Plans to reverse the declining numbers????

Any plans for change to stop the declining numbers?

.
The experimental change is not working to sustain maintain,
Or grow the sport in the state.


During the period Nationally HS boys down 28,000 and girls up 8,000 in participation numbers. Overall numbers - 20,000 decline in HS participation - both nationally and in the state of Kansas an approximate 10 percent drop over the 8 year period - in HS participation. That is cause for some discussion on changes to the way we are "growing" the sport.


You Do The Math: High School Participation Numbers

2009/10 Data - NFHS
http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2009-10%20Participation%20Survey.pdf
2016/2017 Data - NFHS
http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2016-17_Participation_Survey_Results.pdf

National Numbers – Wrestling
2016/17 -
Totals - 259,391
Boys – 244,804
Girls – 14,587

2009/10
Totals – 279,024
Boys – 272,890
Girls – 6,134

Kansas Numbers – Wrestling
2016/17
Totals – 4,861
Boys – 4,749
Girls – 112

2009/10
Totals – 5,373
Boys – 5,319
Girls - 54

We are fighting a losing battle. We live in a society and a time where instant gratification rules. Kids have countless ways to obtain entertainment. And the kids that have an aptitude for athletics are watching espn and fox sports and any number of outlets for sports along with the onslaught of social media sites. The constant of all those, is the fact that kids see their “hero’s” living the life they dream of. And in sports like football, basketball and baseball giving away full ride scholarships and/or instant access to professional money vs a sport like ours that don’t offer any of that. Add in the facts that our sport doesn’t only not offer instant gratification but promotes the exact opposite. We don’t have the media coverage to promote our sport. There are lots of examples of why we don’t keep up, but it boils down to the instant gratification of the current and upcoming generations. Of which there is nothing we can do to change it. Better scholarships and more collegiate opportunities would help, and better mainstream media presence would help, but those take time!

Spot on!

I will ask the same question.

Any plans for change to stop the declining numbers?


The experimental change is not working to sustain, maintain,
and/or grow the sport in the state.

I will agree there are a number of factors contributing to the decline - lets list the factors!!!! Start a list

Then the leadership needs to come up with solutions how we can address them.


1) Quit trying to ram this 6 and under State Championship Belt
down the memberships throat. Bring back 16 & Under to develop
freshman and JV guys and help prepare them for their sophomore, junior and senior seasons

2) Focus on age appropriate development.
50-70 matches per year for a 5 year old is insane

8, 10, 12, 14, 16 age groups - folkstyle focus

12, 14, 16, 18 - International Styles, Schoolboy, Cadet, and Juniors



3) A focused effort to get middle school interested and started in the sport. (Grades 6th-8th)

4) Continue to support the college programs in the state.
This contains the future coaches, administrators and leaders for the sport.

5) For Kansas national teams - the main level development and support should be at the school boy/girl, cadet and juniors.

6) more camps put on at our colleges around the state and clubs and high schools in those regions need to work together.

The only thoughts/proposals making it to the meetings - have been driven by the folks that are at the meetings.

Translating what Jbeidelschies says: You don't graduate high school or college, and walk in the door at XYZ Corporation and become the CEO. It takes hard work, commitment, and loyalty to the company (wrestling) to become top dog.

We as coaches try to let parents know what they are in for, and that it is a marathon, not a sprint. And one of the hard parts is convincing parents that they will have to watch their kids get pummeled by kids that were taught technique that will win them matches at 6u and 8u. Keeping kids out, that have just about had their heads dislodged from their bodies by a headlocking 6u manster, is a tough sell. But oh my is it satisfying the first time one those kids that got muscled around, turns the tables on the headlocker........ Again, this is a lesson that kids must learn. There are always going to be people that are in a hurry to win, no matter how young their kids are.

Smokey, your cause is noble, no doubt. I think where our focus needs to be is making sure that our Novice coaches are teaching technique that wins matches at the 10u, 12u, 14u, HS, and College levels. Focus on the many feel good stories of kids that didn't win many matches as grade schoolers or middle schoolers(Bradley Little for example) that went on to be HS state champions and wrestle in college.

You also have to remember that there are also a LOT of kids wrestling at the highest levels that were also really good at the 6u, 8u, 10u levels, and still are today. The Bo Nickals, Joey McKennas, Bo Jordans, David Taylors, etc. etc. We can't make it "boring" for kids like that at a young age.

