On the Mat.com they have a discussion about the best state tournaments in the nation. I have just picked the Iowa discussion about their state tournament for your review. I also talked to several college recruiters this year about the Kansas format and they absolutely hate 3 now maybe 4 different locations next year. I am sorry for my comments but the state is going in the wrong direction having all of these locations. Back in the mid 80's I did some college recruiting and looked at some Kansas kids then and we did get a few guys Kansas. If the format
with 3 locations were that way back then I do not think we would have used the recruiting budget to travel to 3 different locations. I know we would not have done that. Anyway, here is a little insight to Iowa's format.

Member
IA, USA
Total Posts: 2177
Posted: 03/01/2007 at 9:16:20 pm
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leglace said "Best run state tournament.
So far I have been to the Pa (8 yrs ago), Nj, Fl state tournament. And I have to say that NJ has the most energized tournament. Its hard to beat the venue, on the boardwalk, fillee with fanatics. The Star Ledger coverage makes these wrestlers seem like rock stars. The energy in the stands, and great lighting. I bring this up because its hard to imagine a more exciting event! Any other states have a top notch state wrestling event?
"When all else fails, do the opposite"
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I think Sports Illustrated did an article a few years ago about the Iowa State High School Wrestling tournament. It's been changed to 4 days instead of 3, and held at a new venue (was at Vet's Stadium in Des Moines forever). I think they said they had around 90,000 total attendance for all sessions. The Finals are broadcast statewide (and were on the Internet this year - YES!), yet have sold out well in advance for many, many years (I've been going quite a bit since the mid 70's and it's always been full to my knowledge). Former Hawkeye National Champ Mark Ironside and Cyclone Champ and Coach Jim Gibbons were 2 of the 3 broadcasters for the event. Can't imagine it gets much better than that. With all the small rural towns, if one of their own makes it to the tourney, there may be only a few folks left at home to "guard" the town. It's a big deal in Iowa, let's put it that way.
State Dual Tournament is this weekend or next. Never been to that one, I think it's been going on since the early 90's. Not near the spectacle the traditional tournament is.
I live in Minnesota now, they recently switched to a four day tourney as well (but they combine the team and individuals in the same setting). They were canceled because of weather tonight actually. Hockey is the dealio here though I believe.
GO HAWKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am well aware of todays technology which allows parents to send video of their kids much quicker to colleges. But for personal visits and to watch kids compete in a pressure situtation 3 and 4 locations per state is wrong. As I stated
above the college recruiters I talked to are very much apposed to the Kansas format. They did show up at 5A & 6A but they did not send anyone to the 1,2,3A or the 4A. There is a lot of kids in Kansas getting overlooked if that is the norm of these college coaches.

I have always enjoyed 321a being in hays and being by itself, but i understand the point you are presenting and think it is pretty valid. My only thought on having them all put together is that if you are going to do it, you need to wrestle the state championship matches 1 at a time. When i heard(several years ago) that they wrestled all 3(when 4a was in Wichita) state championship matches at the same time i could not believe it. To me it almost seems disrespectful to me that they wrestle three state championship matches at the same time, 2 kids who has worked his butts off all year to get to the highest stage in high school wrestling has to share his glory with 4 other kids on 2 diffrent mats while they are wrestling. Also if you have a high profile match going on one mat then i think it really takes away from the kids wrestling on the other mats. Also, and i could be wrong, but a friend of mine from Iowa made it sound like they wrestle the state championship matches 1 at at time and if you are going for a great atmosphere then i think that would be the best way to do it. I know this might seem like a silly point and a really minor detail to some of you but to me i would feel cheated if i was a kid wrestling a match for a state tittle and had to share the stage with someone else, just my thought on the whole deal, althought i do agree showing off all of our talent on one stage might be a pretty good deal as far as recruiting goes.

Combine 4 classes into 3 and it is a 3 day tournament. With Championship matches separate on day 3. Or leave it the same and it is a 4 day tournament with championship matches seperate on days 3 & 4. I am not sure of the exact format but the current format is terrible for exposure of these kids. Not all kids are able to summer wrestle and many are very capable of competing at the next level and getting a college degree.

Smokeycabin says " I also talked to several college recruiters this year about the Kansas format and they absolutely hate 3 now maybe 4 different locations next year."

