What happened in Hays??

Looking through the Junior brackets for Southern Plains, it seems as if there was very little participation from Kansas. I realize that I'm a little removed from FS/GR but what might the reason(s) be for such a small turnout? Colorado and Oklahoma brought a slew of guys compared to us.

It was very disappointing. Very few of the Junior Dual and Cadet Dual team members were present. Hopefully some of those who didn't come will jump on here and give us some feedback so we can up the numbers next year.

I know I'm not who you want to here from, but I'm tired of all the running! I'm glad it over!

There are so many opportunities now many kids are picking and choosing. I am a big freestyle supporter, but there are so many more folkstyle opportunities now than there used to be that many kids looking for a little extra have their fill now.

It used to be if you were a top end kid wanting some more after HS season you wrestled freestyle as your only other opportunity. There was also very little before HS season. Now you can go to Oklahoma and wrestle for a month, go to the Fall Brawl, preseason nationals, then HS season, then Brute Nationals. A few freestyle local tournaments and a camp or two, and most kids are done. The cadet and national duals, Southern Plains, Fargo etc are competing with a whole new set of competition for all those except the complete die hards. Money is an issue as well for many. Even though $450 is a awesome deal for Fargo. Many have only so much wrestling budget, and with all the other opportunities that money may be gone.

There is also the issue of time commitment. My son is as die hard as most. But here is how it's viewed in a 14-15 year olds mind. He wants to go to Fargo as his #1 priority, that takes a week camp before hand as well. In addition he got accepted to the OTC for a week before that for a once in a lifetime opportunity. So he is going to be gone wrestling the 5th-25th of July. He also wanted to wrestle in the cadet duals, but do be properly prepared for them he felt like he needed to compete in southern plains and do a training camp for that as well. That would mean he would be gone for the whole month of June as well. He is starting to have some other interests and want at least some of his summer. He loves wrestling but ultimately chose to focus on July and take a little break in June. Even during that break he wrestled in the state FS tourney, is practicing (some) and wrestling in Tongie's Thursday night folkstyle league (which is pretty cool). He still has some free time, gets a break and can look forward to July.

Sorry to ramble on but hopefully this provides some prospective. There are alot of kids that really love wrestle and put in a ton of extra time outside HS season, but still have to make choices with all the opportunities available. I completely support those competing in Southern Plains and the duals camps, teams. I wish Bo was wrestling in them, but we have chosen Fargo as the priority of the summer. It's just to the point for most you can't do it all.

Thanks for listening,

Mike Pursel

That was a very good post, Mike. I think you made some great points.

Personally I think it is very tough to keep the wrestlers interest up as the summer goes on. I am one of those who wish that State was earlier. I do not think they necessarily need to be wrestling tournaments in the summer and a little time off from tournaments is probably very good for most of them to give their bodies and minds a break from the grind and time to refresh. Going further is okay for the national level kids but I think it is okay for most of them to finish their freestyle greco seasons at State and to partake in some other activities during the summer. I also think it would be good for most of the wrestlers if freestyle/greco state was held earlier in May before school ends and their summer vacations begin.

I am just glad that my son is still enthused about going to freestyle practices four nights a week and I had no problem with him deciding not to wrestle at Southern Plains or any other torunaments the rest of the summer if that is what he chooses to do. I think Southern Plains was too close to our State and for our family State was more important for him to participate in than Southern Plains this year. He has wrestled at State the last two years. He did wrestle at Southern Plains in 2008 and he made the decision before State that he was not going to wrestle at Southern Plains again this year.

Great Posts,

when do you think we should have state next year May 1, May 8, May 15?
I agree with you in there is just too much to choose from, we need to change and adapt or we will just keep dwindling down and kids will look else where.
Besides rest in late May and early June the kids could get,

we could actually maybe put some emphasis on training and preparing for competition.
Even in the Rocky movies the training was a big part of the overall show.

Coach Peterman

Coach Peterman:

Personally I think you want it early in May. I think either the 1st or the 8th would work. Missouri did their State tournament on May 2nd and the 3rd. I believe they did freestyle on the 2nd and Greco on the 3rd. I think our Greco and Freestyle should be on separate days too. I really don't think it is fair to the wrestlers doing both styles to have them both on the same day. I also think it makes it too long of a day at this time of year for both the wrestlers and fans. They are used to the preseason Olympic style tournaments getting over early in the afternoon in the tournaments before State. I think the wrestlers and fans both like that and that will help get them back the next year. The nicer the weather starts to get the less people want to spend all day long in a hot gym. Shorter tournaments are better in the nicer weather months. We had our Kansas State tournament around May 10 in 2008 in Junction City. I think that date worked fine. If you go beyond that in May you do start to run into conflicts with graduations. So my vote would be for a two day tournament (one day Greco and one day Freestyle) on either May 1 or May 8 next year.