While I agree we should not put much emphasis on 6u (and often joke about 6u tourneys being for the "Intergalactic Championship", and tease referees to bring their A games, because this 6u tourney is for all the marbles), we do have to realize that the money that the 6u kids spend helps fund a lot of our older kids' development thru duals and such. So we can't just use them up and throw them to the curb.

Doug747 - The Elite Athletes represent such a tiny tiny percent of the population of any activity. But if we continue to lose participants, the Elite Athlete will not have anyone to practice with or come and watch them wrestle. I just can not believe you smart individuals can not grasp the concept that the trophy hunt needs to stop for the real young ones in our sport. "It is not hurting my son" I hear that crap from some - pretty sad - your son is not the only one being affected by the policies and plan in place. Wrestling is graduating college athletes with declining opportunities for them to give back to the sport - keep doing what your doing - history is being made - records are being set - declining numbers continue. To even have this debate with other adults leading these young kids - I am at a loss for words _____________ -

Sean McCarthy

Sean

I get your point, and the data will show you are correct. I don’t think you will find a “plan” to fix the issue of declining numbers. Unless you have a “plan” to fix our society, and direction it is going....btw that would be great if you did. Sports that require a lot of work, commitment, and are physically demanding are all declining. I am a football coach as well, and see the same thing in football. The only advantage football has over wrestling is all the media coverage. There were some great points made about the instant gratification factor as well. So I don’t have a plan, but I don’t think anyone could. Unless you make wrestling really easy...not a lot of work....not physically tough...give all participants a trophy even high school.....and get everyone to watch it on tv.

Craig Amrein

This is a good listen. Ben Askren has been putting out information that makes you think for several years. Many years ago he wrote an article titled "Don't Blame the Ref" which I thought was excellent too. https://www.facebook.com/askrenbros/videos/1903664446319728/

I'm relatively new to the coaching game. I'm 32 and just finished my 7th year as a head coach. I certainly don't know everything, but I've picked up a few things over the years that have helped increase our numbers and participation at OSHS.

1) Create the right Culture:
Put first things first. The most important part of my job as a coach is to help shape young men & women of character. You have to make time to emphasize building character traits. It's not always easy to do, but it doesn't take much. We have a theme for each week throughout the season. Each practice we try to do something that puts our focus on that theme and WHY it's so important. Maybe one day we discuss a quote tied to the theme. Some days we put the kids in groups after conditioning and give them talking points to discuss while they stretch. We write letters of gratitude to staff members in the building. We do a program community service project each year to give back without receiving anything in return. None of these ideas are new - and I've stolen most of them from great coaches I've known or studied. The point is, the primary focus of our program is becoming stronger, better human beings. Better people become better wrestlers - and winning takes care of itself. This shift in focus has changed our culture. Preaching controllables and performance over winning and losing has allowed our kids to change how they view competition. Give full effort, have fun, and let the results handle themselves.

2) Build Relationships & Have Fun:
Growing up I had every type of coach out there. Some coaches made me fall in love with their sport, and some made it easy to walk away. When I first started coaching I thought it was my job to be the hard ass. I kept the kids at arms length. I shared little about myself as a person. Practice was a 2.5 hour GRIND, every single day. Looking back, I was missing out on the best aspect of the job. The kids were miserable, and so was I. Had I maintained that approach I'd have burned out of the profession in a few years. Something had to change. I let my guard down. I stopped compartmentalizing my work and personal life. I started telling the kids I love them and showing them that I care. We work our tails off in the practice room, but we make time to laugh and have fun. Practice is no longer something the kids dread, but something they look forward to. There's certainly times when they need the hard ass - but the message is better received because they rarely see that side of me. Wrestling, and coaching wrestling, are tough enough on their own. If every minute of practice is miserable, and you don't connect with the people around you, it should't be a surprise when people walk away. Again, this doesn't take much. We started each practice the last month of the season with 10-15 minutes of handball. They're sweating harder after that than their traditional warmup. We give the kids time to get to know their teammates on a deeper level. One of my favorite exercises is 3H: Hero, Highlight, Hardship. The kids are grouped with teammates they don't know very well, if at all. They take turns discussing their personal hero, the highlight of their life so far, and the hardest thing they've been through. You can't force kids to become best friends, but this exercise allows them to relate to each other on a deeper level. Every year we've done this exercise our team has grown more connected to their teammates and the program. They begin to respect and appreciate each other. They actually bond over something other than girls, video games, or wrestling. The more they love each other the more they fight for each other. This is the foundation of our program. We break out of every practice on FAMILY!