I served as the Jr. National Director for a number of years and worked with many college coaches to get Kansas wrestlers Div. I Scholarships. Wrestlers like: Joe Johnston(Iowa), Zach Roberson (ISU), Shawn Bunch (Edinboro), Bo Maynes (OU), Justin Dyer (OU), Matt Murray (Neb.), Jacob Klein (Neb.) just to name a few.
Most of the Div. I coaches do not want to see the kids at the State Tourn. They would much rather see them compete against the National Level, such as: Cadet and Jr. Nationals. Cadet and Jr. Duals. High School Nationals (now open to Sophomores, Juniors and Seniors).
To say that the Kansas High School State Tournaments should not go to several different locations because the college coaches do not like it, is in my opinion not a valid arguement. That is like saying college coaches will not recruit Kansas Football, Basketball, or volleyball players because their state tournaments are mostly at different locations. College coaches will find the best athletes, espcially if the ones that want to wrestle in college go to the National Tournaments.
Bill Johnson-Norton High School

Wouldn't it be something to have all of these classifications at one location then take the 4 first place kids at each weight and wrestle them in a grand state type competition. You wouldn't have to have another whole tournament for grand state and it would end the wars about which classification is strongest. It would allow college recruiters to attend our state and really show off the potential of our wrestlers. Extend it from a 2 day tournament to a 4 day tournament and it would be awesome. Now if we could only find a facility to house 12-16 mats.

Bill Johnson one of the D-I guys on your list is now one of the scouting/recruiting college coaches who I talked at length about this issue. It is not just the D-I and summer wrestling guys because they will get recognized. I am not trying to start an arguement with you. This has been my observation not scientific research. I think we (The State of Kansas KSHAA) are limiting the exposure of these kids. I think they can get more in state & national exposure by having 1 state tournament. Most college coaching staffs pick the state, regional, national tournaments they are going to in January. Typically football, basketball college staffs and budgets are much larger. Volleyball and wrestling staffs and budgets are more in line with each other at the college & high school level. Thus less available visits or trips.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club

I have a correction to your post, it should say
"Go Cyclones!!!!!!!!"

I agree with the comment from "Cyclone" about Kansas taking a step backward. The split tournaments is very regressive. The topic has addressed well the aspects of recruiting that hurts the Kansas kids.

I think the whole wrestling community suffers. The state tournament is kind of like a big convention were everybody gets together to see what's going on in wrestling. Having everything together promotes the sport. I think it should be a primary goal to promote and grow our sport. We should do every little thing we can to do this, and splitting up the tournaments is just breaking up the sport into little fiefdoms. Just curious, who was responsible for splitting off 4A. I like to see a name of the person responsible for taking Kanas wrestling backwards.

I've been to 4 other state tournaments, and all of them had every classification wrestling at the same site. Kansas is the only exception to having split sites. Also curious to see how many other states split their tournaments up. I'd assume not many. I've been to Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri and Ohio. Overall atmosphere is more intense and bigger than Kansas. Sites of tourneys, with exception of Iowa,were held at the big state University (Mizzou, Univ of Neb, and Ohio State). I think this adds to the tournaments.
Level of wrestliing in Ohio is unbelievable and state does a lot of little things that make tournament better. They are very progressive in Ohio. I'll make a list in of suggestions in another post.

First thing Kansas should do is combine. I could be wrong but the economy of scale of having one tournament would make more money. It has to cost a lot more to rent 3 sites instead of 1.

K-State would be an awesome central location. They have the field house to do it. Maybe you have to go three days, but this would be the show, not just another tourmament.

As a parent I HATE that the State Tournament is being split up! After years of knowing and watching these kids wrestle, we had to go to Salina and could not watch the other classes. It was quite disappointing. It did not seem like the big stage it used to be when we were together. Not to mention the fact that we paid the same amount of money to see less! I agree it is going the wrong direction, and it would be nice if the powers that be would take a closer look at what they are doing. We don't like it!!!

I don't think there is a location in the state that could hold a single state wrestling tournament.

Combine 4A & 5A I am sure the Salina Convention and Vistors Bureau and the Chamber of Commerce would love it. Who and why are we splitting all these tournaments up? Show me the numbers
I am talking about dollars spent and revenue generated. I would love to watch these teams below along with 5A. You can spin it any way you want. We are hurting the sport by splitting this up.

4A Teams
Regional Tournament @ Baldwin

Abilene
Baldwin
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail
Chapman
Council Grove
DeSoto
Eudora
Fort Scott
Garnett-Anderson County
LaCygne-Prairie View
Lenexa-Saint James Academy
Louisburg
Osawatomie
Paola
Spring Hill
Regional Tournament @ Douglass

Altamont-Labette County
Andover
Andover-Central
Augusta
Chanute
Coffeyville-Field Kindley
Columbus
Douglass
El Dorado
Independence
Mulvane
Parsons
Pittsburg
Rose Hill
Towanda-Circle
Regional Tournament @ Holton

Atchison
Basehor-Basehor-Linwood
Clay Center-Clay Center Comm.
Concordia
Hiawatha
Holton
Hoyt-Royal Valley
Kansas City-Piper
Kansas City-Bishop Ward
Marysville
Meriden-Jefferson West
Perry--Perry-Lecompton
Tonganoxie
Topeka-Hayden
Wamego
Regional Tournament @ Pratt

