Class Split

Through all the debate & discussion of the 4A split and classification fairness. I have always said I thought a more fair setup would have 40 schools in 6A, 40 in 5A, and 48 in 4A, 64 in 3A, etc.

So I had my teacher aide type this up, listing each school by enrollment, to see what this would look like. Here is typed what 6A, 5A, and 4A would be.

I also included what the range would be for each class, which was the primary factor in the Big 7 League proposing the 4A split in the first place, I thought.

What do you think? I'm not sure. Is this range more fair? If so, then the 10 & 12 team Regionals could be figured out, in my opinion.

6A
Range: 2258-1170
Wichita-East, 2258
Olathe South, 2090
Wichita-North, 2071
Olathe East, 2046
Olathe North, 2025
Garden City, 2024
Olathe Northwest, 1929
Derby, 1919
Dodge City, 1854
Topeka-Washburn Rural, 1817
Shawnee Mission West, 1755
Shawnee Mission Northwest, 1752
Topeka, 1739
Junction City, 1737
Shawnee Mission East, 1653
Manhattan, 1638
Wichita-South, 1601
OP-Blue Valley Northwest, 1593
Wichita-Southeast, 1570
Lawrence-Free State, 1555
Wichita- Haysville Campus, 1546
OP-Blue Valley North, 1512
Shawnee Mission North, 1500
Hutchinson, 1487
Lawrence, 1465
OP-Blue Valley, 1449
Kansas City- Wyandotte, 1444
Wichita-Northwest, 1415
Gardner-Edgerton, 1406
Maize, 1387
Shawnee Mission South, 1364
OP-Blue Valley West, 1357
Wichita-West, 1336
Leavenworth, 1334
Wichita Heights , 1304
Shawnee-Mill Valley, 1290
Kansas City-JC Harmon, 1265
Liberal, 1237
Topeka-Seaman, 1202
Wichita-Bishop Carroll, 1170

5A
Range: 1136-554
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights, 1136
Emporia, 1103
Kansas City-Turner, 1090
Salina-South, 1064
OP-Blue Valley Southwest , 1059
Kansas CIty-Washington, 990
Salina-Central, 988
Great Bend, 958
Topeka West, 922
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas, 905
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel, 880
Lansing, 879
Goddard-Eisenhower, 862
Valley Center, 838
Kansas City-FL Schlage, 812
Lenexa-St. James Academy, 797
Goddard, 795
Andover, 794
Arkansas City, 775
Pittsburg, 771
Maize South, 764
Topeka-Highland South, 755
Hays, 737
Shawnee Mission- Bishop Miege, 734
Andover Central, 730
Bonner Springs, 713
DeSoto, 689
Winfield, 678
McPherson, 671
Kansas City-Sumner Academy, 668
Spring Hill , 667
Basehor-Linwood, 647
Ottawa, 647
Buhler, 634
Augusta, 606
Paola, 606
Tonganoxie, 600
Independence, 570
Rose Hill, 576
El Dorado, 554

4A
Range: 595-251
Abilene, 595
Kansas City-Piper, 568
Mulvane, 558
Fort Scott, 543
Chanute, 529
Towanda-Circle, 515
Louisburg, 507
Altamont-Labette County, 490
Wellington, 477
Ulysses, 475
Coffeyville-Field Kindley, 465
Topeka-Hayden, 456
Baldwin, 450
Wamego, 442
Atchison, 436
Eudora, 432
Andale, 417
Parsons, 382
Kansas City-Bishop Ward, 360
Clearwater, 358
Osawatomie, 342
Iola, 338
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail, 329
Holton, 329
Pratt, 325
Wichita-Trinity Academy, 325
Chapman, 322
Clay Center Community, 322
Garnett-Anderson County, 319
Colby, 314
Columbus , 314
Girard, 311
NIckerson, 308
Hoyt-Royal Valley, 305
Perry-Lecompton, 304
Meriden-Jefferson West, 303
LaCygne-Prairie View, 297
Baxter Springs, 295
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley, 285
Goodland, 281
Larned, 279
Hugoton, 271
Concordia , 265
Frontenac, 261
Scott Community, 257
Burlington, 254
Russell, 251

your numbers do match up Abilene has 595 and is 4A while El Dorado has 554 and is 5A

Abilene is supposed to be 505, typo

And looks like Piper would be up in 5A, and El Dorado down to 4A.

Looks like a great Idea!

It seems bazaar to me but after Holton got football split, obviously KSHSAA is up for anything,

Sounds more logical then KSHSAA's recommendation.

It will never work. Too Logical.

How many actually oppose this?

My Christmas Wish:

3 X 64 Team Classes AAA, AA, A

4 X 16 team regional per class

Top 4 to the State Championship (Sweet 16)

One site for All 3 State Championships! Take the amount paid for 3 locations and buy the best facility in Kansas to Host!

3 state champions is way better than 4 or 5!

