Back Side

What did I Dulgarian do i just cannot believe this? Please inform.

Illegal slam - believe it!

Any video? Controversial or cut and dry???

Not controversial. The incident was not an accident. The athlete was taken from the mat on a stretcher. I don't believe Dulgarian intended to injure his opponent but I believe he intended to punish him and make him look silly. It back fired in a major way. He was beating his opponent easily when it occurred.

Why would you ask such a ridiculous question? A slam was called, a wrestler was escorted off the mat on a gurney, and you ask for video. Incredibley poor tase!

This was an obvious illegal slam called by one of the most experienced and best officials in this state and someone is wanting to debate it!! Wake up!

Anyword on how the young man from Salina is doing? I hope he is well!

First of all, I am not it Wichita. Second, its impossible to know how serious an injury is by reading a forum. Questions like mine are posed often on here. It is unfortunate an athlete was injured so badly.

Now that two of you have responded so rudely I am aware it was obvious and a young man was hurt badly. Did not want to debate it, just wanted to know more details which have now been provided to me. Baldeagle, thank you for the information.

Jeez.

Jeez is right...a simple, honest question. 1 fair, calm response, and 2 that weren't.

Kid had concussion and was throwing up but think no spinal or other damage. Hope for the best

Jeez is right, think of it as your kid on the stretcher and re-ask the question and maybe you'll see how rude and insensitive your question seems.

Watch match and the other kid didn't want to hurt him just a bad move

Here is how the Salina newspaper described it:

Saint Thomas Aquinas sophomore Isaac Dulgarian was having his way with Will.

Dulgarian, a defending state champion, had 10 takedowns in the first round, after allowing Will to escape over and over. The Aquinas wrestler built a 20-8 lead after one period.

And then things got worse for the Salina sophomore.

Dulgarian shot the leg and tried to slam Will to the mat for another takedown. Will tried to avoid and jerked his body as he was going to the mat. His neck got caught and he remained on the mat after officials stopped the match.

"I don't think it was intentional," Peters said. "He didn't have a way of bracing his fall. The refs called it a slam. It was an unfortunate chain of events. I know Isaac felt bad about it."

Medical staff treated Will for several minutes in the middle of the mat as matches went on all around Hartman Arena. Dulgarian, who was penalized a point for the slam and was later disqualified from the match -- costing him a chance at a second straight state crown -- kneeled in his corner and watched.

Technically, Will won the match, but after being carted out of the arena on a stretcher, his season is over. He has no injury to his neck, Peters said. But he has a concussion, a CAT scan revealed.

Kansas City Star

Aquinas’ Dulgarian won’t repeat as a Kansas Class 5A wrestling champion
Feb.22
Tod Palmer

The Kansas City Star
PARK CITY, Kan. ||
St. Thomas Aquinas sophomore Isaac Dulgarian’s quest for a second Kansas Class 5A state wrestling championship was derailed Friday at Hartman Arena when he was disqualified for an illegal slam that sent his opponent to the hospital.

Leading 20-10 midway through the second period in a 138-pound quarterfinal, Dulgarian had Salina Central sophomore Dayton Will in a clench around the waist.

Will countered with a standing Granby, a flying roll designed to break the wrist lock, but instead Will only made it halfway around and landed hard on his bent neck.

Despite the fact that Will clearly appeared to initiate leaving the floor, match referees immediately signaled an illegal move.

When Will, who was strapped to a backboard and taken from the mat by stretcher to a waiting ambulance, wasn’t able to continue, Dulgarian wasn’t saddled with a loss.

“The bottom line is that it’s a judgment call, but it’s a sad situation with Isaac,” Saints coach Lorne Parks said. “His odds of eventually being a four-time champion were pretty good, so it’s a shame that one questionable call is going to take that away from him.”

Will was awake but unable to speak, though he had movement in his extremities when he was wheeled from the floor and taken to Via Christi Hospital on St. Francis in Wichita.

Dulgarian, who won the Class 5A championship at 120 pounds as a freshman, will be allowed to wrestle in Saturday’s consolation rounds but can’t finish higher than third as a result of the loss.

“I just told him there’s nothing I can do or you can do, but it’s rough,” Parks said. “He’s worked extremely hard over the summer and in weights, but the chance to be a champion again was taken from him

Read more here: http://varsity.kansascity.com/news/aquin.../#storylink=cpy

Not a questionable call by the referee. I understand his coach was advocating for him, as he should, but there are ways to do that without implying his wrestler was the victim of a poor call by a very experienced referee.

And I'm not sure I totally agree with the account written by the Star.

