This soap opera is over. Instead of being an a$$hole you can do something productive like lobby for girls to have their own wrestling so this can be gender specific, male only, wrestling.

Are you drunk, sir?

I fail to see how that is good news Chief. What of the fourth best?

I am almost certain that they looked on trackwrestling and saw where it said Gracy I-D 0:00. They probably could have done more research before all of this, but....

If you would read the post you would see that IDIOT was directed at ME not YOU. My problem is that two kids got screwed. My problem is that if male wrestlers would injury default to other male wrestlers to manipulate the bracket, everyone would be up in arms. My problem is that private schools want the advantages of state activities, but they want special rules for them. This is why I am throwing my hissy fit. The church needs to adjust their rules when wrestling in State activities, the State should not have to adjust their rules for the church. For the record, I do not blame these kids at all. The boys or the girls.

This coming from the man that ranted for a week straight last year because his coach was not regional coach of the year. Come on Will, at least my soap opera has reason. Im complaining about how two kids were screwed, not a grown man that did not care about Regional Coach of the Year.

Well, I am glad you did not call me an idiot. The rest of this post I feel does not apply. This scenario could have happened for a private school, it could have been a kid deciding not to wrestle. It seems there is really no reason to get all up in arms and go attack the "church". I am pretty sure that the archdiocese of KCK's decision to not allow boys to wrestle girls did not stem from some plot to take over the "state"; I believe it simply came out of ignorance. In that, I believe they did not take a good look at their decision and the implications it may have. But honestly, I do not feel bad for the kid who did not go to state, because he had to wrestle someone better than he "should have".

nice mouth Cokeley........when all else fails...take to name calling.......

Peanut, that is all Cokely has is bully tactics. That and an ability to recruit and make it look like SJA had no hand in it...

Bender if those are your true feelings then it is sad you dont have the sports and the kids best interest in hand and are the part of the problem not part of making things better. There is no argument when someone would have wrestled a 500 record wresler and then due to the rediculous situation he know has to beat a state finalist caliber kid. Excuse me but get a clue

Don't worry...I have seen him in person.....we got nothing to worry about

Must be retard night on the forum. All you public school dropouts don't get it. KSHSAA official at tourny directing the forfeits they told us what to do. So only misjustice is #4 wrestler did not get to go because Mill Valley JV (who could not win a match, could not score one point and probably will do neither at state) took her forfeits and her period 1 pin in final. That's okay she was entitlled, just like your free public school lunches.

He would West Kansas mud stomp you.

Thunderolz.. your close but it cant be blamed on her, she did what she was told to do..

Its these other bozos who don't get it.

hahahahaha. Proof there was manipulation from SJA, STA, or both and that KHSAA had direct knowledge of it. Also shows how these pious, catholic people think and behave. Not only did he refer to people as retards, but proceeds to bash public schools. These people dont care about kids or the sport. The only thing they want is to win at any cost.

My problem is that people are getting on their respective soap boxes and crying out conspiracy theories. The circumstances were laid out and everything occurred. The only person I really feel bad for is the girl who now is a figure for this odd scenario. Everyone knew what was going to happen going into this tournament. These scenarios did not force the SMS kid to forfeit any of his matches, he was allowed to wrestle.

And by the way, Peanut, your kid left your program due to unhappiness, they told us the last people who knew was they transferred to. So more public school ignorance on your part. No worries though, if someone did want to recruit they would not come your way, too much spam in your casserole, buddy, so you are safe there.

Yes SJA and STA planned this so they could make sure that they could get lower team scores at their regional (STA almost placed behind Mill Valley because of this scenario), receive lower team points, and prevent one other wrestler to make it to state. You sir, should make a website further explaining your other conspiracy theories.

Direct knowledge, HELLO??? They were f----ing there and told us what to do, DUH!!!

Your posts are beginning to bother me. You are getting drawn in to this crazy public vs private school fight. STA and SJA, as I am sure you know, compete against each other. They did not work together to beat the "ignorant" public schools. The only reason I am saying this, is that people will group me into your side of the argument.

We know they had direct knowledge, which makes it worse. You are not helping out your cause.

Go back to your minimum wage job, the point is they told us how to forfeit, they were there overseeing the forfeit. If you cannot understand it now you never will.

No one is crying conspiracy theory. What this Idiot, a@@hole, bozo, "R" knows is that their is someone to blame, and no one wants to do it so I will. The person to blame is The Church. I did a little research and STA and SJA have been wrestling girls for several years. It wasn't till recently that this rule was changed. The rule was not in effect at the beginning of the year. And THE ALL POWERFUL CHURCH made this change at mid-season. The Church is the one that put these parents, kids, administration, and KSHAA in this spot. The Church is a Bully! KSHAA cant do anything about the SJA and STA not following the rules. If they throw them out or make them follow the rules, then KSHAA will be sued on basis of Religion.

I feel the best option would be for these parents to take their children to a school, public or private that will allow them to participate fully as members of KSHSAA.

Last point, for those worried about this bozo, idiot, a@@hole getting his free lunch. At least post your name. I have.

So no one is crying conspiracies, but you have a "theory" about how the "The Church" conspires against KSHSAA, parents, etc.

I love it when guys like peanut and cmonman get on here an try to make other schools look bad. Jealousy is an ugly trait fellas. SJA and even STA have worked hard to get their kids to state. You guys clearly don't know the whole story behind what happened today or you're just choosing to ignore the truth. You can say our schools recruit, manipulate, or whatever you want to believe but the bottom line is you're jealous of the success these two schools are having. You have no lives and to make your selves feel good you get on here and belittle two programs that have kids that will make farther in life than you guys obviously are.

Congrats to coach medina and coach parks of STA. good luck at state!

Now your just wanting to argue. I don't think that The Church is conspiring against anyone. I think some idiot in charge, made a hasty decision and nobody has the stones to stand up to him. Look at me, calling names now. Late night posting brings out the worst in all of us. I do think it is Ridiculous that The Church has such control of The State. Maybe someone should sue the church for discrimination of women. But I bet they would just write a check, because that's what people with good lives do to us common public school folk.

To win at any cost? I had to forfeit, in what way is that a win? It was not my choice, nor the coaches and im very sure you guys wouldnt wrestle either if it had the consequences of possibly getting expelled and coach being fired.

I am not "wanting to argue", I just do not think this is the case for this point. I agree it was a hasty decision, and that makes it just some decision made without all of the knowledge. I think that you are making leaps from an isolated incident to gripe at a much bigger issue you have with the church. These other issues, probably do not belong here, and posting them on this forum is not going to bring about any real action.