OK. Don't want to sound to harsh, but after the 192S school in the 3 new AAA, AA, A classes, what happens to the other 26 to 30 schools who wrestle. Understand there are 90 plus 321A schools who field wrestling teams. So, currentlY, 32 + 32 + 64 + 90 = o/a 218 schools/wrestling teams. 218 minus 192 (3 X 64) excludes about 26 to 30 schools. I guess we can tell the smallest 30 schools to drop wrestling---maybe some could co-op with someone to make the smallest 64 school A class. lots of both bad and good points about co-opting. HOPE MY MATH IS CORRECT--OR AT LEAST CLOSE!!!

The numbers might not be as bad as you think for 321A. There were 69 teams at the state tournament last year, and 7 of those scored 0 points.

You could start by telling Stockton, Plainville, and Palco to all go to school in Plainville. The number of schools and counties we have in Kansas is beyond ridiculous.

I personally advocate ONE state tournament for individuals and then a dual state tournament for, at most, three classes.

Some 321A teams had no state qualifers. So, it becomes 64 64 69----or 64 64 and all others. This is just another attempt to combine 5A and 6A into one class. Nothing new here--nothing KSHSAA or 5A and 6A administrators will ever support.

Don't understand the concept of a state duals tournament. Never seen one--don't see the value of adding another tournament and its cost--even though some want to convert to only 3 classes.

Got to be some better, other ideas out there. in instead of a rehash of a bunch old ideas. A 40 40 48, or a 48 48 48, or a 40 x 40 x 40 for the top 3 classes is much more doable than a 64 x 64 x 64. The 40 x 40 x 48 biggest three classes keeps the current 128 school scheme but levels the class competition for state qualification. The 3 X 48 system (144 schools) will require moving 16 321A school up to 4A. A 120 school 3 X 40 scheme will force eight (8) 4A teams down to 321A. Take your pick!

I have no interest in seeing a 5A/6A combined class, but I do think a balance in numbers is warranted. Take 4A for example, there are years where six of the top ten ranked wrestlers in a given weight class are assigned to the same regional--only four will make it out. Meanwhile, there are 5A regionals with four entrants in a weight class...show up, make weight, and qualify; meanwhile at least two of the best wrestlers in a given weight are left at home in other classifications? THAT makes no sense at all.

I don't bring this up to start the KSHSAA bashing on regional assignments, but to point out the disparity between classifications. If you ran 48s across the board, it would stop the easy-street qualification cycle. Then, we can tackle regional assignments! =]

Agree on not combining 5A and 6A.

Disagree on 3 X 48 classes. I proposed this in a 2/20/2012 post on this forum. The problem is you would have to move the biggest 16 321A schools up to 4A. That would gut the strength out of 321A--and 321A folks will never buy it.

Currently 128 schools in 654A. That's a good number to keep. The 40 40 48 proposal (128 schools) has merit: keeps the same number, substantially narrows and levels the competition for state tournament qualification, hopefully creates all class regionals that can be wrestled in one (long) day.

May consider a 40 40 40 classification system. Reduces the 128 654A to 120 schools. Sends the smallest eight 4A schools to 321A--which should help 321A. Totally narrows and levels the competition for state tournament qualification. Creates 4 X 10 school brackets in all classes. Probably becomes either 9 or 8 school brackets in all weight classes figuring one or two opens/byes in each weight class in each/all regionals. First round opens/byes remain a state wide problem statewide in all classes.

Either the 40 40 48 or the 3 X 40 system need to be seriously considered!

When was the last time the KSHSAA changed the wrestling format or made significant changes. Seriously, what have they done. Maybe my history is wrong, but wasn't it about 84-85 when they moved and held 3 class tournaments to Wichita at same site (old Kansas Coliseum). Wasnt that the same year they dropped sub-state with 8 state qualifiers and went to the regional format with 16 qualifers. Of course they regressed and moved 4A to Salina out of necesity about 7-8 years ago. Has anything changed since then. Status quo I think is going to be the winner in Kansas. Has anybody acutally submitted proposals to the KSHSAA board for format changes?

Just to add, the dual state could work with little effort and would make money. Its very popular in other states back East. Check IA, OH, IN, etc for their different formats. Lots of posibilities to fit into schedule without being to intrusive.

Got's to keep trying!!!!!

I feel this is best class split option for KS Wrestling.

I plan on trying to put together a poll of all coaches to get feedback on its support, and also from the Frontier League.

I have no idea if this is an idea that will pass or not, or every become a reality. But I feel it is the best option.

I have communicated this to the KSHSAA & also my school administration to take to the Frontier League meeting.

The 40-40-48 proposal does not increase state tournaments, officials, medals, or expenses. It just changes what teams are going where.

The one issue is a 10-team regional in 5A & 6A. In the case that there are 10 wrestlers and there is a full bracket, then the first-round matches (there would be two per weight class) would need to be in either the 1st & 3rd quadrant or 2nd & 4th quadrant.....to avoid a situation where a wrestler would have a 6th match....am I looking at this right?