Thanks for the info, guys. I wasn't sure what the barometer was on FS/GR outside of a few locals. I sure wish I could get back involved on some level. Between my administrator duties and my three daughters' schedules I'm struggling to find that time. If anyone has some ideas of how I can help out, feel free to send me a message.

Have a great summer!
Ryan

Ryan,

Have some sons! Or adopt some! That will get you back into it!

State tournament about May 8-10 would be ideal.

I agree that the State Tournament should be in May but keep it to one day. Of if it is going to be split then make Greco Friday Night and Freestyle Saturday Day.

I agree that we could do at least a few round of greco on friday night, then finish greco by mid morning Sat, and finish freestyle by mid afternoon on Sat.

Weigh Friday morning and finish Greco on Friday. Weigh Friday afternoon and do one round of Freestyle Friday night. Finish Freestyle on Saturday.

How about more importantly everyone start SERIOUSLY looking at this if participation increases are what is desired:

Folkstyle season: Run from Thanksgiving to MLK Day, Start the state series either MLK day weekend or the following. Subs/District last two weekends in January, Kids state first weekend in February.
*This eliminates high school kids (16&U). To provide for older junior high kids bump 14&U to 15&U.
*However, benefits include the shortened season (and mental toll) on both parents and kids. Those same parents and kids could then take February to attend High School League, regional and State meets, or use it for a well deserved few week rest.

FS/GR Season: Run from March 1 through Fargo. Have State last weekend in April/first weekend in May. Use state as qualifier for ALL national teams: Kids, Cadets and Juniors. Rotate state every year between the eight sub-districts.
*This allows for plenty of time to finalize rosters and have training camps.
*Those that end their season at state every year will be done and have their summer as soon as schools out. Those that don't can take a few weeks to recover and study for finals during the beginning of May before starting the regional/national circuit.

Brett:

I think you make some very good points, including your 15 & U suggestion. I agree with you and I believe a lot of Kansas wrestling people do. I know at one time a few years ago the Kansas high school coaches association came to our Kansas Kids State board with basically that same suggestion of ending the Kids season earlier for the reasons you have stated.

I think we do have too long of a season for kids folkstyle and it would be good if it ended before high school regionals started. That way they could more conveniently attend the high school state tournament series and even the NCAA's if their families wanted to go to that. Also it would allow for an earlier start to freestyle/greco for both kids and high school wrestlers. My son just graduated from high school and he only ended up wrestling freestyle/greco the last two years after his junior and senior year. I wish Kansas had the system you are describing in place when he was a kid because I think he would have gotten involved in FS/Greco earlier in his career and it would have helped him. He is just starting to get to the point that he is liking freestyle. I think it is good to be involved in the olympic styles because it gets you more mat time, improves your skills on your feet and is a nice change of pace from just wrestling folkstyle.

I think making the changes that you are suggesting would definitely be a significant change of emphasis in wrestling in Kansas. I think it would be an improvement. I think there would need to be some other changes that need to happen at the same time. Like allowing middle school wrestlers to wrestle kids wrestling at the same time of their middle school season and allowing high school coaches to get involved in kids wrestling programs during their seasons and off season high school wrestling programs even before school is done for the year.

Please keep in mind that if you try to "shorten" the season the way you want to, you are only benefitting the eastern side of the state. In Western Kansas, we don't hit the practice room until December and then there are no tournaments scheduled until January at the earliest. I travel a tremendous amount during the wrestling season, for kids, middle school and high school events. I really don't want to be adding more miles to what I already have to travel, and doing it the way you want to would only decrease the numbers of kids involved in wrestling in Western Kansas. Believe it or not, my middle school kids and high school kids love coming to the wrestling room after their seasons because they feel like they have something to contribute to the younger generation of wrestlers, and seeing the admiration on the younger kids' faces when the older kids hit the room, puts a smile in my heart.

Just a few things to think about.

Just curious, why are you waiting to hit the practice room in December? There are lots of tournaments in CO and TX that are closer than driving to Eastern Kansas. Shortening the kids flk season will benefit all. Even if you wait until December the season will be more than two months long.