The question was a simple one asking for more details than just merely an "I-D" posted on track. I watched it on the dashboard and saw the match frozen in time for a few minutes. Again, tough to glean details from a bracket with "I-D". I don't think there was any misguided attempt at adding insult to injury, or minimilizing a terrible situation.

No one wants to see anyone hurt, that should be painfully obvious to everyone who botheres to spend time following this sport thru a stupid BB.

we all hope and pray for a full and complete recovery

Thanks for those who posted the news reports - devoid of the panic, and accusations of insensitivity. They simply provided the details that were sought in the first place.

jeez

I assume that coaches, and wrestlers, know that the injured wrestler in these situations can forfeit the match? So long as the forfeit occurs prior to the expiration of the 2 minute recovery time, the injured wrestler can simply forfeit giving the other wrestler--the penalized wrestler--the win.

I'm not going to go into a long-winded explanation of all the situations where someone might want to do this but there are times where the injured wrestler, or his coach, feels that the penalized wrestler should be awarded the match and continue on the winning side of the bracket, or just advance, notwithstanding the penalty and makes it so by forfeiting.

Its allowed by the rules, it happens, and it sometimes works out for the best.

Just something for coaches to keep in mind. And officials as well.

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I was not at the match. The Star makes it sound like the kid that got hurt, got hurt via a Granby attempt . . . that seems totally different from a slam to me. But, it doesn't matter. An experienced ref made a call that most folks that were there agree with. And, we can't go back and change anything. We can just hope/pray that the young man recovers fully and quickly. Time to move on!

I agree with this in certain situations, but in this case, I don't think it would apply. Sounds like Dulgarian was toying with the Salina kid...a score of 20-10 speaks for itself. IMO it is very unsportsmanlike for a superior wrestler to do this to a less talented wrestler. This sounds like it could have been avoided if Dulgarian would have just pinned the kid early in the match instead of toying with him. The real tragedy in this situation is the injury sustained by the opposing wrestler, hopefully he recovers without any major damage.

This is very unfortunate for both the salina wrestler and the STA wrestler, and I hope the salina wrestler makes a full healthy recovery.

As far as the STA wrestlers being unsportsman like I don't see this. Many wrestlers put on take down clinics early in tournaments. This occurs for many reasons. Sometimes it is to get some mat time and sweat going early in the tournament, sometimes it is to get some weight off, etc.... I watched the STA wrestlers at the Hays tournament this year and he did this same tactic the first day, then pinned kids the second day. I do not feel he is a wrestler that shows unsportsman like tactics.

Good Luck to the STA wrestler the rest of the tournament.

Good luck in a full recovery to the Salina wrestler.

Here is the illegal slam that was called. I dont understand why you belive the intent was to make the kid look silly or punish him. I have no desire to embarrass a wrestler of lesser ability. I am simply wrestling, doing what I have trained to do. You can say It was not an accident.. but at the end of the day I show athletes of lesser ability more respect for at least trying.
[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eekNNmqswY&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

Didn't look terribly bad to me, however at the end of the day if you are outclassing a kid and it's this late in the season, why not just get the match over with and rest up for the next one? If it is an issue with "getting a workout to make weight later" which I have heard of kids doing that, then pin him fast and run for the next hour or 2.

In hindsight though...I think the other kid didn't know what to do when his arm was trapped so it got awkward. Watch a real good kid against a not so talented one....I have seen a lot of injuries to the better kid due to the awkwardness of the lesser skilled guy who may go the wrong way on a move.

The reason for not getting the quick fall is for mat time. It may be late in the highschool season. But in my eyes there is almost 6 months of wrestling left in this season!
Your point on the injuries due to akwardness of different skill levels is very true

After reviewing the video, I honestly don’t see anything flagrant. This is very unfortunate for Isaac, as it is evident that he had no intention of injuring the other wrestler. I hope the Salina wrestler makes a full healthy recovery. And congratulations to Isaac, for keeping his focus after this and coming back through the bracket and placing 3rd.