I have also emailed some KWCA board members with this idea proposal.

It will be a lot of work trying to get coach feedback and administrator support. I don't really know how all to go about this, but I want to start working on this soon as possible.

If it makes it more fair & balanced in the coach's opinions, then it is worth the work.

48 CLASS "A"
988-2258
TOTAL 72,816

48 CLASS "B"
436-958
TOTAL 31,650

128 CLASS "C"
214-20
TOTAL 37,358

The breakout should be ONLY schools with WRESTLING. The CLASS C I have proposed has ALL schools included in the total (so actually 256 schools = 37,358). Three classifications and host it all together. Wrestling fans of Kansas want to see ALL of the wrestlers competing.

If changed it should go to 40 40 40 with 120 of the current 128 schools. But if necessary do a slight variation of 40 40 44, or a 42 42 42. Even with a classification to one of above structures I seriously doubt many weights will field 10 teams. To many opens in 75% of the weight classes. If there are more than 8 entries in a weight class do a pigtail/wrestle-in with the understanding that a pig tail loss is a one loss elimination match. I think the 10 team regional tournaments can all be wrestled in one day, 8 bracket tournaments, even class a 4A regionals with 11 or 12 wrestler in a weight classes. Need to get the fans and wrestlers out and home. May have to start tournaments a few minutes earlier, reduce the lunch period a few minutes, reduce the dinner break a few minutes, reduce the championship and 3 place match set up time (arrange the mats, set up the medal stands, brief the wrestlers on the introductions and medal presentations, etc.).

A cleaner more efficient regional tournament format. Plus it would be a money saver for 4A schools to do a one day rather than the current two day regional tournaments.

This makes too much sense for it to actually work. I'm curious how many 5A and 6A schools would support a change that makes 4A more equitable. Does 321A stay the same? I am not following the total numbers here, 40 in 6A, 40 in 5A, 40-48 in 4A, the rest in 321A? is that the thinking here. If so, I like it much more than 4A division 1 and 4A division 2.

My proposal is:

6A: the top 40 schools
5A: the next 40 schools
4A: the next 48 schools
321A: remains unchanged, stays as it is

Basically, it moves the top 8 5A schools to 6A. Then the top 16 4A schools to 5A.

Of all the proposals I have heard, this is the one I would like to see presented & pushed for.

The current breakdown is:

6A; 32
5A: 32
4A: 64
321A: I'm not sure....??

The WRESTLING Coaches I've talked to are for the most part in favor of some change that rebalances the classifications. The biggest resistance will most likely come from outside of the wrestling world, those 2 sports that are played with balls. I would be very surprised if KSHSAA does anything that would change the #'s in the classes that would impact their playoff systems for FB and Basketball. I've heard that any proposal that changes the #'s of 5A and 6A teams is DOA. Not sure why 5A and 6A are special in this regard, having been in those 2 classes for the past decade we have kids just like everyone else.

My AD has an idea that would really shake things up, I don't know if he is actually proposing it or working on it, but might make Kit's idea a possibility. His thought is that the idea for a set # of teams per class for all sports doesn't make sense. If you look in 5A and 6A, the number and quality of teams in most sports (baseball, swimming, golf, tennis, soccer, wrestling to a lesser extent) varies widely. Some of the larger schools don't even field teams in those sports, but yet they still take up one of the 32 spots. This could be something that if included could help this proposal.

It does have its problems as well. The logistics of who decides the # of schools per sport, a school being in multiple classification in different sports, etc but something that could probably be addressed.

According to the KWCA there were 224 high school wrestling teams in Kansas this year. There are 352 total high schools in Kansas according to the KSHSAA classifications information.