Sandra,

I am not really understanding how these proposed changes would necessarily decrease the numbers of kids wrestling in Western Kansas. Maybe it would somehow but I am not exactly sure why.

Wouldn't it be good for the kids to watch the older boys at their high school regionals and State tournaments? Also they would still in most places still be in the wrestling rooms with the older boys practicing. They would just be practicing freestyle/greco and not folkstyle. I think everyone would like to see freestyle/greco wrestling participation increase in the entire State of Kansas including Western Kansas.

I agree that there needs to be a significant shift in the season to increase overall participation in the olympic styles. I know that USA wrestling realizes the limited success in China was a direct result of our emphasis on folkstyle competition, how long it takes to bleed down will be key.

Exactly WHY we should shoten the season (you in a sense already are by not starting until December/January).

There are TOO MANY folkstyle tournaments, spread out over too long of a length of time. By shortening the season, everyone will benefit by having high quality tournaments with high quality opponents.

If it was up to me, there would be 8 folkstyle tournies per weekend: 4 opens Saturday, 4 novices/6&U on Sundays, spread equally between every sub-district (ie. D1/2/3/4 A all host opens Saturday, D1/2/3/4 B hosts novices Sunday, next weekend B subs get opens, A subs get novices, etc, etc). This option presents opportunities for everyone in every sub-district to be able to attend tournaments within reasonable driving distance at minimum of every other weekend. This is the same reasoning I have behind having FS/GR state rotate between the 8 subs (if it is in your area, you're more likely to participate).

Football is done in Kansas by Thanksgiving, perfect starting time for wrestling. Have two solid months of competition (instead of 4 watered down months), then state series wrapped up with state the first weekend of February.

Also, IMO, the middle/high school and little kids will get a lot more out of going straight into intense FS/GR stuff by March 1. Little ones have trouble when first learning FS/GR because of the rule differences (locking hands is a biggie). The little kids are going to benefit way more by seeing the older kids train hard for FS/GR, than by watching them wind down their folkstyle season with "Kids" wrestling. I'm sorry, but to 95% of the guys, once you hit freshman year, USAWKS titles don't mean as much. How many times do HS kids come to kids' folkstyle practice and do nothing, or maybe help a few little ones out, or maybe not show up at all until tournament time, or definitely not condition when practice is ending, etc, etc?

We need high quality opportunities, not high quanity.

Our middle schoolers would be totally eliminated because the seasons for them and the kids programs would coincide. Our middle schoolers wrestle from Jan-mid Feb and that is it. Until KSHSAA changes the rules to let them wrestle both, then they would not be able to do the qualifying tournaments, unless they choose to not do middle school. Of course, I am very excited and hopeful that Western Kansas schools will adopt the same wrestling season for middle school that I see part of the schools in the state going to-right after football season, that would help tremendously. As far as when we get into the wrestling room--that is a school admin topic that I have no control over--it was like pulling teeth just to convince them to let us in for freestyle/greco until July this year, but hey, baby steps right?? As far as going to other states to wrestle and it being closer---still wouldn't work, esp. at that time of year since I would have football games on Friday nights and/or Saturdays since it is playoff time for the high schoolers. I would still have to travel a very long distance to get them to a wrestling tournament. Plus, I guess you could say I am a HOME STATE person--like to keep the $$$$$ going to as many home state clubs that I can. On the flip side of things, if I had to, I would do the extra travelling, if that is what the boys would want.

I am not disagreeing with anyone that we need a change is either the seasons and/or the thinking of admin people in not only our club and the KSHSAA, but just trying to be a "devil's advocate" and trying to let you know what I hear.

I know at our house we are juggling baseball, wrestling, making money, and friends. He can't do it all so decided Fargo was #1 choice and he already secured a spot for the team at state so did not do regionals or cadet duals. I know money has a lot to do with low participation for wrestlers in our area.

This is all good discussion and I know that I'm new to this talk forum, but how do we go about making the changes that are being talked about. The season schedule that Brett put forth makes total sense. Who do we talk too, who do I need to call, we can't just talk on this forum about this stuff we need to get a move on before schedules are set for next season and if they are set then lets get things going for the season after.

Regarding the middle school stuff...I believe that one is on the KSHSAA for not mandating a "real" season for junior high wrestling. One mentioned middle school program runs from Jan--mid Feb, while where I grew up we did our season BEFORE club stuff started, from Octo--beginning of Dec.

If I had any power at the KSHSAA I'd either make the season from Oct-Dec leaving club alone, or from jan-Feb and have a JR high state along with hs state.