Does Basketball have it right?

I was talking with a High School Coach last night and we think that Basketball may finally have one up on the wrestlers. In the NCAA Basketball tournament there is no 3rd place, no challenge for 2nd, and no double elimination. The only thing that matters is "The Championship".

All of those players are not winners. All of those players don't get a trophy. They don't care if you were on the tough side of the bracket. Win or GO HOME. A True life lesson.

That is not even true for the NCAA basketball tournament. Small schools get lots of attention and are rewarded for getting a 1st round win. The rest celebrate at every turn--Sweet 16, Elite 8, Final 4 and championship.

There is a huge difference between millennials who are trophy children getting awards for showing up and a wrestler placing 6th at State.

It is hard to keep interest in our sport at a high level. It is difficult to convince kids to go out and dedicate what it takes to make it through a season. The mentality that the only thing that matters is the championship is the same mentality that only focuses attention on kids who are currently at a level to compete for a top placing.

We coach our entire room and try and get them to the best performance they can muster, with no excuses. You can keep your true life lessons if all that is about is a championship or go home.

They used to play for third but the TV ratings STUNK it up so they dropped it in the 80's I believe. NCAA hoops is ALL about $$$$$$. Don't kid yourself.

I totally HATE true 2nd. That is another post. It should only be about the champion and if you are giving out something special give it to the top 3. None of them lost twice.

They celebrate the winning because if you lose you go home. And in the end, only one team is the winner.

I have no problem with 3rd place in wrestling. Double elimination and they didn't get eliminated. I'm ok with 4th, he was the last one to get beat out. We need to get rid of 5th and 6th, especially when there are only 16 kids in a bracket, and technically these kids have been beat out. 24 State Placers is just way too many.

Well, they don't have it right because they are a team sport and as such, they don't have the individual accomplishments that wrestling has. The most stirring accomplishments I have seen in this sport happened at times on the back sides of brackets. I watched Roberson win five in the back to take third in the NCAA's. I saw a Nebraska kid do the same thing one year. Those are simply incredible accomplishments. I know that placing in the top eight in the NCAA's are immense accomplishments and on a smaller scale but to those kids the same, the state tourney is very much the memory of some of their athletic lives.

At Basehor we wrestle for seventh and eight and those are often matches between state placers and at times include some state champions. To get on the podium at that meet is a battle well fought. I don't think wrestling has much to learn from basketball. There is challenge in those matches. Like some of the rest of you I don't think much of the true second challenge but I don't dislike it enough to really care. I think placing six at state was one of the best things that the state did in my time in coaching. Many times it stimulated young wrestlers and gave them the motivation to move up on the ladder the next year. We are in the business of building memories for these kids and there is nothing wrong with that reward of accomplishment in my view.

Is this because we have too many state placers to begin with, 24 seems excessive to me.

I'm not sure what the harm is in that. We are losing competitors in wrestling each year. The more we focus on the elite level kids only the more we continue to lose those competitors. Lots of kids that take 6th as a sophomore end up winning it as a senior. A lot of seniors that finally, after years of struggle, crawl on that podium in sixth place will remember that day for the rest of their lives. It's not all about the top of the podium, it's about the kids. I was one of the coaches that championed that cause years ago and it was a great thing for the kids. By the way we (at Basehor) had a four time Oklahoma State Champion in one of those matches a few years ago and last year as well. I doubt that you could convince them that they were simply there because there were too many state placers. We had a three timer that took sixth four years ago and he got beat by a kid that is now a two time DII All American. We (at Basehor) think those matches are very worthwhile.

Ataboy Westfahl, it isn't all about the elite.

I just see it differently. If you lose two you go home, you shouldn't get ANOTHER chance just to make you feel good. Being a state placer is not that big of a deal if 24 others are also. I love it when we hear about 4x State placers and then find out they took 6th, 5th, 3rd, and 1st. That is not a 4x State Placer, that is a 2x placer 1x Champion. He got beat out his Freshman and Sophmore year. Why can't it be ok to have to work for an accomplishment instead of being given everything. Everyone can't be a State Champion, everyone can't be a 4x placer, that is what makes it special. If we start making it easier to be a 4x State Placer, it loses it's luster. Big Deal.