Andale
Buhler
Clearwater
Colby
Goodland
Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian
Hugoton
Larned
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley
Nickerson
Pratt
Russell
Ulysses
Wellington

Regional Tournament @ Baldwin

Abilene
Baldwin
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail
Chapman
Council Grove
DeSoto
Eudora
Fort Scott
Garnett-Anderson County
LaCygne-Prairie View
Lenexa-Saint James Academy
Louisburg
Osawatomie
Paola
Spring Hill
Regional Tournament @ Douglass

Altamont-Labette County
Andover
Andover-Central
Augusta
Chanute
Coffeyville-Field Kindley
Columbus
Douglass
El Dorado
Independence
Mulvane
Parsons
Pittsburg
Rose Hill
Towanda-Circle
Regional Tournament @ Holton

Atchison
Basehor-Basehor-Linwood
Clay Center-Clay Center Comm.
Concordia
Hiawatha
Holton
Hoyt-Royal Valley
Kansas City-Piper
Kansas City-Bishop Ward
Marysville
Meriden-Jefferson West
Perry--Perry-Lecompton
Tonganoxie
Topeka-Hayden
Wamego
Regional Tournament @ Pratt

Andale
Buhler
Clearwater
Colby
Goodland
Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian
Hugoton
Larned
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley
Nickerson
Pratt
Russell
Ulysses
Wellington

Combine 1,2,3A & 6A I am sure the Hays Convention and Vistors Bureau and the Chamber of Commerce would love it. Who and why are we splitting all these tournaments up? Show me the numbers
I am talking about dollars spent and revenue generated. I would love to watch these teams 1,2,3A & 6A in 1 place. You can spin it any way you want. We are hurting the sport by splitting this up.

Salina & Hays could handle what I discussed above. They each had kids tournaments with many more wrestlers. Salina had over 1000 kids and Hays had around 900 I think. Just and idea for the powers to be. Trying to think outside the BOX.

It's not the entry numbers, it is the number of mats. How many of those entries wrestled on full size mats? Salina can only handle 6 full mats on the floor thus they would be limited to two classes.

SmokeyKnowAll -

A few questions for you, how many of the state participants go one to compete in college?

Have you ever asked a kid that has competed in the State Finals when he has to share with two other matches, such was the case when Wichita had the 3 classes?

Have you asked coaches the have coached in the different venues?

My point is this isnt about the fans that want to see all, this isnt about the recruiters, (which Coach Johnosn is exactly correct, the scholarships dont come from our state meet). It is about the kids and having each state broken up gives them the best experience. To the majority of the kids this will be their last competition.

Too many times everyone forgets about who this sport is for.... THE KIDS

In my opinion the tournament should be held in one location if at all possible. Several good points could be made.

1) in regards to it affecting college recruiting I agree with Bill Johnson in terms of college coaches prefering kids who are competing in Fargo an on the national circuit. However, I think that is primarily with the Division I schools and particularly the more competitive D-1 schools, say top 30. However, I don't think that is as true for
Non-Division I schools. Most of the kids are not going to go D-I. They are going to primarily go D-II or JUCO and some NAIA. Maybe a few D-III. Those schools are going to compete largely for the better "state level" and not as much for the national level kids... with the exception of you elite D-II and maybe elite JUCO schools. So having it in one location will help bring college scouts in to some degree, but you would mainly be looking at schools that are in bordering states. Most likely the will have some knowledge regardless, but I think you could get some of those colleges scouts in. No probably not Nebraska, OU, MU etc.... but maybe Kearny NE, UNO, UCO, Northern CO, etc.

2) I don't know all the costs but financially I can't imagine it costing more to run it in one venue. If all the venues have four mats, and I assume they do, that is 4X as many venues 4X as much preparation and at least 2X as many officials, and at least 2X as many workers (I say 2X because you have to assume you would be running at least 6 mats instead of 4.... if not 8. ) so I can not imagine the cost being any more. If anything it would cost less.

3) The biggest problem obviously is finding a place with enough floor space. You only need a place to hold 6 mats. That is all you need. The way you do it is to add one day. so it would be run over 3 days instead of two. There is no reason it can't be run over the course of three days. Basketball runs 4 days.... wednesday till Sunday. So any argument for time out of school would simply be a bogus excuse by the state. We start plenty late and get done plenty early on the first day. Plus the time between finals and the medal rounds is rediculous. I think it was like 2-1/2 hours in class 4. No reason for that much down time. An hour should be plent of time to set up for finals. According to National Federation and the kids can get up to 2 pounds for consecutive day weigh-ins so they would be able to get another pound on that second weigh-in.