Well put Isaac. You handled that situation like a champion. This was very unfortunate for both wrestlers involved. Continue to set goals and try to achieve them, and continue to have fun with this sport. I think that is the overall goal. I know that Isaac was not trying to hurt anyone, I personally think that it was a iffy call at best. My little brother Sharky wrestled with the same goal as Isaac his sophomore year, to become the single season takedown record holder, and achieved it as well. He wanted to be the best wrestler on his feet ever in the state of Kansas. Isaac comes from the same mindset as Shark. This style of wrestling is not meant to embarrass anyone, just to improve every time you are on the mat, even at the state tournament. I know that this will be a minor setback to Isaac, who as most know has bigger goals than being a Kansas high school state champion. Isaac is going to be one of the best wrestlers ever to come out of Kansas, he is on a different level than 99% of the wrestlers in this state, sometimes that means setting goals different than most. Unfortunately, trying to do something that no one in the history of Kansas wrestling has ever achieved before cost him another goal, a chance at being a 4X champ. I know that a lot of people have said, “its state, you go out there and pin him”, I understand the point that you are trying to make, but some people want more. I am not trying to call anyone out or offend anyone, just defending a 16 yr old kid that I have known since he started this sport and my father coached in his younger years. He is a good kid, key word being kid, that handled this situation with humility and like a true champion and came back to get third. Congrats to him and his grandfather who also handled this very admirably. Looking forward to watching Isaac do great things this spring and summer.

Clint Slyter, Assistant Wrestling Coach Olathe North

Well said Clint !

Dan Gentzler

Wow. I can't believe that didn't happen here.

Dude, you can say whatever you want, but that is showboating, taking a guy down 10 times at a state tournament. Very unsportsmanlike. How would you like to be taken down 10 times?

Having a hard time trying to see your reasoning here Chief.

[/quote] Wow. I can't believe that didn't happen here. [/quote]


I hope your being sarcastic. In reference to the Chiefs comments

Well to be honest I would hate for that to happen, I think that might of actually happened to me in college. But I would also hate to be pinned in 10 seconds as well. Its not about what you opponent likes for you to do to them, i would have liked for all of my opponets to lose to me but that didnt happen, I took some beatings and tried to get better. What is unsportsman like about chasing a record? Is it unsportsmanlike to try to get the pin record, currently owned by Parker Madl with 40. No it was sport is about, great athletes want to achieve great things!!!

If a guy can not work on his feet in a tournament setting at the state tournament where the best kids in the state are supposed to be, when is he supposed to do it. Are you saying do it at a small tournaments where a wrestler may not have any experience and have no idea what is going on.

And yes this happened to me in high school, and I did this to others in high school. When it happened to me it ticked me off, and made me work harder. Remember that not everything is fair in the world. If someone is that much better than you at something. It is time to start working harder. (I am saying this in general, and not implying the salina wrestler.) I am sure the salina wrestler works extremely hard as well, otherwise he would not have been at the state tournament.

Isaac,

I think thats a little arrogant to say the reason the kid got hurt because of difference of skill levels. Maybe you should brush up on your skill level on the rules about unnecessary roughness. I'm not saying this was unsportsmanlike as another poster mentioned, but it was obviously unnessecary, and the referee was spot on. Easy call. The first job of the referee is to protect the wrestlers, and thats why they have rules like this. I understand that you are protecting your rep on the unsportsmanlike allegation, but you're not going to come out smelling good if you complain about this call.

Just think about what happened to this kid, he lost his chance to continue to wrestle and place in the state tournament, he probalbly spent a lot of time in hospital this last weekend, still has a splitting headache and his dad is going to get a large medical bill. And you don't know how this is going to affect him long term, as we have recently found out concussions have some serious long term issues and his future wrestling career and participation in other sports may be in jeopardy depending on how he responds to the concussion. I wont even mention potential long term cognizant affects this could have on him. So who really got the bad deal form this situation.

Do a little research before you make a post like this.

And what did I not research?

An unnecessary roughness call is a judgement call. Can't do anything about it now. It's an unfortunate situation for both wrestlers. However, it is not Issac's job to know every rule in the book. It's his job to go and wrestle. That's all he was doing. It is unfortunate that this all happened. All he wanted was more mat time. Don't criticize him for it.

Dude the call was bogus, the other kid clearly took himself into a dangerous position. There were several slams in the tournament and the refs called the one that a wrestler got hurt. All the others were ignored. Just sayin pin 'em and go on. If you want a record, how about pins or wins? Gotta remember there are 300+ escapes you give up by getting all those takedowns, should be a record for giving up escapes too man.

Well for starters, the injured kid did place. Since you're just a fan of the sport I'm going to assume you either never wrestled or weren't very good. It's not easy for a wrestler of Isaac caliber to just flip a switch a take it easy on kids. When you're that good you just go.
Lastly, don't try to make a kid feel bad by basically saying "because you did that, this, this, this, and this probably happened and its all your fault." Isaac was wrestling not trying to ruin the kids life.

I do not think that Isaac came out and said that to be arrogant, again this is a KID that you are blasting on. He felt bad about the young man getting hurt, he is just trying to defend himself and agree with another persons post. and he is right there are injuries that occur due to lack of wrestling knowledge by a lesser wrestler. No matter how good of a wrestler you are, you cannot control what another wrestler will do when you attempt a move. You can try, but things will happen, this is a contact sport!!! He has taken his punishment in the form of a 3rd place medal rather than a shot at another title, lets let him focus on the future, not further attack him on a public forum.

