Class Power - On Paper
#116479
01/23/08 12:02 AM
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Svo69
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Using the Chief's most recent all-class rankings, I have assigned points for wrestlers ranked 1st - 5th place, as follows:
1st place ... 5 points 2nd place ... 4 points 3rd place ... 3 points 4th place ... 2 points 5th place ... 1 point
This is how each class fared:
class 5A ... 74 points class 6A ... 71 points class 4A ... 46 points class 321A 19 points
Class 5A had 9 wrestlers ranked # 1 Class 4A had 3 wrestlers ranked # 1 class 6A had 2 wrestlers ranked # 1
Class 6A had 8 wrestlers ranked # 2 Class 5A had 3 wrestlers ranked # 2 Class 321A had 2 wrestlers ranked # 2 Class 4A had 1 wrestler ranked # 2
Class 4A had 6 wrestlers ranked # 3 Class 6A had 4 wrestlers ranked # 3 Class 5A had 3 wrestlers ranked # 3 Class 321A had 1 wrestler ranked # 3
Class 6A had 5 wrestlers ranked # 4 Class 321A had 4 wrestlers ranked # 4 Class 4A had 3 wrestlers ranked # 4 Class 5A had 2 wrestlers ranked # 4
Class 6A had 7 wrestlers ranked # 5 Class 5A had 4 wrestlers ranked # 5 Class 4A had 3 wrestlers ranked # 5
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116486
01/23/08 01:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,433
Chief Renegade
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Nice job 69. The Dual matches showed the same order. Those half dozen Goddard wrestlers sure help 6A!
Eric Johnson
Acts 4:12
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#116498
01/23/08 02:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Svo69
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Bishop Carroll's contributions didn't hurt 5A either. I've long heard it said that 4A is superior to 6A. Doesn't much look that way this year and 6A is right on 5A's heels! I'm looking forward to the Chanute tournament when Goddard and Bishop Carroll meet up again:
1. Will Caldwell try and redeem himself against Arnold?
(doubtful ... he'll go 140 lbs).
2. Will Caldwell then wrestle Holden or Means?
(My guess would be Holden)
3. Will Fisher again be couting ceiling tiles at the end of his match with Detmer?
(if he (Fisher) avoids a pin, it is my understanding that it will be the first time this year (in Kansas) that Detmer hasn't stuck his opponent)
4. Will Boaz Beard finally surface, after injury?
(I'd sure like to see him join the frey. It seems like a pretty good tournament to begin preparation for state.
Hide and watch!
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116501
01/23/08 02:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,443
RichardDSalyer
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2. Will Caldwell then wrestle Holden or Means?
(My guess would be Holden) Since Caldwell, Houlden and Means are all teammates how do you propose this occur?
Richard D. Salyer
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: RichardDSalyer]
#116503
01/23/08 02:25 PM
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Svo69
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Good point! I guess what I meant to ask is: who will Goddard send against Arnold at 145 lbs?
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116504
01/23/08 02:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,433
Chief Renegade
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Bishop Carroll's contributions didn't hurt 5A either. I've long heard it said that 4A is superior to 6A. Doesn't much look that way this year and 6A is right on 5A's heels! I'm looking forward to the Chanute tournament when Goddard and Bishop Carroll meet up again:
1. Will Caldwell try and redeem himself against Arnold?
(doubtful ... he'll go 140 lbs).
2. Will Caldwell then wrestle Holden or Means?
(My guess would be Holden)
3. Will Fisher again be couting ceiling tiles at the end of his match with Detmer?
(if he (Fisher) avoids a pin, it is my understanding that it will be the first time this year (in Kansas) that Detmer hasn't stuck his opponent)
4. Will Boaz Beard finally surface, after injury?
(I'd sure like to see him join the frey. It seems like a pretty good tournament to begin preparation for state.
Hide and watch!
1. Caldwell will only go 140 to help the team. He's not dodging Arnold. 2. Caldwell wrestling Houlden or Means? In a challenge match? 3. As good as Detmer is. Don't count on Fisher getting pinned again. 4. Welcome back Boaz Beard!
Eric Johnson
Acts 4:12
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#116512
01/23/08 05:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 110
resslnfan
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Detmer pinned Hynick their first meeting last year, then lost a decision to him about a week or two later. When two really good wrestlers hook up you never know what might happen.
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: resslnfan]
#116514
01/23/08 06:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Svo69
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Chief, in response to your comment: "Caldwell will only go 140 to help the team. He's not dodging Arnold":
When they first wrestled, I thought Caldwell would win a close match - believing Caldwell's superior skill set would likely prevail against Arnold's tenacity and aggression. Now ... I'm not so sure that Caldwell is any more skillful than Arnold, nor, for that matter that Arnold is any more tenacious and/or aggressive than Caldwell. Too the contrary, I think that they are pretty evenly matched and on any given day, either wrestler could prevail and few would consider it an upset. I've always thought that it's really tough to beat an elite wrestler twice, so I would given Caldwell the nod on a rematch.