I have no issue's with The Church, negative or positive, besides what has transpired over the last couple days. I just call it like I see it. The kids signed on being able to participate, and half way through the season were told they could not. Two wrestlers missed the opportunity to battle for a true placing at Regionals and a trip to State. Two wrestlers were forced to add a loss to their record. Public Schools were upset because, in their opinion, once again Private Schools do not have to follow the same rules. These are just a few of the problems that the "Man" in charge has created. And if anyone speaks ill of the church they will be punished? Defend him if you want, but this man has hurt this sport, the wrestlers, the coaches, the parents, and public opinion. Something needs to be done so this does not happen again. I can think of at least 6 kids that were hurt from this decision, and that is 6 too many.

Gooch, you are a tremendous wrestler. It sucks you were put in that spot. However, there is another kid who is not going to state because of a rule from a school he does not attend. You know what it takes to step on the mat. For him today was probably one of the worst days of his life.

I am almost positive that SJA and STA have not been able to wrestle girls for a long time, it was just that at regionals, some superiors from their schools were there, or something of that nature. That is sort of irrelevant now though. I am not defending the person in charge, the rule, or anything like that. I am trying to explain how the rules are not different for public and private. If a kid from a public school had to wrestle a girl, and he, his parents, his coaches, or anyone supervising him made the decision to not have him not wrestle the girl, he would have done the same thing as the kids in question today, and then been able to wrestle on the backside. I understand that this scenario is different, thus the only response to this should be, change the rule, allow the boys the option to compete, but I have seen numerous complaints of how people are trying to spin this into how evil private schools have their own agenda of destruction, or that the church has too much power over the state. These ideas, arguments, theories, are insane. This is a very simple problem that has a simple solution. If anyone felt marginalized by this decision, that is life, sometimes people make decisions for you and they have consequences. People have to quit making this out to be some sort of crazy deal. This man just needs to change the rule.

Hello. I looked up the schools in which this involves. Maur Hill of Atchison is one. They wrestled a girl today. So what will happen? They obviously didnt follow the rule. My point is, if nothing happens to them, why dont you all just wrestle the matches? Look into it

That is all I want. Well it would be nice if everyone had to play by the same rules.

That's all everyone wants.

Cokeley.....you make me laugh with your personal attacks. Watching you prance into the gym yesterday, I final got it. it's all about you and making sure everyone knows who you are. You are that sports parent that everyone sits back and laughs at. You need to be the center of attention. You have talented boys. (On a side note, very nice win yesterday by you son). Do them, SJA and the rest of the wrestling community a favor. Take your seat in the stands, sit down and shut the hell up. Parents are not suppose to be the show.

I applaud Chad Beeson for putting his name behind his comments and opinions. On this forum, that means everything. He is a man not a coward. At the end of the day no one is getting paid or not paid because of this forum. It is just our little wrestling soap opera. Tremendous respect to all of those with a real name and nothing to those who choose to hide behind an alias.

Yesterday is over. Lets move on to next week's hot topics!

I am a 'sports parent' and a fan of wrestling for about 40 years. I have visited face to face with Mr. Cokeley. I enjoyed our visit. I appreciate his passion for our sport. Some just talk. Some just 'do'. Some do both. Will does both. He has probably done more positive things for the sport of wrestling in one month than 'Mr. Peanut' has done his whole life.

Keep standing up Will (like I would need to tell Will that)! Keep speaking the truth. The sport (any sport) needs promoters and supporters like Will.

Peanut, what does I final got it mean? Is that a term or did you get your little self so worked up trying to get big bad Will that your brain (peanut) and fingers were tripping over themselves. Not putting your name is as cowardly as the head of KSHSAA being scared to test for PED. Go to the wizard and get some courage, then put your name to it you cowardly lion.

Whoops. You got me....spelling error. Dale....thank you for your thoughts. Since your name is on it I will take it to heart. I do not want to be in the spot light and in turn see no need for you or Will to know who I am.

Did you qualify for state peanut?

A person putting their real name on a post has nothing to do with wanting to be "in the spot light".

It has to do with honesty, integrity, creditability and accountability.

Thank you Dean Welsh for your input

No problem Peanut. Take care.

Back in the day.....did I go to state? Not sure why that would matter, but yes.

No problem coward. What does nice win for you son mean. If you have or are getting an education I would consider getting a lawyer and sueing them.

Since you put your name on it, I will take your advice. Do you know a good attorney?

Does the church just ban boys from wrestling girls or does this apply to all sports? Can they tackle a girl on the football field?

Peanut does not have to reveal his name because people on here will try to publicly bully, harass, and embarrass him. Mr Dale seems like one of those who would, though I don't know him. It does no good to talk about this anymore. KHSAA knew there was lying, yet did nothing. Makes one wonder what other "rules" can be broken without worrying about consequences. Offseason workouts? PED? Recruiting (public schools)? Improper weigh ins? KSHAA has shown any rules they have in place mean nothing in a case where influential people or schools are involved.

Its just Mill Valley wannabees crying, 0 state team titles in any sport.

Thanks to the 10pm news,everyone knows they were forced to lie.

Were told to do it. Involved were Mill Valley coach and AD. Go back to being ignorant parents.

Thunder......unless you sign your real name we can't take you as a reliable source of information.

That being said, please enlighten me on all the state titles that the Alabama of Kansas High School sports has.

Look it up yourself, Wannabee.

This ignorant parent is trying to figure out if any of sentences you just wrote are complete. I can understand the public idiot's not being able to write properly, but Thunderrolz, your supposed to be educated. You also forgot to sign your name, or did you?

Quick question why is it wrong for a parent to use their right to enroll their child in what ever private institution they feel is best for their child. We don't have to agree with whatever religious choices they or the church make. But if you feel strong enough and want to actually point the "by the rules blame" it all falls on the shoulder on the big boys of the Kansas High School Association. Does any of your taxes pay for their funding? If so you should have a voice. Private schools are "private". If you could afford it and your son wanted to be in the best room available would you say no? Just as I was asked if my daughter wanted to wrestle would I say no? To many people seem to use the rules or beliefs when it suits them best but not all the time. This situation better wake the state up into doing something, if they don't they are true hypocrites when the say the care about the kids.. Don't let the negative effects of this situation happen without anything done. Future kids shouldn't have to deal with this in the future.

Tim King

Why not take a truthful stand to the teachings of your church? If the schools,parents, and wrestlers believed they were following the teachings of their church, why not say so instead feigning injury or illness?