You could run all classes in three days on 6 mats. Run from about 8:00 in the morning till about 9:00 or 10:00 at night. That gives about 3 hours per class on 6 mats. On day one all classes could run two rounds, If not three. One frontside One Backside...at least. Each Class would have a time session. Example: class 1-2-3 would run from 8-11:00; class 4....11-2; class 5...2-5; class 6...5-8 (or you could do two classes at a time and make the time slots a little longer. On Day two from you would run quarterfinals and two backside rounds in the morning on three mats for 2 classes at a time. You could probably run it in 5 hours... at the most. So the 2 small classes would run from 8-1 and the larger classes would run from 1-6. That way class five and six who had to wrestle later don't have to get up as early. You would then come back and wrestle semi-finals for all classes at 6:30. The smaller two classes use 3 mats and the larger two classes use 2 mats. That would get you out at about 8:30 or 9:00 most likely. On Day three the only wrestlers left would be the medalists. In the morning all classes would have the same start time and use the mat format that was used for the semis with the two small classes on 3 mats and the 2 larger classes on 3 matsh. You would start around 9:00 and run consolation semi's as well as 3rd-6th placement matches. That would probalby be completed no later than 4:00. You could then come back and wrestle the finals at 5:00 and everyone is heading home by 7:30. The only grey area would be day two. I just kind of ball parked the times. If you had to you could start that third day at 8:00 in the morning and get the 3rd consalation round in to get into the consolation semi finals (the medal rounds).... But I am pretty sure you could ge that on day 2.

I know Missouri did this a couple years ago when they first went to four classes and were in the old hearns center. It actually worked pretty well.

This for mat would definitely work for all four of our classes. Financially it wouldn't cost any more. Of course you would be paying for three days instead of two, but you are paying for one location instead of 4. Cost wise it would probably be a little cheaper. The only argument that the state would be able to make is that kids would miss another day of school, but obviously that isn't a big deal as basketball uses four days to run their tournament.

Having one venue is much better for the sport and it is better for the kids. It makes it seem more like a big event and less like just another tournament. We wrestled in tournaments this year that had more mats and appeared bigger in terms of appearance than the state tournament. That is unfortunate for the kids. They deserve to be in front of a crow of THOUSANDS which is what it would be if it was in one location. Aside everything, (i.e. college scouts, financial reasons, etc.) the kids absolutely deserve it.

In your opinion

We could have thousands show up if each and every school could get fans to show up for thier wrestlers. Unfortunately most schools just dont have the following.

The only way I will ever agree that it should be in one location is that if each of the classes have their State tourney and then have one loaction for the Grand State that would cover all your points. In Kansas would be so easy to have 4 classes and 4 kids equaling a 16 man bracket. Also make those conso semi matches even more important at the individual state tourneys. One more week is not going to hurt anything.

This is the direction that we all should push to help our state get noticed on a national level.

To get thousands show up to an individual state tournament if each school had a better following is great in theory, but completely unrealistic. Pittsburg Kansas, right by Missouri is not going to draw a large number of people to Salina over 4 hours away.
Nor is Eureka or Caney or probably someone like Burlington going to draw a large number out to Hayes. It is just unfeasable to think that the average fan is going to drive four or five ours to watch a 6 minute match or two. To watch the whole tournament would require a night in a hotel and meals, plus tickets so you are looking at a $200+ weekend. The average family isn't going to drop $200+ dollars for a high school wrestling event. That is completely unrealistic. A Grand state would be nice, but it doesn't help the development of the sport as a whole. Part of the reason many kids stay out is the belief and goal that they can make it to state and place or win it. I know the argument well they have to work harder yada-yada-yada, but some kids just aren't talented enough or have the resoursces to gain the development as many kids. I travel all over the country with wrestling so I completely understand the comittment it takes, to be a state champ. But not everyone plans on making a careere out of it. However, you still need those kids for the better development of the sport.

This is kind of a different topic to an extent, but a kid in Great Bend Kansas or even Coffeyville Kansas is at a significant developmental dissadvantage in terms of off-season preparation. Mainly because of resourse opportunities. For example, in the larger cities (wichita, Topeka, KC) there are large populations which allows for effective tournaments to be run. It is also easier to find people who run large clubs... such as Akins. Those opportunites aren't as available for kid in less populated areas and the state regulations restrict so many things that often those kids can't workout. It's not like a baskettball court down the street. Mats are expensive. So most kids need a school to wokout at. Well they have to be supervised and it can't be by a coach, so what does that leave for the kid. I am not saying it's doable, just saying it is much more difficult. I know that there are kids who go up to KC or Tulsa from Southeast Kansas to get workouts in during the off-season. They drive almost 2 hours each way just for practice. My point to this is that by having four state tournaments it gives more kids a chance for the feeling of accomplishment. Having a Grand State is simply for bragging rights. It would possibly help get some college coaches in, but I don't think it would make much more of a difference than the split.... as far as the elite kids.... cause those kids are probably going to Fargo.