Things change, they don't stay the same. If it did, Wayne and I would still be sitting in the chairs at the state tourney telling jokes to each other while you guys wrestled. God I have seen kids fight so hard to take fifth at state that it darn near brought tears to my eyes. You came from a place and time that gave you some distinct advantages and you guys were great. I am both a former antagonist and admirer of what happened down there in those years but I think it keeps you from appreciating how hard those kids worked that weren't from the Ark Cities of the world and how much it took for them to break on to that podium. Thats what we are all about as coaches (or were in my case) and if it motivates more kids to keep doing what we all love so much, then how can it be a bad thing? It doesn't diminish the kids at the top of the podium, it just makes them take a few more steps up to stand there. They can handle the difference I think.

Kansas has it wrong. For a Red state our HS sports are so socialistic and Democrat. EIGHT state champs in football!!

Eight Football Champions. That is 2 per District if you divide the state into fourths. Ridiculous.

Thats 8 per district if you divided it by one. So what?

So What? Just by asking the question shows you are asking the wrong questions and I would guess you were never a champion. Champions know the difference. Some of those who were not champions, just decide to try and make it easier. Even if that means diminishing the role of "Champion". There is only one champion. Bottom line. Definition of Champion-1)n: a person who has defeated all others in a competition.2)n: One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner.

State Champion would be the one that has defeated all other competitors in the state. By definition you can not have 8 State Champions. Also by definition, you can not have a 4th, 5th, or 6th place in a double elimination tournament.

Here are a couple of thoughts while I have been watching this dialogue...

1. Chad, be careful with your wording, for the most part I agree with your point but based on this statement..." State Champion would be the one that has defeated all other competitors in the state." There has never been a state champion in any sport. I do not know of any sport where the state champion has defeated all of the other competitors in the state. This is impossible and infeasible.

2. Basketball does have it right....why??? It depends on your overall objective for wrestling. If your goal is to grow the sport, try to get it to where it is marketable enough so college programs can sustain themselves then we need to change dramatically. We need to focus on the dual concept rather than individual tournaments with a focus on individual accomplishments.
Here is my reasoning for this....

1. Dual scoring is much easier to follow, thus making it easier for the common, inexperienced person to become a fan. By the way....this is the target audience...not us ex-wrestlers that are going to be fans no matter what. Heck, look at all the crap we have endured with the changing of the rules in Olympic style wrestling over the years.

2. Duals are quicker and sell better for TV. I can tune in and watch my favorite team without having to sit there and track every individual. Try to determine how the team scoring works in an individual tournament, etc.

3. Heck, most of us do not know the intricacies of a zone defense in basketball, a triangle offense, etc. But I will guarantee most of us were in some kind of pool for March Madness...why? Because you want to get behind your team, support your school, pick a dark horse and support it, it is fun, etc. Notice the the theme....team aspect.

Bottomline: If we want to market this sport so we can generate enough TV and marketing revenue for college wrestling programs to sustain themselves then we need to focus on the team aspect of it.

If we aren't worried about that then we can continue to focus on individual accomplishments and we can continue to watch the D1 programs dwindle and get cut.

PS- Get ready for a new round of non-profit sports programs getting axed if the NCAA reverses course and starts spreading some of that wealth to the football and mens basketball players.

Shawn Budke

I agree /w coach Thompson. We have enough trouble tring to find 14 kids to wrestle, not to mention fill 14 weights.
College is college. High school is high school. NCAA March madness is the biggest TV event and lasts awhile. NCAA wrestling is over in a couple of days. Cannot compare the two.

If you want your kid touted as the best...Go to those national tournaments where not all of the best kids are anyway. Just the kids whos parents can afford to get them there. Dont ask your State Athletic Association to provide it for you.