Like 4th time we said this, for all you impaired types. KSHSAA told us how to default, we did as told, they were there, Mill Valley was involved and part of the default. Nobody lied, nobody cheated. Its too bad a JV wrestler went to state instead of the seeded kid.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the wrestlers were not allowed to wrestle girls under the teachings of their church, thus the reason for this whole discussion

There ain't much mud in Western Kansas these days, may have to turn on a center pivot for this mud wrestling match.

I sure wish it would rain or we maybe looking at a modern day Dust Bowl. It could lead to the downfall of Western Kansas wrestling as there would be a major exodus to greener pastures.

The consequence was not expulsion but a suspension that would make them in eligible for state and the coach fired. In prior years it was tolerated for the boys to wrestle this is the first year that the arch bishop of Kc has enforced this. Do a majority of the parents agree with it no and it will be a long debate. It is not right for him to hold the boys back. I am also catholic and had 3 boys wrestle, I also have a daughter. There are plenty of sports for her to be involved in other than wrestling.

Peanut, you routinely post acidic remarks. I’m not sure if your Freudian-moniker ‘Peanut’ is related to your mind or your manhood. My kid goes to Aquinas. I love Aquinas. St. James is our rival. Cokeley is not a friend or enemy of mine. He is an acquaintance that I have said ‘hello’ to the roughly five times that I have seen him because I respect what Cokeley has accomplished for this awesome sport. Although Cokeley might be considered a controversial person, I thought that there was no informed wrestling parent in our area that did not acknowledge & appreciate Cokeley’s time & efforts & RESULTS invested into making wrestling a much better sport for all Kansas kids to enjoy. I am certainly thankful for what Cokeley has done to advance this tremendous sport that I never participated in as a kid but have come to love as a dad.

I’m not sure why you “watched Cokeley prance into the gym”. I’m proud to say that I have never checked-out how a guy walks in my entire life.
Why would you even bother noticing who is standing & who is sitting at a tournament??? Not only do you bother to notice this totally-petty, non-event, but then you take the time to write it as if it is of any consequence to anyone besides you.

People that anonymously write trifling, acidic remarks and then claim that they need to remain anonymous because, as you wrote later “I don’t want to be in the spot light” are lying - at least to themselves. We are just a bunch of dads that talk about the great sport of wrestling on this forum. I guarantee that a bunch of paparazzi will not start following you once you own up to your routinely bitter remarks. You should either man-up & sign your name or keep your negative, petty observations for the sole enjoyment of your own dinner table. I hope I don’t find myself wasting my time reading another wrestling-post about which dads stand & which sit, how cute that they walk or what outfit they were wearing.

Kevin Perz

So the Arch Bishop is the one to blame. He picks and chooses what rules to follow and to what extent that they will be enforced. Sounds like a man with questionable morals. Maybe he should step down. And by the way, I have questionable morals, but Im not a leader of a religious group that effects the lives of thousands of people.

Catholic News Agency Article

Girl wrestlers: Boundaries, faith and false equality

Mary Hasson

In high school, I ran cross-country—the only girl on the boys’ cross-country team. Running made me happy and I was good it.

But with no girls’ team at my high school, I churned up the hills with the boys’ team. The miles I’d run with my dad and brothers over the years made competing with the boys’ team as natural as running itself. (And beating even a few male runners on the racecourse was, I admit, satisfying.)

So I get it.

I understand Cassy Herkelman’s athleticism and her desire to compete against the best athletes around. I really do get that.

Cassy Herkelman, by the way, is a 112-pound high school girl, a freshman at Cedar Falls High School in Iowa. The problem, however, is that Cassy competes with high school boys in a sport where success depends on breaching all the natural boundaries of male-female physical contact.

She’s a wrestler.

And what I don’t get is her parents’ decision to let her aim her athleticism and competitive drive at the wrestling mat. I don’t get that at all.

Cassy and another girl wrestler, Megan Black, earned spots in this year’s Iowa State Wrestling Tournament for the first time. But Cassy’s first round match proved to be a test of faith and conviction rather than skill … for her opponent, at least.

Her scheduled opponent, Joel Northrup, was a promising young wrestler who finished third in last year’s tournament. But Joel withdrew from the match, handing Cassy a victory by forfeit.

Why did Joel refuse to wrestle Cassy and, with that refusal, end his title hopes?

Because his faith taught him better than to grapple violently with a girl, grabbing at her body parts for handholds, mentally focused on subduing her. He knew that the sports context didn’t make the contact less problematic. Joel’s strong character propelled him to do the right thing—forfeiting--even though it cost him a shot at the championship he’s worked towards all season long.

To his credit, Joel speaks well of Cassy and acknowledges her athletic talent. But he goes on to say, “wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times … As a matter of conscience and faith, I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner. It is unfortunate that I have been placed in (this) situation…”

Joel’s right. It should never have come to this.

Even if dunder-headed school administrators lacked the common sense to keep girls from wrestling boys, the girls’ parents should never have allowed it. For the girls’ sakes as well as the boys.’

While wrestling moves aren’t overtly sexual and must conform to set rules, wrestling is a contact sport – an aggressive, body-on-body contest. Unlike the jarring, two-second contact of tackle football, wrestling entails sustained grappling, grabbing, squeezing, pressing, and even gouging. As the match progresses, opponents might end up lying on top of each other, wrapping their arms and legs around the other’s torso, or grabbing through the opponent’s legs to flip or pin the other.

“She can take it.” I can hear the argument now. But this isn’t a question about whether a girl is tough enough to physically endure those demands on her body. Certainly an athletic girl can condition her body as well as a boy, and learn the techniques to deftly escape or take down an opponent.

Yes, girls can be fit, well-conditioned, competitive athletes. But that misses the point.

Throwing girls and boys on the wrestling mat together involves more than relative strength or skill level. Girls’ bodies are, well, girls’ bodies, different from boys.’ And that physical difference extends to the way they think and feel, as well as their natural inhibitions and inclinations. Our norms about appropriate physical contact are a way of respecting those differences.

Consider this: 15-year-old girl wrestlers, like Cassy, must allow a succession of 15-year-old boys (friends? strangers?) to handle their bodies roughly, intimately, aggressively on an open mat in front of a crowd, in an atmosphere of adversarial domination. And, in order to win, they must respond in kind.

Do we really want a girl to shrug off this kind of contact? To overcome her innate emotional resistance to having her body handled roughly by random males? To accept an adrenaline-driven male grabbing her face, reaching through her legs and flipping her, pinning her? Or for her to grab a teenage boy the same way?