3) Stop Cutting Weight:
Cutting weight sucks. Most kids lack the discipline required to cut weight without sacrificing their health, academics, and performance in competition. Their diet becomes a wreck - starve for a few days, binge for a few, and start all over again. Their practice focus shifts towards weight loss as opposed to getting better. Their grades tend to suffer due to the roller coaster their life has become. Most kids cut because they see a competitive advantage at their desired weight. Yet when they finally make weight they're incapable of performing their best. Stretch this out for an entire season and you've wasted a year killing yourself, under-performing, and have squandered your opportunity to grow as a wrestler. I'll say it again, cutting weight sucks. It runs kids out of the sport and stunts the growth of the ones who stay. Like most programs, we stress the importance of strength training and a clean diet. Get big, get strong, eat clean, and focus every minute of practice on becoming a better WRESTLER. Any kid who pulls weight on our team does so because they choose to (THEY want to). There’s times when I understand their reasons, be it to make the lineup, have a shot at a state title or to help strengthen the team. Whatever the reason, they were the decision maker. We keep a close eye on these kids and pull the plug if they can’t do it right or it begins to impact them negatively. The number of kids on our team that pull weight has dropped significantly over the years. The kids are happier, the parents are happier, and I don't lose sleep worrying a kid may miss weight or go AWOL and quit. In my opinion, cutting weight should wait until college. Very few high school wrestlers, and ZERO youth wrestlers, should cut weight. It's an old school practice that does nothing but lower participation and create a negative perception of wrestling to those outside the sport.

I don't know how to solve all of wrestling's problems. I'm still learning and growing as a wrestling coach all the time. There are coaches all over the state that could offer much more than I have here. I just know that this topic hits home for me. Early in my career I believe I was contributing to the problem as I saw numbers drop in our program. I changed my mindset, adjusted my approach, and have seen things turn around as a result. The things listed above played a significant role in bringing our program back to life. Maybe some of these things could help others - maybe not - I just know they've made a big difference around here.

You hit the nail on the head about fixing society, and wrestling will get fixed as well.......

That’s the goal. Bring more kids into the sport, help them grow and develop strong character, and send them out into the world prepared to make a positive impact. That’s the only way I know how to influence change - one wrestler at a time!

Just a suggestion, when your in your next wrestling meeting with the next generation of leaders you might want to point out that
KS high school numbers have been declining in KS and nationally - maybe there needs to be a discussion on why this is happening. Then what can be done to try and reverse the problem. Or just go with the status quo of the past few years of CHANGE - just ignore the old timers that have no clue what they are talking about - absolute no clue in growing the sport and youth development.

The Survey Monkey needs to ask different questions
smokeycabin Online content
Member


The Survey Monkey needs to ask the membership
What is causing numbers to drop on the upper end
of wrestling 13 years old and up and fix the problems.
Do not ask leading questions like how can we make space for 4 year olds
at State or on the national diaper national bus tour.
Insane - the team for change will be remembered big time.
Pretty sure the budget has been taking revenue hits,
the reserve is getting gobbled up, and expenditures have increase
For the travelers - I hear things like it (USA Wrestling) is a youth organization
garbage - don’t use buzz words with me. The last I looked we have College
guys representing world and international teams, Even with the growth of women’s
Wrestling - overall numbers are down. WHY?



Sean McCarthy

Sean,

I wasn’t trying to discredit what you were saying. I apologize if something I said offended you. I agree with you. I was simply trying to highlight a few of the ways I’m trying to combat the issue. I’m not a youth coach, and I think that’s the focus of the fight. I’m just doing what I can where I am.

Jbeidelschies and Doug747


Does Kansas Wrestling need to FOLLOW society where we give parents and kids instant gratification - or should we LEAD
and develop them differently then what is currently the process?? What the current Wrestling Society is doing is not exactly growing the sport.

