I am speaking to someone, who approached me, regarding the potential of starting a new national tournament that would include a division for Kids, Jr. High and High School in Kansas. This group already does several successful tournaments on the East Coast but is looking at doing something in the Midwest, which would draw more wrestlers from around the country. There is even talk of making this tournament one of a series for a national award that already exists. My questions here are what are the best dates that would allow High School and Jr. High wrestlers to participate without interfering with KSHAA rules and at the same time interfere with other large, national scale tournaments? The other question would center on the best location and city for the event? I will appreciate the responses I get to this and will share more information as we move along.

2nd week in April, the week after Brute Nationals would be good

Venue=Ahearn in Manhattan
Lee Arena=Topeka

The 2nd week of April is now the date for USA Folkstyle Nationals in Iowa. They moved to not be in conflict with Reno.

Honestly Mike, As a Kansas I would love for KS to be the site for a big tournament. Less travel for good competition, but it seems like there is a new "national" popping up every week. I.E. Bighorn Nationals in Denver that is affiliated with Liberty Nationals. Nationals are becoming just a name. There is just too many. They are not nationals anymore. People have to decide which circuit to follow or how much money they can allocate. I love to take my son to tough events but I actually believe that it has cheapened the real nationals that were the originals. (USA, Tulsa, etc).

Just my two cents. That said if there is a tough tournament close it would be great. I just kinda have a hangup with the "nationals" thing. As for location, Wichita would draw the most people I believe.

24/7

hmm tough one here, originally i thought maybe the week before Subdistricts in March (first week in march) but then remembered that would conflict with the Wichita Classic...HOWEVER, if marketed properly, the Wichita Classic could be turned into a National event with the venue being the Coliseum just one week after the 5A-6A High School State championships. This could also bring those 1-4A high schoolers back to the Kansas Coliseum for the "experience" of a national tournament. Other than that, then the week after Kansas Kids State looks like a good time also.

Roller productions has their schedule out as well, and that 2nd week in April would fall right smack in the middle between Reno Worlds and the Mid-America Classic.

Just a few things to ponder, but I agree that a National Level Tournament would be GREAT for the state of KANSAS!

Hey Mike,
Check on a girls div.
Karissa said that would be cool.

I agree with the thoughts of 24/7. The word, "Nationals" seems to have a diminished meaning these days. Just like being an "All-American" has lost certain luster.

Before you know it, there will be a "Champ of the Universe" or an "All-Inter-Galactic!"

My basic thoughts are that there's no way a tournament can claim they are a National tourney unless there is a legitimate qualifying. (not just signing up)

Randy and others, thanks for the comments and I agree with many of the things you are saying. Randy I really like the concept of qualifying for the tournament. What I will say is that this individual is doing a very popular series on the East Coast and they are wanting to find ways to step into the Midwest. I'll also say that their Jr. High and High School tournament is one of the top tournaments in the country. I will be speaking to them more this afternoon and discussing ideas and all. I’ll also say that they are looking at the possibility of adding the Kansas site to their national points system that determines their end of year “National Awards.”

Randy you make mention of the qualifying thing and I like that. Could you require qualifications kind of like the Ohio Tournament of Champions or what? I kind of accept the fact for example, that for kids anyway, that Tulsa is a National level tournament and they don't have qualifying. The question becomes, how do you generate enough wrestlers to make a profit or not loose money, and at the same time, draw the kids that would qualify the tournament as a national? Keep the ideas and dates coming.

It seems that a lot of people involved in our youth tournaments these days see ... that if I call myself a National tournament ... kids will come. The concept of "making money" is a given but who are those "money makers" going after?

I don't know ... it's the whole idea of commercializing amateur sports. And of profiteering in a sport that might be struggling with the costs of the same.

I'm not thinking too clearly right now but on these forums we have often debated 6 and unders, too much pressure on kids, etc.. I know that I will get beat up for this ... but here it goes ... I have to think the value in competing for these "series" events is misplaced and adds a whole new element of pressure on kids.

If as a 6-year-old or a 9-year-old, I can become a National Champion, in an event that has no or at the best, watered-down, competition; then my feeling is that we are stroking the ego of parents.

Further, I'm not sure that if there is a true qualification for these "All-Americans" that we are not placing too much pressure on our youth.

Wrestling tournaments have become "big money" for some. Many of these events, such as Tulsa Nationals or Reno Nationals and others, are not USAW sanctioned events. At least, Bill Gosset who runs Liberty and Bighorn Nationals, is a supporter of USAW.

I hope that I am not being too hypocritical in my beliefs. After all, I suggest to those attending my Bronze clinics that they personalize their medals and brackets for their tourneys. We need to award our young people. Maybe it should be more for competing than for accomplishing.