Since you are going to ignore my PM, I'm going to just say it publicly. If you are a kid from my high school and I find out who you are I promise you you will regret making an account. Stop posting.

Isaac wrote:

Your point on the injuries due to akwardness of different skill levels is very true

fan of the sport wrote:

Isaac,

I think thats a little arrogant to say the reason the kid got hurt because of difference of skill levels.



Fan of the sport;
Where did you quote Isaac as actually saying that?? He didn't say that, you manipulated his general observation & then YOU decided that he directed it to this specific incident. (I have NO IDEA as to why an adult would manipulate a kid's words for their own agenda!). Plus, Isaac is just a kid, a great kid with great wrestling skills. Why would you change a kid's words and then attack him on that false basis?? or any basis???

Kevin Perz

Your not giving you High School Kids enough credit. This is obviously a PARENT, I would bet money on it.

@ fan of the sport

If you're going to adress/confront a 16 year old young man on this forum, please have the decency to sign your name. After all, young Isaac follows the rules of the forum & places his name on his posts.


@ Isaac

It has been a pleasure watching you grow as a young man & a wrestler. Keep your head up and keep up all the good work.

Pete Eck

You're on. 20 bucks says its a kid Beeson.

I got 40 on it being a kid.

rccokeley; thanx for trying to put a muzzle on your thunderrolz.

thunderrolz; I went to public high schools and LOVED them. I ended up with two Lamborghini’s as a result of my spectacular public high school education. My kids went to private high schools. Your arrogant and condescending attack of public schools is despicable. And as I always felt in high school, even “IF” your mommy & daddy make more money than other kids' parents then that does not make YOU any better than the next kid. Plus, you need to stop sleeping during your English classes. Your baseless, conceited posts are embarrassing to any kid that goes to a private school.
Please stop posting.

Kevin Perz

Not understanding how injuries can happen when kids of much less mat time do things totally unexpected is just being ignorant (not a bad thing) and not having spent enough time around the or on the Matt. I totally understand the thought of using takedowns to set up falls and to work some weight down in some instances. But in some instances (such as many times I saw Sharky do) when you are taking a kid to his back and you pull him off of his back that is unsportsmanlike and should be called so. Once in a pinning situation you are required to work for the fall. That is the entire driving force of the sport. If you want to work on takedowns and not get the fall, do not use a move that you can end up in a pinning situation. Call it what you want about going after a record, it is bs and not a good thing for our sport, when you are not being classy, and making someone look bad puts us in the same class as the trash talking basketball players. Taking a kid down at will that is not in the same class of level is not doing anything positive. Yes, Isaac is just a kid, and that is why the blame should have been spent looking at the coach. STA coach wants to put blame on the official when he knows deep down he is to blame. He tells his wrestler to get a few take downs and then end the match. He tells him to be careful that weird things can happen. He tells him to keep the match out of the officials hands. But we all know that the STA head coach is not why these kids are the quality of wrestlers they are, so we should we not be surprised that he doesn't have the sense to remember these things. But we also know why he would make the statements he made in the paper, he doesnt have the manhood to admit where he was wrong. Is very simple, train right, coach right, act right, respect your opponents while winning or loosing, and good things will happen. We cant control others actions, but we can control our own. But as all my posts mention that it is the adults being coaches, parents, administrators, officials, and fans that carry the burden of helping the kids... Show the class and it will rub off. Show the lack there of and it will rub off even faster..

I guess that the drive to be the best at something in our sport is wrong. Casing records is BS and should not be allowed. I guess we need to just stop keeping records all together if it is classless. I guess acording to you Isacc should lose all his matches that way because he is a better wrestler and chooses to show it. I guess Adrien Peterson should have blown out his knee again for tring to rush for the most yards in history. Maybe, Cal Ripkin Jr. should have gotten hurt because he showed up everyday and went to work for something like 15 yrs strait. You can call it showbaoting all you want, it is scoring points, dont you need to score points to win, and if you are giving up a point everytime you cut him, then you need to score more points. It's a style, one not everyone agrees with, just like picking top because you are better in that position, so maybe we should outlaw Garden City's tilts, that way the rest of 6A could have had a shot. Once again, proof that our society continues to get softer and softer. Lets just start to flip a coin that way everything is fair.