Sean McCarthy



Jbeidelschies Offline
Junior Member

Loc: Louisburg, Ks
"We are fighting a losing battle. We live in a society and a time where instant gratification rules."

Trust me, the first thing I tell our novice parents is that they shouldn't expect to win right away. Our borrowed system is designed for HS and College success, not 6u, 8u, success.

Not that our "system" is perfect, but even if it was, I can't go to every other club in the state and try to convince them to do what we do. You obviously have more free time than I do, and you should be applauded for what you want to do, but society today is broken, and it is going to be tough to reverse. I hope you don't take offense to this, but I don't know that I have seen a specific plan from you to change us for the better? If I missed it, please repost it. My memory is only about as long as my ...... hair.

On a positive note, here is evidence that there are some people left in this world with some common sense......

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/06/georgia-sheriffs-concealed-carry-sign-goes-viral.html

And another.......

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/04/06/nc...d-2nd-amendment

Lots of good points in this discussion thread. Just one other good idea is getting our youth competitions more excited and family/fan friendly with creating a season dual schedule between clubs or a creating youth leagues and having a dual schedule between all of the clubs in your league. Got to sell wrestling to the families in the communities and once its sold to them, they will get their kids involved in the sport and become fans of the sport. Why do more people go to watch basketball and football games, because they have scheduled times that people show up on Friday nights and watch the games. If club directors could get together and establish club dual schedules then use the schools to funnel out the season club dual schedules to all of the families to where it becomes the norm to want to make it out to watch little Jonny's dual just like they do little Jonny's soccer, football and basketball games then we would be on the right track. Fact is wrestling is a tough sport for the kids but even tougher for the parents who have to spend their entire Saturdays/Sundays sitting all day to watch a total of 9 - 12 minutes of wrestling at best over an 8-10 hour day in the bleachers of a gym. Yes, split sessions help that but not for families who have siblings/multiple kid wrestling in both sessions and volunteer youth coaches. You still have tournaments on the schedule of course, but atleast then our sport can reach out into the community to more then just the die hards. Then over time this will funnel into the HS's where more people in the community will want to come to watch HS duals as well because they are familiar with the excitement from the youth program duals.

One thing that I noticed about the Kansas Youth Wrestling System is the lack of a true "rec wrestling system". I know that we have novice tournaments but that still requires some type of commitment from the parents. Weigh-ins the day before, a USA card, etc. I know some other states still have tournaments where you don't need a card, you weigh in that morning, and they put you in a group of 4 and you wrestle. These kids would go to practices usually put on by the high school and often the high school kids would coach the kids at the practices. They might wrestle for 6-8 weeks or whatever. The club kids were the kids that were committed and all in. Without the rec system there are a lot of kids that don't try wrestling or at least stop going after 6U or 8U. If a kid is on the mat learning, even if not at an intense level since they are a youngster, they still could be pretty tough in high school. They have a understanding of their hips, basic fundamentals, etc. It seems like we are a very top heavy state with a lack of depth. I am sure there are many factors to this but my theory is that the absence of a rec system could be one of those main factors.

From a parent’s perspective the youth clubs on the MO side (K-8, no HS division in MOUSAW) do a HORRIBLE job letting the community know they even exist. No fliers in the schools, nothing. Almost felt like we were trying to join the mafia trying to get my son started, found our local club online by accident.

Even talking to family friends (some of whom now wrestle) I was surprised by the number of people who didnt realize youth wrestling existed AT ALL. More kids may try it out if they’re aware it’s out there.
Length of the folk style doesn’t help recruitment either. MOUSA state tournament was just last weekend. 2-3wks later than last year, regular season ran 5 full months. Not an issue for everybody, my son practices year round and I know of several clubs who offer year round practices and/or switch to freestyle after state but kids (and their families) trying something new may not want a nearly half year commitment. I’m sure with a 5 month season we lose kids in MO because of the overlap with the spring sports season too.

I've officiated HS Varsity Duals at school such as Rose Hill, Buhler, Andover and Andover Central where they'll have their Thursday night HS Varsity duals divided up into sections and intersperse youth matches right in the middle of things! Talk about an awesome environment for those kids and families! I know it gives me goosebumps when those little guys are hammering it out in a packed gym and it's louder than all get out!