Some interesting perspectives here. I agree with a lot of what Randy says and understand his perspective. The Parade article supplied by Richard has a lot of great points but i think it is alarmist and extreme. I am going to vent a bit here so i apologize in advance.

I have been accused of being one of those rabid parents/coaches. My only goal for my son and my numerous foster kids in my group home is that i expose to wrestling, is NOT about getting All-American honors or state championships. I want them to learn about work ethic,life lessons and overcoming obstacles. I would rather that take place in the classroom and on the mat as opposed to finding out through a hard knock life. I could care less whether they play college sports but i know dang well they will be better off for having wrestled.

I love the articles about overzealous parents wanting their kids to be stars. I contrast them with some of the horrendous abusive parenting stories of the kids i work and live with. The answer is not in either extreme but is in the middle and maintaining the perspective needed to help our kids get the true lessons out of sports.

Recently, I sat down with our local parents group for our high school wrestling team. At that meeting, my son was at 28 day JRobinson camp at the time mind you and I will have 5 foster boys on the squad this season, I was told by parents that I was "crazy" to set the expectation for our kids to work as hard as the other high school teams in our region. I literally was told that we needed to "set the bar lower" The parents agreed that they wanted the squad to be more successfull, but not at the cost of working harder. Now that is a scary attitude in my book.

Bring all the opportunities you can to Kansas, the best wrestling i have seen in the nation has been here at home. Why not?

First, as for promoting USAW tourneys vs. non-sanctioned one, I will not apologize for being a USAW loyalist and extolling the virtues of the same. After all, these message boards that we are conversing on are supported by USAW-Kansas. I don't believe AAU, Roller Productions, etc are providing any funds to support the Kansas Wrestling Forums.

Next, I wholeheartedly support bringing top-level tourneys to Kansas. Again, my issue in this, let’s say I have a “King of the World” youth wrestling tournament. And there is no entry qualification (other than age and weight) and essentially this is an invitational tournament. The winners of this tourney get a fancy trophy crown and a t-shirt that extols them as being the “King of the World” winner.

Also in my tournament I claim that the top 6 placers receive “All-American” status even if there are less than 6 entries in the division. A competitor can go 0-2 and still proclaim AA status. Occasionally we run into this same problem at our state level tournament. A few years ago, we had kids placing as an AA in the Folkstyle Nationals that did not even place in their own District tourney.

Today, a kid has many tournaments they can enter and if they win it, they can claim to be a National champ. Even the KSHSAA has 4 State champs at every weight class. I think, especially in younger wrestlers, this sets up an interesting dynamic. What happens to a kid, who wins a National tournament, and goes 0-2 at a local tourney?

My real problem lies in what tournaments call themselves! Some have expressed concerns over Ottawa, claiming to hold the 6 & under STATE championships. But really there is not much we could do if they wanted to call the tournament, the “6 & under Championships of the World.”

I agree with Klint’s “middle of the road” approach. But my belief is that if a parent can find a tournament that their wrestler (under 12) can obtain All-American status, regardless of how watered down it might be, they will do it.

It is a delicate balance. I support Mike’s efforts to bring a tournament to Kansas!

Couple of things here and I appreciate the comments. Randy, you know how much I think of you, respect you, and like you, nothing is going to change that, and frankly after speaking to the tournament director in question, he has been on the board, seen some of the comments and I believe is going to be making a post later on. My desire is to see the best possible opportunities for our Kansas kids, not just kids though, but especially our high school wrestlers who are the ones that can take wrestling to the next step for Kansans in my opinion.

Couple of comments; Dave (the tournament director), who will likely post later, has made comment that he agrees with much of what has been said here. I think that is one of the things that makes things different with him. He don't want to, or will not use, the concept of a "National Tournament" or "National Champion" with the tourney. If things go through, there will be people coming from all across the nation and that is a good thing. There is a good chance that we will get kids from the South and other Eastern States like Pennsylvania to come to the tournament, again, especially on a high school level. Another thing different about this tournament is that some college scholarship monies are given to senior wrestlers who participate and qualify. So from that perspective, effort would be made to help Kansas wrestlers. I think in the past that both in state and out of state scholarships are given for the wrestlers at his other tournaments. I won't say much more there because Dave will likely comment on that.

Hope this gives some clarification and he will be able to speak more as to details than I. Last thing here, remember that nothing is in stone, but in early stages of discussion. Hopefully it comes through, but will have to wait and see. It is good though that others outside of Kansas are seeing the potential here.

If this is an opportunity for our Middle Schoolers and High Schoolers to have another Folkstyle tournament to showcase their talents, then I am absolutely in favor of this.

I have often argued with those that think Kansas gets overlooked on the National level. My issue has always been, most Kansas prepsters don't get any National exposure. This is a way to get that exposure!