Do we really want our boys to put their physical aggression in high gear against a girl, “fighting” her, while they simultaneously experience her touches and grabs in sensitive areas?

For a boy and girl to wrestle each other requires each to make internal compromises – mental shifts to overcome the ingrained, rightful boundaries we have about how males and females should interact physically.

I believe it’s a good instinct for a girl to recoil from a stranger’s rough touch, especially in intimate areas, just it’s a good mindset for a boy to pull back from causing a girl physical pain or overpowering her in pursuit of physical dominance.

So what on earth are parents thinking, when they allow their son or daughter to wrestle an opposite-sex opponent? I just don’t get it.

Cassy Henkelman lost her subsequent matches and has been eliminated from the tournament.

She failed to win a medal.

But does she even know what she lost in the attempt?

Mary Rice Hasson, the mother of seven, is a Visiting Fellow in Catholic Studies at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, Washington, D.C. She blogs at wordsfromcana.

If the arch bishop strongly believes mixed wrestling goes against the teachings of the church, then the schools under him should not participate in sports that are of mixed gender. Rule 23 of KSHAA states that at the beginning of each season, schools have to declare whether their sports team will be a boys, girls,or a mixed team. The bishop can then decide whether to eliminate the sport or ban their teams from competing against schools declaring theirs as a mixed team.

Wow, there is just nothing Beeson won't say. I can't imagine actually having a conversation with him. Questioning the Arch Bishop's morals because of this decision. Way out of line.

What is the actual reasoning that all you disagree with? Many have jumped to the conclusion it has to do with sex. Maybe it is inappropriate contact because it is too rough or too violent. Would not most agree that even though boys might play a game of charley horse where we pound the tar out of each other, we would not do it with a female? Would not most agree we would not allow boys to grab a female's private areas in some sort of game even if it was not sexual. There are just some things we do not do with females that we do with males.

The Arch Bishop made a judgement call that females would not be treated in the same physical manner as males. This used to be called chivalry.

I think it is a judgement call that has many sides. Ultimately, it only has one of two outcomes, either they wrestle girls or not. Maligning a faith, Catholic schools, and one of its leaders only shows you are unreasonable and too arrogant to look at all sides of a complex issue.

Disclaimer:

Richard D. Salyer was raised as a Catholic and attended Blessed Sacrament Catholic Grade School in Wichita, Kansas. During my early grade school years at Blessed Sacrament the infamous Fr. Larson (since convicted Priest pedophile) was an educator. Many of young boys knew Fr. Larson was odd and knew instinctively to stay away from him. I was a bit of a hellion as a youth and spent much time at the rectory (Priest home on the school grounds) serving detention with Monsignor Glenn, a gregorious Irish priest. On many occasions, during detention, Monsignor would supervise my after school boxing matches with weighted gloves in order to dissuade my propensity to be aggesive with my fists. Monsignor Glenn did not keep Fr. Larson at Blessed Sacrament for more than a year. I am convinced the Monsignor shipped off the problem prior to having to deal with any issues. Monsignor Glenn was above all an honest and Holy man whose only fault (to my knowledge) was his love of beer sitting across the kitchen table with my dad.

Long story short, if you are not Catholic you likely will not understand the teachings of the Church. Many of us Catholics do not always agree with the teachings of our leaders, and I believe all of us want the pedophile priests to be held accountable for their atrocities and any priest covering up these actions should also be held accountable.

With that said, Archbishop Naumann is following the teaching and beliefs of the Catholic Church and too is an honorable man. The wrestlers and families of both St. James and St. Thomas were aware of the policy of the Catholic Diocese regarding the restrictive policy in place regarding boys wrestling girls. This was not a surprise nor was it a policy change recently brought about. The Wichita Diocese has a similar policy however it is less restrictive. Some may say the rules should be the same for the Kansas City and Wichita Diocese however, this agrument is similar to stating the laws of Kansas should be the same as that of Missouri or Oklahoma.

In closing, priests are men, men are fallible and not perfect, and we all will make mistakes. A boy forfeiting a match to a girl because of his faith is not one of these mistakes.

I can assure you the Archbishop and the appropriate officials of the Catholic Schools involved are well aware if the Archdiocese did not offer the sport of wrestling, the problem is solved.

Kevin, this a site where we talk about everything wrestling. I and everyone would appreciate you not thinking or talking about my manhood.

Richard, Did you just nicely tell me I was wrong? Careful, people will think your getting soft. Like I said late last night, all I want is for everyone to play by the same rules. If a school is unable to follow the rules they should not be able participate. I am not saying this because of jealousy, envy, hatred, or anything else.

Questioning leadership(not my leader) is wrong? I'm way out of line? I don't think so, leaders being questioned is what built this country. Not questioning them is what lead to the terrible things that Richard spoke of in his post. Questioning keeps people honest. No one should be given free reign, not even me.

All schools are subject to this rule...

Rule 6 Section 4 Art. 4 Any coach of the contestant or the contestant has the prerogative to default a match at any time prior to the conclusion of wrestling by informing the referee.

SJA and STA did just that and so could any other school.

I just have a hard time with a wrestler forfeiting just because they don't want to wrestle. If an average wrestler forfeited to a superior wrestler everytime they had to wrestle, people would think poorly of the average wrestler. And those now saying this is no big deal, are the ones that were complaining to begin with.

Just as long as you stop bringing up the false claim that they don't wrestle under the same rules.

Did they default or forfeit as the rules are different?

Chief, simple question. The rule you quoted seems to imply that a match would have to be started. ( wrestlers appear, shake hands and the whistle blows to start the match) what am I missing?

While I am not Chief I will provide the appropriate rules definition.
NFHS Rules:
Section 7 Default
Default: A default is awarded when one of the competitors is unable to continue wrestling for any reason.

Section 13 Forfeit
Forfeit: When the opponent, for any reason, fails to appear for a match. In order to receive a forfeit the wrestler shall be dressed in a legal wrestling uniform and appear on the mat.

"Continue wrestling" would imply that the match had already started

Richard...TY.

So yesterday, neither the STA or SJA (as well as the MV wrestler) came to the mat to start the match. By the definition you provided it appears it was a forfeit. but then again the MV wrestler did not appear on the mat to receive it.

Both matches were scored as Injury Default.

So. The matches started as the rules state "a default may only be awarded after the match has begun"

Richard.....you are the man.....simply answers to simply questions. Just as some of us have questioned......their was no injury by either wrestler. Not that complicated.