Salina-Central 988
Kansas City-Washington 990
Newton 1020
OP-Blue Valley Southwest 1059
Salina-South 1064
Kansas City-Turner 1090
Emporia 1103
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights 1136
Wichita-Bishop Carroll 1170
Topeka-Seaman 1202
Liberal 1237
Kansas City-JC Harmon 1265
Shawnee-Mill Valley 1290
Wichita-Heights 1304
Leavenworth 1334
Wichita-West 1336
OP-Blue Valley West 1357
Maize 1387
Gardner-Edgerton 1406
Wichita-Northwest 1415
Kansas City-Wyandotte 1444
OP-Blue Valley 1449
Lawrence 1465
Hutchinson 1487
Shawnee Mission North 1500
OP-Blue Valley North 1512
Wichita-Haysville Campus 1546
Lawrence-Free State 1555
Wichita-Southeast 1570
OP-Blue Valley Northwest 1593
Wichita-South 1601
Shawnee Mission South 1634
Manhattan 1638
Shawnee Mission East 1653
Junction City 1737
Topeka 1739
Shawnee Mission Northwest 1752
Shawnee Mission West 1755
Topeka-Washburn Rural 1817
Dodge City 1854
Derby 1919
Olathe Northwest 1929
Garden City 2024
Olathe North 2025
Olathe East 2046
Wichita-North 2071
Olathe South 2090
Wichita-East 2258
Great Bend 958
Topeka West 922
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas 905
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel 880
Lansing 879
Goddard-Eisenhower 862
Valley Center 838
Kansas City-FL Schlagle 812
Lenexa-St. James Academy 797
Goddard 795
Andover 794
Arkansas City 775
Pittsburg 771
Maize South 764
Topeka-Highland Park 755
Hays 737
Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege 734
Andover Central 730
Bonner Springs 713
De Soto 689
Winfield 678
McPherson 671
Kansas City-Sumner Academy 668
Spring Hill 667
Basehor-Linwood 647
Ottawa 647
Buhler 634
Augusta 606
Paola 606
Tonganoxie 600
Rose Hill 576
Independence 570
Kansas City-Piper 568
Mulvane 558
El Dorado 554
Fort Scott 543
Chanute 529
Towanda-Circle 515
Louisburg 507
Abilene 505
Altamont-Labette County 490
Wellington 477
Ulysses 475
Coffeyville-Field Kindley 465
Topeka-Hayden 456
Baldwin 450
Wamego 442
Atchison 436
Eudora 432
Andale 417
Parsons 382
Kansas City-Bishop Ward 360
Clearwater 358
Osawatomie 342
Iola 338
Clay Center Community 332
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail 329
Holton 329
Pratt 325
Wichita-Trinity Academy 325
Chapman 322
Garnett-Anderson County 319
Colby 314
Columbus 314
Girard 311
Nickerson 308
Hoyt-Royal Valley 305
Perry-Lecompton 304
Meriden-Jefferson West 303
LaCygne-Prairie View 297
Baxter Springs 295
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley 285
Goodland 281
Larned 279
Hugoton 271
Concordia 265
Frontenac 261
Scott Community 257
Burlington 254
Russell 251
Haven 249 249
Wichita-Collegiate 249 249
Hesston 247 247
St. George-Rock Creek 247 247
Holcomb 245 245
Hiawatha 244 244
Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian 243
Kingman 241 241
Sabetha 239 239
Cheney 238 238
Halstead 238 238
Easton-Pleasant Ridge 236 236
Riverton 236 236
Beloit 234 234
Cherokee-Southeast 234 234
Galena 234 234
Marysville 234 234
Gypsum-SE of Saline 233 233
Silver Lake 232 232
Anthony/Harper-Chaparral 230 230
Cherryvale 230 230
Conway Springs 224 224
Wichita-The Independent 224 224
Riley County 223 223
Douglass 222 222
Effingham-Atchison Co Community 222
Neodesha 221 221
Caney-Caney Valley 218 218
Norton Community 217 217
Council Grove 215 215
Wellsville 215 215
Fredonia 213 213
Richmond-Central Heights 206 206
Minneapolis 202 202
Seneca-Nemaha Valley 196 196
Kismet-SW Heights 195
Garden Plain 194 194
Pomona-West Franklin 191 191
Wathena-Riverside 191 191
Osage City 190 190
Atchison-Maur Hill-Mount Academy 187
Hoisington 187 187
Lyons 187 187
Humboldt 184 184
Hutchinson-Trinity Catholic 183
Lakin 179 179
Rossville 178 178
Eureka 177 177