ABOUT

The United States Olympic Committee, in partnership with the National Governing Bodies, created The American Development Model in 2014 to help Americans realize their full athletic potential and utilize sport as a path toward an active and healthy lifestyle.

The model utilizes long-term athlete development concepts to promote sustained physical activity, participation in sport, and Olympic and Paralympic success. These concepts have been tailored to create a framework for developing American youth through sport.

The American Development Model is comprised of four key elements:

Statement
Visual Model
NGB Programming
Resources
The ultimate goal is to create positive experiences for American athletes at every level. By using the American Development Model, clubs, coaches and parents can help maximize potential for future elite athletes, and improve the health and well-being for future generations in the United States.

ADM STATEMENT

The United States Olympic Committee and its National Governing Bodies embrace the athlete development principles that allow American youth to utilize sport as a path toward an active and healthy lifestyle, and create opportunities for athletes to maximize their full potential. These five key principles include:

Universal access to create opportunity for all athletes
Developmentally appropriate activities that emphasize motor and foundational skills
Multi-sport participation
Fun, engaging and progressively challenging atmosphere
Quality coaching at all age levels
By creating early positive experiences for all athletes, the American Development Model will keep more children engaged in sport longer with four outcomes:

Grow both the general athlete population and the pool of elite athletes from which future U.S. Olympians and Paralympians are selected
Develop fundamental skills that transfer between sports
Provide an appropriate avenue to fulfill an individual's athletic potential
Create a generation that loves sport and physical activity, and transfers that passion to the next generation

FAQ

Q. What is the purpose of the American Development Model?
A. The purpose of the American Development Model is to illustrate the stages of development that athletes experience in youth sport. The five stages support the key factors that are outlined in the American Development Statement.

Q. Who is the target audience of the American Development Model?
A. The American Development Model is designed to target adults who typically determine sport opportunities for young athletes, including coaches, administrators and parents. The physical, emotional and mental landscape of each stage should enhance the overall development and positive experience for each athlete.

Q. How should the American Development Model be utilized?
A. The American Development Model is a visual concept designed to help guide consumers and National Governing Bodies toward building and delivering programs that are focused on the individual athlete. The visual model illustrates age-appropriate expectations and concepts for each stage of development.



KEY PRINCIPLES

The ADM suggests that quality sport experiences should incorporate five key principles, which in turn, will help keep more Americans engaged in sport with four clear outcomes.
KEY OUTCOMES

By creating early positive experiences for all athletes, the American Development Model will help keep more children engaged in sport longer with four clear outcomes.

STAGES

The ADM is comprised of five stages designed to create a healthy sport experience and support an athlete’s advancement based on their physical, mental and emotional level, and potential for growth.
SOURCES

The ADM is influenced by the work of Istvan Balyi and widely supported by research conducted around the world.
IMPLEMENT

Use the following recommendations as a way to further your ADM advocacy in the U.S.
NGB ENGAGEMENT


PARENT RESOURCES

- Getting kids off the couch & into the game
- What to aim for in youth programs
- First steps in building an athlete for life

The ADM is a model that needs to be implemented
and not just make posters that never get delivered to the clubs.
So there are a few people listening - that is a good thing. Everybody is struggling with the dollars and short sighted gains 4,5, & 6 year olds provide in card money
and gear sales, awards, and Dippin Dots sales. The ADM has some history
of success in USA and Canadian Hockey

Smokey,

How are numbers in the other sports? Could numbers be down because kids are less motivated? Is it because more sports or activities are offered than used to be? Is it because kids are specializing more (baseball, volleyball, and softball practice with their academies all winter)?

It seems as though the mentality in all youth sports overall is hurting participation across all sports. However, as I stated before, there are still options in other sports to join recreation type leagues. So IF a parent doesn't want to get intense or specialize - they don't have to. In wrestling (at least in Kansas) there are no options for a true recreation experience.

I'm going to add my 2 cents from both a coach and parent of a young wrestler.

We need to make wrestling FUN at an early age to help young wrestlers fall in love with this great sport. My son actually quit wrestling this season because he was not having fun at practice. The emphasis at the practice was more about "getting better" than about having fun. He is only 6...I could have cared less if he got better or if he won any matches. I wanted him to learn to love the sport first, and then compete second. We will try again next year with the same goals in mind.