I like to think both wrestlers are getting some mat time. One's practicing takedowns and one's practicing countering takedown moves

And what did I not research?[/quote]

Well for starters, the injured kid did place. Since you're just a fan of the sport I'm going to assume you either never wrestled or weren't very good. It's not easy for a wrestler of Isaac caliber to just flip a switch a take it easy on kids. When you're that good you just go.
Lastly, don't try to make a kid feel bad by basically saying "because you did that, this, this, this, and this probably happened and its all your fault." Isaac was wrestling not trying to ruin the kids life. [/quote]



Cokely, Perz and other people critcizing my respose.

Here's some research for you on my credentials. I placed 2nd and 3rd in 6A kansas back in the 80s. I wrestled four years in college and won 97 matches. I also am an assistant wrestling coach currently on my sons team. I also refereed over 10 years in KS, MO, and IN. I also had a son wrestle in Ohio. I have seen a lot of wrestling and been involved in it on all sides.

My original point is that Isaac agreed to a comment from that kids gets injured due to awkwardness from different skill levels and was referring to Entophobics point that inferred this kid got hurt because his skill level was lower awkward. Perz, please resarch Enotphobic's and Isaac's reponse that is history on this post and did not misquote anybody.

Before people miquoting me heres my points:

1. Isaac is a great wrestler and looks like a great kid and and has a great wrestling future.
2. It was the right call, and yes he was over aggressive on the slam. But I made a point to say it wasn't unsportsmanlike but was unecessary roughness.
3. I'm sure the Salina South wrestler is also a great kid and worked his butt off also to get where he's at.
4. My opinion, he did not get hurt due to the awkwardness of his skill level.
5. I think its crap to say in this situation that he got hurt because he was awkward due to his lower skill level. I've seen enough wrestling to say that is not the case in this incident. You don't know wrestling if you think it is IMO (Cokely). My comments are not also prejudically affected because I don't know the kid and my son hasnt wrestled with him causing me to be offended and to respond with a personal attack at the original poster.
6. Also, Isaac D agreeds with the comment that kids get hurt because of awkwardness of lower skill levels, when you're the wrestler that hurt the kid is plain arrogant in my book. Thats why Im calling him out. Note the context of Entophobics was spefically directed at this situation.
7. Even though when I beat my opponents, I would never be cocky enough to go online publicly and descibe them as "being less skilled" or having "less ability"
8. Cokely, You're right he placed 6th. I thought he lost in first round, maybe I should researched that point further, but really does not change my original point.
9. To Pete Eck? My name is Steve Mathis and live out of state. Sorry for not following the forum rules.

Steve Mathis
West Lafayette, In

Here's my take.

* Was there, saw the match. It was an called correctly.
* Issac has done this the entire year. If the takedown record is that important to him, so be it....chasing records comes with risk.
* Taking people down that many times and letting them up is perceived by the majority of people watching as being "bad sportsmanship".
* Doing it for "Mat Time" is a crock.
* TKing is correct....people should be pointing the finger at his coach or coaches. Why put your kid in that position. Pin him and get onto the next match.
* All that said, The way Issac reacted to the call and how he carried himself the rest of the evening and tournament has got to be appauled. Very professional.

I did not see either post referencing that Isaac's opponent was of lesser skill level. It was a general reference that awkward moves can injury either wrestler.

If you are an "adult" hiding behind an annonymous name and calling out teenagers, you need to get a life.

Tough call. The kid was in a defenseless position due to his arm being pinned to his side. Offensive wrestler has an obligation to return the wrestler to the mat with control. It didn't look violent or out of control, but the first thing to hit the mat was the kid's neck and that is a tough call for this style of wrestling. Just an unfortunate set of circumstances. Officiating wrestling has a lot of subjectivity to it so it and it is a tough job, but without officials, we don't have a sport. Time to move on. Dulgarian has a bright future ahead in wrestling and I doubt this temporary setback derails his plans at all.

Mr. Mathis;

For now the THIRD time in your points #4 & #6, you intentionally choose to misquote young Isaac. The post that Isaac agreed with stated:

"Watch a real good kid against a not so talented one....I have seen a lot of injuries to the better kid due to the awkwardness of the lesser skilled guy who may go the wrong way on a move" UNQUOTE!!
It is not a case of "the kid is plain arrogant in my book. Thats why Im calling him out" (WOW MATHIS, IS THERE ANY LIMIT TO YOUR DESIRE TO VERBALLY ATTACK A KID) - BUT YOUR ENTIRE RANT IS BASED UPON YOUR OWN LIE. Please "carefully read & comprehend" BEFORE you attack a kid.

Isaac & Entophobics say (as a general observation) that lots of times THE B-E-T-T-E-R KID GETS INJURED - yet, for the third time now, you choose to continue to manipulate Isaac's words as if: 1) he said the opposite & 2) even if he said the opposite as you keep alleging (he didn't) that you somehow knew he directed anything at this specific unfortunate incident.