Section 17 Article 2
Match: A match begins when the proper wrestler reports to the scorer's table in dual matches and tournaments until the conclusion of wrestling. The conclusion of wrestling occurs when the time expires at the end of the third period, when the overtime ends, or when a fall, technical fall, disqualification or a default or forfeit occurs.

Richard....just an FYI.....be ready.....you about to get blasted for disagreeing with the powers at be of this form page. And just for the record.....are you jealous of or do you envy the private schools?

Regionals are over time to move on to state!! How bout some predictions??

Kevin Seybold

I was not at Mill Valley. If the events are as you describe and neither wrestler reported to the scorer's table, the match should have been scored as a double forfeit. It is my understanding, and again I was not involved, the KSHSAA provided guidance on the way to handle the matter. If the guidance provided by KSHSAA was followed and neither wrestler reported to the mat, it appear to be an approved NFHS rules violation.

This is not Richard's first rodeo and Richard has broad shoulders and thick skin. I have no issue with individuals who disagree with my opinion. I only ask for honesty in discussion. My blunt style of communication has led to disagreements among forum members on this talk forum and I do try to respect all but one individual and that is because I caught him in a mistruth. If an individual tells a mistruth how will you ever know if he is telling the truth?

In the rule book it is NOT called injury default.

Rule 6 Section 4 Art. 4 Any coach of the contestant or the contestant has the prerogative to default a match at any time prior to the conclusion of wrestling by informing the referee.

There is not a requirement to be ill or injured. You can simply default. Everyone was on board with making sure the proper procedure was handled. Mark Lentz was there to approve the instructions and procedure. Both wrestlers checked in to the table and at that time the coach informed the official that the respective wrestler would be defaulting. Proper procedure was followed.

This is NOT the first time this has happened. It occured at the Iowa state tournament last year when a wrestler, not a school, made the decision, because of personal religious preferences, defaulted to her.

This tournament is OVER as this stream should be too.

Will, my apologies. I was incorrect in saying the didn't report. I was looking for the traditional walking to the center of mat and having your hand raised. With all the action yesterday I must have missed them raising the MV wrestlers hand next to the table.

I see nobody to blame except KSHSAA. Bishop Miege was suppose to host the regional tournament. When they found out a girl would be involved they informed the state not only could any of these schools wrestle aginst her but also that they could not even host the event. So my question is what if a school said the same thing about a opponent because of their race or religion. Not only did KSHSAA allow this discrimination to happen but also coached them on how to break the rules to get around it. Discrimination is wrong no matter who it is against and a state organization should have never allowed it to happen.

It is not discrimination. It is a choice. Was the MV wrestler injured because of the decisions? NO! Do we need have an attorney jump on here? NO RULES WERE BROKEN

Section 17 Article 2
Match: A match begins when the proper wrestler reports to the scorer's table in dual matches and tournaments until the conclusion of wrestling. The conclusion of wrestling occurs when the time expires at the end of the third period, when the overtime ends, or when a fall, technical fall, disqualification or a default or forfeit occurs.

Will, Tried to PM you but you are over you limit.


I laughed when you state that "This tournament is OVER as this stream should be too"

You have beat your share of dead horses... so I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Good luck to all at state.

Mark

Definition of DISCRIMINATION

1
a : the act of discriminating
b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently

Did they treat boys and girl differently?

I must confess to being guilty of beating the dead horse, the goose, and if I could find the gander would be guilty of beating it.

BSD.. perfectly put This should be forwarded by several coaches to the state admins.. all of them

Richard, thank you for posting the article. With the way the story is told no one should take any of it as quick stabs. It is well put and I see it exactly as she puts it. From a lover of the sport, a past wrestler, past coach, and a father of three daughters. Until someone could prove to me that the rules allow this to happen for the better of the sport versus a public way of pushing a different agenda because they can I will always feel the same way as the church and this young man. Thanks again - Tim King

The 18-16 SMS kid got robbed. Have to assume if they had wrestled, the the 18-1 STA kid would have beat the girl in the opening round--setting up STA VS ST James in the seond round. With the loss the girl would have gone to the backside, got a BYE and gone to the loser semi-final match. The other wrestler in the lozers semi should have been the SMS kid, and in all probability would have beat the girl to advance to the 3rd/4th place match and a trip to the state tournament. Both Catholic school wrestlers would have undoubtedly qualified for state--but with iout all of this malarkey!

If anyone was injured it was the SMS wrestler---should have had a match in the backside semi to wrestle the girl. The girl was not hurt--she benefited by being rolled forward to the championship match---and to State..

That is the truly sad part of this whole situation, the consequences of these perfectly legal defaults affected 3 wrestlers and not just the two that defaulted.

WillyM,Thank you for that insight. You may have a future as an investigative journalist

^this

Never said questioning leadership is wrong. I expect the people of Ark City to do it every wrestling season. I said your reasoning was wrong. I took issue with the method you used to support your complaint. Seriously, you should stop setting up straw-men, knocking them down, and then claiming victory.

I will sleep well tonight as this thread has worn me out. Don't forget to watch tonight's episode of The Walking Dead. It will prepare you for things to come:=}

Hey what if a girl from STA or SJA wanted to wrestle? Bet a bunch of priest would doo doo wouldn't they?

If the schools do not receive federal funding, they are not required to abide by Title IX, so they do not have to allow girls on their team.

Title IX doesn't mandate that girls get to wrestle.

Did you know that when boys play volleyball, the nets have be raised and they aren't allowed in post season play. Discrimination has no bounds.

Communion wafers taste good

Ok, I'll bite. How was my reasoning wrong? You seem to take issue with everything I say. I haven't claimed victory over any straw-men lately. Do you hang out with Straw-men and Tin-men? Cowardly Lion. You do alot of Roaring with out having the courage to sign your name.

You know the Federal, State and Local governments spend a crap load of money supporting these schools thru infrastruct improvements and maintenace. They may not get direct government funding (they do enjoy tax-exempt status) but, they would not exist without the government spending on roads, etc.

Federal Food program being an example of federal money that I will bet all private schools happily use. I at least know of one that uses it.

In Wichita the City of Wichita does provide maintenance on the streets which lead to both Bishop Carroll Catholic High School and Kapaun Mt. Carmel Catholic High School as well as Wichita Independent, Wichita Trinity, Wichita Collegiate and all the private grade schools. With that said, the City of Wichita maintains these streets not because they provide transportation to these schools but because they provide transportation to every business and every neighborhood to the North, South, East and West of the schools. The parents of the students at these private schools are also taxpayers who are paying for the infrastructure improvement of which you speak as well as the taxes which support your public schools.