There is too much of an emphasis on winning 6U trophies than there is with truly helping young athletes develop a love and passion for the sport.

Make it Fun and they will stick with it. Make it a grind at a young age and they will learn to hate it.

USA Wrestling as a national organization acknowledges and recognizing there is a problem and in 2014 and lightly publicized the ADM - it is up to the states and local organizations to adopt/implement or begin to take some of these suggestions and lead - look at our sport for the long hall ............. Do not say XYZ state is doing 4 and 6 year old state and nationals. Diaper rankings has to stop in all sports. Championship Belts oh my - please do not say it is so.

How many people, coaches, officials, kids of coaches and officials, etc were lost when over 300 college programs were dropped during the 1970's
through the 1990's (or currently)? A bunch. over the last 40-50 years a large knowledgeable fan base.

Mentality of all youth sports PARENTS is a problem more than the kids - true!

ADM needs to be taught to the kids club coaches, HS coaches and college coaches - and educated the dang parents.

Long Term Athlete Development Program:
• Long Term Athlete Development Poster
https://content.themat.com/CoachesCorner/LTADPoster.pdf

• Team USA Athlete Development Model (ADM)
https://www.teamusa.org/About-the-USOC/A...velopment-Model

This topic is the worst and smokeycabin might be the most depressing poster ever. There are many positives out there and things to be excited about in the sport of wrestling and all smokey ever talks about is negative.

what does smokeycabin do on a personal level to make a positive impact to wrestling? positive examples of what works well for individual clubs is what should be focused on.

The worst excuse I hear from a coach or parent "we are fighting a losing battle" / "kids these days just don't want to work hard anymore" / "blah blah blah". Too many coaches and parents use this excuse to not put in the work!

smokeycabin - what kid's club do you coach for, or are you a high school coach, or perhaps associated with a team on the collegiate level? Just curious what your roll is when it comes to direct contact with the wrestlers.

Smokeycabin identified a problem but then ALSO included a solution. I am not sure about you guys but I see him at our home tournament each year. He is a HUGE supporter of wrestling in our state. So, just take his posts for what it is. A call to action, not just a gripe fest. My two cents.

Obviously he supports wrestling with 6k posts on kwca.

Smokeycabin has been a very dedicated tireless youth wrestling coach in Kansas for probably over 25 years. He coached my son on his youth wrestling team for six to seven years. All the parents I know of those kids that my son wrestled with think the world of him and the positive wrestling environment that he gave our kids. A lot of those wrestlers became good wrestlers at the high school level and were part of two state championship teams. He is very dedicated to wrestling and coaching youth wrestlers the correct way. He loves the sport of wrestling and has dedicated most of his life to it. He was also a very successful college wrestler himself. He has also been very dedicated to promoting wrestling at all levels in Kansas, youth, high school and college. He is committed to seeing wrestling growing at all levels. I know he would probably preferred that I did not come to his defense here but I wanted you to know he is an experienced and dedicated youth wrestling coach with many years of experience.

Disagree with Smokey all you want, but you CANNOT question his dedication to the sport of wrestling at ALL levels, Kids through College.

All you are doing when you question his bona fides is show that you are relatively new to Kansas wrestling. Smokey has been one of the biggest boosters our sport has had and has been tireless in his work and free with his time.

Truth hurts sometimes - if the current practices remain the norm - numbers will continue to decline - depressing post yes it is. Truth hurts sometimes! I can promise a few of you the question my time in the sport - I have wore out many many more vehicles coaching and getting wrestlers, (youth, HS, and College) to the gyms in Kansas and around the country. It is your turn to make a difference. Everyone wants the benefits of being part of a national organization - BUT BUT BUT do not want to take the advice available - Just Saying look at the facts.



Any plans for change to stop the declining numbers?

.
The experimental change is not working to sustain maintain,
Or grow the sport in the state.


During the period Nationally HS boys down 28,000 and girls up 8,000 in participation numbers. Overall numbers - 20,000 decline in HS participation - both nationally and in the state of Kansas an approximate 10 percent drop over the 8 year period - in HS participation. That is cause for some discussion on changes to the way we are "growing" the sport.