Sounds like we have too many weights then.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. It would be alot cheaper for the state to hold one or two state tournaments(Big/Small) then it would to hold FOUR or in Footballs case EIGHT.

What is wrong with wanting to be the best? I think it is ridiculous that you are asking the State Athletic Association to Provide watered down Championships so you can feel good.

Hey let's divide into two classes. Those who want to conquer the world wrestle in college and only wrestle every day of their life bla bla bla. And those that enjoy the sport, enjoy the connections they make with their wrestlers and families. Enjoy seeing kids grow into something meaningful and productive and don't really give a hoot if three other kids are called state champions. I have seen some stud duck wrestlers fall flat on their faces later in life, and seen some kids that never placed or heaven forbid placed 5th or 6th turn into amazing men.

Chad, you arguing about what should count as placement at the high school state tournament is like Koch arguing if your income is enough to pay your bills. I think you have to have walked in these young warriors shoes before passing judgement. Just my opinion.

Your on the right track about dividing into two classes, but not how we divide them into those classes.

I agree, just because you are a stud wrestler does not mean you will do great in life. And, just because you are not a stud wrestler does not mean that you are a loser in the game of life. The other side of the coin is true also.

This every body is a winner mentality is hurting the country. Some things should have to be earned. Adding weights, placements, and now classes is just another way to make everybody a winner.

I've been in the shoes that missed placing at State by one match. Just made me work harder the next year, it sure as hell didn't make me quit.

Damn, I hate it when I mis speak. I thought you were 4x'er. That being said reducing awards in a struggling sport is not the way to increase participation. I am all for a grand state to determine who is #1 as an individual as well as a team, but don't see the harm in placing 6 at State. There are a lot more forces trying to destroy this country then kshsaa. They are just focusing on making sure Kansas is not competitive as a national powerhouse in any sport other then swimming.

If you go to a dual team concept you could potentially go to 2 state championships. 1 for large schools and 1 for smaller schools. Using current system....combine 6A, 5A, and some of 4A for 1 and combine the rest for the second.

Have a series of qualifying tournaments and take the top 16 teams from each division to 1 site. That site would host a 2 day dual state tournament. Have it telvised or on the computer like they do the boys state basketball tournament. Top 4 teams get team awards.

If you want to have an individual tournament then the following week you have an individual state tournament.

Just some thoughts. Trying to answer your orinignal question. Problem is that you are comparing apples and oranges. 1 is a pure team sport. Wrestling is a hybrid/combination of individual and team. The team aspect is what sells to the general population.

This is an idea I can get behind full heartedly. I wouldn't even feel bad about 6 placers if there were only two tournaments.

Placing 6 when there are only 32 schools is too much. Sending 16 out of 32 to state is crazy.

Wrestling is popular to the competitors because of the individual aspect not the team events. Dual team state is always after the individual format in nearly every state that have both. Even in the dual team format the motivation is self oriented. I have never seen ANY data presented that supports your popularity claim from viewers. The ONLY live, prime time, televised Folkstyle wrestling event is the NCAA INDIVIDUAL Championship tournament. It has to be paying off or they wouldn't have expanded coverage.

This is in response to no one in particular, it is just my personal thoughts on this topic. My overall thought is that it would penalize wrestlers that don't wrestle year 'round because they choose to do other sports like baseball and soccer that take up too much time. Wrestling all year is not feasible for many families due to time constraints, not to mention financial obligations.

I don't think anyone would argue that if you take two very young wrestlers with the same caliber athletic ability, the same mentality that the sport of wrestling takes to be really good, the same intelligence to put what they learn in practice and apply it during competition and the same desire to excel in the sport that the wrestler who goes at it year 'round would end up being the better wrestler by the time they reached high school. You shouldn't dismiss wrestlers' accomplishments of finishing in the top six at State because they didn't choose to wrestle year 'round.