Communion wafers give me gas

What is it called? Everyone seems to be calling it Injury Default. If not for an injury why is it in the rule book. If wrestlers are weighed in, bracketed, checked in, and not injured, then refusal to wrestle should mimimally be a forfiet, or perhaps even a DQ. If the two coaches were involved in the decisions to default under false pretenses than they are also guilty, should be DQ and forced to leave the building. This incident has a terrible smell. Exceptionally bad, bad sportsmanship. Do the announcers read the KSHSAA Sportsmanship blurb before sporting events at parochial schools?

Just catching up with this post and read the threads.



1. I find it amazing a Bishop can dictate policy like this when there is no precedence anywhere else in the country. Maybe some ego here. And BS to do it in the middle of the season. I would seriously consider sending kids to a public school.

2. How can you say a kid with an 18-16 record got robbed.

3. I posted the article on an the Indiana wrestling thread, and had various responses but they were utterly amazed that this would happen. There is no policy like that in Indiana.

4. Saw a girl in Indiana last week that would go deep in the Kansas tournament and IMO would place in any of the 4 classes in KS.

5. Until the girls have their own class, then people need to get over them wrestling boys. These girls work hard and will beat some boys, and the boys are going to have to pull the old boot straps up and move on.

I find that remark hard to believe.
What was the girl's name, school, weight and classification?
Did she wrestle in the Indiana tournament? If so, how did she do?

Answers appreciated.

[quote=BulldogAlum][quote=fan of the sport]Just catching up with this post and read the threads.






4. Saw a girl in Indiana last week that would go deep in the Kansas tournament and IMO would place in any of the 4 classes in KS.



I find that remark hard to believe.
What was the girl's name, school, weight and classification?
Did she wrestle in the Indiana tournament? If so, how did she do?

Answers appreciated.

The girls name is Kayla Miracle. She wrestles for Culver Academy and wrestles 120 pounds and is a Junior. Her nickname is the miracle girl.


Wrestling credentials: Last year was first girl to qualify for state in Indiana. Qualified at 106 lbs. This year got upset at Semi-state at 120 lbs but took 5th in Semi-state tournament and was alternate to state.

If you know anything Indiana has one class and qualifying at state is easily equivalent to placing in state in Kansas. Note here semi-state had partipation of over 80 schools and she took top 4. I heard she is highly ranked on womens USA wrestling team.

Beeson,

Because you challenged someone's morality over a decision that has much gray area. One can be moral, regardless of which way you see the decision.

I reply to you based on the law of averages. You post so often, usually saying something controversial, that you can't help but say something I disagree with. Plus, it's so much fun.

I farted again

Good enough for me, but I would say that having set rules and enforcing them only on occasion is not a gray area. The rule is there in black and white. There was not decision to be made, the rule should have been enforced from day one. Just how I see it.

She'd be the first one if she did. Kansas has never had a female state placer in wrestling. Several state qualifiers but none of the girls have placed and only a few have even won a match.

I believe Samantha Gonzales of Lakin is the only girl to win a match in the KSHSAA State Tournaments when she pinned her opponent in the consolation 1st round in 2008 at 103 lbs. in 321A.

Krista Revelle of Jefferson-West also won a match in 2011 at 125 lbs. in 4A but that was because of a default to a Topeka Hayden wrestler, so I'm sure it was because of similar circumstances as this topic relates to.

Now Kansas has had several female wrestlers who have been successful at the national level (Revelle, Brooke Bogren, etc.) when competing against other females, but there has yet to be a girl who has placed at one of the KSHSAA State Tournaments.

It may happen some day, but I do not foresee it happening in the near future. Girls have placed in brackets against boys in state tournaments like Alaska and Vermont where wrestling is not contested at the level of Kansas and Indiana. The glass ceiling will be broken in Kansas, just not this year.

Does Title IX even apply to high schools--don't think so!!!!

I think the Title IX intent was to create through sports more collegiate scholarship opportunities for females.

Well said Richard!!

Title IX applies to all aspects of education receiving Federal Funds, yes that means high schools.

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination
in education. Title IX says: "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from
participation in, be denied the benefits of or be subjected to discrimination under any education program
or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

OK.

Then perhaps we need a KSHSAA rule in wrestling similiar to the rule in volley ball: no boys in state level VB competition , no girls in state level wrestling competition. Problem solved!!!!

How about softball. Can boys play softball if their school has no baseball team. Fast pitch softball is a great game. When and where I grew up many many small schools had boys softball teams. plus, mens fast pitch was a big game. Then came slow pitch softball and beer drinking and girls took over the sport.

Title IX, whether you agree with everything in it or not, only applies to women/girls. Girls can play football, baseball, and wrestle. Boys can't play girls only sports, in the 1st 20 years of Title IX girls participation in sports went from 300,000 in high school to 2.78 million.

And I don't think there is a problem to be solved. Girls have a right to wrestle, boys/schools have a right to not wrestle girls.

I am not 100% sure of this rule. But I do believe that if there is a similar sport offered at the same time, the male or female must compete with their own gender( I.e.: baseball/softball.)

Just another reason why we need to push our high schools to add female wrestling to the sports program. Girls wrestling is a fast growing sport in the world. (or was until the IOC decision). We even have a college in Kansas that has girls wrestling, but no high schools with girl’s teams.

Per Title IX, you are wrong:

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination
in education. Title IX says: "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from
participation in, be denied the benefits of or be subjected to discrimination under any education program
or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

So, let me make sure I understand this "RIGHTs" issue. A girl has the "right" to wrestle. Boys have the right (religious or personal)to reuse to wrestle girls. The SMS boy had a right of expectation to wrestle in a state sanctioned tournmant wherein the wrestlers were bracketed on some estimation of their relative skills, experience, training, physical ability, etc. It appears the girl and the two Catholic wrestlers got to exercise their rights, but doing so they stripped the SMS boy of his expected rights.

Rights. Everybody has some-evidenty some have more rights than others--or to rob someone of their rights. We have just described the problems of this country. Everybody wants his or hers special right at the expense of someone else. Basically, if everybody has rights than nobody has rights. The dogma associated with rights is what is argued everyday in every governmental body in this country. GOD or whoever help us.

I believe South Dakota and Wyoming have state laws that prohibit boys and girls from wrestlind each other, I could be wrong of course, but that would show that Title IX does NOT give girls the "right" to wrestle.