You Do The Math: High School Participation Numbers

2009/10 Data - NFHS
http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2009-10%20Participation%20Survey.pdf
2016/2017 Data - NFHS
http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2016-17_Participation_Survey_Results.pdf

National Numbers – Wrestling
2016/17 -
Totals - 259,391
Boys – 244,804
Girls – 14,587

2009/10
Totals – 279,024
Boys – 272,890
Girls – 6,134

Kansas Numbers – Wrestling
2016/17
Totals – 4,861
Boys – 4,749
Girls – 112

2009/10
Totals – 5,373
Boys – 5,319
Girls - 54

One thing to understand too is that Smokey who wrestled in college in the early to mid 1980's has seen a heart breaking decline in the number of college wrestling programs especially at the D-1 level nationally. I believe the college he wrestled at Indiana State no longer has a NCAA wrestling program. Having been a first hand witness to this great decline in college wrestling programs nationwide and now seeing declining overall participation numbers Smokey is actively trying to raise awareness here on the forum and facilitate discussion on possible causes and solutions. He truly would just like to see this trend change and be part of the solution.

Mr. Patterson,

I remember watching the 2002 6A KSHSAA High School Championships
and a few guys in our club were there also.

Why are entire towns being relocated from flood plains?
All I am saying is do not wait until the next flood to take action.
Plans are in place - membership needs to take a proactive approach.



Sean McCarthy

Mr. McCarthy,

Not entirely sure what the 2002 6A KSHSAA High School Championships has to do with this topic.

My original inquiry was simply a question. Trust me, it wasn't an attack by any means, even though some seem to think that. I've been involved with KS wrestling in some way or another since 1992 (not very long, but long enough). I wasn't trying to discredit anything that you've done for this sport, at the state or national level. I've obviously never met you, nor have I been involved with the "board" enough to know the behind-the-scenes details of your involvement.

I was just curious what team (club/HS/collegiate) has had the "system" implemented within it that you were/are affiliated with and what the results were? I assume that during your time coaching that you followed the guidelines put forth by the ADM (or something similar if it was before it had been presented) and I was curious as to how it resulted. Short term? Long term? Is it still in place in that club?

I know there's studies of this team and that team, this sport and that sport, across the entire country that show the system being used. I'm not knocking it at all. I was just wondering what the results have been in the past on a more "local" level.

Statistics don't lie. There is obviously a drop in numbers (across all sports) throughout the entire country. This I will not argue, but I believe there are a number of factors affecting this, not just kids being coached to a "high" level at too young of an age, or kids competing too much in a particular sport and getting "burnt out". Not saying that these factors don't come into play here and there.

There were 162 teams represented at this year's Kid's Folkstyle State Championships. Tons of different opinions on youth wrestling and how wrestlers should be brought up. Within our district alone, you can see a huge gap between how the clubs are ran. I'm not saying ours is right and theirs is wrong. We can all agree that it should be "fun"... but one child's definition of fun can be much different than another's. Where do you draw the line?

I've been with the Maize Wrestling Club for 8 years now and we have had very little turnover during that time, with 60-80 kids in our room each year. We have moved to a 3-room system the past few years to keep the intensity levels separate, and it seems to work very well. Again, not saying that we are doing everything right as there's always room for improvement in any aspect of life.

Derek Patterson

My point going back in time should take you back a few years as - to who influenced you to chose your current path in helping kids - which is awesome! KS added a National traveling team for school boy/girl age group around 2003/04 I believe - very age appropriate for the ADM model - getting kids ready for HS. Since that time - nationally and at the state level - National traveling teams have been getting younger and younger
the experiment is not working - we (the sport of wrestling) are losing kids - PERIOD. That is one BIG contributing factors adding
to the decline in HS numbers. Is the state and national agenda
to have all of the male and female Olympic Champs every cycle?


The TOTAL USA club numbers from state to state are not declining because they are starting earlier and earlier - we have more 5 year old kids that never make it to high school. We now have kids barely out of diapers rolling around for trophies. The wrestling community keeps pushing for more younger and younger championships and traveling teams - but we are losing numbers fast on the back end - at the High School level. I can not see as many coaches in the future with 4th grade national champ on their resume whom are running clubs, HS and college programs.