Leon-Bluestem 176 176
Erie 175 175
Belle Plaine 174 174
Cimarron 174 174
Oskaloosa 171 171
Horton 170 170
St. Marys 170 170
Ellsworth 166 166
Salina-Sacred Heart 166 166
Arma-Northeast 164 164
Mound City-Jayhawk Linn 163 163
Phillipsburg 161 161
Marion 160 160
Prairie Village-KC Christian 160 160
Sedgwick 158 158
Alma-Wabaunsee 156 156
Brookville-Ell-Saline 154 154
McLouth 154 154
Whitewater-Remington 154 154
Hillsboro 153 153
Pittsburg-St. Marys Colgan 153 153
Elbing-Berean Academy 150 150
Sterling 147 147
Valley Falls 143 143
Eskridge-Mission Valley 142 142
Allen-Northern Heights 141 141
Washington County 140 140
Oakley 138 138
Oswego 138 138
Sublette 138 138
Elkhart 137 137
Belleville-Republic County 136 136
Ellinwood 136 136
Ellis 135 135
Uniontown 135 135
Medicine Lodge 134 134
Moundridge 134 134
Syracuse 134 134
Lyndon 133 133
Meade 133 133
Winchester-Jefferson County North 133
Bennington 132 132
Shawnee-Maranatha Christian Academy 132
Cottonwood Falls-Chase Co. 131 131
Holton-Jackson Heights 126 126
Johnson-Stanton County 124 124
Inman 122 122
Smith Center 121 121
Plainville 120 120
Leoti-Wichita County 118 118
Herington 117 117
Olathe-Heritage Christian Academy 117
Pleasanton 116 116
Onaga 115 115
Solomon 114 114
Burlingame 113 113
Lawrence-Bishop Seasbury Academy 113
Troy 113 113
Howard-West Elk 112 112
Greensburg-Kiowa County 111 111
Hill City 111 111
Oberlin-Decatur 110
Wakeeney-Trego Comm. 110 110
Canton-Galva 109 109
Kinsley 109 109
Little River 109 109
Sedan 109 109
St. John-Hudson 107 107
Wakefield 107 107
Claflin-Central Plains 106 106
Peabody-Burns 106 106
Pratt-Skyline 106 106
Ness City 106 105
Olpe 103 103
Leavenworth-Immaculata 102 102
Oxford 101 101
Atwood-Rawlins County 100 100
Coldwater-South Central 100 100
Montezuma-South Gray 100 100
Lebo 99 99
Melvern-Marais Des Cygnes Valley 99
Spearville 99 99
Blue Rapids-Valley Hts 98
Jetmore-Hodgemen County 98
Udall 98 98
Lincoln 97 97
Highland-Doniphan West 96
Macksville 93 93
Osborne 92 92
Centralia 91 91
Moran-Marmaton Valley 91 91
Mankato-Rock Hills 90 90
Quinter 90 90
Clyde-Clifton Clyde 89 89
Lost Springs-Centre 89 89
Rosalia-Flinthills 88 88
Salina-St. John's Military Academy 87
Stockton 87 87
Waverly 87 87
La Crosse 86 86
Burden-Central 85 85
Downs-Lakeside 84 84
Madison 84 84
St. Francis 84 84
St. Paul 84 84
Goessel 83 83
Kensington-Thunder Ridge 83
Pretty Prairie 83 83
Hanover 79 79
Langdon-Fairfield 78 78
Minneola 78 78
Hartford 77 77
Scandia-Pike Valley 76 76
Satanta 75 75
Victoria 75 75
Deerfield 73 73
Burrton 72 72
Caldwell 72 72
Hoxie 72 72
South Haven 72 72
Frankfort 71 71
Leroy-Southern Coffey County 71
Dighton 70 70
Linn 70 70
Axtell 68 68
Ingalls 68 68
Kiowa-South Barber 68 68
Wetmore 66 66
Stafford 65 65
Chetopa 64 64
Norwich 64 64
Sharon Springs-Wallace County 64
Otis-Bison 63 63
Randolph-Blue Valley 63 63
Rolla 63 63
Ashland 62 62
Logan 62 62
Bucklin 61 61
Baileyville-B&B 58 58
Moscow 58 58
Rexford-Golden Plains 58 58
White City 58 58
Natoma 57 57
Almena-Northern Valley 56 56
Colony-Crest 56 56
Grainfield-Wheatfield/Grinnell 56
Buffalo-Altoona Midway 54 54
Wilson 53 53
Tescott 52 52
Sylvan Grove-Sylvan-Lucas Unified 51
Tribune-Greeley County 50 50
Chase 49 49
Hutchinson-Central Christian 49
Longton-Elk Valley 49 49
Beloit-St. Johns 48 48
Fowler 46 46
McPherson-Elyria Christian 46
Cedar Vale 43 43
Cunningham 43 43
Dexter 43 43
Junction City-St. Xavier 43 43
Ransom-Western Plains 43 43
Bird City-Cheylin 42 42
Hope 42 42
Attica 41 41
Argonia 40 40
Brewster 39 39
Palco 36 36
Glasco 34 34
Weskan 33 33
Miltonvale 31 31
Hamilton 28 28
Winona-Triplains 25
Rozel-Pawnee Heights 24 24
Healy 23 23
Tipton Catholic 20 20