Isaac feels very bad that the young man got hurt. Why do you keep attacking this kid? Stop attacking Isaac in general, but especially on the basis of this TOTALLY FALSE pretense that you concocted.

CAREFULLY REREAD AND C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-D THOSE POSTS

Kevin Perz

It is unfortunate that talented athletes should have to walk around with targets on their back. No matter what they do, they are considered arrogant showboats by some observers. I cannot understand the hostility that is aimed towards them, but I have some ideas why that I will keep to myself. There will always be athletes that are more talented than others, but calling them unsportsmanlike like is unfair. Is pinning an opponent unsportsmanlike in 30 seconds compared to in the second period? Is a tech fall showboating?

Houndpower,

Please re-read my post. I said perceived....I didn't say I agree with it or not. Perception...REAL OR NOT REAL you can not avoid.

Pinning quickly is perceived as being quick, getting it over with, making the kill.

When a wrestler "toys" with another wrestler and does not ended it as quickly as possible it it looked down on.

Real or not it's still a perception. And in this case, a really easy way to get rid of the perception is not to do it.

If one does not care about the perception they have, they can continue doing what they are doing.

Not that this directly relates to this subject but it seems to me that there was big discussion last year about taunting. I guess I could see where some people would take this view in light of the number of takedowns in this match. Guess there is a very fine line as to how you could interpret it. Don't fault the wrestler if that is how he is trained. Obviously he is very good at takedowns and can get some good scoring that way. I know when I wrestled 30 years ago the OK teams we wrestled would try to TF you as opposed to pinning, never understood that myself, but that was their style then. They got pretty upset when you pinned them though.

I will say that I don't think that pinning someone in 30 Sec is unsportsmanlike. Wrestling is a timed event with the goal to win the event before time runs out. There is nothing in the rules about it being unsportsmanlike to pin someone quickly. However, there is a rule about taunting.

This is just an armchair observation, you can debate it out how you like. Doesn't change a thing except make you think.

Troy Fowler

Back in the day penalty points could be awarded for repeatedly taking your opponent down. It was considered to be intentionally humiliating your opponent and was considered to be unsportsmanlike. It did not exist for very long.

Anytime I see an offensive wrestler leave his feet with his opponent and "pile drive" the defensive wrestler, (especially if the defensive wrestler does not have full use of both arms), into the mat with the defensive wrestler taking the full force of the move before any part of the offensive wrestler hits the mat, I see "slam."

I am seeing MMA having an unhealthy influence on our sport.

JUST MY OPINION.

Sorry but as as Salina Central Alum, I have to correct you. He is a Salina Central wrestler not a Salina South wrestler. That's it.

I got the wrong Salina school. But the I was right about him being a good kid and hope he recovers soon. Anybody heard how the kid's doing?

Some wrestlers perceive a Tech-fall more embarrassing than being pinned.But that is their perception and not everyone's.My earlier post was that people will have different perceptions that are not necessarily everyone's opinion.

Not referencing this match, I have seen the take down method used when a wrestler perceives that he cannot pin his opponent

Mr. Perz.

Interesting you say I'm misquoting posts,

Here's the full post the Entophobic posted"

"In hindsight though...I think the other kid didn't know what to do when his arm was trapped so it got awkward. Watch a real good kid against a not so talented one....I have seen a lot of injuries to the better kid due to the awkwardness of the lesser skilled guy who may go the wrong way on a move."


Notice how you conveniently took off the first part of the quote, the one about the Salina Cenral kid now knowing what to do do when he was in an awkward situation. And your say I'm misquoting and manipulating the facts. Why don't you post the whole comment. I think a little of that might be going on from you.

I'll concede a little that Isaac's comment, (that was removed from the sight already) might of been miscontrued either way. Is he agreeing with just the fact that the better wrestler gets hurt sometimes or that the Salina Central kid got hurt because he was awkward. Maybe both.

And also heres my point # 4. And why do you think this is attacking Isaac? Again, miscomprehension by Perz.
My opinion, he did not get hurt due to the awkwardness of his skill level.

Isaac might be a kid, but he got online and gave his opinion knowing that it would be subject to scrutiny. I can live with my opinions beign attacked just like you're attacking me now. Is there a forum rule that says we can't comment on someones opinion if that individual is below 18.

I would apologize the comment "on arrogance" if he would clarify his quote about the awkward wrestlers getting hurt. (The one which is removed) .