With that said, while not disagreeing with your comments, I'm not quite sure I understand the tactical mindset involved at the Chanute Tournament in moving Caldwell down to 140 lbs and probably moving Holden up to 145 lbs to face Arnold - save possible seeding at state (which I don't pretend to understand). To my way of thinking, allowing Caldwell to again face Arnold at Chanute would probably put more points on the board for Goddard as Arnold would probably have a rougher go against Caldwell as opposed to Holden - in fact, as mentioned earlier, it would not surprise me that Caldwell would win against Arnold and with Holden, the likelihood of a victory is diminished to an extent and there remains a possibility that Holden could even get pinned (no offense intended against Holden, who I have seen wrestle a number of times and who impresses me as a great wrestler and double tough young man. Now, all of this presumes (as I'm not familiar with the competition) that if Holden were allowed to wrestle at 140 lbs, Goddard would still be OK and get the same points, and maybe that is what I'm missing. Care to comment?
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#116516
01/23/08 07:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 292
master blaster
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I think your right about detmer and fisher, it should be more competitive the second time around, just curious if anyone knows if detmer has given up a takedown this year?
Who run Bartertown!
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116517
01/23/08 08:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,433
Chief Renegade
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Chief, in response to your comment: "Caldwell will only go 140 to help the team. He's not dodging Arnold":
When they first wrestled, I thought Caldwell would win a close match - believing Caldwell's superior skill set would likely prevail against Arnold's tenacity and aggression. Now ... I'm not so sure that Caldwell is any more skillful than Arnold, nor, for that matter that Arnold is any more tenacious and/or aggressive than Caldwell. Too the contrary, I think that they are pretty evenly matched and on any given day, either wrestler could prevail and few would consider it an upset. I've always thought that it's really tough to beat an elite wrestler twice, so I would given Caldwell the nod on a rematch.
With that said, while not disagreeing with your comments, I'm not quite sure I understand the tactical mindset involved at the Chanute Tournament in moving Caldwell down to 140 lbs and probably moving Holden up to 145 lbs to face Arnold - save possible seeding at state (which I don't pretend to understand). To my way of thinking, allowing Caldwell to again face Arnold at Chanute would probably put more points on the board for Goddard as Arnold would probably have a rougher go against Caldwell as opposed to Holden - in fact, as mentioned earlier, it would not surprise me that Caldwell would win against Arnold and with Holden, the likelihood of a victory is diminished to an extent and there remains a possibility that Holden could even get pinned (no offense intended against Holden, who I have seen wrestle a number of times and who impresses me as a great wrestler and double tough young man. Now, all of this presumes (as I'm not familiar with the competition) that if Holden were allowed to wrestle at 140 lbs, Goddard would still be OK and get the same points, and maybe that is what I'm missing. Care to comment?
The "helping the team" comment is due to Houlden not being able to make 140. I don't know how Ryan made 135 at Wellington, but I spoke to all three of them at the Bobcat and Caldwell would rather wrestle 145, but can make 140 easier than Ryan. I agree with the point scenario above. It's the weight issue that is keeping Tyler at 140 and Ryan 145. Fisher could easily make 145 also. He is walking around at 150.
Last edited by Chief Renegade; 01/23/08 08:01 PM.
Eric Johnson
Acts 4:12
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#116518
01/23/08 08:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Svo69
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#116525
01/23/08 09:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Svo69
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116526
01/23/08 10:25 PM
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Svo69
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Chief, when you comment: "Fisher could easily wrestle 145 also...", are you intimating that possibility? that'd be a great match as well, however, I got to admit ... For pure entertainment value,I was looking forward to a Caldwell/Arnold & Detmer/Fisher rematch.
I should also mention that even though I like to think that I understand the stratigic and/or tactical advantages in avoiding competition between elite wrestlers ... I nonetheless hold in great esteem those wrestlers who either willingly accept or seek out difficult opponents (tactics, records, ego, state considerations or anything else, be damned!) This year I recall reading that Kober (who, at that time, I've never even heard of, and in these threads,I was later justifiably asked: "Do you know anything about wrestling?" - if I had to respond, I would have had to have admitted: not all that much!) had bumped up to face Atticus Disney. He lost by a point. At that moment, I became a big fan of Kober! Last year, at Newton, Isenberg put his record on the line and confronted Arnold. He won. I was there (best wrestling match I ever saw) To this day, I root for Isenberg ... and always will! And still retain the upmost respect for Mitch Arnold's heart and considerable wrestling skills (to my knowledge, he never ducked no one). I could cite many more wrestlers in this category.
The lower ranked wrestlers do not enjoy this privilige. They have got to face all comers. Their coaches could care less about all of this other stuff. I've seen some of these "elete" wrestlers "toy" with inferior opponents. I don't like it! I never did! I never will! I root against them! Maybe they know who they are. The wrestlerx that I admire and respect are the wrestlers who stick a kid in short order ... rather than one who "toys" with his inferior opponent for as long as he can before he sticks him. Maybe thats just me.