12 team regionals make sense. They can be wrestled in one day without jeopardy of breaking he 5 match rule.

One day Regionals for all would be great! Admins would like that (less academic time missed, less travel expense). Also, less bleacher time for parents/fans is a plus for our sport.

But doesn't it have to be no more than 10 in a bracket to not violate the 5-match rule? Because a KSHSAA event would currently have to follow the NF 16-man bracket format. If so, with 12 kids there can always be a possibility for a need for a 6th match, right?

Don't know if Cokeley is correct? KIt Harris and I have recommended 2 class changes: Harris recommends a 40 40 48 structure, I recommend a 40 40 40. Either is an improvement over the current 32 32 64 structure. My proposal creates a 40 school class that results in 4 X 10 school 8 bracket regionals in each class. A 40 40 40 (120 school) reclass would require moving the smallest eight 4A schools (Goodland 281, Larned 279, Hugoton 271, Concordia 265, Frontenac 261, Scott Community 257, Burlington 254, Russell 251) down to 321A. I think all 10 school 8 bracket regionals can be wrestled in one day--especially since Cokeley says 12 schools regionals can be wrestled.

Mr Harris' proposal also has 40 school classes in 6A and 5A, but a 48 school 4A class. This restructure retains 128 schools of the current 32 32 64. IF, and I say again IF, the four 12 school 4A regionals can be wrestled in one day then either reclass structure may be doable. But, I DO think regionals with 12 schools will present a one day doable problem. 12 schools will probably over fill an 8 bracket tournament and thus will require a lot of pig tail/wrestle-in matches, plus another round for the losers bracket. An option for a 12 school regional may be to use a 16 bracket. The issue with a 16 bracket is the number of first round byes--at least 25% (1/4 of the tournament), more if there are teams with less than full 14 man rosters.

Added on review of Kit's latest post. I don't know enough to address the 6th man rule and bracketing. I will leave that to the big boys. But, one more comment about my 40 40 40 structure. I think it can be wrestled in a 8 bracket format. I think only a few weight classes will have 9 or 10 wrestlers thus at most requiring only 2 pigtail/wrestle-ins in any weight class. I also recommend that pigtail/wrestle-in matches to be one loss and elimination matches (necessary to preclude a pigtail losers bracket and to save time). I also think there will be a few low density weight classes that will have less than 8 wrestlers.

If the concept of all one day regionals in all classes is not acceptable, then why do a class restructure?

This proposal would be for wrestling only, and would not require a change for other sports? Right? It's already done for other sports, so why not get all the coaches on board in all classes. Again, I would like to hear from some 5A and 6A coaches think about this idea.

Depending on where the byes end up someone could wrestle more than 5. This can happen if there are two adjacent sets of matches in the first round on the same side.

Correct, wrestling only at this time, at least for me.

Other team sports: FB, BB, VB, Baseball, and SB need to retain a format of 32 32 32 32 etc. State tournament qualification in these sports in each enrollment class is through eight sub-state tournaments each with 4 schools. The winning school from each sub-state moves on to the state tournament. Thus, the number of schools in all enrollment classes needs to remain an even multiple of 4, i.e., 8, 16, 32, 64. (32/4 = 8 sub-states with 4 teams, 4/2 ==2 , 2/2 = one school from each of the 8 sub-state tournaments advances to the 8 team state tournament.

I KNOW, I should not/did not mean to discuss BB on this wrestling forum. But Coach Lane asked a question that needed answering.

Hopefully the 40 40 ?? reclass with 10 schools in each regional, wrestling in an 8 bracket format would eliminate almost all first round byes. Hopefully 10 schools can fill an 8 man bracket in each weight class. But, I do think you will continue to have some first round byes, but a lot less than now. An over filled weight bracket with 9 or 10 wrestlers will require one or two pigtails/wrestle-ins. Pigtails should be one and done matches: the loser would be eliminated to preclude an odd ball one team losers bracket. All other matches proceed through a normal 8 man bracket front and back side--after all you are looking for the 4 weight class placers to go to the state tournament .

Will,
You can fix the too many schools issue by closing all high schools without wrestling. They obviously don't care about kids!

Seriously, I don't know the fix for state, but it's a great topic of conversation. California has one state tournament. In 2012-2013, they had 27,634 participants from 835 schools. ONE STATE TOURNAMENT. Kansas had 204 schools listed on NFHS data for the same year and had 5156 participants. I'm not completely in favor of one tournament, but if California can figure this out surely we can too.

I think the biggest problem with any proposal is what seems to always occur... we fight with each other until we're so divided that we don't want to compromise on anything. Let's keep the discussion(s) moving forward with open minds. I'd love to see just about any of the new proposals take place.

Well said about the biggest problem with any proposal. Have to quit pole vaulting over mouse turds (fighting), comprise and move forward. In this case maintaining the status quo is ridiculous. I think Kit Harris and I have laid out 2 very doable changes, improvements in Kansas high school wrestling. Either may need some very small tweaks but they can be found and corrections made.

Proposals for one big assed all inclusive California type tournament, a duals state tournament, WHAT ELSE, are all self defeating. Can't and won't be sold in Kansas. Such proposals would cost more money, plus who cares who is the number one stud in the state in a weight class. Reducing the number of chances to compete and win and be a state champion, by lumping everyone in one class, will I think be a severe blow to Kansas HS wrestling. If I am a HS wrestler and I live in the town of "100 MILES from NO PLACE, Kansas and my only options are to always wrestle against kid from the big, big schools/big wrestling clubs, etc., I elect to do rodeo, motorcycle jumping, skate boarding, or heaven forbid basketball or soccer. Why expend the time, money and sweat. If their is no incentive for the kids they will find something else to do.

An 8 man bracket with 10 wrestlers would require a 10 VS 7 and an 8 VS 9 pigtail/wrestle-in matches. An 8 man bracket with 9 wrestler will require only an 8 VS 9 pigtail. To preclude a 1 team odd ball first round losers bracket, the pigtail would have to be an elimination. Maybe harsh but needed for 1 day regionals. After the pigtail round and the slotting of the winners it becomes just a true 8 man bracket.