I should probably define what I mean by year 'round: October/November to July instead of November to February/March. By no way am I saying I have any issues with wrestlers who work so hard for so many months and chase competition that will sharpen their skills to become the best of the best. I am just saying that not all wrestlers have the interest or means to do so and that shouldn't take away from what they achieve when they reach high school.

Will,

Of course you cannot find the data to support the dual argument because for the most part it hasn't been tried in the mass media market that we have now.

To support my argument I offer the following....

1. You and I fundamentally disagree on the idea that wrestling is an individual sport and not a team sport. I think that the individual aspect of wrestling makes it one of the most intersting team sports around.

2. Look at the growth in our state in the elementary and middle school dual teams. Remember when you started these with Ryne....you were calling kids and scrapping to get enough for 1 team. Where are we now....5 teams for both elementary and middle school..that is huge growth. So much growth in fact that we have had to create 2 separate state tournaments in order to determine who qualifies and for which team. The Middle School state is exactly what the proponents want for a High School Grand state.

3. I am not looking at this problem from an individual wrestlers perspective. I am looking at it from an average fan perspective. What causes the average student to walk in to a gym and watch a wrestling match. What gets there interested, gets them excited, what creates hype around the school. Basketball gets it because of the team concept. I don't have to understand the intricacies of the offense, defense, etc. I just have to understand 2 pt shots, 3 pt shots, and maybe the idea of fouls. Wrestling can do the same thing using a dual format. It allows folks to support their team even if they aren't really familiar with wrestling.

4. Adrenalin rush. Close duals bring about an excitement that is like no other. All I have to offer for evidence is personal experience of over 40 years and the feedback I have received from people over the years. Heck, I remember talking to Matt Treaster after the first year we did the Schoolboy duals and Middle School duals. He and I both realized how much more fun they were. Ask the kids, the love them.

5. Look at the threads on this forum. What has become one of the most popular events we do after high school that causes high school kids to not wrestle in the kids state program.....the dual team that Chief forms and takes to Colorado.

Bottomline: Wrestling at the D1 college level is not growing. Wrestling at the international level almost got voted out of the Olympics. What we are currently doing is keeping wrestling on life support at best. You are one that is always preaching change and thinking outside of the box....well here are some ideas that I think would be positive and help grow the sport. It requires a change in thinking that wrestling is predominately an individual sport.

So, you ask for evidence....until we try it for a while we will not get a good enough sample size to provide you the emperical evidence you so desire.

In the mean time all I have to offer for evidence is huge success of the products you have been instrumental in creating....elementary school duals, middle school duals, schoolboy duals, etc.

Shawn Budke

All of those teams are comprised of wrestlers who earned their spots individually. The trips, gear , bonding, experience and exposure drive their popularity as much or more than the team aspect. I've never said I don't like duals or a dual team state opportunity. I'm just saying that the individual aspect of this sport is what is most attractive and popular.

Maybe the individual aspect is most appealing to some wrestlers but I will still argue that wrestling on a team in a dual is just as important. I also contend that duals are the way to market wrestling to the casual fan.....the person who is not familiar with wrestling.
Those of you out there who have kids that have wrestled on any of the dual teams or high school duals....ask them why they like the dual teams so much and which they prefer please. Post your answers here. Thanks

Shawn

My son did every thing he could to go to MS deals.He dropped wight Wrestled up in age/wight train harder. There was three things that pushed him. In this order.
1st was the gear. He got spiderman singlet .That was the one he wanted.I heard many many kids talk about the singlets.

2nd was the experience. In the drive up/Motel/eating with the team.

3rd was fighting with the kids he was fighting aginst just weeks ago.On my sons team he had 3 kids that he wrestled all year on his team.

I do think it will be drifrant if the team was the same all the time.I think part of the fun to the kids is it being all difrant.

I also think if we could get duals going in the MS ES age every week. That would help Team KS over all.

Charles

Beeson

Wasn't it a few of years ago Ark City won a team state championship with no state champions. Maybe they were undeserving as a team or my memory could be faulty.

Under the rules they were deserving. That still doesn't make it right to place 5th and 6th.