Im Dayton Will's dad we in no way feel that Issac did that on purpose it was just an accident and part of wrestling.And Dayton is doing good just a bad headache still and has to go through the stages to get cleared by the doctors for his concusion.As far as skill level is concerned Dayton has wrestled many years and a multiple state and national placer he knew it was going to be a very tough match and yes Issac is a different breed of a wrestler his is amazing.My son has wrestled other great wrestlers over the years as in Zak Gentzler Bo Pursel Dakota Leach just to name a few but he loves the sport and has meet some of the greatest people because of wrestling.His first question when he started talking was Am I going to make it back in time to weigh in.Like to say thank you all for the text messages and coming over to talk to us the next day thats what is so great about being a part of the wrestling community

Isaac most likely responded to this thread as he was accused of intentionally trying to punish and make the other wrestler look silly. I am not trying to state his intentions as he is the only one that knows his intentions. Change my user name to Pollyanna, but I see this as an accident and the blame should lie with neither wrestler.

This might be a lesson for a lot of young wrestlers and coaches, the longer a match lasts anything can happen. When you have a chance to be the champion, particularly at the state tournament probably best to finish quickly if possible. Its unfortunate that the kid got hurt and that Dulgarian wont be able to lay claim to being a 4 timer.

"Best"? Where did you find this evaluation? I am not saying I disagree but I don't think this is the place to be making that claim.

If you watch the video, Will's arm is trapped and he has no way to break his impact to the mat. This is much like a two on one when standing then tripping the opponent to the mat on the side where he cannot protect himself. Isaac didn't do it on purpose but he did initiate a move that he had the responsibility of returning the opponent to the mat safely. Will had no way to protect his head and neck as his arm was trapped. Unfortunate but as I told Isaac, three timers have been VERY successful in college and when he stands on the D1 podium this will all be a very distant memory. Hats off to him for his composure and respect. I admired him more for his conduct than for his great wrestling skills. VERY classy. Keep working hard Isaac.

Well said Will. I agree.

And K. Perez - congrats on your championship!

Very well said. It reminded me of another incident at the Sunflower League Tournament a couple of weeks back. The biggest difference, that one (Sunflower League) came from a higher elevation and seemed to have more velocity toward the mat.

"I guess that the drive to be the best at something in our sport is wrong. Casing records is BS and should not be allowed. I guess we need to just stop keeping records all together if it is classless. I guess acording to you Isacc should lose all his matches that way because he is a better wrestler and chooses to show it. I guess Adrien Peterson should have blown out his knee again for tring to rush for the most yards in history. Maybe, Cal Ripkin Jr. should have gotten hurt because he showed up everyday and went to work for something like 15 yrs strait. You can call it showbaoting all you want, it is scoring points, dont you need to score points to win, and if you are giving up a point everytime you cut him, then you need to score more points. It's a style, one not everyone agrees with, just like picking top because you are better in that position, so maybe we should outlaw Garden City's tilts, that way the rest of 6A could have had a shot. Once again, proof that our society continues to get softer and softer. Lets just start to flip a coin that way everything is fair"

Come on 311Fan you can come up with a better argument than that... The bs had nothing to do with records or being soft. If you knew me you would know that I am the total opposite of being soft on anything. Tough love needs to be used 100 times more then it is being used today. That takedown record didnt do much for the end goal of that state championship quest did it? (at least in your brothers situation) That wasnt what was bs anyway, what was when wrestling opponents that are not the caliber to contest the takedowns. Taking a wrestler that is so far beneath you shows nothing what so ever. Now if you need to wrestle the match on your feet to win the match that is a totally different situation. And you now a tilt is not even in the same world as taking down kids over and over. One thing is for sure, never seen anyone get dq'd for a tilt that was to agressive, have you? Is a unfortunate situation to one of our states best wrestlers who hopefully learned a lesson on how things can happen. It was under his control to keep from happening. He hit a move hard, which you have to do, a arm got trapped, and momentum carried it to what happened. It didnt need to happen, match could have been over long before. Should ofs and could ofs, he will be back no problem. You want a cool goal that only one person has that is amazing to me... Bo Maines didnt loose a match but also, never gave up a takedown in high school. Now that is something that cant be broken only tied... If everyone that gets on here and posts feelings, cared about the sport as much as throwing stabs at others (myself included) this sport would be in a much better place then it is.

I believe that ex heights coach was simply stating an opinion like many others, including yourself, do on this forum. His evaluation I would guess is based on years of watching and perhaps working with this official. There is nothing wrong with him making this claim regarding the official...just as there is nothing wrong with people claiming or stating the opinion that it was not a slam, intentional or showboating.

When I wrestled in the early eighties - we didn't have the tech fall rule in MO at that time.