I don't see any PRO or CON replies from 654A coaches. In fact I don't see any comments at all. Discussion points from 321A folks would be welcome. Is everybody neutral or just don't care--sorry to say but very typical in this forum--sad in either case!

The 40-40-40 plan would move us down to 321A which is already loaded with 21 and 22 team regional. The 40-40-48 plan would leave us at the lower end of 4A. I personally prefer State at Hays, they have the best hospitality rooms for coaches and workers and it does not cost us a cent. The competition in 4A is top notch and I love the opportunity for my wrestlers to face hard matches, I just do not like how the Bicentennial center runs the event. Coolers in a separate room, constant bag checks each time you go to your cooler, and expensive food in the hospitality room.
With all that said, I like Kit's proposal the best.
This is merely my personal opinion.

Thanks for the comment coach. Shows that someone out there is listening. I can't comment on the quality or lack of at the Salina tournament organization and support.

The 40 40 48 is a good option. I do think there is a risk that a 12 team (48/4) tournament can't be wrestled in one day. Would probably have to go to a 16 bracket tournament. That would result in a lot of opening round byes, walkovers are big time wasters, and a whole added losers bracket round.

The intent for my proposal has been primarily aimed at reducing the number of first round byes in the regional tournaments, getting all 654A regionals wrestled in one day. The KC area 5A regional is notorious for short roster, byes, and qualifying wrestlers to state with O (zero) wins (excluding a losers bracket win by bye (resulting from a 3 wrestler bracket).

The simplest way to cut byes is to reduce the number of opening slots in 4A (thus the 8 man VS 16 man bracket (112 slots vs 224 slots). Increase the number of schools/wrestlers in 5A and 6A from 32 to 40. 4A benefits by reducing the bracket from 16 to 8 (fillable in either a 40 or 48 school enrollment class), plus the 4A regionals become one day tournaments like 5A and 6A.

Hope this keeps going and adopted..

If either option is adopted will have to do one or two regional cycles (years) to evaluate and tweak.

I like the 40-40-48-rest plan. I think we have to stick with a double elimination regional though. It may make a long day, but it is just one day. As a coach, I would rather a kid have to forfeit for 3/4th because of the 5 match rule as opposed to being one and done with a true pigtail match. For example at the Burlington regional, there were 12 seedable wrestlers at 160, and we ended up drawing the 4th thru 11th seeds because it was the endless circle of everyone had criteria over someone. It would be a shame to only get one chance by luck of the draw. It would not make that many more matches, and keeps it consistent. Pigtail them back in to the backside or 16 man brackets, either way.

Sounds like there were only 3 seedable wrestlers.

The #3 thru #12 seeds all had very close matches with each other all season long, beating each other. All were very close.

I agree with Regan about need for double elimination.

But I think we would need to stick with a 2-day 16man bracket for Regionals even with 12 teams. I do not think we should ever draw or look at criteria for the 3rd/4th place match at a Regional tournament.

I don't think it can be done in one day with the 5th-Match Rule. There will always be the chance the 6th match would come up.

How about getting rid of the 6th match rule. We have middle school kids consistently wrestling more matches than this and to my knowledge none of them have died or have been injured.

That is a National Federation rule & thus is more difficult, even though it makes complete sense to us directly in the wrestling frontline (coaches & kids). But that doesn't mean it can't be continually pushed for. I believe NF has heard plenty of times how much coaches want the rule to be changed.

There is a proposal this year to allow a 6th match if a wrestler has not wrestled a total of 30 minutes on the day combined mat time. Not sure how far that proposal will get or has progressed.

It would be awesome to go back to the days with 6-5-4 A in one building.

Totally agree, Coach Lane. I definitely miss getting to watch the studs from 4A that we don't get to see throughout the year.

Had a proposal a few years ago before the KSHSAA Exec Board that had some traction and support from Mr. Bowden. Wrote up the proposal with Mr. Bowden's input; the presentation went well, Exec Board acted interested. . . and then pfft. Two reasons I heard: (1) TOO far outside NFHS rules and (2) Coaches were not vocally supportive of it. If people are serious, quit talking about it on the chat board; write up a proposal for an AD to take to the KIAAA meeting; if it comes out of there as recommended to the KSHSAA it has an inside track to the Exec Board. KWCA submit it as group recommendation to the KIAAA through a sympathetic AD. Write it up every year, have leagueS write letters of support, etc. demonstrate there is widespread support. . . and not just on the chatboard.

"A 6th match will be allowed in one day bracketed tournaments when necessary to determine a place for which team points are awarded, if both wrestlers are members of KSHSAA member school teams."

Rationale: (a) would allow for larger one day tournaments thereby, hopefully, reducing expenses. (b) If only KSHSAA wrestlers allowed to do it, fewer NFHS issues. (c) a placing match should be decided on the mat; not by a list of criterion.