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116527
01/23/08 10:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Svo69
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Chief: Do you buy into to your earlier remarks?
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116542
01/24/08 03:22 AM
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Chief Renegade
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Chief: Do you buy into to your earlier remarks? I was saying that Fisher is a light 152. He is also making room for Houlden at 145 to help the team.
Last edited by Chief Renegade; 01/24/08 03:24 AM.
Eric Johnson
Acts 4:12
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116546
01/24/08 10:22 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
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sportsfan02
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I should also mention that even though I like to think that I understand the stratigic and/or tactical advantages in avoiding competition between elite wrestlers ...
What "stratigic and/or tactical advantages"? To my knowledge I have never seen a coach or coaches keep two elite wrestlers from wrestling each other.
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Svo69]
#116555
01/24/08 03:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 79
Falcon Grappler
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"The lower ranked wrestlers do not enjoy this privilige. They have got to face all comers. Their coaches could care less about all of this other stuff. I've seen some of these "elete" wrestlers "toy" with inferior opponents. I don't like it! I never did! I never will! I root against them! Maybe they know who they are. The wrestlerx that I admire and respect are the wrestlers who stick a kid in short order ... rather than one who "toys" with his inferior opponent for as long as he can before he sticks him. Maybe thats just me."
Now, I might have to disagree some on this. I don't know if it's playing around or getting some work in. Especially in two day tournaments where you have to make weight twice. Sometimes you need that extra mat time to burn another 5/10ths or so. Now I am not big on being flagrant. But if you are just wrestling hard I think that's o.k.. However, what do I know?
[/quote]
Michael Church - The young one
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Falcon Grappler]
#116558
01/24/08 04:12 PM
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Posts: 79
Falcon Grappler
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Oh, and I know it's not the best 5a 6a combined team but I would not mind putting this group of City League Wrestlers up against anyone.
103 Penka Bishop Carroll 112 Deshazer - Heights 119 Keller - Bishop Carroll 125 Keller - Bishop Carroll 130 Maple - Heights 135 Nelson - Heights 140 Hagan - Kapaun - might have to bump up 145 Arnold - Bishop Carroll 152 Detmer - Bishop Carroll 160 Rosenhammer/Cody - Bishop Carroll 171 Truman - Kapaun 189 Page - Northwest 215 Caylor - Northwest 285 Heithieus - Northwest
This does not include the outskirts of Wichita - Valley Center, Goddard, Andale, Andover, Andover Central, Maize, etc.
Michael Church - The young one
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: sportsfan02]
#116559
01/24/08 04:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Log in
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I should also mention that even though I like to think that I understand the stratigic and/or tactical advantages in avoiding competition between elite wrestlers ...
What "stratigic and/or tactical advantages"? To my knowledge I have never seen a coach or coaches keep two elite wrestlers from wrestling each other. I saw a coach move his wrestlers around trying to gain points on the duel this last weekend. It had the potential to be a very close duel, so the coach (Team A) waited until the (Team B) showed which wrestler was wrestling that match. The (Team B) had brought a JV wrestler to wrestle some on the different duels for experience. (Team A) knew if they wrestled(Team B)straight up (varsity / varsity) on both matches, they (team A) would probably lose both matches. So once(Team B)showed they were wrestling both varsity wrestlers, they (Team A) bumped one up to try and win the 2nd match, knowing they would probably lose the 1st match anyways. The 1st match would of put 2 elite wrestlers against each other.
Last edited by Log in; 01/24/08 04:28 PM.
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Re: Class Power - On Paper
[Re: Falcon Grappler]
#116563
01/24/08 05:09 PM
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Posts: 10,433
Chief Renegade
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Oh, and I know it's not the best 5a 6a combined team but I would not mind putting this group of City League Wrestlers up against anyone.
103 Penka Bishop Carroll 112 Deshazer - Heights 119 Keller - Bishop Carroll 125 Keller - Bishop Carroll 130 Maple - Heights 135 Nelson - Heights 140 Hagan - Kapaun - might have to bump up 145 Arnold - Bishop Carroll 152 Detmer - Bishop Carroll 160 Rosenhammer/Cody - Bishop Carroll 171 Truman - Kapaun 189 Page - Northwest 215 Caylor - Northwest 285 Heithieus - Northwest
This does not include the outskirts of Wichita - Valley Center, Goddard, Andale, Andover, Andover Central, Maize, etc. A fine line-up Mike. However.... Even the rest of Kansas can beat this team in a dual at 9 weights. 103 - Vesta 112 - Slyter/Callahan 135 - Means 140 - Caldwell/Isenberg 160 - Bonewell/Thoman 171 - Beard 189 - Cotton 215 - Bach 285 - Disney/Zlatnik
Eric Johnson
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