And, this would be a pretty good test of the state of Kansas wrestling!

just a thought here...thinking out loud (for you Mike ) wouldn't it be a great thing to actually have some DI college opportunities in the state of Kansas for Kansas wrestlers? and...coming off your last post Mike, if scholarship opportunities exist from a local/National tournament wouldn't that help in the drive to create more college opportunities in the state of Kansas (i.e. K-State and KU)? I would surely hope that by the time my kids are graduating from high school that there would be well established programs at either or both of these fine universities as do a lot of other hopeful Kansans on this board.

I'd support a USAW event if I could get into events free with a coaching card as opposed to non sactioned ones that still might charge you to get in as a coach.

Hello and first time poster here!

My name is David Barker and I am a co-director for the Super 32 Challenge "Battle for the Belt" wrestling tournament which will be held October 29 in Greensboro(NC). I have talked to Mike several times in efforts of starting a great tournament in KS that could hopefully become part of a series with our pre-season event.

I have read and understand the concerns posted here about the abundance of "national" tournaments that keep popping up. As Mike mentioned, we do not use the word National nor All-American in our event. We believe that the quality of a tournament is not necessarily determined by its name, but rather by its competitivenes.

For the last few years, our tournament has been within a week or two of another preseason "national" tournament also held in North Carolina. I believe the Super 32 has much greater depth and competition in the high school division than this "national" tournament. Wrestlers who place in the Super 32 are not named "All Americans", yet I believe that they are better off from the competition they get rather than a title which they didn't have to work very hard to earn.

Anyway, here is a little background on our tournament. The Super 32 Challenge: "Battle for the Belt" is a one-day tournament in Greensboro, North Carolina that attracts top wrestlers from across the country. 2005 will be the 7th year and we expect over 1000 entries. We are very excited to be moving to a new location - the Greensboro Coliseum Special Events Center will allow us to run the tournament on 20 mats in the same area. This year's tournament will be held on October 29. The Super 32 Challenge is quickly becoming one of the largest and most competitive pre-season tournaments for High School and Middle School wrestlers. The 2004 High School Division featured 77 State Champions, 36 State Runners-Up, 80 State Placers (3rd-6th), and 125 State Qualifiers, representing 15 states. Over the past 6 years, our tournament has increased from just over 100 entries to over 700

We differ from other events in that each year, the Super 32 Challenge will award scholarships to at least 2 seniors that compete in the Super 32 Challenge. Over the past 3 years, a total of $2500 has been awarded to 8 different seniors. We also pay table workers which school use as a fundraiser. And last but not least, we currently offer a custom championship belt to the winner in each high school division.

Our webpage is http://www.super32.com

We hope to work with Mike and others in the KS community to bring a top notch event to Kansas.

Yours in wrestling,
Dave

I'm not sure they understand that we only have one facility in the state even close to large enough to host a wrestling event of any size.

Richard,

"The SUPER32 web site proclaims "No membership card required" which I believe is directed towards North Carolina USA Wrestling."

I do not know why you think that is directed at NCUSAW. Sara Koenig(the other director and editor of NCMAT) and myself are supporters for USAW. Sara served as the NC team leader for several years before her moved to PA. Check out our website http://www.ncmat.com

That comment is a way to save ourselves time answering emails. NC is nothing like KS. In NC, there are 4 organizations. There are more NHSCA tournaments, followed by AAU, USAW, and "other."

Does it really matter who puts on the tournament as long as it supports and gives something back to the sport?

Virtually all tournaments in Kansas are USAW sanctioned. When in Rome!

What about middle school and high school tournaments and wrestlers, of which this tournament would be targeting? I would also like to see someone answer some of the points that bking brings up, because those numbers are way below the total number of middle school and high school wrestlers who partcipate in Kansas. Does the when in Rome thing still apply then? :rolleyes: I would say that I agree with sportsfan premise regarding kids tournaments, but don't think I would regarding the schools. Truth is there is a lot of non USA Wrestling in Kansas. Do you provide opportunities for the school aged wrestlers that benefits the many or the few? I just think that the same logic here could also be used for the New Years Bash at Hays, neither is it a USA tournament but it is providing opportunity to USA Wrestlers, and many others. I see that as a good thing, especially if it can find ways to promote USA Wrestling.

I would say if the NC folks can find a date when the proposed tournament doesn't conflict with a USAW state, regional or national event, when Kansas kids are not involved with the high school season, when a facility (remember regardless of what bking said, there is only one in the state) is available, available at a reasonable rental rate, then go for it! We Kansans may not be the smartest people in the world, but I'm reasonably sure that someone has looked at the possibility of a national tournament here in the past, and found the month of August would work.