Agree! Great! Would like to see it again. But where-what building? Reclassed regionals, however big the regional bracket, will still send the 1234 placers to a 16 bracket state tournament. No Kansas facility is currently available that is big enough to host 3 concurrent state tournaments (maybe that bank owned arena in Wichita that a lot of folks did not like). Maybe Kansas could borrow the Sprint Center in KC, MO.

The 40 40 40 and 40 40 48 are all good proposals that will greatly benefit KS HS wrestling. If all regional can not be wrestled in one day, then there needs to be another proposal.

If the community thinks 12 team regionals need to be wrestled over 2 days, with a fully seeded 16 bracket,tournaments, perhaps a 48 48 48 654A structure is the answer. But, probably saves no money, saves no travel days, in fact will probably add one travel day to each current 6A and 5A school.

3 X 48 structure will require moving 16 schools from 5A to 6A, moving 32 schools from 4A to 5A, and moving 16 schools from 321A to 4A. 654A classes will have 48 school size parity. Moving the biggest 16 321A school to 4A will remove the biggest 4 schools from each 321A regional (reducing the 321A pressure currently with 21 or 22 schools in their regionals). Need to get 321A folks thoughts on moving their biggest 16 schools to 4A: how will that effect the quality of their regionals and state tournament. 2013-14 KSHSAA enrollment info reflects the following schools would be moved up to 4A:
St. George-Rock Creek 247
Hesston 247
Holcomb 245
Hiawatha 244
Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian 243
Sabetha 239
Cheney 238
Halstead 238
Easton-Pleasant Ridge 236
Marysville 234
Beloit 234
Gypsum-SE of Saline 233
Silver Lake 232
Cherryvale 230
Anthony/Harper-Chaparral 230
Wichita-The Independent 224

One way of solving the 6 match problem and getting it done in one day would be to Pig tail the first round and eliminating wrestle backs for pig tail losers. Pig tail losers would only get one match. This effectively would cut the time down on the tournanent also. You could draw it so seeded wrestlers are out of pig tails. Theres no reason to gurantee two matches for wrestlers. If you have a weak record and get put into pig tail, its tough if you lose. But your weak season put you there.

Does a bye count towards your 5 match limit or is it 5 physically wrestled matches?

I just drew this out. Not an expert by any means--just an old soccer coach.

Try to construct a 16 bracket for a 12 team wrestling tournament-i.e., a KS 12 team regional.
---a full 12 team weight class will have 8 total byes (4 open round byes, 4 byes transfer 1st round of the losers bracket)

---A weight class with only 11 wrestlers will total to 11 byes that all transfer to the backside (5 open, 5 1st round losers bracket, 1 to the 2nd round losers bracket.

---A weight class with only 10 wrestler will transfer 14 byes to the backside (6 open round, 6 byes to the 1st round losers bracket, 2 byes to 2nd round of losers bracket).

---I think every added open round bye adds at least byes 3 if not more. Very low density weight classes with less than 8 wrestlers may need to go to an 8 bracket format or you will be 3 days at what was intened to be a two day tournament. What a sore buttocks!!

Assuming an average of 10 wrestlers per weight class (that may be overly optimistic) X 14 weight classes you potentially have a tournament short fall of 140 byes--that's a lot of byes to work through!)

Somebody please check/review/certify/destroy my numbers.

Willy,

On Track Wrestling, the Bye's take care of themselves. Takes about 1 minute to work through. Just on a side note. Im undefeated in my life against the BYE family, and that includes wins in other sports.

Willy take my "Pig Tail" proposal. Say you have 11 wrestlers in each weight class. Thats 3 matches in the pigtail round per weight or 42 matches. Takes about an hour for the whole round. When you're done, you have a full 8 man bracket. Easily done in a day. Tough on the 3 kids that go home early, but they're the ones that most likely wouldnt advance anyway.

Thanks. I think that is what I have done in 4,5, 6 ++ previous posts. Are you talking 8 or 16 bracket structure. I Do not open round byes transfer to the backside, especially in a 16 bracket structure. Just looked through the TRACKWRESTLING Bracket examples. Cant find a good bracket example that deals with an 8 bracket tournament with 9 10, 11 or 12 wrestlers in a weight class. My proposal has always been to pigtail the over 8 wrestlers, with the pigtail losers eliminated. Those one match eliminations will reduce the weight class to an 8 bracket weight class.
Several folks object to the one and done.

Don't understand your the Bye's take care of themselves,or "the round per weight or 42 matches." I ran out of fingers to count on, can't hardly reach my toes anymore.

Hi,
The sixth match rule was discussed at the NWCA conference last Aug. in Florida. The main opponent to changing the rule are other states. There are states that are getting between sixty and eighty matches in a season by NFHS statistics.

Patrick Naughton
Lawrence High