Sean -

I never thought smokey needed defended nor did I question his time in the sport. I asked for personal positive experiences from the poster who started the thread. Was honestly only trying to add to solutions for the questions smokey was asking. Never questioned his love or passion for the sport. Individual experiences that others can learn from are what grows the sport. If asking a related questions to the topic is off limits, then we really are in trouble. Most if not all who post & or read KWCA forum page have been involved in KS wrestling most if not all our lives.

Seems like most sports are down across the board in participation #'s, not just wrestling. Not every state is down in wrestling numbers either, there are many that have grown in numbers. Has KS Wrestling reached out to states like Texas that have grown significantly? What is working for the most successful states?

Particpation numbers in 1969/70 226,681
Participation numbers in 2016/17 259,391

Positive Experiences - worked with an estimated 1,750 - 2,000
young wrestlers grade school, HS, and College. The kids who won their very first match or did not get pinned for the first time stick with me the most. All the funny things kids say - hundreds or many many stories. The wrestlers who will have many W's in their career you can pick out in their very first practice - the sooner you can get the importance of grades in all these kids heads - the better off they will be. If they apply their selves in the class room as much as coaches expect them to give effort on the mat - they will have hundreds of more opportunities if the do well in the classroom and on the mat. All the great friends, other coaches, parents, officials - to many to count and name. Watching the next generation of coaches and kids coming in is encouraging - it is their turn to carry the torch.

What are these participation numbers from? I figured it out.

"Particpation numbers in 1969/70 226,681
Participation numbers in 2016/17 259,391"


There are an estimated 124,000,000 more people in the good old USA
since 1970 - that is over a third of the current population. I would need to find the ages 5-17 date for both years to do a quick review.
The last decade decline is what needs to be looked into. There is an estimated 28,500,000 more kids ages 5-17 since 1970 - using US census data.



Sean - smokeycabin

Another thing besides the population growth that contributed to the change of the numbers from 69/70 226,681 to 16/17 of 259,391 is the change in the number of schools that have teams. The same statistics show that there were only 6,870 schools that had teams in 69/70 so that is an average of almost 33 wrestlers per school in 69/70. Many schools did not have wrestling teams in 69/70. I know my school Rockhurst High School first year for a wrestling team was my senior year in the 68/69 season. I was looking at the 2014/2015 statistics and it showed a similar number of boy wrestlers 258,208 to the 16/17 number and the number of schools at a significant growth of teams at 10,597 which only makes for an average per school of little over 24, so that drop per team from 33 to 24 per team is a little over a 27% drop of wrestlers per team from 69/70 to 2014/2015. I did also notice that in the 1974 year there were 9,130 teams and 319,048 boy wrestlers at just under 35 wrestlers per team. I am not sure if that was the peak year for the number of boy wrestlers, but there has been a significant drop in both the number of high school boy wrestlers both in total numbers and average wrestlers per school team since 1974.

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5067286-you-do-the-math-high-school-participation-numbers

According to flo there are only 12 less wrestlers in KS in similar time period. So who is correct? Flo certainly seems like a credible source to me.

3 new D1 programs added wrestling in last 3 years.
Countless smaller college divisions have added wrestling also.
Largest crowd ever at D1 this year.

What we do need is more wrestling teachers in the schools at all levels. This area seems like a big fail right now.

flowrestling is getting those numbers from the National Federation of State High School Association (NFHS)participation statistics. The 5,008 is from the 2015-16 year, also showing 218 teams or an average of 22.97 wrestlers per team, the 5,020 comes from the 06-07 year which shows 199 teams for an average of 25.23 wrestlers per team so there was about a 9% drop in the wrestlers per team between the two years. Also if you go to the next reporting year 2016-2017 the most current one showing by NFHS it shows for Kansas only 4,749 wrestlers at 216 schools or 21.99 wrestlers per team which is almost a 13% drop in per team members from the 06-07 year. In the 1999-2000 year it was showing 5,143 wrestlers in Kansas on 179 teams or 28.73 wrestlers per team.

I think this gradual dropping of the wrestlers per team in Kansas is a concerning number and reflective of a gradually declining per team participation trend. But maybe I am incorrect in this assessment. I would say some long time Kansas high school coaches could say whether they are noticing a gradual decline in the number of high school wrestlers per team. I know it would not hold true for all teams but if these numbers from NFHS are correct I would think our long time state coaches would be noticing this trend.

Bump