I remember some studs beating me like 46 - 10! I never thought any less of them. They inspired me to do one of two things, find something I was better at OR work hard and get better myself at wrestling.

I chose to try to get better at wrestling. I progressed to 'average'! Grin.

I hold no resentment or bitterness towards all the kids that whipped the tar out of me. And, I turned out OK as an adult. It did not 'wreck me for life'.

I'm sure both Will and Issac will both get along fine in life.

Congrats to both of you for placing at state.

For the record, my son and I watched the video together and his initial response was something like "What, that is what he got DQ'd for? That is not that bad." We ran it in the "slow mo" mode and he did agree that Dayton was pretty much defenseless. This is coming from a young man that has been planted pretty hard a number of times over his twelve year career.

Disclaimer: Will C., I said I watched this with my high school son, not my wife:=}

I don't recall the take-down let up being illegal ever. Danny Knight, a good wrestler from Iowa used it when he was in HS.
It is illegal (taunting) to let a kid off his back repeatedly. That was an interpretation that came out after the taunting rule was adopted. The takedown situation is, or was, a case book example as being allowed, though. But I'm still a young man so I don't remember everything that happened in the day.

Having an arm trapped puts your opponent at risk and as this situation reveals, it can cost you a point, or a match.

MMA is absolutely causing a bad influence in wrestling. As is a general lack of sportsmanship in all sports and in society in general. Too many jerks with not enough societal pressure to be civil and treat each other with respect. Even on this forum you sometimes see people being rude to one another.

Also for the record, I too think that Isaac is a fine young man and an incredibly gifted wrestler (much through dedication and years of hard work, not to mention he is physically gifted). I have always been one to say that you should pin your opponent at the first opportunity. I must admit, I was relieved when Isaac wrestled my son last year and put on a take down clinic getting the 25-10 tech fall. None of those take downs were rough, they were just text book. Garrett and I still chuckle when I say "Remember that time you wrestled Dulgarian and scored ten points on him?" I am sure that we will laugh even harder when Isaac finishes a very successful D1 wrestling career.

I'm a high school wrestler who has competed against sta and Isaac for the past few years. Every time I have spoken with him he is very humble and respectful towards his opponents. He would never have the intent to harm a competing wrestler. And for the arguement of showing up the the other wrestler it's just his way of wrestling he has been doing this for the past two years and nothing has came up from it until now. He is a great kid as I'm sure Dayton Will also. I wish the best of luck to both wrestlers in the future

Yikes.

One could infer from the above that you think Isaac is a 'jerk'. I think he was just wrestling hard. I don't think his intent was to 'hurt' or 'punish' any one.

He is aggressive. That is why I enjoy watching him wrestling. It's never going to be a 'watching paint-dry' kind of match when he is wrestling.

I wish they would call stalls more often and make the kids pick up the action. Too much backing up. Too much hanging on heads when on their feet. Too much just riding parallel when on top. I love our great sport. But the stuff I mention above is not a way to grow our fan base.

Wrestle hard. Wrestle aggressive. Yes, I know. You have to wrestle smart also.

Non-stop action. That is what builds our fan base. Bottom man always working to improve his position and the top man out to the side working for a pin!

When Ben Askren was trying to break the record for most take downs in Wisconsin the officials created their own unsportsmanlike interpretation to prevent Ben from taking down and releasing wrestlers. In fact, I saw this called in Cedar Falls two years ago by an official. After the match I asked him if he was from Wisconsin and he was. We then chatted about it and looked at the rule book. He had been taught by WI officials to call it that way even though the rule book did not state this.

Yikes.

One could infer from the above that you think Isaac is a 'jerk'. I think he was just wrestling hard. I don't think his intent was to 'hurt' or 'punish' any one.

Oh for crying out loud....you don't have to worry about needing to infer what I think...I'll tell you bluntly. Please don't infer that I have any opinion at all about this match or this call or this 16 year old outstanding wrestler. As far as I can tell, he's as good as they come and I would not have a clue as to his personality or any personal traits.

My comment was directed at MMA and how that type of activity, combined with what I believe is the obvious, well-known erosion of civility causes. It has nothing to do with this one match and one minor penalty point and I never tied the two together. It was an unnecessary roughness call and I don't have any opinion on it at all.

And to think, I asked a simple question about this being controversial and got jumped on by two people. Four pages later...

Mr. Will, thank you for posting this update on Dayton. We wish Dayton the best in his recovery.

It was also good to read your positive comments about Isaac and the rest of the Kansas wrestling community. I think it was good for everyone to hear this from you on how you saw this as not intentional but an accident that sometimes happens in wrestling.

Good luck to Dayton and your family.