I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I keep hearing about this SMS kid that got "screwed" out of a chance for state. He did get to wrestle, yes? So he was banking on beating a girl for his ticket to state? Then what? and who guantees that he wins this match, I don't know anything about any of them.

I have been in several regional tournaments where a questionable slam/injury default (where the slammed kid later wrestled, hmmm?) sent the slammer (usually a high seed) to the back bracket and really blew things up, that's why if you play the bracket and things go haywire, those are the breaks.

I had a senior lose in a consolation semifinal, to an underclassmen from a private school that transferred in that year to wrestle and was wrestling at a different school in a different classification the next year. I suppose the argument could be made that had that other kid not switched schools around, my kid, who showed loyalty to one school for all four years would be going to state. Bottom line, we had an opportunity to make it to state and didn't get it done. We got over it and went on to bigger things.

You all can quit crying now.

Mr. DeWitt,
If KMC makes the trip back to Hays for their tournament next year I would love to meet you. You seem to be a straight talker and I find that to be a rare and admirable quality.
I wouldn't mind taking you up on that Gella's offer either especially if I could order the stout rather than the IPA.

Sounds like a plan. I will buy.

I would even invite Westphal to join us.

Can I come? I like free beer but who doesn't especially if Dewitt is buying

Alex, time to move home anyway, you can take over for Coach Froh'

I have read a week of these posts on this subject. Most of the opinions expressed in this thread are incorrect from a legal standpoint. I am a practicing attorney, I teach Constitutional Law at the college level, and I assure not one post is accurate regarding the legality of this matter.

Title IX has no application here. While the text of the law says it applies to all educational institutions receiving financial aid, the purpose of the act was to reform post-secondary education, and that is where almost the entire application judicially has been. So, those comments which reference that point here are incorrect. (I understand there is pending appellate activity that would make Title IX strictly inapplicable to secondary education).

The law you need to google is the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based on race (3 deliniated categories), religion, and gender (applicable here). For those amateur lawyers, (there seems to be quite a few here), look up 42 USC 1983, that is the statutory reference.

This law says you cannot discriminate, in public schools, based on gender. This law was discussed and confirmed in a 1973 court case involving a female cross country runner at Wichita Southeast HS who tried to run on the male team. The court ruled that she was allowed to participate, thus making gender discrimination in public schools unlawful in Kansas. This rule of law does not apply to private schools, who are allowed to discriminate on the basis of gender. See Gilpin v. Kansas State High School Activities Ass'n, Inc., 377 F.Supp. 1233 (D.Kan. 1973).

That is the current status of the law in this area. My recommendation is that if you want to play pundit, you should understand the subject before you try to explain it. So far, the only person who has made a an accurate technical comment was Jerry Dale regarding his flatulence.

Tom Williams

So Public Schools can't discriminate against Private Religous Schools that are discriminating on the basis of Gender? Is that correct?

I think this is the biggest joke to think the SMS kid got screwed. He had two matches to make it to state and lost. He got his right to wrestle and lost just like all the other kids that competed this weekend. And you're making a huge assumption to say that he would of beat the Gracy girl. His record was barely over .500 and the Gracy girl was at .500. Based on record this would have been a close match. Willy you're climbing up the BS tree on this one.

No ones rights were violated here. The KSHSAA provides a fair forum for kids to wrestle for a championship, its up to you to win or lose. The Catholic kids chose not to wrestle, they're fortunate they had wrestle backs. The Gracy girl got to wrestle and she took 2nd fair and square. SMS wasn't good enough to go on.

To be clear, the SMS wrestler was 17-14 and the MV wrestler was 4-5. He was the #4 seed. She was unseeded. There were three wrestlers harmed by the Archbishop ruling. #2 seed Gooch placed as high as he possibly could at 3rd, Tyler Hensley placed 4th instead of 3rd and McQueen's season is over. Meanwhile, with all due respect to her hard work and determination, Gracy placed 2nd while wrestling a total of 1:26, losing the only wrestled match she had. To claim anything different is just pandering.

I farted again

But Tom, why are you just practicing to be an attorney?

...amature lawyers and amature coaches, the forum is full of both of them.

Tom, has the court made a similar rulings on activities involving opposit sex sports where contact is necessary and encouraged?

Or does the 1973 ruling cover all high school sports and activities?

Thanks.

Looks like Gracy may have a first round consolation match with Bishop Carroll. Understand the Wichita Arch Diocese doesn't have the same rules, but would you forfeit out of the state tournament over this ruling by the Arch Bishop?

Also an interesting stroke of fate that Gracy got drawn into the lower bracket. Had she been in the upper bracket one of the wrestlers from STA or SJA would have faced a very difficult decision of forfeiting away a chance at state.

Am I to understand that the ruling refers to inappropriate touching between a boy and a girl?

But the inappropriate touching is OK between two boys?

Serious question identifying the irony.

It is my understanding that the Aquinas, Bishop Miege and St. James wrestlers do not have any decision at all to make if they are scheduled to wrestle a girl in a match. The coaches from those schools are not allowed by the Bishop of the Archdiocese of Kansas City Kansas to permit their wrestlers to wrestle the match so they would have to forfeit the match.

Jerry- I have to practice until I get it right.

The court ruling previously cited made no mention of contact, whether inappropriate or otherwise, and just ruled that girls could compete against boys.

The Archdiocese of Kansas City in Kansas has 5 high schools- Aquinas, St. James, Miege, Immaculata and Maur Hill, if am I not misstaken. I understand the instruction from our Archbishop to only include our archdiocese. I coach at Aquinas, and I know Miege and St. James have complied with the rule, I have no knowledge of the other 2 schools. By the way, Bishop Carroll is in another archdiocese and to my understanding are not operating under the same restrictions.

We are specifically instructed to follow our directive, and to publicly support our archdiocese. I think all of you would do the same, in our circumstance.

Good luck to all at state. Jerry, take some Tums.

Tom Williams

Tom,

I can appreciate the difficult situation this puts you in personally. If you wrestle the kid against the girl, bad things will happen for you. What if this ruling was appealed to above the Arch Diocese level in the Catholic church? This ruling appears to be inconsistent with most of the other regions around the country. I'm not aware of any Arch Diocese's that have made a ruling like this. It looks like this is decision was based on the opinion of one man, not the Caholic church.

It also might of just opened the can of worms nationally too. Some potential ramifications that might occur would affect other sports. What happens if one of the schools in the Archdiocese plays football against a school with a girl on the team, would they have to forfeit the game?

Fan- Such actions are presumably possible, but not really feasible or even rational. From our perspective, we can all individually agree or disagree with the circumstance, but this matter is effectively concluded, for now.

Analogy- Referee's call (see other forum topic). Do we all agree that this young man should suffer disqualification? Probably not, but what can be done at this time?

Take care.

Tom Williams

Somehow, I knew you would. Please eat gas free food this week so we don't have to clear out Hartman Arena.

Easy for me to say this, since I do not teach/coach/etc for a living:

If I'm the coach, I let the boys wrestle, lose my job, and see if Tom Williams, attorney extraordinaire, could get it back for me after the season......

I don't think that was a fart.

Tom,

Yes its done for this year, with the exception of the girl maybe pulling an upset at State and causing a real tough decision. But I can see this situation rearing its ugly head in the future for the you and the other Catholic schools in KCK.

Doug that's an awful big risk seeing that he's just practicing

My two cents...after all these posts, the attacks, the name calling, and the reasoning.
I think it boils down to decisions that have unfortunate consequences. A decision to not allow
competetors to compete based upon religious reasons was made. Agree or disagree,
does not matter. This decision should have effected only the people at those institutuions.
People agree by their membership, to abide by those decisions and possible consequences.
You don't like it ....leave, but if you stay you are agreeing to follow the directives.

Unfortunatly it seems no one at those institutions like the decision mandated to them
(boys can't wrestle girls) and the consequenses (forfeit the match, or get suspended, get your
Coach fired......). This should have been their problem. But rather than suffer, from this self inflicted
consequence. Another decision was made, with help from KSHSAA? According to some,
Adults in charge,both inside the institutions and outside looked to circumvent this Self
Inflicted situation. Another decision, a calculated, well thouhght out use the rules,
to forfeit and avoid the mandate and consequences. A great idea if it only effects you.....
but this was not the case. By choosing this path people outside these institutions were
negativly impacted. That is where this takes a dark path.

Make no mistake, I feel for all the kids involved, none of them wanted this.
They were manipulated just as the competition, the bracket and, results were. That
is why this has caused such a divided and strong response.

This should have been handled in their house. Instead, a decision was made
that shifted their problems to others, and all of this was done by Adults
of strong faith and conviction. This is the part that is really difficult to
stomach. I would hope put in the same situation I would have the
courage to do the right thing, whatever that is.

I don't really have an answer, but as time goes by I would hope the Adults
involved, be it a Parent, a Coach, an AD, a KSHSAA official.......or even a Bishop, will
really look at their decisions, their actions and those consequences, to others.

Purple dad.....best post on this issue. Well done.

Reminds me of Fred Phelps' power among his people... let them wrestle.. are we in the stone age? Is this any different than a white athlete refusing to compete against a black athlete? It is the 21st century... what are we teaching our athletes??? Our KIDS??? nuff said!

Mr. Bennett, that is a very good post. I have decided to comment on the paragraph above, especially the sentence that I highlighted in red from your post. I think that sentence is really at the heart of this unfortunate situation. People are going to be adversely effected no matter what decision is made by the officials in charge.

If that directive from the Bishop had been made for the 2008-2009 season my son and his Aquinas teammates could have been effected. I discussed this possibility with my son a week ago when I first heard of the problem that was developing with the 113 pound class. My son told me that he would have wrestled the girl. I told him the Aquinas coaches would not be allowed to let him wrestle and could not sit in the coaches seat so the referee would not start the match. My son had been wrestling since the first grade. He had placed at state the previous two years. Wrestling was a major part of his life at that point and he really wanted to win a state title his senior year. He would have been devastated to had to give up that opportunity by forfeiting due to the directive from the Bishop.

So what would have been the right answer for my son at that point in his life? I really do not know. I suppose he could have transferred to a public school for his senior year but that would have been a very difficult decision at that point in his life. My son would have probably ultimately stayed at Aquinas a school and community that he loved. The odds are at his weight 215 weight class that he would not have been effected but there was a possibility that he could have been. And if the rule was that once you forfeit that you automatically forfeit for the rest of the regional and would not have qualified for the state tournament that would have been a very difficult and disappointing outcome for him or any other wrestler.

This is just a very unfortunate situation and the bad thing is that due to no fault of their own some wrestler or wrestlers can be adversely effected by it. I really hope the Bishop reconsiders and changes his policy on this in the future.

I have said this twice now to try to help these guys out. I would hope that some kind of answer would be in the fact that a Maur Hill boy has wrestled more than one girl this year. He did it, so what is going to happen? Very least, I would hope the other schools could use this to help their fight. One of his girl matches was at a tourney were another Catholic boy forfeited twice. Another happened at regionals.

Goodness! Could you make a better analogy without bring Fred Phelps into the fold. That "person" is a complete embarassment to the great state of Kansas.

Even his daughter is starting to see the light!!

If this is true what you are stating, there may be an explanation of why it was allowed to happen. I looked and saw that Maur Hill does not have its own high school wrestling team. It is in a Co-Op situation with Atchison High School, which is a public school. From the wrestling picture on the Maur Hill wrestling page of their webpage, it looks like there are about six Maur Hill students who practice and wrestle with the Atchison HS team. The Bishop's directive would not apply to the Atchison HS public school team so perhaps this is why you saw Maur Hill students wrestling girls this year.

Yes they coop with A High, until regionals, then they become their own Maur Hill team. Since the boy was representing Maur Hill at regionals I would assume he would have to follow same rules as the KC boys.

Nothing was manipulated. The National Rules were followed as stated in the book. This is NOT the first time this has happened in the U.S. No one was given special treatment or accomodated. If the rules were not written the way they are then the results would have been different but this was NOT the case.

They are listed on the Kansas Coaches Wrestling site as combined for regionals (See item in red in below quote). I think they are listed as combined on the bracket results too.

They may be listed that way. But looking at the other schools listed I would guess thats just their home town. If they were indeed the same, then Maur Hill would be wrestling in 4a at regionals. Thats where Atchsion wrestled. Also, seperate team photos and MH singlets would point to being a seperate team at regional times. I guarantee they wrestled seperate at regionals.

If Wikipedia is correct, Maur Hill is located in the Kansas City Kansas AD but is sponsored by Benedictine College and is a Benedictine school. Benedictine is autonomous. This is just information I read on Wikipedia, but I believe it would answer why a Maur Hill wrestler could indeed wrestle a girl.

What's that smell?

I saw four priest in Wal Mart this morning...

What is this comment supposed to mean???

Not going to say it Will.

I really really want to but not going to

Must have been some kind of sale!?

I'm not saying it

Help me here Doug

Dug myself a big enough hole for the last few days. Nope!